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just tell your smart speaker, "play c-span radio." c-span, powered by cable. >> president biden's labor secretary nominee testified at her confirmation hearing before the senate health education labor and pensions committee. she faced questions about her handling of pandemic unemployment assistance as a state government official, and she has been acting labor secretary since the resignation of marty welch -- marty walsh in march.

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>> -- of julie su to be the secretary of the department of labor. let me get to the point -- i strongly support ms. su's nomination. she has been an excellent deputy secretary of labor for the last two years, and i believe she will make an excellent secretary of labor into the future. i hope very much that she will be confirmed by the senate, and we need her in her job as soon as possible. and let's be honest as we gather this morning. the debate over ms. su really has nothing to do with her qualifications. no one can tell us with a straight face that she is

unqualified for this position. in fact, she is extremely well-qualified. a straight face that miss su is unqualified for this this debate, really, has everything to do with the fact that julie su is a champion of the working class of this country who will stand up against the forces of corporate greed. that is really what this debate is about. let's be clear -- for the last 50 years, middle-class and working-class of this country have been struggling. while we have more income and wealth inequality today than we have ever had, over 60% of our people are living paycheck-to-paycheck and millions are working for starvation wages. 60% of our people are living paycheck to paycheck and millions are working for starvation wages. do julie su should be confirmed as our secretary of labor

because she has spent her life fighting for those working families and they need her now. what this nomination is about is really not complicated. today, as we speak, large multinational corporations are spending millions of dollars on ads, sometimes ugly ads, various parts of this country trying to defeat her nomination. they know debt i know and that is that she is prepared to take on powerful special interests and stand up to the needs of those working people who desperately need defending today. while many corporate interests, not all, but many oppose her nomination, she is supported by every major labor organization in this country representing over 20 million workers including the cio, united

mineworkers of america, teamsters and seiu all strongly support miss su's the confirmation. let us be clear, we need a labor secretary who understands that we must raise the minimum wage to a living wage. something that this committee intends to do. we need a labor secretary who will work each and every day to make it easier, not harder, for workers to exercise their constitutional right to join union and collectively bargain with a better wage benefits and working conditions. we need a labor secretary on the stand that we must and the international embarrassment of the united states being the only major country on earth that does not guarantee paid family and medical leave or paid sick days. something that this committee will also address.

this is america and when your child or spouse gets sick, you should not be fired from your job because you are taking care of them. julie su understands that. we need a labor secretary that understands that it is unacceptable that women in this country are earning just 84 cents on the dollar compared to men and that we need equal pay for equal work. something this committee will also address. we need a labor secretary who believes that young people in this country should have access to a partnership programs which give them the skills they need to get good paying jobs rebuilding america. something that this committee will also address. we need a labor secretary who understands that employees in america who are working 50 or 60 hours a week should not continue to be cheated out of the overtime pay that they have earned and are entitled to with. we need a labor secretary who will strongly enforce the child

labor laws that are on the books and we oppose the expectation of under age workers by extremists who workers. we need a labor secretary that understands that it's under acceptable that half of all americans have no retirement savings and we need to expand, not cut pensions in our country. i strongly believe that will julie su be that labor secretary. as i think we all know, two years ago, the senate voted to confirm with julie su's nomination to be the deputy secretary of labor by a vote of 50 to 47. every democrat in the senate voted for her nomination. every republican in the senate devoted against her nomination. the only thing that has changed since that vote is that we julie su has done an outstanding job as deputy secretary of labor. working with former labor

secretary who strongly supports her confirmation, miss su has worked successfully to expand apprenticeship to more than 30,000 american so that they can go get the high quality manufacturing and construction jobs that are desperately needed to rebuilding this country. now i understand if some of our republican colleagues have expressed concerns about the 11% unemployment insurance fraud rate that occurred in california during the height of the pandemic when we julie su was california secretary of labor but here is what my colleagues conveniently ignored. during that same period, the unemployment insurance fraud rate was 15.4% in tennessee, 15.3% in arizona, 14.3% in south carolina and over 14% in massachusetts. all of those states have republican governors and republican labor secretaries and all of those states experienced higher unemployment

insurance more raised in california. should also add the appointment insurance fraud rate was 27th in kansas, 23% in rhode island, 18% in about, a 60% in new york. i do not know what it was in vermont but it was pretty high vermont as well. all substantially higher than california. the reality is that virtually every state in america faced major challenges with respect to fraud in the unemployment insurance program. why was that? there are a couple of reasons. in the midst of horrific pandemic, president trump was in office and mitch mcconnell led the senate, when millions of americans were rapidly losing the jobs, we all remember those terrible days. through no fault of their own. republicans and democrats came together and passed the cares act by a vote of 96 to 0. every member who was in the senate of that time voted for. republicans and democrats made a conscious decision that the top priority in 2020 was to get unemployment benefits out as

quickly as possible to millions of americans who desperately needed it and to relax regulations because we were dealing with an unprecedented economic and public health emergency. that is precisely what we did in the cares act that donald trump signed into law. the truth is, the trump administration failed to provide adequate guidance of resources to states on how to administer these emergency unemployment benefits and as a result, to brought it up all across the country. that was not something that we julie su did, that is what every republican and democrat who was present at the time voted for in the senate. that is what donald trump signed into law and that is what the republican department of labour administered. further, an important, under miss su's leadership, california was the first day to implemented safeguards to combat fraud in the emergency unemployment assistance program. these safeguards were later promoted by the trump

administration appropriately so an implemented nationwide. those are the facts and they are not in dispute. julie su has the experience, the qualifications, the passion and she has the ability to be an outstanding secretary of labor. i am proud to support the nomination and i am pleased to welcome her to our committee this morning. you are now recognized for your opening statement. >> thank you, chairman sanders. i disagree with -- miss julie su, nice to see you. i can disagree with senator sanders. as highly as i think of miss su and presently as i regard you, i will disagree with sanders and say with a straight face, but i do not think you should be secretary of labor. the committee's priority should be and put differently, and to you senator sanders, where we need a labor secretary was unfair on bias and forcing the nation's labor law. it should be a leader who is responsible, experience, killed in an activist.

with a demonstrated of as an administrator and a demonstrator of record of successfully concluding labor negotiations. there are, as senator sanders points out, serious concerns about mrs. records. secretary of california labour and the labor agency, this su was a chief enforcer of 85, controversial law that dismantled the gag economy such as uber, doordash, lift and remove the flexibility of these individuals to work as an independent contractor. senator sanders suggested all workers will be united in supporting this nomination. those independent contractors opposed 85. miss su express herself as merely being an enforcer of a law passed down by others but i spoke to people in california that said miss su was quite a cheerleader for the law. to be clear, independent contractors, freelances make their own hours and choose a type of work they wish to. do they are shielded from forced or coerced unionization

that will strip the flexibility away. this has made eliminating free lance or a top priority for large labor unions. those that are endorsing the nomination who want more workers paying for union dues. it's important to note, even in california, 85 is unpopular. the governor and state legislator had to pass over 100 exemptions from it was exempt lamented. in fact, the statutory exemptions are longer than the 85 itself. 59% of california voted to further erode the law which naturally labor unions challenged. in 2019, it described employers who oppose california's overreaching law as not understanding the economy that quote, her quote, we want in california. as acting and deputy secretary of labor, miss su is overseeing the biden administration pushed to eliminate independent contracting via federal executive rulemaking to the

detriment of workers. finalize a new regulation was stripped 21 million individuals of their ability to be independent contractors and join the flexibility this provides. the law rejected in california is not a policy that should be spread across the nation. i also wish to hear miss su's position on the department of labor effort to the franchise model. she said privately that she will not pursue this but the franchise model employs over 8 million americans. she has made public comments in support of a new joint employer rule which would impact the almost 800,000 franchise -- franchises operated in our communities. franchisers reliability for thousands of franchise owners that operate as small businesses would be a sure way to destroy the system of franchise. a model, which is empowered underrepresented groups in the business community, such as

women, people of color getting them the opportunity to live the american dream. becoming successful small business owners, creating jobs and lifting other workers out of poverty. no one is surprised at the joint employer rule is a major priority for large labor unions. it is easier to pressure one company to unionize to increase union dues then to pressure thousands of independent businesses. president biden promises they have the most pro-union administration in history. her nomination announcement miss su responded saying quote, signing up for that, i want to help. the priority should not be whatever makes it easier to forcibly in course of the human immunize workers while undermining the business model that employs them. as a republican, i do not expect to agree with the political positions of a biden nominee. we should expect that the heads of the federal government are not driven by activism to carry out an agenda for favorite political group. we need leaders who are

responsibly carrying out the duties of the office and give all covers a fair shake. it is also the responsibility of the secretary to be a good administrator. a secretary of the california labor and workforce development agency, as senator sanders points out, miss su oversaw the employment development department, the e.d.. the states unemployment program. this program over 30 billion dollars in fried by waiving, by waiving, fact-checking requirements recommended by department of labor guidance. the california state auditor reported quote, " despite repeated warnings, edd, " did not bolster its far detection efforts until months into the pandemic and suspended a critical safeguard ". under miss su, fraught in california was ramp it. a rapper was arrested, pled guilty and ordered to pay

$705,000 in restitution after posting a music video bragging about how easy it was to defraud the edd program. the lyrics include quote, " i deng a rich off of edd. ain't hit no more licks because of edd. just last night, i was selling p's and i just woke up to 300 g's four ". the record, 300 g's was $300,000 but he was ordered to pay over 700 g's in restitution. the rapper was not held accountable because of miss su's oversight because he publicly admitted to the crime any lab video. i ask unanimous consent to insert a transcript of the music video entitled " edd " into the record. >> we will put it into the record. >> business management does not inspire confidence that miss su can run a multi million dollar corporation.

