[000:00:00;00] in fact, this is not an easy situation here, i think time was wasted, let's remember from 2014, when the moscow priests refused to bury our soldiers who died for ukraine , then it was necessary to react more harshly to me, but it is necessary to translate everything into a legal channel, several bills are lying in the verkhovna rada regarding the church we know ms. savchuk has registered many of our colleagues there. there is even such a supposedly neutral draft of the cabinet of ministers, but surely it should be put to a vote and then move on in the legal field, because the kyiv-pechersk lavra this is only the beginning. we have pochaiv nearby. by the way, there is historical confirmation that catholics also built there and have the right to claim

property. there are dozens of monasteries that today the monks are watching to see how the church leadership of the kyiv-pechersk lavra will behave. that is it is necessary to systematically solve this difficult story because, after all, several million parishioners are watching how this problem will be solved as a matter of the ministry of culture , it seems to me that they should have taken a more offensive position to attract and give legislative initiative, but the critical moment has definitely come to cut it off and forget it. but remember that you still need to do everything legally so as not to encourage the opening of such internal local fronts, because it is actually dangerous at this time. i think that at the next session meetings we will

consider these draft laws because the time has come , and here it is important not to provoke people to give the parishioners an answer that it was law enforcement officers working. it seems to me that there is little information in the public domain, because we know that they were deported from transcarpathia with russian passports from chernihiv oblast and ultimately from kyiv, the society and passers-by of this church should know that part of the fsb agents are still there, and according to some intelligence data, in the event that, god forbid , kiev is taken over, the headquarters of the russians should have been located there, precisely in the kyiv-pechersk lavra, and they had to go there part of the landing party landed, so it is necessary to raise this story as well, who was supposed to meet the trail with salt, looking at such footage

, it does not look like someone really wanted to meet the russian aggressor with bread and salt in the center of orthodoxy in our capital, you it is correct that everyone is looking at them, but they are behaving quite defiantly, in particular, metropolitan pavlo is the so-called pasha mercedes, because what they are doing, what actions they are taking, what they are saying , what they are saying, and they are not going to leave there they say that they are going to be sued. at the moment, the court where they turned did not open their cases. that is why this trial did not start. therefore , we will continue to monitor what is happening , but the truth is also that those parishioners who were there at this meeting, whom they also saw journalists very often say very strange things for which, uh, during the war and even not during the war, we should not be interested in law enforcement agencies, in particular, the security service of ukraine, let's look at one of these cuts

, which uh, shook the society of ukrainians, who are adequate, who watch all this and they ask themselves the question: what to do with the parishioners of the kyiv orthodox church of the moscow patriarchate because of the fact that they are yanukovych, look for reasons . sown, what was the first thing, the ukrainians bombed, i'm sorry, and which don't need to be told donbass didn't want poroshenko , so they trashed the maidan everything is true in ukraine what's good maidan yes, i was a replacement in ukraine, i chose my path on the maidan to the european union, well, the european will not

remember any europe remember, we will be. what do you think about what to do with the parishioners of this church, how to convince them, this is a large number of ukrainians, i am not a judge and certainly not pasha mercedes to point them out because they continue to listen to him so much about the moscow ones, but he is the only one one of the many fragments of very fanatical statements that we see there, in no way do i want to condemn the faith of ordinary people who simply believe, but all of us, including them , i uh, believe me, i will not show off, but i will remind you of one phrase that is in the bible many times it is indicated and so on, don't create an idol for yourself, and faith is not related to personalities or idols

, full stop. the legal part, well the church of the moscow patriarchate, in fact, someone somewhere tried to dig into the documents, and it was registered, but it was not completely correct. there are a lot of questions about the registration itself, so if they are going to go to court, i want to see which court will accept this case. the court will take a side here. that is, what we are talking about here, but on the other hand, let's look at it as a picture that is similar to the behavior of the entire kremlin gang, because they take away things from the kyiv lavra, they take away furniture, chairs icons of jewels, they are now trying to gain time as much as possible, and at the same time they are trying to play this kind of story , we will not go anywhere, we will beat you to death after these words. i do not know what to talk about, that is, what example do the so-called clergymen of

moscow show the ukrainian community , what is this about? say if they do not support the thesis or belief that muscovy attacked ukraine, the first thing is how to talk about the fact that they somehow said there, well, in one word , they are not enemies, or is there a muscovite god, how he is the head of the moscow church in moscow, i don't remember thank god he is not an enemy and when the direct phrase sounds kill ukrainians all nazis there and so on nationalists and so on what is this a call to murder is this at all there is no way it can be connected no with by faith than by any religion , no matter what it is in principle, because what you asked to do with the people themselves is to show only another example and act according to the law, if the law is passed, if a decision is made, it must be carried out

