>> next, a heritage foundation discussion looking into china's human rights record and the beijing winter lipids. >> hello and welcome. today, our athletes are in beijing preparing to compete in the on base which opened this friday. we are already hearing they have had to download apps to track their health and movement. we hear they are being warned that anybody who dares protest

or say anything negative could be prosecuted. why are sons and daughters or young people put in this position to compete under these circumstances? it is a really important topic for discussion. welcome to this conversation. we are going to open the program today with a statement from michael mccaul. he has represented the 10th district of texas since 2005 and he currently serves as the ranking member of the house foreign affairs committee. >> this is the greatest military threat to the united states and our allies. whether it is debt trapped ponzi, the brutal oppression of hong kong, the looming threat they pose to taiwan, the

covid-19 cover-up that turned what could have been a local epidemic into a global pandemic, killing more than 6 million people worldwide. or the general set -- the genocide the are committee against ethnic and religious minorities. the ccp committee -- is committee some of the most horrific crimes of our time. they are an enemy of freedom and democracy. the others are supposed to be the most prestigious sporting event in the world but the international alibris committee has stained the reputation by turning a blind eye to these atrocities and handing the ccp the honor of hosting the 2022 winter lipids. the world must wake up to the horrors of the ccp human rights abuses. as we speak, over one million people in shenzhen province are held in internment camps. they are forced under labor of

conditions rain washing, forced sterilization and even death. the ioc allowing what i am calling the genocide games to go forward is a stain on the olympics. i am deeply disturbed that these games will take place in the shadow of concentration plans, clarifying the ccp and normalizing their genocide is civilly unacceptable. including -- putting u.s. libyans in jeopardy as they travel to china is undetectable. american athletes who have spoken out against the ccp or while in the country could face arrest and up to life in prison. we cannot turn a blind eye to the ccp without properly preparing our athletes for the just -- dystopian reality of china. i supported the double medic boycott because it is a way to stand up for american values

without punishing our athletes. we can root for team usa without giving the ccp the propaganda opportunity and victory to spread lies and whitewash their crime. if our other bids speak out against the atrocities, the state department should ensure they are protected. just as jesse owens showed in our filler that the area nation was not superior, i know our athletes will show the chinese that we will take on the gold and we will take it back home to the united states. >> am so grateful for his leadership on this issue. that was a powerful statement. i am so excited to start our discussion here today. we have three great panelists to talk to. so excited to welcome this leading hero of the freedom movement here in the united

states. as a center for the boston celtics, he used his voice to speak out against tierney and justice and particularly to call out the chinese government for their human rights violations. i have dr. lee edwards, distinguished fellow and vice chair of the victims of communism memorial foundation. he is one of the largest analogs fighters against tierney and common is him. he has written more than 25 books. i am excited to have him with us and then we have olivia, a senior policy analyst. she too has been actively running about china and particularly their human rights abuses in the on base. i would like to have you open up the subject by talking all the bit about what the bided

administration got wrong in the approach to the elevator. why are athletes in the situation they are in? that is a fantastic question. the limits should have been a slamdunk for u.s. leadership. clearly call out china for the series of abuses, ongoing general ride, crimes against humanity being cared out as represent mccaul stated, 1.8 million and 3 million held in reeducation camps today. we all bore witness to what happened in hong kong where freedom was absolutely undermined there and, of course, all of us have experienced the ramifications from the covid-19 pandemic where we saw the chinese communist party actively lying to the international community about the infectiousness of the disease in the early days of the pandemic.

and in spite of all of this, china's horrible track record, the international olympic committee selected them to have the games. china should never have been selected to host the games. it is the most prestigious international sporting event and it is a privilege to host, not given to a come -- communist leadership. they could have gathered in the international coalition to pressure the international olympic committee to postpone the games for the purposes of selecting a new one but we didn't do that. we saw the biden administration kicking the can done the road until the very last minute when they announced a diplomatic boycott. for those who are not familiar, it means that american athletes can still participate, there is no high level u.s. government participation in order to be there and to grant credence to the games.

