what we've realized is we can try very hard to keep lead of the hackers but what we need to do is think about how we minimize the need for customers to put their private information on to web sites. >> right now there are legal prohibitions from the private sector what we want to do is allow those barriers to be removed so that you could share

information on threat signatures very narrowly defined so very technical type of information. but for example of the various act that is have taken place, if we could broadly share that information then when one hack occurs one place hopefully at network speed we can widely share that vulnerability and so more broadly protect everyone. >> tonight at 8:00 eastern. >> on thursday members of the house agriculture subcommittee heard testimony from federal and state agriculture officials on their agency's response to the 2014-2015 flu outbreak that killed an estimated 48 million edible fowl in the u.s. the witnesses said an outbreak could be as bad or worse than

the last one. this is an hour and 45 minutes. rep. rouzer: the hearing will come to order. i'd like to thank our witnesses for appearing this morning. i appreciate the attendance of our colleagues here on the panel. as we begin our formal review of the recent outbreak of highly pathogenic avian influenza. or the bird flu.

as we will hear from witnesses this was without a doubt one of the worst if not the worst animal disease outbreaks our country has ever faced. more than 220 farms were infected in 21 states, nearly 48 million chickens and turkeys with depopulated, and hundreds of million dollars at and spent. the subcommittee has been following these events for some months, and specifically chose to delay uniform oversight until the disease was under control to prevent the attention in the middle of a crisis. as we begin the review, let me state that it is not -- it is not -- our intent to be a quarterback in a shape or form, rather we want to learn from experience. we want to highlight what was done right by identifying areas where improvement was made where opportunities for further improvement exist and most importantly figure out where we need to focus as we prepare for another possible outbreak this fall.

as most observers know, the heat of the summer is primarily responsible for the interruption and disease transmission, but as fall approaches and temperatures begin to drop, we need to be prepared for more cases possibly covering a larger geographical area. a number of issues have arisen that need further discussion, for instance the approval of an effective vaccine is on the horizon. if we utilize this tool we will need to ensure that trade is not disrupted. questions persist regarding the efficacy of the industry's bio security plans while many forms have exceptional bio security procedures and mechanisms in place, some observers have raised questions regarding the degree to which bio security protocols are being followed. we are certainly aware of some of the resource limitations that delayed depopulation, disposal and disinfection early and as repopulation commences, several members have heard from constituents raising questions related to the challenges that

lie ahead. we recognize that preventing further outbreaks is a critical priority. that said, we are mindful of the financial burdens producers are facing particularly if they are unable to get back up and running in a timely fashion. after all, as my grandfather used to tell me, time is money. we will likely also hear about concerns related to indemnification. the laws clear regarding the payment of fair market value for animals that are destroyed. it is defined in determined, that is subject to some discretion. we are faced with a set of issues that are complex, and we will welcome any and all suggestions on how the subcommittee might be helpful as we move forward. in particular, i am aware of the program created for disease management and prevention. i wonder if it might not be time to examine whether similar mechanisms and the animal health

protection act might yield a more responsive mechanism to facilitate a quicker and perhaps a cheaper and more effective response. i will now yield to the chairman of the committee, if he has any comments. rep. peterson: no, i just like to hear from witnesses. rep. rouzer: thank you. i also see that we have the ranking member, colin peterson. if you have any comments. rep. peterson: thank you chairman rouzer, for holding this hearing today. my district was ground zero of the outbreak that has happened, and as everyone knows, the avian influenza has impacted poultry in my district and other places in the country. i think the usda and my state of minnesota has done good work, and i want to single out dr. clifford and dr. hartmann for

the work that they have done. and the secretary -- as i have gone through this i have been on the phone i don't know how many times, talking about problems that have arisen, and he really responded -- i don't think you could of got a better job. this situation hasn't been perfect, but perfection is hard to come by when you are in the middle of a crisis. as the chairman said, now is the time to go over the lessons we've learned in figure out how this will help us develop a better plan if we have this kind of an outbreak in the future. there are three areas that like to address today that have been brought forward by my growers. one of them is simplifying the indemnification process, that people concerned with the amount of paperwork -- one grower had

77 pages of paperwork. we have to do a better job of figuring out how to deal with that. the other thing that comes up is this case manager issue. just last week, i had a grower i met with, he was on his seventh case manager. in that particular situation they are still rolling them over. somehow or another we have to figure out a way to address that, and dr. hartmann, i don't know if minnesota has researchers to help with that, but i may ask you about that late i also look forward to status updates on the workable vaccine. dr. swayne, we appreciate the work you've done, and available vaccine is very much on the agenda of my growers as they repopulate this fall -- that is

something they want to have in their toolbox. i want to discuss that with you and how that is going to come forward. i also want to look at ways speed up the depopulation effort. that is an area that i think we have learned a great deal about. especially in the layer operation, it has been a real problem. it's one area we can focus more on. i think the chair in the ranking member for holding today's hearing and i look forward to the witnesses' testimonies and the question-and-answer period. i yield back. rep. rouzer: thank you, mr. peterson. as always, our ranking member