former labor secretary marty walsh develop trust with the business community as well as labor unions. steady politics aside, marty walsh had significant experience in negotiations and managing negotiations. that experience is important. now with 150 labor contracts expiring this year, the potential of replacing him with someone who has a history of violence and no direct experience handling labor disputes should be concerning to all. i look forward to hearing from miss su as she addresses these concerns in the committee. with that, i yield. >> thank you senator cassidy. i would now like to welcome our nominee, julie su, is currently the acting secretary for the department of labor and for the past two years has served as the deputy secretary to secretary marty walsh. i thank her for being here with us today. now i turn it over to senator padilla from california to introduce her. >> thank you, mister chair. ranking member kathy.

acting secretary of labor, julie su. julie is a proud california and as you will continue to hear a champion for worker everywhere. julie is indeed a tireless advocate for workers in california for years, so much so that two months after i joined this senate in early 2021, i had the honor of introducing her to this very committee when president biden nominated her to serve as deputy secretary of labor. time since her first confirmation, she has been proven to be a highly effective deputy secretary of labor. now acting secretary. helping this administration add 12 and a half million jobs to the american economy. that is since president biden's first day in office. that is more job gains than any

previous president in a four-year term. that is no exaggeration and during that time julie has been a relentless defender of the rights and dignity of workers. job creation and labor protection are not mutually exclusive and they go hand in hand in these strong responsible economy. her service and her track record comes as no surprise once you understand where she has come from. she's a proud daughter of immigrants and a native of california. she knows personally the sacrifices that many working families face just to make ends meet. her parents were four decades in minimum wage jobs before establishing and growing their own small business. they've seen both sides of the paycheck. they instilled in julie a strong work ethic that led her to take on tough fights for workers as a labor lawyer, as a

labor secretary for the state of california and as deputy secretary for the u.s. department of labor. during her time as secretary of labor in california, she launched the first wage it is a crime campaign so that both employers, if employers as well as the wage workers, better understood their rights and responsibilities. as a secretary of the california labour workforce development agency for the then fifth largest economy in the world, now the fourth largest economy in the world, she managed seven major departments boards and panels to promote quality jobs, provide workforce training and strengthen the states economy. did i mention california has got the fourth largest economy in the world? on a personal note, it was a privilege for me to work alongside julie when she campaigned in california to help low wage workers to

understand the rights and feel protected about one speaking up about labor abuses. that is critically important. and timely. i know many of you have expressed concern about recent reports about child labor violations in america. particularly migrants, children being exploited in the workplace. several senators including many republican senators just the other day expressed their dismay in his [inaudible] calling on the federal government to do its part on cracking down on these labor violations and holding people accountable. if we are genuine and sincere about our dismay, about the reported child labor violations, then you need to agree that we need julie su confirmed as soon as possible. her experience and qualifications are unmatched and i am confident that her

service will fundamentally strengthen the american workforce in the years ahead. confirming acting secretary su to serve as the chief defend of workers and workers rights in the biggest economy in the world will send a strong and important message that in america, workers are valued, workers come first. as former secretary walsh put it, " julie is a lifelong champion of american workers ". if confirmed, as the first asian american to serve as secretary of president biden's cabinet, millions of americans will see themselves represented in the highest levels of our government. they will take pride in her story as a daughter of working class immigrants. yes, julie is exactly the pioneering -- leading the department of labor now. i thank president biden has chosen to nominate her for this position. colleagues, i urge you to

support me in her nomination. thank you, mister chairman. >> thank you, senator padilla. miss su, the floor is yours. thank you for being with us. >> chairman sanders, ranking member cassidy and members of the committee, i am honored to appear before you today. i have enjoyed our discussions prior to this hearing about the department of labor and it's a role in meeting the critical challenges of our time. i am grateful to have my daughter lee, make college senior who is graduating from yale next month, with me today. as a political science major, she, like i, are aware of how amazing it is for her to be able to be here, not just for me but to see democracy in action a close. my other daughter is in her sophomore year at amherst college where she is on the

basketball team and she is taking an economics mid term today. we thought that it was better for her to stay on campus. my parents, sister and brother in law are all up early and watching from california. i want to start by thanking president biden for this incredible opportunity and senator padilla for the very warm introduction. as deputy secretary of labor, i have worked hand in hand with secretary marty walsh to deliver on the presidents promise of an economy fueled from the bottom up and the middle out. the results speak for themselves. the u.s. economy has added a record 12.6 million jobs. the lowest unemployment rate, it has been less than 4% for more than a year, which is close to lotion has been 50 years. all while labor force participation by prime age workers has return to

pre-pandemic levels. when he announced my nomination for u.s. secretary of labor, the president called me the american dream. my parents believed in it, i benefited from it and i want to do my part to make sure it is a reality for workers across the nation. the dream for my family began with my mom's 30-day voyage on a cargo ship to the united states because she could not 40 passenger ticket. both of my parents came to america for opportunity and they found it. in provo, utah where they studied, in madison, wisconsin where my sister and i were born and then in southern california where they settled built a life. to get through school, my parents worked a minimum wage jobs. when i was six years old, my mom got a job for los angeles county as an office clerk. this job gave our family two crucial things, financial

security and health insurance. it also afforded my mother a pension which guarantees my mother and father's financial security into their old age. this level of economic security was impossible for them to imagine as they work long hours and came home every night with the same first question for my sister and me. did you finish your homework yet? that is the transformative power of a good union jobs, something i can speak to personally. while i was growing up, my family also saw opportunity and there's job in the middle class in the form of small business. they own a dry cleaning and laundry met business and then a franchise pizza restaurant. for years, my dad's day job and head right to the pizza shop returning home after 10 pm often with a pizza for my sister and me to take to launch the next day. i know small business owners are the engine of our economy

because high i have watched it and i sought every day. i also grew up translating for my parents, a common experience for immigrant families. after college, i went to law school and became the first lawyer in my family. my experience as a transit at home ship my commitment to making what understandable and meaningful to individuals and communities too often left out of our economy. immediately after law school, i spent nearly two decades representing workers. what i learned is that too many people still work full-time year-round and live in poverty. too many are denied a fair days pay for a fair days work. at the same time, i learned working people, when given a chance to organize, to be heard, not only make things better for themselves, but help to bring american dream within reach to those around them. if confirmed, i will bring these lessons and experiences to my role as we continue to rebuild the economy. i will work to ensure the hard

work pays off for workers and for small businesses just like it did for my family. prior to coming to the department of labor i serve the people of california for a decade. i saw firsthand the government has a meaningful role to play in providing support to the overwhelming majority of employers who play by the rules. one of these roses investment in workforce programs. to provide training to the employers need for skilled workers and to give more workers access to quality jobs. for the last two years, secretary waltz and i worked side by side to expand apprenticeship and in demand industries and training opportunities for jobs like building roads and bridges, manufacturing summit conductors, building winter, solar panels and so much more. many of these jobs do not require a four year degree. we created a national youth employment work strategy and expanded investments in rural communities, tribal communities

and mental health along with other initiatives to ensure that our nations workers are ready to meet the needs of employers and jobs across america. i have been a leader dedicated to finding and expanding the vast areas of common ground between employers and employees. while my job as deputy secretary met my primary focus was on the internal operations of the department, secretary waltz's leadership style was to involve me as a true partner. i was with him for the 20 our negotiation between the rail employers and rail unions that took place in our office and i have traveled from new orleans, to detroit, from indianapolis, to nashville, from san juan, to houston where i have seen firsthand the strength and creativity of americas workers and small businesses. secretary walsh and i also expanded on compliance assistance for employers and employees providing realtime

information through and shows new minor safety and health apps to keep minors safe, help employers work with employees with disabilities to put job accommodations into place and supporting employers to adopt a workplace, health and safety programs including how to find and fix hazards. i believe the department of labor should make it as easy as possible for employers to keep workers safe on the job. if confirmed, you can count on me to listen to employers views about how best to do that. all of this brings me to today. president biden asked me to finish the job that secretary walsh and i started. if confirmed as secretary of labor, i would work to preserve and expand the american dream for all americans. i look forward to working with all of you in partnership on this shared endeavor. i look forward to your questions. >> miss su, thank you very much

and as a son of an immigrant who came into this country without a nickel in his pocket, i very much appreciate what you have said. it's the story of millions of americans. i want you to continue your opening statement in terms of giving us your sense of what your major accomplishments have been, what are you proud of in terms of working in california, what would you have done in the last several years here in the department of labor and more importantly, what is your vision? what do you want to? do one of the problems that you see out there and what do you want to accomplish as our secretary of labor? >> thank you so much, chairman sanders. thank you also for the meeting that we had. i know that we talked about how we need a secretary of labor who is going to deliver in this moment. i really enjoyed our conversation. thank you for that question. you laid out so clearly what a

historic economic recovery this has been. the president says to himself all the time. this is what it looks like to build the economy from the bottom middle out. i have been part of the administration for the last two years and i have been very proud to see what good, thoughtful, policy implementation looks like. because of that work, in partnership with congress, our economy continues to defy expectations. 12.6 million jobs represents a mom getting back to work after the disruption of covid. he represents a veteran coming back from military service and getting a seamless transition into civilian life. one woman i met is now laying pipes 30 feet underground and doing a job that she never imagined for herself. when she comes home at the end of the day, her hands are dirty but she says her children are really proud of her. i think that 12.6 million jobs

is 12.6 million stories like that. >> let me ask you this and you touched on it and something in this committee i hopes will deal with in a bipartisan way. you mentioned that, in so many words, there are millions of young people who do not necessarily want to go to college or get their hands dirty, go out earning good wages doing some of the important work that needs to be done to rebuild america. talk a little bit about your vision of a stronger partnership programs for our country. >> there is so much we can do there. thank you so much, chairman sanders. we have been doing it for the last three years in the department of labor. we have dramatically expanded apprenticeships across the country. we have just in the last two years, over 4600 apprenticeship programs representing 11,000 or so employers. these are opportunities to make sure not only that job seekers and in particular young people get the high quality skills

training that they need, but the employers who are looking for skilled workers to do the many things that we are doing right now, we building roads, bridges, ensuring defraud internet accessibility to communities all across the country, making sure that every family that turns on the faucet gets clean drinking water out of it. building coast to coast elected vehicle charging stations, all of this work needs workers. employers have been saying that what are we going to do to make sure that we have a worker that we need an apprenticeship programs are a big part of that answer. our overall workforce development system is a big part of that answer my team has heard me say this many, many times. we can build physical roads and bridges, we also have to build the roads and bridges that connect people to the jobs they need. that is what the system does. >> what i am hearing from, u.s. secretary of labor, you are prepared to work with this committee to greatly expand the apprenticeship programs in this country. chartered labor is an issue as

senator padilla mentioned a month ago, of great concern. you have some experience in that issue. tell us what you would like to accomplish to make sure that kids in this country are not exploited by unscrupulous employers. >> thank you very much for that question to, chairman sanders. as we have seen, there has been increased attention to the truly horrific examples of child labor that we have seen as of late. to be clear, we are not talking about a young person who's getting their first summer job at the local retail store working the cash register where they are learning how to show up on time and work with customers. in the case, the most recent case, the department of labor found, it was over 100 children as young as 13 working in meatpacking facilities on the night shift doing cleaning work.

