[000:00:00;00] for me and for you, watch and listen to an interesting interview, my colleague yuriy fizar spoke with an outstanding american historian, writer, professor of yale university, specialist in the history of eastern europe and, in particular, the history of ukraine, poland , russia, timati snyderm, the author of many famous books, and his thoughts about today about today about the war about the prospects of ukraine and russia it is worth listening so listen so let's watch the interview of yuriy fizar with timiti snyder greetings my name is yuriy fizar and today's guest is from around the world a famous historian, a professor at yale university, a professor of history, a person who helps ukraine a lot and tells the truth about what is happening in our country, tells the world about the pro-russian war , to let the world know

, timothy snyder, congratulations. has been going on for a year can we at least try to draw some intermediate conclusions about it and i'm not talking about the situation on the battlefields i'm talking about the perception of the country in western europe in the west well and maybe in russia, if we start from the west, the way people see ukraine has definitely changed in every society as an important country whose past they are actively interested in, and this is something new from a political point of view, the question of whether ukraine can survive has transformed into the question of whether ukraine can win. and this is completely different the matter that concerns russia, i think that we are dealing with a war that the russian leadership chose deliberately and cannot abandon it

, they will continue it until the end, will this be the end of the war in ukraine or is this the end of the regime but they will fight to the end, should putin start to be afraid now, i would like us to talk about the latest decision of the international criminal court in the netherlands, this court passed a resolution on the arrest warrant for putin, should putin be afraid of this decision , or maybe he is sitting somewhere in the kremlin behind the kremlin walls and just laughs at it. so, the most important thing about the warrant is that it reminds everyone of the importance of the law. by repeating itself in ukraine, russia violated essentially all possible forms of international law and in this way it threatens not only ukraine and its people, but also the very idea

of ​​the existence of international order, too , regardless of whether putin will be arrested or not. all of us regarding putin, who is he probably not worried that he will be arrested, but the fact that he is condemned in the west does not impress him, why why? they send their children to study there as a source of internal prestige, the west serves as an example for them how to dress, talk, make television and that is why they do not care putin will never forget this, nor will russian history forget our very opinion that you are blocked from entering germany and to others - 132 countries cannot help but worry , however, how it will be interpreted within the framework of russian

domestic policy is even more important, there is a lot of reason not to believe that putin's regime must come to an end for russians, this is another reason to make sure that their country will not be able to help a leader who cannot travel who many people consider a war criminal but sir you know do you really think that he will be arrested that he can be arrested for example in germany if he decides to go there yes yes but he is not going to germany yes i know but if you can arrest trump we all face a common problem for someone and the laws are written if we care about order we must firmly say no one can be above the law is the law above all for all of us so can they arrest trump i hope so can they arrest putin can they arrest putin do you hope so it

depends on us if we say no this will never happen then it will be they often say that dictators always win but this not so charles taylor was tried in the class of the beggar tried in the gas dictators don't always win regardless of whether putin wins in this particular case we have to say that he should stand trial that we must try to bring him to justice and we will call on the germans to do it. by the way, a very important moment for the history of germany itself for its self-esteem is that they publicly declared that they are ready to arrest putin. this is actually quite a big transition and i really hope, like all ukrainians, that one day putin will be arrested and he will appear in front of himself and i really hope, like all ukrainians, that one day putin will be arrested and tried in order to explain what is happening in russia now, you even invented a special term schizofascism in relation to that

i have two questions about this. first, can you tell me more about this? what is the difference between schizofascism and simple fascism, and did this russian schizofascism somehow evolve during the year after the start of the full-scale invasion ? that there is already a russian thinker who uses the term schizofascism , which i did not know about because i invented it , what is in question so, schizofascism means that i am a fascist, but i say that you are a fascist, this term helps us understand what russia is, i.e. two fascists talking about fascism so fascists talking about fascism that russia in russian means nazis or fascist means my enemy , that is, not a russian, there is no meaningful content, so the word fascism or nazi will come in the west, we think ok, you say about concentration camps, a one-party state and all these things, but in the official russian political language it simply means the enemy of the one who i don't

like today, it's all those who are against us. that's what it means for people who are actually fascists like oleksandr dukhin or prokhanov, they have no problem calling those who are liberals or democrats fascists, because for them it simply means that you are against russia, you and my enemy, whom i have chosen for myself today, and this is important because, in fact, some fascists are constantly looking for and talking about their enemies, someone should think about it a bit, the fact that fascists call you fascists actually means that they themselves are fascists , when i read about this term schizofascism, i immediately thought of the possible term one day, schizo putinism will appear. i am now i will explain what i mean. when i read russian newspapers on the internet, when i watch russian propaganda tv channels , it seems to me that these people consider putin the only leader