has impeccable timing. mr. costa. rep. costa: thank you, tithing is all about what we do, and the timing for this hearing is today, because the avian flu that has taken various regions of this country is serious, and it is traumatic and it has been devastating when we look at the amount of flocks of poultry that has been impacted. not only has my colleague, the ranking member, stated in his opening, but also in california, we have had a number of poultry farmers and processors that have been impacted, some in my home district. that was where the first reported cases of avian influenza took place. unlike the midwest we have been

able to contain it, and we have been able to control it. my heart goes out to those in other parts of the country where it has continued to progress, to keep producers in my state actions that were taken by the united states department of agriculture and the department of food and they were very positive. we were lucky, bottom line, in the outbreak. it didn't spread due to a combination of factors and i'm looking forward to the testimony today as to how we can take those examples and also others that are being implemented around the country. our program, we think, is strong as it relates to bio security. one of the reasons are producers

controlled the spread -- but there are other examples that i hope we will hear about here this morning. as we know, it has been a part of the various fly with -- the fly always of avian influenza that has caused the impact. while regulations can only do so much, i think we need to do more to provide an avian influenza -- there needs to be more research. one thing we have heard -- the need for more investment in the southeast poultry research laboratory, and i'm pleased that dr. swayne is here to testify on the. while the poultry lab is a critical role, especially with

the development apostle vaccination, we also have research done in institutions in california, like at fresno state, my alma mater where we have had a lot of efforts to provide support and assistance and discover more information about avian influenza. the new national whole tree improvement plan, which we will hear more about this morning has allowed companies to participate in a surveillance program with 100% indemnity. that has been a part of the discussion in terms of how we deal with it. i can't say that our response in california was perfect but we certainly didn't face the same scale as outbreak that has been faced in the midwest. i hope through this hearing, mr. chairman, we can better understand what practices work best and learn from the successes to minimize the negative impact that the avian

influenza has had during the spring flight season. you know there is going to be an upcoming fall flight, and certainly congressman peterson can testify to that as an avid hunter. he is very familiar with the various seasons. i very much look forward to the testimony of those from the united states department of agriculture, the state representatives, and i hope we can learn from each other. thank you. rep. rouzer: thank you. rep. peterson: i'd like to enter this economic impact analysis into the record. i will do -- rep. rouzer: without objection. the chair would request that other members submit their opening statements for the record so that witnesses may begin their testimony. the chair would like to remind members that they will be recognized in order of seniority.

after that, members will be recognized in order of their arrival. i appreciate members' understanding. you are asked to limit your oral exchange to five minutes. all statements will be included in the record. i'd like to welcome our witnesses to the table. please note that in the interest of time, we have combined the two panels. dr. david swayne, usda agricultural research service thank you for being here. dr. john clifford, veteran services usda. we also have dr. douglas meckes, state veterinarian, north carolina department of agriculture. dr. bill hartmann board of animal health and st. paul. dr. swayne, wheel will begin when you are ready.

-- we will begin when you are ready. dr. swayne: thank you i am dr. david swayne, the laboratory director of the southeast poultry research directory. the agriculture of research services is committed to eradicating the high virus to provide cutting-edge research and diagnostics molecular epidemiology, pathology, and fax vaccinology. we focused our high path research program to what is needed. within weeks, a test was developed to test this unique virus which allowed quick differentiation from our north american virus is. -- viruses. this is the core test used in

diagnostic efforts to identify infected flocks. we conducted studies to understand how the early virus infected birds. in chickens and turkeys high exposure doses were needed, and vertebrate contact was very inefficient. -- in bird to bird contact was very inefficient. in mallards and wild ducks, they became infected with lower doses of the virus and had more efficient contact transmission but did not comebecome ill. subsequent trials from iowa and the dakotas found these viruses required less actual viruses indicating a later virus had changed in was more easily transmissible. in extending laboratory field

data, researchers have teamed up with eitherth epidemiologists by providing genetic analysis in order to focus epidemiological as investigation. there was a point source investigation from poultry in the pacific however the later midwest viruses showed evidence of common source introduction outbreaks, supporting farm to farm spread. in the united states there is no vaccine in use for high pass ai. while some nations have attempted to utilize the vaccine to protect poultry against h5n1, their use has not always lead to immediate eradication. 99% of all vaccines have been used in only four countries where the virus is endemic.

their prolonged use of vaccines have been associated with failure and resistance. periodic change of vaccines need to more closely match those circulating for more effective control. in support we conduct testing and development. but we do not manufacture vaccines or decide when or if the vaccine should to be used. the use of vaccines determined by aphis. currently we have developed a new vaccine strain for use and we are conducting the final protection studies in chickens and turkeys. if 50, this vaccine would be transferred to a commercial vaccine manufacturer. an addition, we are registering vaccines against the

current outbreak. vaccination can play a helpful role in disease eradication if it is properly implemented but globally, vaccination have a negative impacts on poultry exports, a crucial part of the u.s. poultry industry. efforts to mitigate the effect of vaccination on exports include identifying infected poultry within a vaccinated population for a reliable and cost-effective testing. such a strategy is also called diva testing. diva testing strategies is a high research priority and we have those studies underway. in conclusion, the current outbreak represents unique and unprecedented challenges for the poultry industry, immediately shifting research programs to high-priority areas -- infectivity in transmission in wild birds rapid diagnostic test development molecular

epidemiological studies on virus spread and development of efficacious vaccines. thank you again for your opportunity, and for congressional support as we continue to fight this virus. rep. rouzer: thankdr. clifford: it has been almost two months since our last detection of ai in minnesota. over 60 farms have restocked with new, healthy poultry. over 30 have finished the cleaning and disinfection process and are on their way to restocking. the numbers will continue to climb in the coming weeks as a sign that we are recovering from this devastating outbreak.