this was a last-ditch effort, it was the bare minimum that the biden administration could have done and it was done at the final hour. i would have loved to have seen just the biden administration seizing upon this moment, recognizing that there is a consensus on threat that china poses, not only to america, but to the world. and they even missed out on the opportunity, they were beat to the punch by lithuania who announced a diplomatic boycott before the united states. they were not even, when we announced our diplomatic boycott, it wasn't in concert with oral lies around the globe who it would have been so powerful to send a shared statement that countries all over the globe think that what is happening in china is unacceptable. i think it was a real missed opportunity for u.s. leadership and i really wish we had seen them take a stronger distance. katharine: enes, i'm turning to you, the chinese communist party does not represent the olympic

core values of the excellence, of respect, of friendship and they are brutal dictatorship. you have been called the conscience of the nba. what's your perspective on this as an athlete? enes: you know, when you look at what they represent, you know they engage in censorship, they do not respect human rights and they don't, they hide the truth. and to me, diplomatic boycott is good obviously, it shows something but it is not enough. all of the athletes out there to say enough is enough, this is bigger than sports and i actually call it, i think representative mccaul called it really well when he said that the genocide games, i call it the medal of shame. it's not more important than your morals, your principals and your values. i feel like all of the athletes need to stand up for something

bigger than basketball and i'm not going to say that where genocide is happening. the problem starts where the international committee, they sleep in the same bed with china and i think athletes need to use it. katharine: i have to ask you, you are so outspoken where many, many other people are afraid to speak out? are you paying a price? if you are paying a price, do you still think it's worth it? enes: i mean, someone has to do it. you look at our time right now, unfortunately, there are so many, every athlete, actor, singer, rapper, or people who have platforms are scared to say a word when it comes to china because there is so much money involved, the business involved, endorsement deals involved and

you look at the players, shoe sales and jersey sales. they are scared to say a word when it comes to china. i was like, you know what, there are more things important than money and business in our time. i cannot just stay silent where mothers and brothers are getting tortured in concentration camps. you know what, i'll be the bad guy and telling how it is. i just wish that more athletes would join me. it is a lonely road. i always say god is with me. katharine: god bless you for what you're doing. i have to say your courage and your leadership is an unbelievable inspiration, thank you, we are so grateful for what you are doing. i would like to turn to you now, lee, a number of us have touched on the human rights abuses. let's talk a little bit more

about broader threat that china poses. i know you have some prepared remarks. i would love to hear what you have to say. lee: we have to understand who we're exactly dealing with. there is an old line, know your adversary. and so what i have tried to do here with these remarks, very brief, is to try to measure just why communist china is what it is and why the chinese communist party is what it is. i have gone back and our old friends, the late great who came up with the six traits of a total tarean state. ideology, a single party led by one man, three, a secret police, four, party controlled of mass communications, five, party control of the military and, six, a centrally directed economy.

so i thought it would be useful to say how does communist china measure up. let's take a look at the six areas. where is china? number one, an official ideology, china is ruled by an official marxist ideology with so-called chinese characteristics. two, a single political party led by one man. well, there is one and only one party in china, the communist party led by one and only one man, who has been elevated to the status of a demagogue like mao. three, a second police. beijing depends upon a police force supervised by the communist party and directed against all so-called enemies of the regime. in point of fact, the national network of forced labor camps still exists in china and is

populated by untold numbers of political prisoners. number four, party control of mass communications. through the 90 million members and unlimited budget, the c.c.p. controls all means of mass communications, especially the social media. the majority of the china people know only what they read or see or hear on a government-run media. for them, for example, there is no such thing as the tiananmen square massacre. number five, party control of the military, all major military decisions are approved by the central committee of the communist party in accordance with mao's "maxim," political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. finally, six, a centrally controlled economy. now here one could argue

socialism with chinese characteristics is some kind of a difference from out and out max -- marxism, hard market socialism in which all decisions are made by the c.c.p. you know, visitors to china, i was there a little over a decade ago are often misled by the many skyscrapers that beijing, shanghai, and other major cities. those skyscrapers are not capitalist observations. they are owned by the c.c.p., the p.l.a. or the sons and daughters of the party elite. so only with regard to a centrally controlled economy can it be argued that china is perhaps authoritarian, not total

tarean. but there is no sign and quite the reverse that communist china is becoming more liberal politically, quite the reverse. such a total tarean regime deserves to be shunned by the international community beginning with the winter olympics. katharine: lee, one of the great projects that you have been committed to and you have been involved with for a long time is the victims of communism memorial foundation. i know you all are planning to open a physical museum next year if i'm not mistaken, no, later this year, correct? lee: this year. katharine: you have a sense of what americans know of communism, how well do you think most americans understand the depravity of the communist

regime? lee: that is one of the reasons why we formed the foundation, why we are having our museum open up this spring. that is we believe if you tell the truth about china, about communist china, we'll realize they are not just an ordinary run-of-the-mill competitor or even adversary, but they are dedicated and motivated and committed to becoming a major power, not only in southeast asia and to be once again the middle kingdom, but to challenge the united states of america for leadership of the world. we must take appropriate action. here is an opportunity which we had has has been outlineuped with regard to the olympics. we failed. we must take advantage again and take a look, for example, at the world health organization or the world trade organization. there are so many ways in which