regardless of whether you are a religious person or not a person of faith is not an intervention in any activity of the church itself, or oppression of a certain religion in any case . say traitors and those who help the mozkovites on the territory of ukraine should not occupy any premises and should not use them as some centers for agitation against ukraine , god forbid centers for storing weapons or hiding those traitors who were later licked , who licked not only somewhere where we saw it. there were many cases in the press, including in lviv , not in church organizations, but in garage cooperatives where traitors hid in separate conspiratorial apartments. there were so many of them

that there would certainly not be enough means for all mass media to cover all of these events, therefore this struggle must simply continue with the people, it is necessary to speak in plain language and give them the opportunity to see the other side, in which, i repeat once again, there is a letter the law and there is a normal human attitude where we do not go on to violate human rights , that is, there can be absolutely no use of force against these or other believers, there are other legal ways to achieve our goals, we are looking for you andriyya, glory to ukraine, this class, i know that you are in kyiv for sure watch what is happening around the kyiv-pechersk lavra and why is it so difficult to evict these people

from there, first of all, you know yesterday i was on the territory of the kyiv-pechersk lavra and talked with those adapters of the moscow patriarchate who i was there and i had such very strange feelings somewhere i've seen it all before 10 i've felt it all the same habits the same conversations the same narratives the same people the same slogans and i realized where i saw it all in 2013 mariinsky park in kyiv antimaidan this is just a reincarnation of the anti-maidan and i don't have any other words. the same threats are thrown at military camouflages. yesterday, one paid-up clique tried to rush in. they shouted that her husband serves in the armed forces. i began

to ask very simple questions, where does he serve in which to the military unit in which direction voyu is, then another woman came up and said that there is no husband there. she has a husband, it’s just a lie, it’s a fake, and the moscow patriarchate tried to put a canopy there. adapts of the moscow patriarchate, but there is also an imported er, imported adapts, in particular, there is such an infamous ms. victoria kohanovska, er, a person, well, it is someone, there are rumors that she works for the money of a former people's deputy and someone in the russian orthodox church, vadym novinsky mekhasyana is in a white jacket, now you can see her on the screen er running there er screaming louder than anyone and trying to get into all the tv cameras by a strange coincidence, this person appears in different corners of ukraine at various parishes who want to transfer

from the moscow patriarchate to the orthodox church of ukraine, she calls herself a topographer from ivano-frankivsk , a parishioner from kyiv, or a parishioner from somewhere in the poltava region, but in fact, a person lives in kamianets-podilskyi and simply by order of the patriarchate plays the role of a human rights defender the role of some parishioner who gets some things done. that's why everything is a complete fake. why is it so difficult to evict? well, i know the name . it's very simple. an analogy comes to mind . imagine that you have a house or apartment that you rented out 30 years ago. for rent, er, well, it would seem at first glance to intelligent people, maybe even to believers. over the course of these 30 years, they demolished all the walls in your house, broke the furniture, changed the locks on the doors , you come and say listen, you have violated

the terms of the lease agreement, let's move out from here they say, well, it’s so comfortable here. yes, we already feel at home here as heathers. something similar is happening with the moscow patriarchate in the kyiv-pechersk lavra. it’s called occupation, and it’s clear that there is no point in trying to negotiate or seek some kind of compromise with the occupiers, but thanks to tom it is obvious that the representative of the ministry of culture, the representatives of the reserve, simply do not fully understand who they are dealing with. the moscow patriarchate is not interested and they will inhabit them, they will not to populate, i will tell you, i was in kyiv for two weeks, i watched how the representatives of the moscow patriarchate transported things from kyiv to the pechersk lavra by truck, they took them to the outskirts of kyiv to the warehouses of avangar, which this vadim allegedly also removed new malsyan products from

they prepared, they rented an alleged sanatorium , their seminarians will leave, their er monks will leave now for er pavel lebedya here is this under-saction citizen who is actually better known as your mercedes according to the passport of petro lebedya he received a directive from moscow just escalate the conflict in the center of kyiv, just create a place of tension, and their task is just to destabilize the situation on tv in the capital, in the rear city, in the rear of the armed forces of ukraine , you can’t find another explanation here, here it is, in fact, the reserve commission, the ministry of culture should work under security the security services of ukraine , the national police, must provide security for civil servants who have to fulfill their mission, and it is obvious that we

saw today when 30 representatives of the special unit knitted beret e of the moscow patriarchate was pushed and pushed out by the commission of the ministry of culture and the reserve eh this is not happening the police must ensure order and in fact we have seen it is also obvious the reluctance of representatives of the reserve to fulfill their mission and evict the moscow patriarchate from the territory of the reserve i remind you that the kiev-pechery lavra is 100% of the premises and the temples of ikelia and pechery are all 100% the property of the ukrainian people, there is no need to spread the myth that the moscow patriarchate is something built the moscow patriarchate, er, during this whole time, it really built, new buildings were built, restaurants were built, hotels were built, mafias were built, and the commission discovered these 36 new objects . i just then have a logical question