the usda will continue to stand with those producers, helping them to get back into production as quickly as we can. much of our effort in recent weeks has been with an eye toward the future. we have been meeting with our state and industry partners to plan for any potential fall. outbreaks -- fall outbreaks. we are revising our plans. i can assure you that we will be ready to face any outbreaks in the fall. i just came from a conference in des moines where we, along with industry partners, discussed the outbreak in steps for the fall. our conversations they are into previous meetings have identified several key things. first, we all need to improve bio security. it's truly a shared responsibility. we need to wash equipment, limit the number of people on farms can take steps to limit contact with wild birds.

as part of this effort we need to improve outreach to producers who have been working with the industry to share information and materials so we can be ready to stop disease spread. second we recognize the importance of rapid depopulation. the longer we take to depopulate sick birds the more virus they produce, and with more virus and the environment the greater threat. we are working with partners on all the logistical challenges, and we need to have the right equipment and materials in the right places in the right disposal options to eliminate any unnecessary delays. third, we need to continue to have discussions about the vaccine policy. we made the decision to stockpile vaccine but have not decided whether or not to use it to control disease spread. our discussions with trading partners today suggests that many of them would ban all until

they could complete a risk assessment. we will continue to actively engage these partners about how to minimize the effect on trade should we need to use vaccine in the future. but if we want the conversation and attitude of our trading partners to change it is likely that all of us will have to change some of our policies and concerns about the use of vaccines and other foreign animal diseases. we are planning for a worst-case scenario and we will be ready for it. while i don't think it will come to that, this planning is important to ensure that we can handle any potential outbreaks in the fall no matter the size. to that end we are adding additional staff -- over 450 positions -- including 210 animal health technicians and 90 veterinary officers. we are working with our federal and state partners to increase

surveillance of wild birds which brought the disease initially. close monitoring of wild birds lets us identify and respond to the disease as rapidly as possible. our hearts go out to everyone affected so far -- producers their employees, the communities they live in and support. we are making sure theywe do everything he can for those who may be effective in the months ahead. mr. chairman this concludes my testimony and i would be happy to answer any questions. rep. rouzer: thank you very much. dr. meckes. [no audio] dr. meckes: thank you. stick to our efforts to prepare for and respond to highly

pathogenic avian influenza should it come our way. first and foremost understand that in north carolina the department has approached this task knowing that appropriate response has been on the scope of any single entity in state government. in addition we have aligned ourselves with the department leads at the liaison with the salt water conservation division and the department of environment and national resources. the diverse typography from the mountains to the coast necessitates consideration of environmental impacts of every asked fact should we experience unprecedented mass mortality.

we have also been included with various -- outside the department we have engaged with the poultry industry. our federal partners, nor north carolina state university, emergency management -- in our efforts to ensure a unified approach. the department's efforts for preparedness began in earnest after a quest for disease management assistance was received. we deploy depopulation teams and during the early april period, the midwest experienced a blowup and numbers infected with avian influenza and existing resources were overwhelmed, leading to a backlog. during two additional deployments, north carolina teens travel to minnesota and iowa and again assisted the states response team in depopulation of infected birds.

recent reports indicate that the presence of this backlog of infected birds contributed to the lateral spread of the virus in several areas but by the time our teams return to north carolina that backlog had managed. these deployment experiences were the cornerstones for our preparedness efforts in north carolina and over the past three months we have established groups to learn lessons. may include bio security laboratory capacity, disposal, disinfection, communication, out retreach. initially the environmental programs were fully engaged in every aspect of these working groups. our external partners are also participating in each of those areas. three particular areas are deemed critical ineffective timely management of disease outbreak -- operations,

particularly depopulation and disposal. the delay in depopulation contributed to the lateral spread of the virus and we are determined that will not be the case in north carolina. the department has long conducted training sessions for staff and others in the use of north carolina equipment typically twice a month in eastern and western parts of the state. more recently the department conducted phone training for industry partners on two successive days and held three regional meetings in the eastern, central, and western north carolina areas for partners to discuss preparations for a robust response to avian influenza. in addition, our marketing division solicited funding from industry partners for the construction of 10 additional units. one states units are completed north carolina will have 16 units available, which will be

fully manned and ready for deployment in the event of disease outbreak. the department has also worked with our colleagues in forestry to retrofit fire trucks with equipment suitable for use in depopulation activity. while delays in depopulation relate to the lateral spread of the virus, = can send consequence are the bridges and bio security that have been documented by the usda. suffice it to say, all would be well served to implement more stringent bio security procedures. our goal in north carolina is no lateral spread and to accomplish this the bio security lead on each response team will ensure compliance with i/o security protocols with all movement on and off premise us. since not carolina grower facility -- since they are typically closer, theirs is a

greater need for bio security practices to reduce the spread. consider, for example that in some areas we have over 500 individual poultry houses contained within the perimeter. disposal is the third critical tenant of the response, and given constraints on burial through much of north carolina and limitations on landfill, composting is the first choice for management of poultry carcasses. thus has been the case through the midwest. finally, the economic impacts of catastrophic mass mortality disease outbreak could have profound implications for counties, for the state, the poultry industry is responsible for $34 billion in economic activity.