we can challenge china, we're not talking here about dropping a bomb on beijing. we're talking about taking appropriate political and strategic action against a total tear an regime which if not challenges will continue to expand its power and authority throughout the world. katharine: i'm worried, though. you talk about the importance of telling the truth, i think that is so critical, but i worry that you can't tell the truth. enes has talked about the incredible commercial pressure on athletes. peter schweitzer's amazing new book "red-handed" just came out where he talks about the extraordinary corruption and what he calls elite capture by the chinese communist party of our political leaders, of the biden family, of our corporate leaders, do you think it's even possible these days in the united states to tell the truth about china? lee: i think it's possible that

if one major corporation were to take that one step and challenge and say we're not going to be dictated strictly on the basis of economic return. if one, just one corporation would do that, i really believe that like that flock of blackbirds, many other corporations and companies would do it and we're talking to some people in the capitalist community, if you will, about that and so stay tuned. katharine: ok, great. enes, i want to come back to you, i have to say my heart really goes out to our athletes. i think about them, it's our sons and daughters. most of them are young. i think i fear a lot of them really have no understanding of what a communist regime is like. and i'll just mention heritage has a paper that is about to come out which talks about the

fact that these apps that the athletes have to have on their phones to track their health and their movement are actually getting access to other information on their phones. i think it's going to be a real shock for our athletes. let me ask you, what do you think we should be doing for our athletes? i think most people want to support our athletes, but we don't want to support the chinese regime. enes: right. whenever i had a conversation with an athlete that was about to go to the olympics, right, i had been like, first, i had told them listen, first, you need to understand where you're going and also that team u.s.a., i believe, it was on the news, team u.s.a. just put a statement out that said we want our athletes, the c.c.p. is going to tap into their phones. so this is mind blowing. also, the other thing is, whenever i had a conversation with one of the athletes, i kept

bringing the missing tennis player, right. i was like, look what they did to their open tennis player, peng shuai, are we really going to trust c.c.p. with our own players. and there was another article out there where the chinese communist party said while the athletes are in china, they're not allowed to make any kind of statement about any political stuff, right. that's pretty much freedom of speech. when i have a conversation with athletes, i'm like listen, would you really think about this if your mother, your daughter, your sister, your wife was in one of the concentration camps, would you still go to one of those games? would you still -- i understand -- i get this question a lot, well, but the athletes are working so hard,

for how many years to get to that level. in sports right now, all of the gold medals with the world you can win is not more important than people's lives. i feel like we need to understand what we are sending our athletes to. it's just sad and it's just a shame. katharine: great comments. olivia, so talk a little bit more, what can we do? how do we respond in this case? olivia: i think that there is a really important role at this point for both the business community and also civil society and ordinary americans. as the olympics are going to start airing starting on february 4. for one thing, there should not be a single day that goes by during the olympics that we are not covering the c.c.p.'s human rights violations the way that they threaten national security, the way that they act

economically inappropriately. if you're a journalist, ordinary american citizen, post articles, interview survivors now here in the united states who are outspoken in condemning china for what they have experienced. if you're a business, and particularly if you are a part of the olympic sponsors program as many american companies like coca cola, airbnb, intel and others are, you should be reconsidering whether or not you want to advertise during the olympics and nbc itself should be thinking twice about airing the opening ceremonies of the games which if the 2008 olympics when beijing hosted the last time were any indication will simply be a propaganda mechanism for the chinese communist party. as ordinary americans, we actually have a choice about whether or not we are going to

help the funding that does come from the advertising revenue that will be playing during the games, we have a choice whether or not we actually want to watch the games and intentionally and inadvertently cause the chinese communist party to profit. if people have degrees to make in the coming days about the extent they will participate. i can't underscore enough how important it is to be educated about what is happening because no one should be unaware of the on going genocide and crimes against humanity, no one should say they didn't know what happened in hong kong. so much to be educated about and so many incredible uighur americans, hong kong americans, china christians who are out there outspoken and speaking and focus like enes kanter, they are

violating their citizens. lee: one other possibility might be boycotting those companies who are part of the sponsorship list. there have been times in the past when young americans vote left and right have gone into the business of boycotting and applying straight direct economic pressure on companies. that i think would probably get their attention. katharine: i was going to ask you to expand on the sort of related question which is in thinking about the different steps that we can take, what do you think china actually cares about? what are the things that you think we could be doing as a country or individuals that is actually going to impact the chinese leadership? can you speculate on that? lee: i do think that, of course,