who can save russia. they think of him as the son of god who came down to earth in order to save and liberate them. lead to russian prosperity and some russian light, don't you think that one day this term may also appear under putinism, i don't think, although you make a very interesting remark about the difference between ukraine and russia, and i would said about ukrainian political education i have been coming to ukraine for a long time and let's face the truth twice this idea that someone will save us was very common in 2004 in 2005 it was a good idea we will get the person we need and everything will be fine for you but if you think so in reality there will be no democracy and you will think that everything is fine as you said it will be a savior the right person of a leader in fact you need a mother you don’t know you had kravchuk you had kuchma you had yushchenko

yanukovych you had poroshenko and you have zelensky, you had all these different people, they reflect different moments of your history . has been in power for 20 years is terrible for russians because it makes them think that it's not about the system, it's not about the rules and it 's not about the elections , it's only about the one and only putin the savior. you will think about politics for yourself constantly, the vertical of power and this made russia the country it is, western leaders often talk about things that do not end at the negotiating table, continuing what you said about schizo-fascism, do you think it is likely or possible for us ukrainians to sit down

at the negotiating table table with s schizo-fascists let me answer this question more broadly world war ii ended because the germans lost the algerian sanctions war ended because the french lost the french venda war china ended because they we lost our war in afghanistan and iraq ended because we lost and it ends when people lose there may be negotiations or there may not be we lost the war in vietnam and then we went to negotiations, that is, first someone has to lose someone has to lose and that a basic point that is often forgotten in the west maybe there will be negotiations and although i don't think so but maybe they will be already after the victory of ukraine if russia can then they definitely won't be if you continue to fight they

won't be either the only way to negotiations is the victory of ukraine to sit at the table with these people or not is your decision even with schizo-fascists history has already seen this if you decide to negotiate you do not choose with whom you will do it but it will be your sovereign decision which you will later make taking into account historical models and you these historical models know very well what future awaits the country that we now unfortunately call the russian federation. to answer this question, i will do what you cannot do. i will ask what the real interest is. russia i think that putin is not really a terrible geopolitician, it is terrible that people look at him as a leader with a certain charisma i don't understand it because i don't feel it people think that he made russia great or this whole

anti-western movement that they started around 2000 or maybe before georgia cyber attack and not estonia, the invasion of ukraine in 2014, this whole movement against the west from the point of view of russia's survival, the fight for sovereignty makes no sense, because if russia is going to exist and be strong , if it really believes in a multipolar world well, which is often talked about. this means that they should be one of those poles , to say well, we will cooperate with the west. and sometimes with china, but they pushed the west away. second, by invading ukraine, there were so many people who wanted to cooperate with russia. this means that now they depends on china and the process has already started driver i mean that now before our eyes russia falls into a certain dependence on china they talk about sovereignty but in fact they are increasingly involved in

dependence on the celestial they are dependent on china every day of the war in ukraine will only increase this dependence, that is, every day when they bring their soldiers from east asia to die in ukraine, they make china stronger, supply china with everything at chinese prices, they make china stronger, the chinese just watch and enjoy all this. so where is russia going? does it become dependent on china yes, that is exactly the direction they have chosen i think the secondary question is who actually controls the resources in the russian far east because russia's wealth depends on moscow's wealth moscow's wealth depends on the resources located in the russian far east who will control these resources in the long term moscow will end or someone else or maybe the collapse of russia so i am again doing what is not expected of ukrainians but if i thought about the future of russia i would try to stop the war already today putin was replaced by someone else would try

to find a way to talk with the west about the withdrawal of russian soldiers from ukraine this would be all because when all the russian soldiers left ukraine then it would be possible to say that even putin made a mistake, but we want to start all over again and the west should have said so because we withdrew all our soldiers from ukraine and then russia had time to surrender as a sovereign country because it could maneuver sacks the measures themselves i think that putin is actually burying russian sovereignty and the longer he fights in ukraine the worse it is for russia itself you have already said that putin is a bad geopolitician but what was the biggest mistake he made when he first thought about the beginning a full-scale invasion of ukraine and then when he decided to do it we are now in lviv in the world we are in the village of austria one of