north carolina has a long-standing commitment to agriculture and has responded to and recover from agricultural disasters in the past -- drought, disease, and whether events but this is unprecedented in its potential to impact our state in the entire southeast. department and its partners are committed to preparing for and responding to this disease should it arrive on the wings of migratory birds, and we are at the ready to effectively manage the disease to the best of our ability. if successful it will minimize the impact on north carolina poultry in the economy. i'm prepared to answer any questions. rep. rouzer: thank you, very much. dr. hartmann. dr. hartmann: i am the executive director of the board of animal health in minnesota. i want to thank you for providing me with an opportunity

to testify to this group on the outbreak of avian influenza that we have in minnesota. first i wanted to thank congressman peterson for his efforts in minnesota and for his support. i also wanted to ignore knowledge john clifford and the usda for what they've done in minnesota. our success depended on them being there and we really appreciate the help that was received. at one point, there were 140 usda employees working on high cafepath ai. it is an understatement to say that ai in minnesota has been devastating it extremely difficult were all involved. a university of minnesota study estimated the losses to the economy of minnesota at $650 million, and that was a few weeks ago. the hardest part of this disease

has been to see the emotional impact it has had on those growers who are affected, and on the whole industry. why minnesota is so affected? a few reasons -- we are the land of 10,000 lakes and we have a lot of migratory birds. we produce more turkeys than any other state in the united states and there is a concentration of those turkey farms in the west central part of minnesota. lastly, the weather was right. it was nice and cool and damp in minnesota during the spring, and that is what the virus likes. the outbreak started on march 4 and we haven't had any new cases, has dr. clifford said, since june 5. we have gotten a break this summer and as dr. clifford said, we are making great progress in recovering. there was a three-week gap

between the first case we had in the second case, but then after that we had cases almost every day and at the height of the outbreak we had eight cases eight farms found infected in one day. this included farms that are relatively large in size. we had a turkey farm that had 310,000 turkeys and a chicken layer operation with over 2 million birds. during the course of the outbreak, over 9 million birds died or were depopulated to prevent the spread of the virus. minnesota has extensive experience with low path avian influenza -- we've had that disease just about every year since i've been there. the difference is that that virus doesn't kill birds, it rarely makes them sick, though

we still want to make sure we respond to it. working together with the usda we follow the guidelines the usda outlined for eliminating this disease, all 110 farms were warned teen, appraised -- were quarantined and appraised. turkeys were composted in the barn and when that compost material was taken out of the barn the barnes had to be cleaned and disinfected, which is quite a job. then the environment had to be tested before we could release quarantine. neighbors with poultry and to be identified and tested, and we tested during the outbreak over 1000 flocks for high path ai. over the past few years, the development of a scientific system to allow for movement of poultry in control areas during the heightigh path ai outbreak.

the economic impact could have been much greater if we hadn't been able to move poultry and poultry products out of the controls zone. minnesota issued 4000 permits within minnesota and out of minnesota. we are working hard with our partners to get all the effective farms back in business as usual. of the 1010 10farms depopulated, 45 are no longer infected, 38 have been restocked. all of the control zones have been eliminated, so we no longer are required to do this permitting because all those control zones have been taken care of. what did we learn from this outbreak that we might share with other states in preparation

for the fall? it is very important to develop relationships before a crisis, with not only the state, federal government, but also local government. we need to prepare and train. we need to be able to depopulate farms within 24 hours. we need to identify a facility in the area where poultry are raised where we can establish an emergency operation center. we need to make sure that our laboratories are at adequate capacity to handle the incredible demands that are made of that laboratory. all poultry farms should have an emergency carcass disposal plan. finally, a new level of bio security will be required to deal with this virus. we are doing these things in minnesota and we are sharing our lessons learned with other states. thank you. rep. rouzer: i would like to

thank each of the witnesses very much for their testimony. we will now go into a round of questions. i have a few here myself. we aren't going to have a time limit on members but i ask members to try to keep their questions as concise as possible and i will certainly try to do the same so we can get through this in a timely manner. dr. clifford, we in north carolina are very fortunate that it has not made it into our region yet. it certainly has the potential to come this fall. what outreach is usda currently doing to prepare states that have not yet been impacted for a potential outbreak? dr. clifford: thank you, mr. chairman. we have had several meetings. with the industries and with the states. preparing for this fall, we have sent a survey to the states to prepare them and to prepare us to make sure that the states

have identified beforehand the necessary needs for disposal of birds, whether it be a land fill, so we know exactly where those birds need to be taken or how we plan to dispose of those birds. in addition, besides other types of outreach we have done, we are planning on sending our survey to the industry itself, to address some of the questions that we have for them in making sure they are prepared. from all that this outreach and things we are doing, we are preparing a usda plan that will be provided to the secretary of agriculture and also to the stakeholders across the u.s. rep. rouzer: are the states being fairly responsive? dr. clifford: absolutely. rep. rouzer: dr. meckes and hartmann, both of you covered