. during these 30 years , when the moscow patriarchate donated to the government the kiev-pechers lavra our with you shrine, the shrine where the remains of our great reverends of kyiv-pechers rest where did the government look these 30 years when the moscow patriarchate was just, well, forgive me, committed crimes on the territory of the kyiv-pechersk lavra, it all happened thanks to and with the approval of the ministry of culture , it all happened with the approval of the reserve well, i don't believe that the reserve didn't notice that pavlo lebid built 36 illegal objects on the territory of the kyiv-pechersk lavra, now the reserve has to correct all these uh its shortcomings and by the way uh in the end with this eviction of the moscow patriarchate from the lavra

organizational conclusions should be adopted and which officials should be punished who for 30 years , well, i don't know if the law enforcement agencies were to prove whether they were corrupt or not , but allowed the under-secretary pavlo lebedyu, one of the brothers of the kiev-pechersk lavra, to destroy the international memory a unesco site to destroy a 10th-century monument in the center of kyiv . thank you andriy kovalev, as full as possible, although higher. but in the end, you answered all the questions in one go andrii kovalev - historian, political scientist, religion expert, spokesman of the general staff of the armed forces of ukraine, he was in touch with us, there are replicas in our studio, melnychuk, then petenko, you know, it is now spreading through the network there are a lot of videos where supposedly a large number of parishioners of the so-called moscow patriarchate defend this church, but this is not entirely true. we

forget that in just one year, in the last year alone , more than 650 communities have moved to the ukrainian orthodox church and this process continues every day, that is, people are aware of the threat from this agent network and massively all over ukraine are switching to ukrainian confessions and we see the results, we understand why they are so outraged, what should be done with the moscow patriarchate. the entire leadership must be checked, because there we will find 100% a lot of agents, there is a registered svobodov bill, we have one deputy

in the parliament, and oksana savchuk registered a bill prohibiting moskovsky patriarchy, they want to consider something for a very long time. i hope that it will be voted after all. i am convinced that ukrainians will still be able to see and understand the threat to themselves of this agent network and where does this entire agent network come in? the priests of the moscow patriarchate will be sitting behind bars. this is another church. many people forget that this moscow patriarchate itself was created by stalin. in essence, this church is an appendage to the government and a division of the nkvd. it was created from the very beginning. it is the only church that

was supported in the atheistic soviet union, everyone understood that after the confession in this church, the priests wrote reports to the relevant authorities, so ukrainians ultimately understand the process. the main thing is for the authorities to answer these questions and not be late with the correct decisions. in fact, it was created and restored by the moscow patriarch in 1944 years of the second world war, then among the living there remained metropolitan serhiy, who was lit up as the patriarch and then the metropolitan of lectures. that is, it was a state church, but it was created during the war by joseph stalin remembered that he was a graduating seminarian of the theological seminary, uh, everything started uh, really, you have to look very deeply at the root, as kuzma said, at least in 1686, when the moscow state forcibly attracted and

liquidated the kyiv metropolitanate, actually annexing it to moscow by bribing it, and these are the official sources of the then the patriarch of constantinople was a hostage of the ottoman empire , and after that the kyiv metropolitanate lost its independence, and now that i am listening to metropolitan pavlo, he lists all the priests and monks who are buried there and ends up being the last monk buried there in the 20s who fought against the leptiv region he says so the answer to the question is that the kiev-pechersk lavra is the last stronghold of moscow of orthodox moscow here in kyiv and in ukraine as a whole, if they leave it, well, that's the end ideologies of moscow, orthodoxy here, you understand, they cannot lose it. therefore, it is obvious that they are trying now to do what they are doing, holding on , so to speak, to the legal component of this issue , dragging it out, showing an ideological

picture and an informational picture for themselves that it is happening here at pechersk farbakh in the city of kyiv. i have another question. in fact, not so many communities have moved from the uoc to the upptsu . officially, 650 have only recently moved there. and why in the last 30 years? this is a rhetorical question, but at least in the last 10 years there since 2014 during the war period so when everything was clearly laid out on the aphids who are the hierarchs of the ukrainian orthodox church of the moscow patriarchate why was there no acceleration of this transition so when naryshkin he said there, according to the sources we hear, putin should wait because the agency is not ready yet , and so on. you call about 800 people agents in the direct corridors of the government of ukraine. they were there. they worked for what they harmed. the security service of ukraine on the authorized person’s case, which was stalled and transitioned even last year. in order that for the past money during the war, they