the great austrian writers was robert musil, he wrote the book a man without properties a wonderful character from this book italian diplomats say in diplomacy never do that what do you want to do and if you feel that you want to do something, don't do it, just don't do it, don't do it , a person better understood what could happen, what consequences his actions would have with age , after reading bad literature, he and everything else more caught up in his own ideas i think that the invasion of ukraine was what he wanted to do in this way he violated the basic rule of international politics don't do what you want to do i think that he wanted to invade ukraine and it will either be a disaster for the pond

of the whole of russia and will also destroy his reputation. if he had done something else, he would have been remembered in a completely different way, but this last year, nadiyka, will etch putin in history, but isn't his reputation already destroyed, you know. everything could be even worse, right? i can tell the russian leaders what to do, in the end i don't know, no one knows what people close to putin think about this. but with every day he is in power , the situation is getting worse, i don't think we can change it, someone else has to do it , maybe one day someone will be able to let's talk about the ukraine of the future, the future after the war, after our joint victory with allies and partners, what kind of country do you think ukraine could become, this is a great

question, let's consider the positive points in ukraine during the war, well, first of all, this is civil society and horizontal cooperation, this is what you should continue , because it is a way for citizens to believe in themselves that they can do something for a free ukraine - it is very important that they do not believe that they somehow implement changes, that they are not helpless, that they are not paranoid, that they do not believe in conspiracy theories, that they can act themselves and this is very good, another very important point is that these are successful elections even during the war, and regardless of the personalities of poroshenko and zelensky, it is very important that poroshenko lost and zelensky won you had a change of power during the war and all this is very good in terms of what we should worry about in the future so this is how to rebuild ukraine and the danger for you is that we give too much money to one person we don't this should be done by us and america

, the west and so on, we should find all these hundreds of non-governmental organizations to help them, we should cooperate with all regions, with all cities and towns , helping them here is not about ukraine, but because, as history shows, it is worth doing decentralized we do not want ukraine to find itself in a situation where the central government suddenly if we manage to do this, i can already see and visualize a ukraine that will be better than ukraine in 2021, better with public transport, better city squares, better kharkiv, although i really like kharkiv with modern cities, roads, all of this can be achieved if

the reconstruction is carried out correctly. countries, and europe needs you because they need a project, they need a story about themselves , a new, fresh story, their story about themselves is connected with 1945, but they need a newer story, they need a success that they can call their success, and this success must be post-war ukraine to become ukraine is great mr. sniper my last question to you today is what will be the historical responsibility of russia not putin but russia for everything it did during the war this is a great question because i believe that responsibility is a key term in international politics and this is connected with what you said about the law , maybe we want putin to be arrested, but it is important for us to say that you are responsible, we believe that you are responsible for everything we believe in responsibility, but one of

russia's problems is a whole the culture of impunity, they do something bad and then something even worse , and so they stop believing in these rules and we will not be punished, of course in every country a person tries to break the rules, but that's another matter if we say that there are no rules that nothing matters and this is exactly the situation russia is in and that is why, firstly, it is very important that russian assets are used for the restoration of ukraine, for this we need to find a way and secondly, from the point of view of historical responsibility, and i am not saying now as a historian, people should think about how russian history was written and how we all thought about russia because of this war was that many of us believed for too long a certain story about what russia really was then russia invaded ukraine before we

understood that the story about russia that we believe does not allow us to understand some other historical realities ukraine is one of these historical realities responsibility - it is also our own responsibility for the reconstruction of european history or the history of events in such a way that ukraine fits into it and most interestingly that european or western this will make the story much more interesting and make much more sense. i don't want to talk only about the russians. there are things that we should also do, but then people should be judged. there should be long, boring trials. processes in which people are found guilty and then it will be possible to talk about relations with the russians , we are all united by a common problem we look at history and say that we have always been innocent, that we have never done anything bad ukrainians can say that americans can also say that russia

shows us what happens when you take this to the extreme how are you putin and putin's astra j is that russians are always innocent you are always guilty someone else has always been germans austrians jews brussels berlin, washington, it was always someone else, come here, the language of comradebentrop never existed. we have never done anything wrong. russia is decent. now i will talk about things that do not depend on us. but in order for the renewal of russia to take place, they will have to admit that there is a concept of historical responsibility. that the word responsibility is very important. but we can't force someone to be responsible , we can try to hold others accountable and say that there is a law and you