this to an extent, but if you could highlight again any changes that you think would be necessary based on your experience in minnesota that states need to be doing? dr. hartmann: i think the most important thing we've all highlighted is that heightened bio security is something we think is so crucial to this, and to that end, minnesota is going to fund a group of poultry veterinarian's who are going to go out into each of the poultry farms in minnesota and go over their bio security plans with them in detail so that we are prepared to make sure that we aren't spreading this disease. rep. rouzer: dr. meckes? dr. meckes: chairman rouzer, we are quite fortunate in north carolina that we have an emergency programs division within our department of agriculture.

they have long served our state as indicated in a variety of different disasters from the disease outbreaks the hurricanes that so frequently the fall north carolina, droughts. they are keenly attuned to prepare, and we work with machines every month the last six years in preparation for what might come to pass. our usda colleague frequently had to defend the use of phones when we reported our budget on an annual basis. i certainly think that we are well prepared. we are looking forward, moving forward, to be ready to respond this fall. rep. rouzer: dr. clifford, i know there are some interesting first responders teams

trained to handle this situation it can work with government employees to provide needed assistance. is this something you are exploring? are you familiar with this? dr. clifford: with regards to first responders, as we prepare for the fall, the first responders have to be able to pass a test, a health exam, because of the personal protective equipment. it is very strenuous work that they are doing and with that equipment on, with this suits with the personal protective equipment necessary. so yes, we are preparing and the people we will be bringing on board, the additional 300 field personnel that will be used for this purpose will be one of the first things we will do, preparing them in training them. in addition, the contractors that we use are part of that

contractual agreement, that they will have had personnel trained as well prior to any outbreak. we are able to put as many as 300-600 people in a matter of a few days on the contracting. we are also using our response corps, private veterinarians willing to do work. we are training or half trained at number of them already and will continue to do that, but our first priority is making sure our personnel are trained. rep. rouzer: are you finding there is any communication or logistical obstacles? at all here? dr. clifford: well, not with this particular issue. it is a limiting factor how many people we can get trained and

ready by the fall. plus, how many people we have employed. i think it has been mentioned -- we deployed about 1100 people during this process on the past outbreak, but that's 1100 people that makes up 200 or 300 individuals with multiple deployments. we had for response teams within usda aphis. in a worst-case scenario, we will be needing 10 response teams to prepare for a worst-case scenario, can be even more. rep. rouzer: outside the current research being done on h2n5h2, what additional research -- h2 5n2, what additional research is needed to combat it?

dr. swayne: those other threats around the world in the south there is an ongoing h7n3 outbreak. throughout a large part of the country there is a low path h5 n2. those are continual threats. our laboratory, as part of a global effort to eradicate ai, works with the mexican government and coordinates the research with north. -- with north canada. there is a lot of research needed for control programs -- right now we are highlighting having vaccines, it also there is research in other areas maintaining rapid diagnostic tax ests, development of either testing -- of diva testing that

could identify infected flocks, and we would have to depopulate those as if they were untapped vaccinated. in studying the way the virus is transmitted and how to develop strategies to prevent those transmissions. rep. rouzer: how is usda working with states to develop vaccine use? dr. clifford: we said basic standards on animal health in shoessues. the policies in the standards would allow the use of vaccines.

that could be potentially unable to control the disease -- that was what i was referring to in my testimony -- the culture that we need to move away from. we have what is referred to as diva strategies, meaning we can distinguish between the vaccine strain in the field strain. it is those types of strategies that would allow us to reduce the destruction of animals can be able to utilize more. we need to develop those strategies and implement them. the world organization of animal health recognizes that today. is the country's. -- it's the countries. some of our own regulations that are a little outdated. we are trying to modernize many of those. we would not allow product to come in.

vaccine is a tool, a tool that we need to use wisely. it's not something we should use consistently and continue, because then it's effectiveness -- it's kind of like with the human health flu virus. they change that regularly. it is the same thing here. rep. rouzer: have any of our top trading partners indicated they will be seeking retaliatory trade measures if we were to start vaccinating commercial birds? dr. clifford: we spoke to a number of members that we are trading partners with. basically what they said was -- most of them indicated that they will still trade to us and regionalize us. countries like japan, they would

do a risk assessment first. they would initially shut a soft, do a risk assessment, and if the risk, they felt, was minimal or very low they would reopen the market. but that risk assessment can take months. the plan is early this fall, in september or late summer, i will be making trips with other members of my staff to countries around the world to explain to them are specific plans and how we would use vaccines to see if we can get them to accept that and not shut off trade. right now we would be concerned of losing $3 billion or $4 billion in trade annually through the use of vaccine. i would also like to say that many of those countries like south korea, like china have shut off the entire u.s., and it's not about vaccine, they just won't reason with us.