were dismissed from their positions not so long ago. it was artificially the ukrainian government of the ministry of vidasa, the security service of ukraine. people there who were agents influence of the kremlin until the last time until 2022, they did everything so that how and how uh people who obviously uh shared this stress on the ukrainian orthodox church so that it would remain so where it is and it is obvious that we met with those difficulties a which when this agency did everything to prevent this from happening, i believe that we need to uh-uh now calm down and move absolutely into the legal plane and finish the legal one, there was a court that did not satisfy the claim there or now , the appeal uh-uh means metropolitan pavlo uh-uh it is the economic court of the city of kyiv, he recognized it at the same time, the brothers of the monks

are slowly starting to move there to the monastery of the orthodox church of ukraine sooner or later it will happen, it is obvious that sooner rather than later, so i think there is no way around it, we just don't it is necessary to allow such an information picture that would well, let's say yes, we are still the right state, so obviously, despite the state of war , well, no one has canceled the troops, and the state is not separated from religion. therefore, obviously , by legislative means, we will logically reach the logical conclusion in the number of what there there will also be an orthodox monastery of the orthodox church of ukraine and with the same possibly a part of the monks who today belong to the monastery of the ukrainian orthodox church, which will simply move, which are really just religious people who do not profess there the late zlossiev until today's metropolitan pavlo and who are , let's say, direct supporters of the moscow patriarchate and the same will apply to the obvious oven and pochaivskaya and pochaivskaya

lavra in the ternopil region because it is obvious and i agree with my colleagues that if historically look at the root, and it was built by the ukrainian greek-catholic church of the basilians, then they should pass to the historical owners or even share the issue together with the orthodox church of ukraine. it's only a matter of time, let 's complete this legal part to the end so as not to give our enemy informational fodder to spin these negative shots, what are they want to ask you questions from your polish experience on their tv channels. i would like to hear your perspective on what is happening in our country, because it is essentially a very well-known fact that when in in the 80s of the last century, this protest movement of solidarity was born in poland, and when its communists, i.e., the polish at that time , on instructions from moscow, tried to suppress it, including the national church , it played a very important role, which took the position of protesting people, and therefore during

the first stage, when, as it were, it was possible to suppress these uprisings, and many of those arrested were later released, and in general, there is an opinion that , in particular, because the russian church did not manage to penetrate into poland in any way, they did not were not able to influence anything there. that is, it was also a very important element of why you succeeded and why we did not succeed for many years, and now it seems like a big question , you can answer it for a very long time when it comes to the singer solidarity and the independent movement, of course, in poland, a big role was played by the catholic church or the roman catholic church headed by such a certain hierarch e-e stefan vyshensky who was a coercion of poland this primate is the first among equals e-e he was a cardinal head of the church from the 48th

year to the 81st and a big role cardinal played karl wojtyła, who sat in krakow and was elected pope in 1978, and it really was like that when martial law was introduced in poland, and martial law meant stricter measures, much stricter measures like martial law in ukraine. that is , all any there were no trade unions, parties then, 5,000 people were interned, imprisoned. well, we need prison , but to separate camps, and then the church played a very big role, first of all, as a certain uh, well, a voice that spoke on behalf of the society of this enslaved society the pope came for the first time in 83, then in 87, then he came in 91

, i think he was, or i am wrong about this , the hare was there three times during the 80s, and he really spoke on behalf of he spoke on behalf of polish society among others gdańsk came to gdańsk and said that no one canceled the word solidarity solidarity is a big word and that is, everyone then understood that the pope protects both the people and society and there is such a well-known story that the dictator of poland was a general in the eyes jaruzelsky black glasses, well, that's why he was compared to pinochet, papex ​​tape, yarozetskyi well, it's the head of state to the head of state meets the head of state , so you're roselsky, who was a general, a combat general, and what was a combat officer , his knees were shaking and it was visible because you weren't shaking your pants, so he was afraid of the pope, that is, uh, poland won, the church in poland

selected a very large one, by the way, in view of the fact that poland was essentially, uh, with a small percentage of national minorities, uh, there was a church widespread and popular most of the population 95% considered themselves to be catholics despite the fact that the communist party had 3 million members and yet 36 million members did not. that is , almost 10%, and 95% said that they were catholics , that is, the power of the catholic church was extremely extremely great uh, that's the main difference between ukraine , ukraine

, japan, confessional yes, in fact, that is, many confessions democratic instead. i want when it comes to the problems of the orthodox church in ukraine and what is happening now, well, i want to tell you that there is also the prosian autocephalous orthodox church, whose believers are many ukrainians, citizens of ukraine, and now after february 24 another appeared the problem with ukrainian refugees or what are they called migrants? because in reality they themselves do not like them and the state does not recognize them as refugees, this is a special legal status for ukrainians themselves . the dnipro state does not consider them refugees to be clear, they are temporary people, but hundreds of thousands of ukrainians began