i think we can all agree that that is explored of child labor that we do not want to see in the department of labor's not only good to enforce a law, we are also leading an inter agency task force across the federal government to make sure that we are exchanging information as needed and bringing all of our resources to bear and i look forward to working with this committee and congress on a fast. >> thank you very much. senator cassidy? >> thank you miss su. let me first express admiration for your incredible personal story and all of us are one or two generations from a story like that and yours is more immediate. speaking about policy issues though. 85, controversial in many places in california unpopular. in 2019, you described that those who do not want to comply with the overreaching law has not understand the economy that

quote, you won in california. we want is a royal we. it is important to note that the legislator had to go back and pass on over 100 exemptions. i say that because i think one thing that concerns us, would you commit to not trying to force regulation upon the rest of the country that which was done in california? >> thank you for the question, senator. the short answer to your question is yes. the context to your question is that the abc test in california was first adopted by a unanimous california supreme court decision that was written by republican appointee chief justice. >> isn't it fair to say that this greatly expanded that decision and covered workers that were not necessarily covered by that decision but far beyond? >> following that decision, the california legislator did pass a b five that codified the tests. to be extremely clear, i was not part of the legislator, i

have never been a legislator, i have tremendous respect for what you all do. i have not done that job. the abc test was codified in california. it's not the only state that has it but when the department of labor issued our rule an independent contractor versus employee classification, we explicitly did not include the abc test in our rule. that is why i answered yes to your question. only congress can adopt the abc test. i cannot. >> there are other things that could be done through rule that gets it to the same point even if it does not include abc. it is an equal kind of commitment to not attempt to do through rule that which may be absent abc but otherwise has the same sort of effect? >> i will commit with absolute certainty and commitment that i will always have full faith and fidelity to federal law. >> that is different because i can promise you i have learned, give me a smarter attorney and they can find all sorts of interpretation of federal law. opposite, down is down.

but sometimes up is down. let me move on though because i have on -- limited time. when we met, you said you would not pursue changes to the joint employ regulation can for. we know this is a priority for labor unions. did you again in for the record give assurances that you will not pursue changes to the joint employer rule as secretary of labor? >> senator, i know you mentioned the concern double franchisees in franchise wars. we enjoyed our conversation. i mentioned that my family, my parents had a franchisee business. the reason my sister and i were able to go to college -- >> i have limited time. >> i understand the importance of the model. there is not a joint employee rule on a regulatory agenda. it was not on our agenda that came out last year. >> is that to say will not be come on the agenda at a later point? >> correct, senator. >> next, miss su, thank you. there is about 150 labor contracts coming up representing 1.6 million workers expiring this year. one of the concerns in your

nomination is that you lack direct experience negotiating and handling libra spirits. can you point to any successful outcomes to labor disputes? >> thank you very much, senator, for that. i did work very closely with them secretary marty walsh on the negotiations that concluded on our part in september that involved at the rail unions and the rail employers. >> it's rare to say that it took congress and the president to conclude those negotiations. those were not successful, fair? >> when we concluded our 20 hour negotiation a tentative agreement was reached. the verdict what everyone was saying would've been a national disaster. it is true that there were other parts of the process as there always are in collective bargaining negotiations at the table. the other thing, to your question, senator, is that one of the other big issues that is looming is what is happening at the west coast ports, the ports

of l.a. and long beach. in my hometown, involving parties of people that i have known for sometime and i have been actively engaged in that conversation as well. >> is it fair to say that those have been breaking? down there was a press release in february that optimism and subsequently there have been other reports not quite so optimistic. it would be a stretch to say it's a successful process, correct? >> they are not concluded yet, senator, that is true. my role, confirms, would be to -- when asked -- help make sure that the party state the table that they are able to grapple with some of the hard issues that they face and that if asked to come assist, i would do so. i would not give up on those negotiations at this time, senator. >> mister chair, i ask unanimous consent to enter articles in a letter concerning the ongoing discussions in the

ports from president biden to 300 retailers urging him to step in and negotiate against the union management. >> without objection. >> with that i yield. >> senator murray? >> acting secretary julie su, you have been a reliable and fair partner since your confirmation. i really look forward to continuing to work with you on implementing bipartisan priorities that members of this committee on both sides of the aisle passed in just last congress like these two point oh, mental health parity and the pump act which helps make sure working moms have the simple right to take a break and pumps work so thank you for the work you have done. let me ask you, as a health committee chair, i let a group of senators commenting on the departments proposed rule regarding employee classification. i have been extremely frustrated regarding all the hand wringing from some of my colleagues who are misrepresenting this issue.

deal well explicitly states in the proposed rule that the fair labor standards act does not have an abc test like the test in california. dol has been very clear that it does not have the authority as you just dated to implement an abc test. that is something that only congress can do and everyone out there fearmongering about an abc test knows this. in fact, in several of them have put out statements acknowledging that after the proposed rule was issued in the fall on october 11th of last year, lyft stated this about the contractual and i quote, importantly this rule, number one, does not re-classify lyft drivers drivers as employees and, to does not enforce lift to change our business model. this approach previously applied to lift and at-based companies and did not result in reclassification of drivers. on december 14th of last year,

the international franchise association submitted a statement saying, and i quote, i -- have a applauds the proposal for express recognition that the abc test does not apply to the fair labor standards act, appropriately clarifying that the franchise relationship falls outside of its coverage. chairman sanders, i would like to announce consent to -- statement from lyft and the state from the international francis oceanic shun into the record. >> thank you, mister chairman. acting secretary su, do you agree with those statements i read from lyft and from the ifa? >> bank you very much, senator murray. lyft knows their business model. i would definitely confirm your point and the ranking member that i will rule does not include the abc. has it can only be a busy test, because only congress can adopt that test. and our role is meant to be in full compliance with the fair

labor standards act, and decades of federal law on the issue. >> and is it true that the o l has already stated its does not have the authority, under the f l s a, to implement an abc test absence of an act of congress? >> that is correct, senator. >> good. i think that is pretty straightforward and i hope that clears it up for all of our colleagues over here. let me turn to something else. at the end of last year i would say folks who work with up by partisan, bicameral leadership of the other contention committees to pass huge bipartisan retirement package against coo. dol it's going to consider the implementation under a considerate number of provision, such as establishing new savings accounts, which i believe will help expand coverage. creating a retirement savings lost and found to make sure that workers have access to the money saved underpass employers, and many other priorities. if confirmed, will you commit to working with me and all of my colleagues across the aisle

to ensure that provisions of care to point no are implemented correctly and in a timely manner? >> i absolutely will, senator. i so hastily and serve the first question i didn't also first say thank, you for your leadership as chair of this committee when it came to rest deputy secretary. also, you mentioned the pump act. as a mother who breastfed both of my children and had to rescue that, work i thank you for that. as for two point no, we would -- employ and look forward to working with you on that. the law requires that department establish a lost and found program, as you, mentioned to make sure that people, americans who have saved their entire lives for retirements are able to access those benefits when they retire. sometimes, people change jobs and lose track, or maybe they forget. and that is why a prolonged like that is so important. the department of labor, under our employee, benefited the -- or epps, launched a single program in 2017 that was really more of an individual case by

case one. through that work, we have recovered six billion dollars of retire benefits for retired americans. so, secured two point oh is going to let us do that for all retirees, and we look forward to working with you to make sure that becomes real. >> thank you very much. thank you for all your work as acting deputy secretary. we look forward to working with you in the next session. thank you. >> senator romney, thank you, mister chairman and deputy secretary su. we now know unaccompanied minor children are being trafficked in illegal labor markets across the country. your department wrote last year that violations have increased by some 70% since 2018. was that communicated to the white house, prior to this year? it's that something you have communicated to them this is a major, major problem? >> so, thank you very much, senator, for the question. as we discussed a little bit earlier today, we are seeing -- >> now, i have a very specific

question and very limited time. did you communicate that as a department to the white house, prior to this year? >> i don't know the answer to that question. >> okay, thank you. my second question, which is, during your last two years at the department, the public calendar shows you had a standing meeting with unions on a regular basis. but until six weeks ago, -- you haven't met with any business associations. unions on a regular basis, but not with any business associations. it's hard to understand how, when we think about putting two groups together, getting into the compromise and negotiating, how we can have any confidence he would be seen as an unbiased, neutral arbiter. but instead, will be biased in such a way that businesses associations are not going to be able to trust the department of labor to play a meaningful role. of greater concern to me is your record in california. this is something i've raced with you before. but the fact that under your lead, unemployment insurance payments in california, of some

31 billion dollars, went to people who are basically receiving money on a criminal basis, illegally receiving money from the federal government. 31 billion. that is about as much as we provided military aid to ukraine. that is almost twice the total budget of the department of labor. under your leadership in california, 31 billion dollars. was fraudulently paid out. now, there's a principle in all sorts of enterprises, known as the peter principle. which is, people get promoted to a point where their competence is no longer bend establishments. in this case, your record there is so severely lacking, i don't know how in the world it makes sense for the president to nominate you to take over this department. to work behind marty walsh is one thing and to learn from him, but you haven't had experience negotiating a major deal between unions and management.