those countries we need to continue to work on that issue and get them to recognize regionalization, which is also well accepted the oie. rep. rouzer: that will conclude my questioning for the time being. mr. costa? rep. costa: thank you, very very much, mr. chairman. dr. clifford, as you know, we are currently undergoing negotiations wifor the trade effort with asian nations and canada, and we have had issues of canada on poultry. one -- as the high path avian influenza impacted canada, they treated in the same fashion. two -- are there any attempt by any of these countries to use

this as an excuse to invoke non-tarriff-like terriers as it relates to our ability to export poultry product, the same multibillion-dollar industry for the united states? clearly we want to do the right thing for the right reasons but i remember in a more recent example with mad cow disease we saw certain countries ease this not based on best science but as an excuse, in my view, to invoke barriers even though we were following all the proper protocols. could you give me an answer to those questions? one, is it taking place in terms of our negotiations vis-a-vis tpp, and two, how has this

impacted canada, and if so, are they treating inappropriately as we are tending to do? dr. clifford: when he first addressed the question with regards -- let me first addressed the question with regards to canada. we have had a long-standing memorandum, and agreement on how we would treat each other relative to these types of issues. specifically on ai, we have had an agreement for a number of years where we definitely regionalized. canada and the u.s. have set the stage and developing a model for other countries follow. yes, canada treats us very fairly that we treat them the same way, and we do this very quickly, based upon the recognition that we both have of having similar types of animal

health systems and protections. that works very, very well. we have taken that model in trying to get other countries to adopt something very similar and we have some discussion actually, with some of our asian partners, as well. with regards to the tpp discussions and nontariff barriers, i think oftentimes biosantitary issues are raised to a level that are not based on science. rep. costa: correct. dr. clifford: we definitely know that this is the case with a number of these countries. having said that, there are also a number of these countries that have regionalized us, and have done it in a complementary way and it has supported us.

my friend in counterpart in japan, dr. toshira kawishima was under a lot of pressure, i know, to shut off the u.s., and he stood with us. i am much appreciative -- he wants to develop some strategies that we have with canada between the u.s. and japan something we will continue to talk about and move forward with. rep. costa: all right. you might want to provide the subcommittee with more information on that effort. let me move back to the domestic front. what has the department done to work with various states to prepare for this fall flight season? do you think we are adequately prepared for the full flight season? dr. clifford: i think that we are preparing for that season, and i think we are a lot more prepared than we were, but i also think that we will be

totally prepared before the fly season starts. rep. costa: you are talking about regionally? dr. clifford: i'm talking about the entire u.s., sir. rep. costa: that includes california? dr. clifford: yes, sir absolutely. rep. costa: you alluded to in your comments -- and again, we all understand it is a multibillion dollar industry, and a lot of flocks of had to be eradicated -- a worst-case scenario. what is, in your mind, a worst-case scenario? dr. clifford: we just came through a pretty bad scenario. nearly 50 million birds and 211 commercial premises affected. in our worst-case scenario, they would be 500 cases in a commercial flock. rep. costa: and how much -- dr. clifford: 211. rep. costa: 211 nationwide? dr. clifford: oh today?

211 commercial flocks, nationwi de. rep. costa: and use a 500 dr. clifford: 510 states. that is the worst-case scenario we are planning on based on modeling work. rep. costa: do you believe what we did in california is applicable, or did we just get lucky? >> california had some unique situations that arose. in this case, the entry point of the virus through the pacific flyway. it was highly adapted to migratory waterfowl. transmission farm to farm was

more difficult. that was to the benefit of california and the farms in that region. the other thing about this particular scenario, we did high-level malec there -- molecular analysis. those commercial flocks and backyard flocks were point source introductions. a virus introduced directly or indirectly. it allowed local officials to identify quarantine, and illuminate those before they could spread to other farms. this emphasizes the lessons learned. the identification of infections and farms. the rapid euthanasia timeline is critical.

get on top of it as quickly as possible. rep. costa: acknowledge it, eradicate it. swayne: unfortunately the virus changed and they did not have as much time as in california. it took a lot less virus to affect flocks. the spreading was more rapid. we cannot afford to have infected flocks sitting around. we need to get them in a proper disposal method to prevent transmission. rep. costa: two final questions.

dr. swayne, i have been told the funding for your facility falls dramatically short of what you believe or is believed to be needed for further efforts. do you agree and could you elaborate? dr. swayne: the research we generate and other partners at universities as well as the cdc and other organizations is essential in developing control policies. that become what is used in the field. those are long-term issues. for our laboratory, staffing has declined from 35 to 20 people. that is a financial reality. research is a long-term process.

you have to hire people. they have to be trained. we are aware of the biosafety issues. they have to operate in high containment labs. the issue has become long-term permanent funding has not kept up with mission demands. rep. costa: can you give us an estimate of what is needed? replacing the 15 people who have been cut back, is that a start? dr. swayne: that is a start. there's also an of the do research safely. adding biosafety officers. those are permanent funds we need because you have to have the research. rep. costa: i would suggest the subcommittee considers if there

was an interest, submitting a bipartisan letter to the appropriations committee. it is going to be a fragmented approach. when they are considering the final package later this fall, we might want to make a suggestion or recommendation. we can consider that. dr. swayne: the second piece is facility issues. southeast poultry, our facilities are aged. there was a study. southeast poultry was the number one requirement. rep. costa: how close are we from developing a vaccine? dr. swayne: we are near completing the first phase of the research. we are in discussions on the analysis of the data. dr. clifford's office and a

mine have begun the statistical analysis. we will have a meeting to determine what that data means. we have additional studies we are working with. some university partners. that is lab data we are generating. we have to work with the field as far as have you possibly implement an effective program. rep. costa: for a layperson's perspective, a poultry farmer, a region with a television station covering this and making the report you are ancient us, dr. clifford to comment. when these things happen, we have to respond. dr. clifford: we will have vaccine availability for the migration time.