it would be economic, they're concerned about that, although their economy is growing fairly well the last quarter or so, 3%, 4%, something like that, but less than it has been so they're very sensitive to that. i think making it very clear that we support taiwan. this after all is an island nation of this 22 million people. they are democratic. they are responsive to the people and the idea that we should allow communist china just to invade them and take them over is ridiculous and sets the most incredible grotesque kind of example for the future. so economically politically

there are so many things i mentioned, the world health organization, many other international organizations if the united states and other nations of the west were to challenge chinese communist membership and those kind of international organizations, that would send a very clear signal as well. president xi is not as strong as he pretends to be. it seems to me that only somebody who seems somewhat insecure would spend so much time building himself up as he has, we're talking about, you know, his kind of thought and equalling that of mao and karl marx. there is much that can be done. here is an opportunity and i predict that coming out of the olympics, whatever may happen specifically, there is going to be a lot more united front

against communist china. you can feel those elements coming together right now. katharine: well, i was really impressed to look at all of the news stories today reporting on our athletes being there. across the board, they are uniformly critical of china, i thought that was good news. lee, you and i spent a lot of our career with communist in the former soviet union, what are the lessons we can learn from that experience that helped to bring down that version of communism, i think one of the ones that to me is probably the number one most important factor was when ronald reagan came out and called the soviet union evil. and i don't see our current leaders doing that, do you?

leonardo dicaprio well, i think we're talking about the genocide games, i think that's a very powerful phrase. i think the idea that pinning and labeling communist china as a practitioner of genocide, that i think is such a powerful resonant charge and accusation and i believe that the british parliament passed a resolution, i believe also that the french parliament has passed a resolution condemning china for genocide. the former secretary of state for mr. trump, mike pompeo referred to what was going on with the uighurs as genocide and the present secretary of state, mr. blinken has also talked about it being genocide. so when you get both president

biden and president trump's secretary of state saying the same thing, that i think should get people's attention. so i think we should continue to press hard to designate and to describe china, communist china as a genocidal nation. i think that's powerful. katharine: yeah, i would agree. i think going forward and really emphasizing the genocide game, it's going to be impactful. >> i have questions coming in from the audience so i want to give them a chance to be heard. let me throw this question out to any of you three who would like to take a shot at this. in many respects, beijing as host of the 2022 olympic games was the decision of the i.o.c., which has maintained a conciliatory approach against china. are there any actions that we as allies could take to insure due

diligence with the i.o.c. in the future? any shouts or insights? olivia: i'm happy to take a crack at it. i think unfortunately the international olympic committee, although not entirely impervious to international pressure has proven itself just a completely unfaithful actor. as was mentioned earlier, in the case of the china tennis player peng shuai, we sawed thomas bach aiding and abetting in the party hostage taking of peng shuai by holding a video conference with her. it was every sort of hostage video she would say, she said exactly the lines that the chinese communist party would hear and the i.o.c. granted credence to that. this should have caused all of the international olympic sponsors to pause a little bit and look at actually a positive contrast to their own lack of

response in the case of the women's tennis association. the women's tennis association said we are willing to lose money and no longer hold the games in china over peng shuai. we can't believe that the c.c.p. is doing this to their own player. what will they do as enes rightfully said, to players of other countries. so i think that the business community has a really important role to play here in rethinking some of their associations with the i.o.c. and as i mentioned before, i thought the biden administration would have taken that stronger stance, would have sought to pressure the international olympic committee by building an international coalition for condemning them for picking it in the first place. they don't have financial means of accountability to the international community, so i think there might even be -- it might be worth rethinking some of the elements of the olympic charter that make the i.o.c.

relatively impervious to outside and external pressure and financially so as well. yeah, those are my thoughts on the issue. great question. katharine: great answer. enes, do you feel you are making any headway with your fellow nba members? is your speaking out having an impact and opening people's eyes? enes: you know, whenever we have a conversation in private obviously, i will have a conversation about what people are going through just because of when i started to talk about all of the issues, not just uighurs, but tibetan and hong kongers, people around the league, not just the athlete, but front office people, people who work for the nba, even the refs wanted to learn what was is going on. whenever we sit down and have a conversation, they always

understand and acknowledge that obviously the genocide and they know what's going on, but unfortunately they are too scared to say anything just because of obviously the business. that breaks my heart the most. they know what is going on. they know what is done by the c.c.p. because of their stand with nike or they have the big endorsement deals or jersey or shoe sales in china, they pray for me. my one side, it breaks my heart for them to remain silent, but you know what, i'll do everything i can to educate them. i cannot stop just because of all of that business, but it does break my heart, yes. katharine: interesting.