and your leadership of an enterprise resulted in 31 billion dollars of fraudulent payments. what am i missing? >> so senator, thank you. both of those points. in terms of business leaders, i think business leaders and industry associations who have worked with me would paint a different story about both my openness and my desire. >> but you've got to meet with them for them to do so. if you haven't met with them for the first two years until six weeks ago, and effect with unions regularly, that sends a particular message to those business leaders. >> so, 100%, the relationships are very important. i believe that i have been, and i would be happy to talk to you more about them, at any time. but as i've said in my opening statement, i think anybody who knows my record would say that i am someone who is communicative, transparent, and really sees that there is

tremendous areas of common ground between employers who are job creators and employees who do the work. >> that's as accurate as irrelevant to your competence to be able to lead i negotiation, frost between unions and management. help me with the 31 billion dollars. >> thank you for, that senator. so, the vast majority over 95% of the fraud in the unemployment system, not just in california, but across the nation, was in the pandemic unemployment assistance program. a program passed by congress to meet a very, very urgent need. an unprecedented crisis that was viewed to require an unprecedented solution. that pandemic unemployment systems program did not have the safeguards that regular unemployment insurance does. >> you set those safeguards. there are guidelines in california. you chose to wave to get that money out! 31 billion dollars! >> so senator -- >> do you realize what 31 billion dollars would have meant to the people in ukraine? have we been able to double our military support there? >> yes. yes.

and that is why fraud, waste, and abuse of any kind is completely unacceptable. that is why in california, as soon as we knew there was fraud happening, i shut the front door to that fraud. i made changes to the program that would ensure people couldn't get in the front door. but to be very clear, the state auditor who did many audits never said, never found, that my eliminating eligibility requirements resulted in any pandemic unemployment assistance -- >> my time is up. the buck stops at the top. you are the person running you. i wore the one who decided to waive the guardrails, 31 billion dollars. the idea of promoting a person who has had that experience, to a position of leadership of the entire department of labor, makes no sense at all. thank you. >> respectfully, senator, if i may, just on the unemployment insurance fraud issue, california's unemployment insurance fraud rates, which was different from the pandemic unemployment assistance, was really about comparable to what

has been before. the high rates you are talking about we're in a program that did not have the safeguards in its design. >> senator baldwin. >> thank you, mister chair one. welcome. acting labor secretary su, i want to revisit a couple of feet questions you've gotten from colleagues across the aisle. because i don't -- i didn't hear you get an adequate opportunity gets to answer. so, my colleagues have suggested you are inexperienced in negotiating labor contracts. however, as you've mentioned, you stood shoulder to shoulder with former secretary walsh for those marathon negotiating sessions too gets to a deal to avert a national rail strike and economic shutdown. further, your nomination is supported by both the teamsters representing 340,000 p s

workers, for whom the largest private sector collective bargaining agreement expires in july of this year. and the ports of l.a., who's 50,000 workers facilitated 200 billion dollars in trade last year. the collective bargaining agreement for these workers expired in july of 2022. and your experience, in relationships with the l.a. port, will be invaluable in ensuring both sides reach a fair agreements and avoid supply chain disruptions. miss su, isn't it true that you are significantly experienced and qualified to negotiate vital labor agreements? >> thank you so much, senator. i appreciated our meeting, and i appreciate that question. yes. i believe that i am. >> thank you. to hear some of my colleagues tell it, you are also writing regulations with no regard to the impact on small businesses. your track record, not to

mention your life story, tells a very different story. not only are you endorsed by your hometowns chamber of commerce in los angeles, but you have worked with national chamber and many industry associations throughout your tenure. you talk a little bit about some of the initiatives you've had that you've worked on as deputy secretary and how you proactively sought out and incorporated the input of the industries involved in those initiatives. >> thank you so much for that question, senator. over my tenure as deputy secretary, working closely with secretary marty walsh, we spend a lot of time talking to individual employers, industry associations, specific workforce needs. how are we going to match that needs that workers with the desires workers have for good jobs, for better jobs, and for training programs that will align the two things?

and so i sat down in michigan with both employers and unions about what it's going to look like as we build a more electric vehicles, for example, i've sat down with employers and, even, out across the country around how we can support them in expanding their apprenticeship programs or creating not just employer by employer training, but looking at the sector as a whole. the needs we have today require more than just magic between employers and job seekers, but really building capacity in communities to do training on a sector wide basis. and sector industry leaders representing employers are really key to that, which is why i have met with them and swipe those who really know me will say that i am very much committed to working in partnership, understanding their needs and their challenges, and figuring out what government can do to meet them. >> thank you.

you know that i am also the incoming new chair of the labor, health, and human services subcommittee on appropriations, which draft annual legislation to fund the department of labor. one point of significant bipartisan cooperation within the labour h s a spill has been support for increasing funding for apprenticeships. over the last several years, we have seen funding increased from $90 million in that year 2016, to 200 and $85 million in last years on the bus. i would like to hear you talk a little bit more about how that funding has been used at the department of labor, and how it might help employers, and especially smaller communities like we have so many of in wisconsin, two -- to help employers find workers with the skills that they need?

>> i so appreciate the chance to talk about this. thank you senator. we are very proud of the work we've done on apprenticeship programs. we've done a multiple industries, in terms of expanding. so, cybersecurity is one of those in cement industries with high paying jobs, where there is a need for skilled workers. in just a six month period, we were able to expand apprenticeship programs in cybersecurity to the tune of 16,000 individual premises, bringing the total across the country to 43,000. teacher apprenticeships. when we came in 2021, there were two states that had teacher apprenticeships. now, there are 17. in terms of your question about smaller communities actually in wisconsin, we have a grants. it is our women apprenticeships in nontraditional occupations grant. it is a way of looking at all these good jobs we are creating. they should be available to all communities, and i have seen that when you give women a chance to do work that they did not imagine doing, they can change their own lives. the country star families lives. we do have a grants just like that with the wisconsin

regional training partnership, which is going to publish 950 people in a small community to join apprenticeships and pre-apprenticeship programs. >> -- >> thank you, mister chairman. thanks for being here today. now, you have a long history of activism on behalf of organized labor. i think that is all understood. but very few examples of impartiality. you've been biased, for, instance you wrote in 2005 that businesses perpetuate economic injustice and use, abuse, and exploit poor people. i have some legitimate concerns you won't be fair and neutral if confirmed. i'm not confident your ability to act as a neutral and fair secretary won't be compromised by personal views. so, miss, your nomination is opposed by at least 32 business groups. and coalitions, and the primary concern we are hearing is your confirmation would be

devastating to a wide number of industries and basis. i'm not an expert in labor law. but i have to say this much opposition concerns me. you have tried to assure critics would wear a different hat. and be less of an activist, but i find that very hard to believe, with all this opposition. can you explain that, and how you are going to overcome that? >> thank you very much, senator. i'm not sure if i should still call you coach. >> sure, you can't. i've been called worse. >> in our meeting. but thank you for that. i also want you to know, i tell my daughter you said she could come see you. >> thanks. >> to talk about the intersection between athletics and education, both of great interest to her. so, i appreciate that question. i do believe that employers and employer associations that have worked with me could help to round out that perception of those who have not yet had a

chance to work with me. i also have shared, and will say again, my own, personal background has given me a front row seat to that needs, the issues, the struggles, the challenges, the difficulties, and the incredible work of small business owners who are the lifeblood of the job creators in all of our communities. my family now, my cousins, my, aunts have businesses in california. so, i have not only the personal perspective about how important it is, i think my record really demonstrates, especially in my work since i've been in government, how to build big tables, bring employers and employees together, labor and unions together, we have been doing so much of that just to build training partnerships,

understanding if you build a training partnership, we are participants know at the beginning of training, that they are going to end up with a good drop at the end of it. that is a very simple way to design a program that is going to work and is going to let you recruit people to it and how people want a stake in the program. >> following up on senator romney's question, have you made an effort to meet with non-union businesses and groups in your last two years? >> absolutely, senator. yes. >> how has that gone? >> i think it's gone well. i mean, again, employers are both excited about the opportunities created in this administration. we have seen it is not just the historic federal investments that are going to bring in manufacturing back to the united states and, all of the infrastructure investments, it's not just federal investments. there have been hundreds of billions of dollars in private investments. what have been called crowding in, too meet the moment, to

take advantage of what the federal government is doing. that is the president's vision for what we imagine industrial policy and create an economy that works for everybody. >> let me get my last question in quick. you've consistently worked to oppose and block efforts to stop illegal immigration, reportedly extending a minute jury staff as your california labor commissioner, instructing them to turn away immigration and custom and fortune agents show up labor officers without a federal warrant. i'm concerned about the fact that our southern border is wide open. i think we all are. most of. us and the negative impact that this has on, it's having on our country. could you provide that memo to us, to this committee? >> thank you very much, senator. >> do you remember that memo? >> i don't remember. i don't remember it well. i don't have access to it. not at this time. i do want to say, senator,

again, i think my background is really about a commitment to the dignity of work. and off the importance of making sure that workers have the protections that they need when they go to work, so they get a fair days pay for a fair day's work, and every worker who walks into the workplace comes home healthy and safe at the end of the day. i think that regardless of where you live in the united states, that is part of the basic promise of this country, and we want all workers to be able to put food on the table at the end of the day, and put a roof over their heads. and that is the record of work that i have done in my career. >> thank you, miss chairman. >> thank you. senator murphy? >> thank you very much, mister chairman. good to see you. let me say thank you for coming in and spending some time with me, talking about issues that are important to connecticut. i will get to one of those, if i have time. but, first, i really wanted to

give you an opportunity to expand a little bit on the answers that you were giving to senator romney. california is a really big state. so, every number coming out of california it's going to be a big number. so, when you look at this question of unemployment insurance fraud, 100 billion dollars is a lot of money. when i was looking at the percentages from other states when it comes to insurance fraud, there are some big numbers,. to californians about 11% of benefits paid, but in tennessee, it was 15%. in alabama, it was 14%. south carolina, it was 14%. kansas, it was 27%. every state had issues here. but what seems important to me is that you lead when it came to implementing reform. so much so that, as i