to dr. swayne's point there are several companies that have vaccines. they are prepared to have available. we will be going out with request for proposal specifically to stockpile vaccines. some of these will come in at different stages. for this fall and spring. rep. costa: thank you for the subcommittee hearing. i want to thank my ranking member, congressman peterson. we want to cooperate to provide support for the poultry injury. >> mr. newhouse. mr. newhouse: thank you for holding this hearing on this important topic. it seems one of the things that

is an all hands on deck kind of situation. i appreciate the focus on it and the panel discussing these issues. i appreciate the presence of our state veterinarians. your approach to helping us learn and be cared for what ever happens in the future. it seems to me when the next outbreak occurs, there will be no time for handwringing. in my experience, i appreciate dr. clifford's valuable help dealing with animal health issues. appreciative of you being here. i love the no time restraint. that is very valuable.

i appreciate the opportunity to delve into this. a couple of questions to begin with. concerning the national health network. my understanding is the federal funding currently supplies 5% of the cost of operating the lab system. the same is critical to detection, response, recovery to disease outbreaks similar to what we have experienced. for this year, can you tell us how the initial cases in any given state were detected and by whom? to follow up, as part of this year's outbreak, the iowa lab has been open 24/7. do the labs have the support

they need to sustain this type of workload? >> thank you, congressman for that question. the national animal laboratory health is an important part of our infrastructure to address not just this issue but a lot of animal health issues. as you are aware, there was language in the farm bill that addressed this issue. that did not come with funding. the laboratories throughout this country are at different levels of funding. we need resources for those laboratories to be able to do the work we so urgently need them to do.

to speak to a specific lab in a specific state we would have to defer more to the states themselves and the labs themselves to address those specifically. yes, funding is needed for these laboratories. we do the best we can with the funding we have to provide resources. the house markup had additional resources for the laboratories which was welcomed and appreciated. as far as who does the diagnosis, it will very. in any location or state. a lot of these laboratories are very much involved in this testing. i know for example in minnesota and iowa during the outbreak there has been a huge effort with regard to putting and having personnel available to do around the clock testing.

we destroy animals depopulate these animals, based on presumptive positives. those are done by the laboratories. rep. newhouse: another question, dr. clifford, and you touched on this in previous questioning. concerning trade and economic issues and the steps usda is taking in terms of negotiating with foreign governments about vaccines and the potential they hold. as far as the impacts that could have on poultry exports. there is interest in grocery and food producers industries about the flexibilities of poultry products due to shortages

experienced. can you talk about progress on that front? dr. clifford: we have had shipments from the european union. recent shipments from mexico into the u.s. now to help address some of the shortages we have. i know of two countries right now, one mexico and the other the netherlands. i'm not sure if we are bringing from other countries in the european union or not off the top of my head, but that is something i can find out. that will continue to help us address some of the shortages we have in the u.s. rep. newhouse: dr. swayne, mr. costa asked you some questions about sex scene.

i appreciate your comments there about steps in this process to help stop or spread and eradicate the virus. i hate to about the sky is falling scenario but based on your observations, when you are talking about the spread of this disease and the additional or potential risk to poultry operations around the world, what specifically in other countries, central and south america, europe and asia will these flyaway's go back-and-forth every year? what are we looking at in the future here? are we just keeping our fingers in the dikes, so to speak.

dr. swayne: we can look back at data generated in asia, are korean -- our korean colleagues. they have had to bring years of migratory fowl. the second year, it reoccurred but was not as severe. the lesson, when you have an incursion of migratory waterfowl, you have a severe year, then it is mild. for us, the advantage is all the surveillance evidence suggest we do not have the virus in current farms. the risk is what would come through the migratory fly ways. that emphasizes the role of

colleagues in wild life health. surveillance programs set up across southern canada in the northern u.s.. even down the atlantic flyway coast. trying to get a handle on whether it is in birds that are migrating. if it is identified, there should be information disseminated within those areas for farmers to be extra vigilant . to quickly report any abnormal signs that might occur. one thing to our advantage, the fly ways we have in north america go north and south. the viruses do not readily go into central and south america from us, nor their viruses coming north. the mixing is small, a small area with a small number of

species that cross both hemispheres. that is to our vantage and their advantage. a critical control point. if we can control outbreaks in poultry populations, we reduce the possibility of infections. that would be a way of amplifying it. hopefully the virus will self burn out. surveillance by wildlife services, usgs, university partners is critical. rep. newhouse: going back to the authorization for the national lab network what beyond the diagnostic capabilities should we be considering to enhance this disease prevention? >>dr. clifford: i think probably making sure that we have the