, no, we don't have a lot of money, we can do it with russia, but in the end the responsibility is also something internal, something that needs to be felt. we can't do it instead of russia, but we can do it for ourselves . well, it was timothy snyder , a professor of history at the lille university . they talked with him, obviously, about ukraine, about russia , about the past, about the future, and obviously about victory. see you soon. thank you, yuriy fizruk - this there was an interview we are recording with my colleague yuriy fizor and with a famous historian and writer, we are her professor of the university of yerevan, timatisnyder, who specifically works a lot on the history of ukraine, russia, poland , in general, central eastern europe. i liked it, there were a lot of important

things, and now we will also talk about international considers politics more closely related to ukraine, we will involve pavlo klimkin, a diplomat, the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in the years 14-19, they fell , i congratulate you. this strange move that russia resorted to, the prospect of placing nuclear ammunition on the territory of belarus, why do you think lukashenko will transfer nuclear weapons and more, because so far, in fact, as they explained to me today, they are not there yet, please . really, i think the question should be in a different way why is putin doing this and it looks like political blackmail, it looks like an attempt to somehow grab the ears or the hair like vonhausel to pull himself closer to the americans

putin is not just saying that the americans are still tactical nuclear weapons are placed in europe, so he really wants to be on the same level, i think that putin most likely discussed this with the chinese leader during his last visit, because in belarus it is not only a zone of russian protectorate, but also of indirect chinese influence there is a lot of speculation about whether lukashenka is trying to raise his weight in this way, not physically, of course, because he does not have a political one simply as a dictator , but also trying to lay a giant

slalom in the matter of direct participation in the war. no less than putin, uh, 100%, who wants to balance with the americans, as if to feel on the same level. i think that this year ’s collection is actually a political matter and we take a tactical, strategic point of view , placed in absolutely any others. that is , it is absolutely global political blackmail with the rise and we have certain problems with communication. we hear so intermittently now . perhaps we can redial p to klimkin and then talk . of the russian federation, because in fact lukashenko leased his country to talk about some kind of sovereignty to belarus now it is not necessary and the only plus is that lukashenko is there, or

he does not want it or it simply did not happen, the teams do not send their thread, already a large army to the war against ukraine well but transfers its territory in order for tactical nuclear weapons to be brought there, there is a reaction of the ministry of foreign affairs of ukraine, er, the ukrainian foreign ministry calls on mr. pavlo, i am just now voicing this question to you, the ukrainian foreign ministry reacted, well, actually there were many reactions and in the white house and in uh, jose borel, as they are diplomats of the european union, made his statement, but made two, and the ukrainian foreign ministry calls for the convening of the un security council because of nuclear weapons in belarus. on such a platform as the united nations , please, you are right, nothing will change, but to raise this issue in the middle of nowhere. well, although i think it is a helpless impotent structure, but

nevertheless it is there. so far, there is nothing to replace it and to discuss repression and get a forum is actually worth what we need to do first of all is to talk with our allies behind the americans with the european union about the fact that after the publication of this decision and in particular after the start of its implementation , new sanctions are needed, mr. baryl has already started talking about this from the americans. i haven't heard this yet. well, of course there are sanctions that are the same for russia and belarus, there are different ones, there are specifics of the countries . but i think that leaving it without a real escalation of sanctions means simply let it pass like a blow and we can't do that neither we nor the west well, in the organization of the united nato, he said the organization of the poor , oh lord, to the north atlantic alliance, i say in

nato, they said that russia's nuclear rhetoric is irresponsible, and also well, there were statements of various states of the relevant ministries, nuclear weapons in belarus, the threat to european security is taking its toll, statements have been made , now the main thing is that i want to ask you now as a professional diplomat, this is not today's news , but it is still, in principle , continuous, as they say. talk about the chinese tour, why are the european leaders, this is the prime minister of spain, if i am not mistaken, the president of france, together with the president of the european commission, are planning to visit beijing and talk to sizi pini, in your opinion , what is the reason for this and with what message will they go to china please. and i would like to start mr. vasyl with another visit to china, which in my opinion is even more important, and this is a visit that starts tomorrow, this visit of the brazilian president, a well-known and very

charismatic leftist who has already proposed to create a so-called community of peace with the chinese brazil has its own version of the so-called peace plan, it has not been formally made public, but it is known that the brazilians are working on it and they are going to discuss it with all the calls to us and whether they will agree or not, and the visit of the brazilian president will last only imagine more than five days in fact, a lot depends on you not the western world now regarding the visits of sanchez , the prime minister of spain, and then macron and the ford mondele method. sanches is going there on a bilateral visit, although he is already cautiously trying to compliment the chinese and