understand it, the trump administration ended up top adopting some of the reforms you put in place. so, i, it didn't sound like you got the chance to fully give the committee the information on the reforms that eventually became standard practice or recommended to other states. i just wanted to let you finish out that answer. >> senator, thank you so much. thank you for meeting with me prior to this hearing as well. first, let me just state, again, very clearly, that there is no place for fraud, waste, or abuse in systems like this. a criminal enterprises that took advantage of the lack of eligibility requirements built into the pandemic unemployment assistance program may, it was not only bad because it was a fraud on tax payers, it was also bad because it made it even more difficult for states to actually pay out claims to

those who are eligible. so, there is really a horrible situation that there was so much fraud on the system. but you are absolutely right, senator. once we saw that it was happening, and it happened because the pandemic unemployment assistance program and the state auditors said this, too, it did not have safeguards in place at the get-go. it was meant to go out quickly, because we were facing a massive crisis, in which people were out of work through, no fault of their own. in unprecedented numbers. so, it allowed people to self attest that they were eligible. it's had a minimum payment amount. minimum payment should be paid. it had backdating and it. if you applied in august but you are unemployed as a february, you got all of that amount back to february. those were built into the program that states what

mightily or stay up, data technology and the rest, which is well known. once, as california labor secretary, one of the things i did was i stopped the automatic backdating. and that is believed to have stopped over 60 billion dollars worth of payments that could have gone out. after i did that, the department of labor, under the prior administration, issued a directive to all states to do the same thing. since i've been deputy secretary, what we have been doing at the department of labor is really trying to learn from but lessons to make sure they are never repeated again, to work in collaboration with states, to be clear about the things that we should do on a national level, to fight that kind of fraud. the fraud one from state to state, but also, to shore up the unemployment safety net, so in the next crisis, it can really deliver. >> thank you for that response.

i wanted to make sure we got as much on the russia as possible. the will ask a commitment from you to work with me, because i am running out of time. you and i talked at length in the office about the challenge we have with the defense industrial base in connecticut. we have to hire 5700 new workers in connecticut and rhode island at electric -- to meet the demands of the submarine fleets, who are producing more submarines than ever before. that is a real challenge for us, and it's a challenge we can't meet without assistance from the department of labor for apprenticeship programs, and workforce training programs. so, i want to ask for your commitments to work with me and other members of this committee who are going to need dol's help in the secretaries helped directly in making sure we have enough resources to train all of the people we are going to need in order to fill the needs in defense manufacturing base

in connecticut throughout the country. >> 100%, senator. yes. >> thank you, mister chairman. >> senator mueller? >> thank you, and thank you for being here today. it is a pleasure to meet you. i have to address something in the beginning. our chairman came out with a very strong comment, there and everybody to disagree with your qualifications to say it with a straight face, and as always, he always talks about starvation wages, and what i thought he has set the tone here. i am just starting to figure out that is just your personality, no offense, this is your personality. and then i don't understand the lack of knowledge, basically, basic knowledge, when this is the health, education labor, and pension, the basic knowledge of understanding what labor cost really is. as a business owner, who's employed truly hundreds of people, labor is always going to have a beginning wage. and everything else goes from there.

so, you can't call a beginning wage a starvation wage if there's always going to be a beginning wage. i don't care what industry you are. and it's always going to start something. the product and industry is making is going to adjust whatever the cost of the final product is. it's going to be delivered to everybody. but that's actually what and the friendship program is, to. that is supposed to get people into the program to start working towards that. but yet, apprenticeship programs themselves can actually be kind of restrictive, because a lot of people that are entering these were courses that are going to maybe start requiring apprentices, they didn't want to go to college. but yet, we keep expanding apprenticeship programs from one year to two year to three year to some apprenticeship programs, for years had longer. and an individual is like look, i didn't want to go to college! that's why entered the workforce to begin with. we gotta think about what we're talking about we start expanding apprenticeship programs, but it also understands the lack of people running these programs, running the industry, of actually understanding what business is like. which is why so many of us,

right you are, seems like, a super nice individual. we had a great conversation. that doesn't mean being nice qualifies you to be secretary of labor, because if you don't have that basic understanding of knowing where it's like, then how can you relate and truly represents both sides? for instance, have you ever been

>> which goes back to one of your comments that you wrote about, that i will get to later. have you ever had to provide quarterly reports to shareholders? >> senator, i have, not -- >> i am just, disqualifications. because the chairman said, can you actually stay with a straight face, if you qualified on this. these are points you are trying to make. have you ever decided which health insurance plan you are going to offer to employees? >> senator, if i -- may >> i'm going through these because i'm making a point. >> the chairman was the one who threw down the gauntlet and say, i dare anyone to say this with a straight face. i am making a point here. have you ever -- i >> have not chosen a health insurance plan. >> have you ever had an employee file workers comp? you have had to work with or fight against? >> as an employer,. now >> you know what a workers comp experience model is? >> i do, based on my work -- >> but you've never actually apply that to your bottom line to figure out what your profit margins and bottom line is going to be. have you ever file taxes on behalf of a business? >> i have not, senator. >> have you ever had to comply

with federal regulations on a small business? >> no, sir. >> so it's really hard to understand what it's like when you're getting mandated and regulations coming at you. have you ever had your business model threatened by the federal government, breach of regulations? >> now, senator. >> i have. that is what drove me here today. and we have someone like yourself that makes a comment like this, like you did in 2005, who says the very definition of a corporation, as an entity, that is created to permit maximum income and designed to insulate individuals who profit from the liability. that is your opinion about a corporation. do you still stand by that? >> sir, i don't remember when i wrote. that the context in which i wrote it i, don't remember. >> there is no context, it to be taken out of context. do you still believe that corporations are just insulation to shield individuals like myself? we don't have any liabilities, and we have no financial liabilities of all, as a corporation, at all.

i don't understand that. but you still stand by that comment? >> i will tell you what i do stand by, senator. >> i just need to know -- >> one more question. do you stand by that comment? >> i do stand by the important role that both employers and employees -- >> are society was built in white privilege and systemic racial subordination to achieve -- also? >> can i say but i do stand by, senator? >> i'm not asking your comments. a mask you still believe on both those comments? you brought us in your comments. do you stand by those comments or do you not? you wrote them. did you stand by them or not? >> i believe that we -- >> no, ma'am. i am saying to you believe what you said? is it yes or no? >> i will say the, senator. >> if you can't answer that -- >> in a longer conversation. >> if you can answer, this then, that's a huge problem. because just like our chairman sometimes leaves at the apple, the bias he has against labor. you also believe the secretary, as secretary of labor, or labor

department with biased. because you cannot say those types of statements like that and represent all sides. with that, i yield back. >> senator cain. >> thank you, mister chairman. secretary su, thank you for meeting with me earlier and talking about issues i'm concerned with in virginia, that tight labor market, seasonal visas for a lot of our seafood workers. i really appreciate. i look forward to supporting with the wind working with you on those issues. just want to summarize some topics and i want you to tell me if i'm wrong at all, summarizing what i've heard before. business interactions, senator romney asked if you had only started to meet with business associations recently, but during your two years, you've met with businesses repeatedly, correct? >> yes. >> chambers of commerce, united airlines, businesses connected with ports all around the country. railroad industry. so, you've had dialogue with businesses constantly during your two years. is that accurate? >> that is correct, thank you. >> like the los angeles chamber

of commerce had said about you, secretary su, quote, has worked with the numerous chamber numerous times to bring a reasonable balance to -- to achieve one of the biggest chambers of commerce in the united states. is that correct? >> i don't know for a fact, but, yes i do believe that is what i said. thank you. >> and the society for human resources management, which manages hr professionals, businesses around the country. they support your nomination. , so i think in a business interaction, it seems like you have been engaging in that dialogue with businesses to senator mullin's point, you haven't run a business. we have cabinet members who have. i think cabinet members should bring diverse experiences to the table. you bring a set of experiences. you can't have all the experiences, but other members of the cabinet, gina raimondo, secretary of commerce, had a very active role in the private sector before her public service career. with respect to the concern about independent contractors, folks are concerned with this particular california ab5 law. it began with the california

supreme court decision. you have never been on the california supreme court. it was codified by the california legislature. you are not a member of the california legislature. you are obligated to implement state laws, just as you would be obligated to implement federal laws in your capacity as deputy secretary of labor. you have issued a regulation in this space. that does not incorporate the abc test for determining who is an employee and who is an independent contractor. major groups that were concerned with 85, like lyft and the franchise association have praised the federal standards that you have created as, thank goodness the standard does not include the thing we didn't like about the california standards. so, there is a pr campaign in california, arizona, don't let julie su california our workplace. very explicitly, the independent contractor rule, the department of labor is issuing now, it's not the ab5 rule. the attacks on the ab5 rule are

not relevant with the department of labor is doing today. on the unemployment insurance issue, i agree with senator romney and others. fraught is outrageous, and especially with people taking advantage and defrauding a program designed to help the nation out of a crisis. but many states, as senator murphy said, have fraught rates much higher. for people who just didn't focus on this, let's be really clear about what this fraud was. i'm going to give you some statistics. the week that ended march 14th, 2020, the last three pandemic week, 278,000 americans filed unemployment insurance claims. but next week, it was 2.9 million americans. the week after that, it was 5.9 million americans. but week after that, it was 6.1 million americans. so, our nations employment agencies that have been used to dealing with 278,000 claims a week nationally, we're now dealing with 20 times that.