i think the whole issue with fear, of course, is critical in all of these fights. it was a huge issue in the soviet union. how do you persuade people from overcoming their fear? educating people so that their moral outrage is greater than their fear. i'm just wondering, it strikes me, for example, with the case of the uighurs, do you feel enough of the story is getting out there and if so, who is really pushing the story out there and what more needs to be done? olivia: the moment for bravery for americans, for the u.s. government because there are people in china who do not have

the option to not be brave. there are uighurs, uighur american, i have uighur american friends whose parents are back who i have one friend in particular who she has a daughter of her own who has never met her grandma because she is held in a camp. there are hong kongers who have friends who are part of the pro democracy movement who are locked up indefinitely in china for speaking out in defense of liberty and freedom. we are all sitting comfortably in our chairs watching the olympics in a relatively comfortable place. this is not an opportunity for silence as you said, katie, this season aopportunity for being outspoken for calling on the u.s. government to take several steps even beyond the olympics,

we have to be thinking, the c.c.p. is thinking about this. we need to be there saying we're going to sanction every official who is complicit against the uighurs. the people who can no lr live with that. we need to be pressing the bite commerce yesterday. not even in the future. this should have already been done. i think this is a real opportunity for leadership. >> i think they're people in china today just as were in eastern and central europe, --

who was a lutheran pastor in eastern germany. he began standing up and talking in his church and in his congregation against the communist party. what happened? was it because he kate -- she kept up with that week after week after week. more people came to his church services and more and more people began demonstrating within three months. within three months, one million people began collecting in east berlin and amended and into communism and eastern germany. and happen. the world did not come down. it is possible for people to speak out, to ignite what i think is an innate desire of freedom that is within every single person of whatever background, whatever nationality that they are.

we in america must support them, help them, encourage them, as much as we possibly can. >> i love this point, because one of the stories that is coming out in venues as a way the chinese authorities are suppressing -- out in the stories today is the way chinese authorities are suppressing voices. we need to keep an eye on them as much as we keep an a on our athletes. they are the brave ones. they know that the police are visiting them, monitoring their calls, yet they are still speaking out. i think they deserve our support. we have probably time for one last question. there are so many questions -- [applause] i wish there was more timely. i have to choose. what can we do to support the team usa olympians, but not

support the ccp? you love our question. any thoughts? i know you think they should not be there, but come on, we have to support them. >> i feel like we should support team usa. i wish there were not attending the genocide games, but i support them. i just became a citizen. there are players, i hope they can win a gold medal again. i think one thing we need to do is we need to educate our athletes because they obviously have a huge platform and there are so many kids out there idolizing them, not just through social media. all of the kids are following in their footsteps. we need some educated athletes out there to amplify some things

that are happening around the world. all i can do right now is just to cheer for team usa to win the gold, i guess. >> i think we absolutely have to support team usa. i think the olympics are such an exciting, patriotic moment. i know i said earlier that you have a choice about watching the games. i do think one way to get around some of the advertising would be to watch -- you can watch in prime times and you can still watch and share and support the fact that our american athletes are there displaying the hard work that many of them have worked their entire lives for this opportunity. we have to be there condemning all parts of the chinese communist party. it was because of the decision to select beijing as host that

we are in this moral predicament in the first place. it is a continued condemnation for china, but we will still continue to cheer on our team. >> should make the distinction between the chinese people and the chinese communist party. there are so many, as i say, chinese to are not satisfied with being told what to do or what to say or what to believe or what to practice in terms of their faith. those are the people that we need to support. at the same time, we condemn the chinese communist party, which is a totalitarian party. >> thank you all. let us close out by saying we pray for the safety and success of our athletes. i think the admonition, i love olivia what you said, this is a moment for bravery. we ought to go forward with the #genocideolympics.

thank you so much for being here. thank you olivia, thank you lee, thank you all for being here. >> the senate will vote on nominations including university of pennsylvania president to serve as u.s. ambassador to germany. on tuesday, two hearings for the nominations of shalonda young and others. they will appear before the senate homeland security committee. at 2:30 p.m. eastern, live on c-span.com -- c-span.org, they will testify before the senate budget committee. on c-span three former employees of the washington football team testify before the house oversight committee about

reports of sexual harassment, verbal abuse, and discrimination within the organization. it comes the day after the team is expected to announce its new name. watch this week live on the c-span network or on c-span now. head over to c-span for scheduling information live or on-demand anytime. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> a new mobile video out from c-span, c-span now. download today. >> u.s. secretary commerce secretary talked with politico about her work in the biden administration and being the first female governor of rhode island. >> i'm joined today by commerce secretary gina raimondo. she became the first female governor of rhode