and what did congress do? we did three things that added to your workload, even beyond that explosion of claims. we first said, you have to give benefits for weeks. we second said, you have to increase the amount of benefits to get us through this economic catastrophe. but the third thing, and this is for all the fraud was, in every state including virginia, we made you pay unemployment benefits to a whole class of people who are not part of the unemployment system. independent contractors, gig workers, congress required you to do that. people who weren't in the california system, who weren't in the virginia system, and we did it to save the economy! 95% of the fraud in california was in that program. that 95% number was probably the same in virtually every state. it was congress that required you, at a time when your workforce was low because unemployment claims were low, but, now unemployment claims or expanding 20 fold, just in your

normal business, we make you do three things, including one that was adding people who hadn't been in the system at all. and some scammers took advantage of a. infuriates me when scammers take advantage of seniors orban sent cameras take advantage of someone like that. but you are dealing with the reality that you can't blame congress for this, but i could be honest about how this problem got created. and i am upset with the fraud, but i am not upset that congress did but it did. because it helped this nation get through the worst public health emergency and one of the most serious economic challenges in the last 100 years. i think you did a fine job under challenging circumstances, trying to negotiate through this extraordinary set of programs. i think you've done a fine job in your two years of deputy secretary. i look forward to supporting your nomination. >> senator bud. >> thank, you chairman. and deputy secretary, thank you for being here today. your own record supporting

eight b 257 and this bill creates a fast food council of ten unelected government bureaucrats to dictate wages and working conditions for california restaurant businesses. this bill force unionization on workers who never even asked for it. and it took independents away from small business owners, and it gave it to unelected bureaucrats. deputy secretary su, california voters have gathered enough signatures to prevent it ab257 from taking effect. so, will you push policies, as the secretary of labor, like you did in california, that take away the independents job creators? >> thank you very much, senator. it is nice to see you here today. i believe that's bona fide independent contractors will always have a place in our economy. they have, and they will, and they are very, very important. i am not positive if ab257 --

i believe you are talking about a -- >> let me go back to the last part of the question, which is, will you push policies as secretary of labor like you did in california that, take away the independents of job creators? >> -- >> that's more of a yes or no. >> no. to be clear, i would absolutely respect the authority of this body, of you, to make laws that i, if confirmed, would be charged with enforcing. >> thank you. you've called the abc test the model for the country. yet, voters in california decided it shouldn't even be a model in that state. with nearly 60% of voters overturning part of the law that applies to app based rideshare and delivery services. ab5 also resulted in a list of carve outs for industries it was longer than law itself. the side from the fact that

california lawmakers are picking winners and losers, it seems obvious that the law requiring more than 100 separate car bouts is deeply flawed. deputy secretary, to give belief that california's 85 is a model for the department of labor to build its federal labor policy on? >> thank you, senator. i believe that ab5 was a bill passed by the california legislature, and given to me in my event role to enforce. i do not believe that the abc test that is caught a fight in ab5 its federal law, and i do not believe that i could make it federal law, unless you all made it federal law. >> let me push this little bit more. in your comments to senator cassidy, you said the department of labor does not have the authority to implement the abc test. do you still think it is a good model for the country?

>> i think -- >> your moment, senator. >> senator, bona fide independent contractors have a place in our economy and need to be able to operate. i also believe that miss classification, meaning when you have someone who should be an employee, but it's called an independent contractor, maybe they work side by side with other people who do the exact same thing as they are, but they are called and independent contractors, so they're not protected by minimum wage, overtime, unemployment insurance, and other laws. and the employees are? that is a problem in our economy that needs to be addressed. >> thank you. i want to shift gears to rulemaking. but i do see every role is still on that reconciliation that this year, despite the fact of the last time this rule was issued, it had devastating affects, causing 10.2 million low and middle income individuals to lose access to investment assistance. i have serious concerns with

the d.o.l. reemployment thing a failed standard. not to mention the potential mismatch of industry standards that might arise between its and the fcc's red vest interests. so, i'm curious how many taxpayer money, the d.o.l. and doj previously spent on implementation and litigation of this asterisk 2016 fiduciary rule. and how much both departments would project to spend, should the labor department move forth with another rule. any idea how much he would spend on that, on implementation and litigation? >> so senator, thank you. i don't know the answer. i was not here in 2016. i will say that your point is precisely why it's so important for us to engage with all stakeholders before adopting any rule. >> hopefully, that includes 10.2 million low and middle income individuals who have lost access to investments assistance. i am out of time. i'm going to be opposing your nomination. i do appreciate your time today. i yield back to the chair. >> thank you, senator. >> senator hassan.

>> thank you, mister chair. i want to thank you and ranking member cassidy for the hearing, and acting secretary su, it's good to see you. thank you for meeting with me. before i start with questions, i want to take a moment to echo some of my colleagues comments this morning and reiterate how important it is to crack down on the alarming increase in child labor violations. expand access to career training pathways that will lead to good paying jobs, and support workers who are experiencing disability. so, i want to start with a question about workforce training. people need access to high quality workforce training that leads to good paying jobs. as you might know, i alone with senators young, collins, and cain, and others of the bipartisan gateway to careers act, which would establish a career path and grant program for community colleges, technical colleges, and workforce development partners to provide job training for unemployment or underemployed individuals. the bill would also provide

support to workers who experience barriers such as transportation and access to childcare. if confirmed, how will you increase access to workforce training and supports that boost program completion? >> thank you so much for that question, senator. and for your work in leadership in the space, i really enjoyed our conversation about this. and other issues. so, as deputy secretary alongside secretary walsh and us acting secretary, and if confirmed, as labor secretary, this would really be a top priority for the department of labor. we are seeing that need for skilled workers and a whole bunch of different industries. that is why the department of labor recently put out an 80 million dollar grant to expand nursing training for nurses. i know this is something that this committee has already brought to light as well. and that stakeholder engagement, listings what the needs are in the industry's, the need is not only for nurses themselves, but

also clinical instructors. so, the funding opportunity does addressable foes issues. now, we've expanded apprenticeships intricate. that is when i haven't talked about yet. i know a point was noted it takes too long for references to finish programs. i do think we have to look at ways to recruits and to train and to get people in high quality, with high quality training into good jobs as quickly as we can. if confirmed, i would love to work with you on this, senator. >> well, thank you. i would like to turn to a slightly different topic. in january 2023, the labor force participation rate for people experiencing disabilities was around 25%, compared to about 65% of those without a disability. we have to do better as a country at removing barriers and creating opportunities for individuals experiencing a disability, so they can enter and remain in the workforce. i deeply value the work that -- department of disability employment policy is doing to

increase employment opportunities for these individuals, and help employers better understand ways to support them. to this and, acting secretary su, can you detail some of the major initiatives currently underway by the office of disability, employment, and policy? >> thank you so much for that question, senator. i was going to say, and you beat me to it, the department of labor does have our own sub agency that is devoted to exactly the issue you are racing. because we see and understand that it is critically important, if we are to build an economy where no one is left behind, to make sure that communities that are not participating in the labor force, to the extent they want to and could, have an opportunity. and that is the primary focus of our office of disability employment policy, or adept. and one of the biggest parties for adept is, i think what you are alluding to, which is competitive integrated employment. making sure that people with

disabilities are able to work in the labor force, alongside workers without disabilities, and get the training and the pathways for upward mobility that they need and deserve. so, we have been doing that competitive integrated employment work in multiple areas. we do it through technical assistance grants. we do it through collaboration with states to make sure that funding and states are appropriate, the funding states provided our all going towards a holistic set of policies that will actually make a difference in the lives of people with disabilities on the ground. and we have done it in the form of technical assistance and work directly with employers so they can understand how to integrate these kinds of policies in the workplace. >> well, thank you very much. i look forward to working with you on that. i have another question that i will submit for the record on

apprenticeships, because i understand that i am out of time and i understand other people have touched on it. but it's an area in which new hampshire needs and we would very much appreciate working with the department, moving forward with people on both sides of the aisle to improve apprenticeships and make them more available in this country. thank you. >> senator brown? >> thank you, mister chairman. chairman sanders, i'd like to keep things on time here. i'd like that, to. and from the logistics of business. joining our conversation yesterday, and i am going to read a statement here, because like i told, you i think so much of what you expect in the future, you've got to pay attention to what might have happened in the past. so, in our capacity, the president -- for american progress held a panel on wages and benefits in december of 14 with you, wage, and administrator david while, who recently did not get nominated into a spot. labor secretary tom perez. on the spot, and i am quoting,

just this last term, the governor of california signed a bill that creates a concept of client employer that gets to the whole figured workplace that david while has talked so much about. fissured workplace is the definition of franchised or franchisee. about the idea here than a century of labor laws are premised on employer, employee. that relationship. so, when you have these middlemen, and sub contracting, you really start to take away from that. from the protections between those at the top who contract for labor and those at the bottom. so, that client employer concept is if you hire workers through a labor contractor, as part of your regular course of business, and there is a whole definition for what regular course of business means, then, you as a client employer aren't responsible for all of the wage

liabilities, as if he were the employer. i think this has the potential to be a very important tool to get the insulation between the top and bottom layers. meaning, franchise oars and franchisees. i'm not going to ask you to respond to it, because i'm reading your statement. i will say this. a franchiser or franchisee is the most normal way you enter into the world of owning a small business. and i don't think this indicates that you would be working towards keeping that kind of structure there. and we also talked about gig economy, which we had a different conversation on. and i think there, you were acknowledging that that was different, maybe from a franchise or a franchisee. here is why i want you to respond to this. i think a lot of what has to do, on anybody coming into a

position of responsibility, you've got to probably justify some of the things in the past. i want to read this. i think character is important, and i want you to respond to it. in 1989, you took part in the seizure of the precedent of stanford university's office, in a protest known as a takeover 89. and i've got, from the archives of stanford library, which i would like to submit into the record, chairman. thank you. stanford's president described the ten iron occupation as his office on lawful and it's one of the greatest student protests in the last 16 years. three years after the takeover 89 and stanford, you were a key participant of the griswold nine, a group of radicals that seized and occupied a harvard dean's office. in 1985, you told the l.a. times, i guess, well, i was

arrested, but you know well, in the, and all the charges were dropped. please comment on that. that is on your record. it's in the archives at the -- library. how can that possibly be something that would make us feel confident about you filling the spot? >> thank you very much, senator. thank you for the time he spent with me. i know you had a lifelong discussion and i appreciate your questions that i am going to try to address. if i may just say, senator, one of the first cases i ever had was a case involving government workers who were trafficked into the country and forced to work behind barbed wire and under armed guards for as long as 18 hours a day. what we discovered in that case was it was not just their captors who had a role in that, there were contractors up the chain who knew about what was happening. >> you wouldn't generalize that into an example that would be descriptive of franchiser or

franchisees? >> in fact, franchisors and franchisees have nothing to do with it whatsoever. >> that was my question earlier. >> nothing to do with it whatsoever. for me, when everybody talks about how franchisers, when a franchise company is a way that especially immigrants gets into, they own their first business and get into the middle class, that is my family. that was my experience. so, -- >> were you at gavel now, do you want to comment on what happened at stanford and harvard? >> just one more thing. the clients employer is the concept of state law, not a federal law. i will assure this committee that my fidelity to federal law is complete. okay. so, we are talking about 19, what happened in 1989. okay. senator, let me just say this. i don't know if this is responsive, and i know you could stop me if it's not. i have an anecdote to share with you about this, which is, and my memory may be fussy

about this, but at my harvard graduation, that being of the law school, dean robert clark, that dean during the seat in, actually said, at the graduation ceremony, that it was good to see julie su sitting in my office, talking about how to address the issue she sat in about. rather than sitting in again. i share that with you because i do think there are many ways to make change. there are many ways to make the world a better place. and i have been somebody who sits down at the table and it's willing to talk to anybody about -- >> the past -- >> common ground. >> the fast is indicative of the future. thank you. >> thank you. >> senator smith? >> thank you, mister chair. and acting secretary su, i agree with you. there are many ways to make the world a better place.

and i have to say, looking at all the work you've done, i can see you have devoted your entire life to making the world a better place. so, i strongly support your nomination. you have done an outstanding job. as deputy secretary of the department of labor working as a key partner with secretary walsh. you have a well deserved reputation for inclusive leadership, working with workers and business and industry associations alike. to fulfill the mission of the department of labor and to implement the laws that congress has passed. that would be your job. as the secretary of labor. let's just remind everybody. the mission of the department of labor is to foster, promote, and develop the welfare of wage earners, job seekers, and retirees. in the united states. to improve working conditions, advanced opportunities for profitable employment, and to ensure work related benefits and rights. i think that's important to remember that is the mission that you would swear to uphold, if you, as i dearly hope,

become our next labor secretary. i want to note there has been some questions raised today about whether or not you have any experience negotiating large labor contracts. and you probably aren't even aware of this, because this just happened. but i understand that you played an important role in the contract negotiations between the international long shore and warehouse union and the pacific maritime association, and apparently, this morning, they have just reached a settlement. and an agreement, which is a very important moment. it is something that i am sure you are delighted to know and to be aware of, and maybe you could just take a minute to talk a bit about your experience. in this case, being a part of an important negotiation that impacts, really, the entire country. >> thank you thank. you very much for that, senator.

those are parties that i have known through my, before i came to this role. they are in the midst of a very important negotiation that is extremely consequential. not only for the parties, but certainly for the parties, and also for our supply chain. and our economy as a whole. i have been engaged with that party. our role is to help support them, stay at the table, help support them resolving their issues. i did recently impress upon them the urgency of the issue, and i am pleased that they have made real progress that has been announced that will still be a few issues that the parties need to resolve, but i think this is a good example of how a collective bargaining process really works. so, thank you very much for noting that, senator. >> i also think it's an example of how important it is for leaders like you to be

integrally in gauged in this. and i will offer for the committee, this is a quote from gene soroka, who is executive director of the ports of l.a., and he said, this is just like brand-new, he said communication has been daily, hourly, by the minute. acting labor secretary julie su has been on the phone with us, morning, noon, and night. that is the kind of leadership that you have demonstrated, and it is why you are respected by folks in both labor and in business, who have had an opportunity to work with you. because they value effectiveness and think of -- value someone who is seeking solutions to problems rather than making problems. speaking of making problems, mister chair, sometimes, it happens that big business by aside, collectively, they are going to flex their muscle and to try to do defeat a highly qualified candidate. oftentimes, those attacks have very little connection with the actual person or the record. in fact, they are about politics. and money.

and i think this is one of those situations, where you have big misses lobby putting up billboards in the states, senators on this committee attacking a nominee. you know what is going on here. they are trying to use their money to influence this process. it is our job, mister chair, to cut through all of that. and to get to the real person, and their qualifications. i think the record is clear that you are highly qualified to serve as labor secretary. and i am very grateful for the opportunity to support you, and i look forward to seeing you in that seat. thank you. >> thank you so much, senator. >> senator murkowski. >> thank you, mister chairman. acting secretary but su, welcome back to the committee. first question for you, as regarding a project that i had some time to spend with former secretary of labor, marty walsh. very hl in his capacity as the head ofhl

the departments of labor, and supporting the willow project. this is a resource development project in my state. that promises great opportunities for alaskan workers at a time when our economy is struggling. we recognize the value of that, the value this project creates over 2500 construction jobs, 300 long term jobs, and really contributes to our nation's energy security. so, as i have looked back over your tenure there at the department, i see that you have held 22 meetings with the epa, or climate related advocacy groups. not too many, i've noted, with industry or employer groups. so, the question for you this morning is whether he would continue secretary walsh's support for projects like the willow projects, that clearly create jobs, improve our energy security, and car regardless of

what part of the energy sector that they're in. so, it's one thing to say you supports renewable energy jobs. but in my state, we are still the basis of our economy is still resource production. resources this country relies on. so, your support for projects like willow project. >> thank you very much, senator. it is good to see you again. i know that specific project was not something we talked about last time, but many of the issues facing alaska were, and i appreciate that chance to speak with you than. so, secretary waltz and i have worked very closely over the last two years. he treated me as a true partner, and when the president nominated me to become a labor secretary, he said that he wanted me to help finish the job. so, the idea of continuity, the

idea of making sure we deliver on the many big, important things we are trying to do as we continue the robust economic recovery that we've had, or things that i am very, very committed to. and i stand by the decisions that were made during his tenure, and obviously, under the leadership of the presidents on the issue that you raise, the project you are talking about. >> you have told me you support the below project and the fact that it will provide significant jobs, which again, are very important to my states. but it's not just projects that have washington gone through that pipeline, so to speak. we have considerable opportunities when it comes to critical minerals, responsible mining projects that, again, will put in place significant economic opportunities and job opportunities, while producing that raw materials. materials so i would hope that again there would be a

recognition that even if you have to drill or dig. that these are jobs that this country needs. and at the department of labor and certainly the secretary of labor which support those. i want to ask about unemployment insurance, when you first came before this committee i expressed concern at the time, because in my state we have a very aged or a jiang system when it comes to our new eye a.i. system. we provided funding here in congress for the specific purpose of helping the states modernize the aging systems, we clearly need. it it's estimated costs about $50 million. let the state of alaska did not see any of this. that congress had allocated. this is my understanding that instead those funds were

dispersed for the oh al tiger team project. we don't know exactly what that is but we do know that states like alaska, who are desperately in need of these modernizations and updates, can't receive it. the question to you is, why do yo eldon not use the funding that we provided to support the creation of new ami systems and then it whether or not you recognize that this has to be a priority for us. >> yes, senator. thank. you to take the second question first i absolutely recognize why it has to be a priority as somebody who is at the state level during the pandemic, i know we have had conversations about the outdated technology and the need to really build the system so that it can be flexible and reliable enough that we have crises avoided. i want to know, because i don't

know the answer about alaska but i will tell you that one of the things i have been working on over the last two years is making sure that the two billion dollars or so in american rescue plan money was meant for states and is going out to states. some of it happened in phases. i know in some of my meetings we talked about how much has gone to a certain state for fraud prevention, for improving equity and access and the like. i will look into what has happened with alaska. it may be, some of this was done in conjunction with where states were in terms of their engagement with us. but our plan is to get the vast majority of that funding out to states and the way that they were intended by june. >> senator tehkummah. >> just to finish that, i think you are about to say that you

do support the willow project. >> yes. i support decisions that have been made in this administration. i think your point, said, there was that there are other projects are coming and i absolutely commit to you to sit down with you to understand the issues and to make sure that the people of alaska and the economy of alaska is heard and well represented in the decisions made at the department of labor if i am confirmed. >> i've made no secret of my admiration and appreciation for julie su, and i appreciate you being here again going through this. as someone who has spent eight years as the mayor and governor of colorado, i spent a lot of my time trying to recruit and attract people to the public service who in many cases could make enormously more money and more prestige or celebrity status, although your celebrity

status is pretty good here right now, i have to say. and i have to say that i cannot believe anyone i was ever able to hire brings to the table the skill set and experiences that you bring to the table. i think that as a child and's of small business owners your firsthand experience gives you insight into what it is like to run a franchise. to be a small business person as a first generation american. you understand what so many workers and families across this country are facing every day. and i think you are focused and being transformative for so many people is unbelievably powerful. lastly, as a mom you recognize the need to invest in our next generation of workers by making sure that plan works. we have a 21st century pipeline that does work and it is great for your daughters. is here through thick and thin for them. i was on he was taking exams today myself. out on ecology, in california. i look forward to getting

confirmed. i want to talk a little bit because i know if the partition was recovered thoroughly already and i don't want to be treated horse. it is too powerful and too important a phrase to refer to in such terms but we talked previously about how apprenticeship maybe needs a re-branding. a refreshment. because a big impediment is convincing not just students but their parents that this is an experience that might be a good fit for every individual it's going to be different but we need to re-brand so that it is not a drag down on opportunities for so many people. we need a society refresh. >> i agree with that. thank you so, much senator, for all your comments and for our conversations. and for your support. i agree it is funny. i just had this conversation yesterday with a large employer association who said the exact same thing. that one of the challenges we

face as we seek to expand the manufacturing sector in the united states and build a good jobs to manufacture semiconductor chips and all kinds of things across the spring nation, that we need to re-brand some of the jobs that have been for a long time, the jobs are new. there are ways to do them that are different. we also make the much more accessible to whole communities that might not have been included before. and so i think making it clear that a pathway to an apprenticeship for someone who is going to get a job that does not require a four year degree is just as valid and just as worthy of our respect and our praise as going to a four year college. that is something that i commit to you. i notice something you care to live out. that we should be engaged in that re-branding, use the

privilege of being in these seats and having our voices to make sure that that happens. and i think that will really help with the commitment of creating a very robust manufacturing industry in the united states. >> i know the ranking member, the chair agree with us on this. it's one of the ruling opportunities that is there for the taking but it just takes a will and great leadership at the top. which i think you can provide. on that it's 25 seconds but at some point maybe for the record you can look at it i know we talked a little bit about small business employers and their paperwork makes it hard for them to go through the apprenticeship process. they are so busy. at some point i hope that we can work together with the department of labor to facilitate that so there is less -- obviously understands security

forms but less by barack russi. >> i absolutely commit to working with you on, that some of. they're >> great. thank you. >> senator, casey acting secretary sue, great to be with you and thanks for your public service. i support your nomination proudly. and you are not only prepared to do this job and well qualified i think, but you will serve with distinction as you have in the department of labor. in your work already. i think it is important but a few things on the record which may help prevent me from getting my questions wrong. i will start with the mission of my department. i think it has been lost here in the discussion in washington. sometimes washington has a debate that is grounded in facts, and sometimes there is a lot of heavy air. we have heard a lot of that of late. here is a mission statement for the united states department of labour. it is a mission statement today. it was a mission statement under the prior administration. here it is. quote, to foster promoting development the welfare of job

seekers and retirees of the united states. and also to improve working conditions and advanced opportunities for profitable employment and a short work related benefits and rights. unquote. it is not the department of corporations. it is not the department of employers and employees and all that talk we heard here today. it is the department of labor! i want a department of labor that is fighting every day for workers. not as some have characterized it. it is a department that has to administer some 180 federal laws 450 million workers, in town million workplaces. there is a lot of work to do to protect workers. if corporations were doing their jobs, we would not need a department of labor. but you need one in the united states of america. a couple of things about unemployment insurance, this is where the hot air is in this debate about this nomination.

i want to clarify a few things. first, california is a huge state. they paid more claims than anybody. one in five of all unemployment claims in the country. is that correct? >> that is correct, senator. >> isn't it true that 95 to 98% of the fraud in california was not from the regular unemployment program that you administer, but actually from the specially created pandemic unemployment assistance program created by the united states senate in the house in the middle of the pandemic? is that true? >> that is true, senator. >> here is what we have. we have a special unemployment program set up for the pandemic. the worst crisis in 100 years. and a lot of things went well in a lot of things did not go very well and here is bloomberg law which says, this isn't me, he said. this quote, many of the fraudulent claims in californian across the country have stem from a federal virus relief program.

they put in parentheses the cares act. 96 united states and others voted yes on this. it launched unable to support independent contractors and other workers, who were not previously eligible for benefits. from the department of labor last year they directed the states to begin paying benefits to claimants under this program who has yet to provide documentation verifying their past earnings. the ability of states to accept self certification allowed vulnerable workers to get faster payments but also expose the system the state system to pay out false claims. unquote. that is bloomberg law talking about what the congress did, and that the states had to administer. so i think it is pretty clear that there has been a lot of hot air in a lot of fiction flying around washington about what happened in california. i hope there is a similar examination of every states

unemployment insurance record as well. here's my question. for the minute that i have left. it is about a topic that you made reference to with senator harrison. we are trying to do everything we can to phase out minimal way to get rid of it. it is not good for our workers or for workers with disabilities. we are trying to get rid of it, to be blunt. i want to phase it out and make sure that people with disabilities have a fair shot in the workplace. senator daines and i have a bipartisan bill, the transformation and competitive indicative employment act, to lift up workers with disabilities in their wages. i want to ask you again, i know this is just a reiteration. what is administration going to do to ensure that we have competitive integrative employment for people with disabilities, and specifically how are you enforcing the 14 c requirements? >> thank you very much for our meeting, senator. and for this question which is very important.

so, competitive integrated employment is the north star. it is where we want to make sure that all workers with disabilities are able to access the same good jobs that you're talking about, getting the training that they need to succeed in those jobs and the supports that they need in the workplace. and pathways to upward mobility in those drops. just as workers without disabilities have. and at the department of labor, our sub agency the office of disability unemployment policy is laser focused on that work. i have been engage with them over the last two years as deputy secretary on making sure that we are finding every possible way to expand such programs, to support employers who are adopting those programs and to provide technical assistance to employers to do outreach. to workers with disabilities. >> i know we have to conclude.

we will work with you on this. i look forward to working with you on. it, thanks mister chairman. >> senator marshall. all, right thank you chairman. thank you for being here. miss suu, as has been alluded to here, nationally we had a significant problem with the unemployment insurance benefits. what i want to talk about is the statute of limitations. we approach 200 billion dollars, properly played unemployment insurance benefits. and many of those statue invitations on this case will be expiring in 2025. we have legislation that would extend the statute of limitation on fraud for another five years. there would be consistent for the statute of limitations. for ppp and covid fraud. how do you feel a bit extending the start to limitations on those cases? >> thank you very much, senator. i know i've said this already but i feel like it bears repeating, that's the fraud ways of abusing the system was unacceptable and intolerable.

that is why it's likely steps i took and it is why the department of labor i have been so focused on making sure that we are creating an unemployment insurance system in conjunction with states that is going to stop the fraud at the front door and deliver benefits to eligible individuals and be the safety net is intended to be for workers who are out of a job through no fault of their own. and to be good stewards of taxpayer money. as i have also the few times today, but not about the specific issue so i do appreciate your question, i have full deference to the authority of this body end of the decisions that congress makes about the right policies, in this case and others. and if that is something that congress were to pass, and interest of the department of labor to enforce, that if confirmed as labor secretary i

-- would >> there is a lot -- of still out there and these cases are still ongoing. we could gain back some of those -- if we continue doesn't estimations. >> you, know senator. that is a very good question. i don't know when i don't believe that there are new fraudulent payments going out every day in the same way that we have talked about. obviously the pandemic unemployment assistance -- >> there are cases it already should have been open that have not been closed yet. so extending the statute of impatience would allow going after the old ones. >> i will say, senator, one thing is that the department of labor and our office of the inspector general has also been doing work to investigate cases, to try to recover money where possible. and i do think that is an important part of the fight against fraud. >> i want to turn and talk about the rules on joint employer definitions that have gone through significant stages in the past decade. previous administrations provided a clear cut defined

inaccurate definition of a joint employer. and again, you may have answered this question already. we are bouncing in between committees. under your leadership this rule has rescinded is not being replicated with anything and this is cost quite a bit of uncertainty for businesses and to that and would you agree that an employer should be considered a joint employer only if directly and actually and immediately exercising significance control of the primary elements of employment? >> senator, thank you so much to that question. the joint employer rule that was put in place by the prior administration was actually vacated by a federal judge. a federal judge said that roe could not stand. as a result, the department of labor rescinded it. what's that date was a restored the state of the law to the place it was before that rule came into place. which was based on decades of

federal cases in turning who would a joint employer is and under what circumstances it would apply. >> do you agree with what i define a joint employer was? a second ago? i'm gonna go through that again. would you agree that an employer should be considered a joint employer only if they directly actually immediately is so significant control over the primary elements of employment? >> thank you for that question, senator. the joint employer test, i know you know this, is a fact specific cast. it is a test based on the relationship between two or more -- >> needs to be a yes or no question. >> that summary is not accurate

statement of it. but i think to your point -- >> lastly, i understand that business has been waiting for your for an answer for the department of labor. do you think they deserve an answer sooner so that they can make plans? -- then uncertainty. >> the regulatory certainty is very very important. i know that for my family's history of having a small business as well as my extended families current status of business owners. the joint employer test as it stands is based on case law that has been developed over several decades. the department of labor does not have in its current agenda a plan to issue another rule about that. >> okay. thank you.

i yield. >> thank, you senator. marshall senator cassidy? >> thank, you miss suu. wonderful personal story and you've handed herself very well in a very stressful situation. i would like to clear up a couple things that were said. senator smith suggested there have been a final agreement achieved in the international tournaments strike. it is not the case. just for the record. the pacific maritime association stated last night and reached a tentative agreement that we're still on things with negotiating major issues that are yet to be discussed. much less reach agreement on. just for the record. secondly, i have to disagree with my good friend bob casey. the department of labor should also be about employees. not just unions. and i am sure that you meant that, but it implied not. and there are a lot of gig workers, freelancers who objected to ab5 who would feel as if their interest are not accurately represented. and that is a lot of this discussion has been about. lastly, part of our discussion

you might guess that i'm very suspicious of -- but regarding the abc test that the prior administration's rule has been vacated by a district court in the zone of appeal is not foreshore that you would continue to be vacated and indeed i am told it is consistent with -- versus burning from the supreme court, if you got that correctly. and, lastly the rule put out by this administration to redefine roles much more consistent with an abc test as opposed to that which has been -- i say all of that for the record and then again mister senator casey thank you for your indulgence. >> if i could just say one thing, said there. i accept your suspicion of attorneys and say that i love, doctors and mothers what you will want me to say to you as i said once that liver surgeons saved her life at one point. and so i thank you and your

profession for all you have done. including for my mom. >> thank you. >> let me also say for the record that the mission statements that i read from was not about one kind of worker. union forces non-union. it was the mission of the departments to foster promote and developed the welfare of three groups. wage earners and job seekers and retirees. and i think that should be kept in mind as opposed to a different name for the court for having corporations as opposed to employees. but we can continue this a bit i guess. thanks very much, i will read the statement for chairman sanders. this concludes our hearing. thank, you miss suu, for joining us today. i ask unanimous consent to enter into the letter 68 letters from labor and advocacy organizations, businesses and individuals in support of miss suu's nomination. as a reminder, the committee

will vote on miss suu's nomination next wednesday at 10 am. in this hearing room. for any senators who wish to add additional questions, questions for the record will be due tomorrow, friday april 21st at 5 pm. >> and i am sorry. i forgot to do. thus i ask unanimous consent to enter legault is not positioned to miss suu's nomination, representing 50 organizations a business groups expressing concerns. >> without objection. the committee stands adjourned.

independent journalist aaron reed discusses transgender life and equality including proposed transgender athlete legislation. although metonymy matt rosendale