proper infrastructure within the laboratories to deal with diseases that are zoonotic. have zoonotic potential. rep. newhouse: that would be your priority. i have a question for mr. kelly from mississippi. >> with the gentleman yield? just for us laypeople, what is zoonotic? dr. clifford: diseases that can cross from animals to people. this one does not, thank goodness. rep. newhouse: good question. mr. kelly has a broiler industry

in mississippi. apparently there are no infected herds detected. -- infected birds detected. his question is why having been broilers detected? maybe they just do a great job in mississippi as far as control? dr. clifford: i think it is age-related. most of the birds infected have been older than that. one of the opportunities for managing the virus has been early marketing of birds, particularly turkeys and parts of the midwest. some have gone to market much sooner than they would ordinarily. those are our thoughts in north carolina. i will defer to my usda colleagues. >> it is interesting to note

that did happen in minnesota. we had broilers where there was infection. they were never affected at all. i think chickens are a little harder to be affected. it takes a higher dose and they do not transmit it as much as much. the age factor was there as well. >> if i may make a quick comment, there are two factors that have impacted the lack of euler infections -- broiler infections. there appears to be age susceptibility. older birds are more susceptible than younger birds. broilers are young. in farm operations, there are fewer entry points. most of those have a family taking care of them. fee trucks usually only come on

the third or fourth week. few points of entry versus if you look at a layer farm, large farms, lots of people going off. trucks that may be shared a turkey farm. you have a greater chance for moving a iris. rep. newhouse: i will submit my other questions for the record. i appreciate your input. >> i have a series of questions from my producers in minnesota. things that have come up. one of the big concerns growers have, it is the depopulation. you heard it from them. talking about other kinds of methods that could be used the

next time around that would speed up that that the population process. you have both talked about the goal of the population in 24 hours. the turkey operation is much simpler. the layer operations, some of these big operations have 2 million or 3 million birds, it took them a couple of weeks or a few weeks to depopulate them. during a time of viruses coming out and so forth. the question is, how are we going to get to a 24 hour depopulation? can we even a compass that? -- accomplish that? >> we have explored a way they

are the populating in canada. using co2 gas in the whole barn. i sent one of my employees to a demonstration. i am hoping that is a method we can use in layer barns. one of the issues i have been told may make it not available in the u.s. or at least in minnesota is our operations have five cages high to read in canada, they are three cages high. it is hard to get the co2 to the top level. we are exploring that. the only other method we know is to shut the ventilation down and heat it up. at this point, that is not considered an acceptable manner of depopulation. >> if you let the birds die over three weeks, i'm not sure that is acceptable either.

none of these options are very good. >> thank you, congressman peterson. our goal is to get the birds dead as quickly as possible. 24 hours is our goal. we are looking at several options to do that. there are some other things we are looking at as well. besides the co2. i forgot the particular product. we are looking at another product. we care about the humane treatment of the birds and putting them down as humanely as possible. with regards to euthanasia. there is a diff -- a definite distinction between euthanizing versus mass population. all of these things have to be considered with regards to the overall situation. the concern for animal health and human health.

we need to look at all of these tools and try to get the birds killed as quickly as possible as humanely as possible, without further spread of the virus. as you indicated, it is important to get that done within 24 hours. if we continue to have more birds dying from the virus there is more in the environment and we know that to be a fact. congressman peterson: we have had disposal concerns, there's not room in the barns. they have been composting them outside which people are concerned this would potentially spread the virus. one thing they are looking at, dr. hartman, are there some kind

of bio bags they are using? there have not been agreements with the landfills and that slowed the process down. where is that at? is there going to be a way to deal with the layer operations without doing this outside? if we have another outbreak? dr. hartman: we had one layer operation that did this. if you can depopulate that quickly, within 24 hours of the diagnosis, the composting outside is not as big of a concern. you don't have a lot of virus. you maybe have, in a 2 million bird operation, 50 dead birds that have virus. the rest do not. the key to not spreading the virus that way is you can continue to compost outside but

you have to catch the disease quickly and to populate within 24 hours. >> with the gentleman yield for a point of clarification. trying to understand the pathology. from the point of view of a layperson. the shelf life of the organism living in this high path influenza from the time it is detected, the time the flock is terminated, to the disposal. does the bacteria, once the word is no longer alive it does it still live on until the time it is buried? >> it does live on. >> i am just trying to understand this better.

dr. swain: the critical issue is the sooner you can stop the birds from living, you stop producing more virus. the influenza virus does not keep growing after the body is dead, after the carcass is produced. whereas in bacteria, bacteria can grow after you remove it from the carcass. the virus, but peak amount of virus is when the birds are lie. if you can euthanize, depopulate the birds come they stop producing virus. over time, it is inactivated to read it is time and temperature dependent. composting is an excellent way to inactivate the virus. the process has microbes that generate heat. the heat kills that virus. also digests the virus.

the compost itself is completely innocuous other than it has nutrients that have value. >> it is not just the euthanasia but quickly burying or composting the carcasses. >> if you leave it in the environment, it can be tracked on shoes or close. -- clothes. >> the other related issue that i just heard about a couple of days ago in some of the layer operations it has been a real problem cleaning it up. the bills. this particular grower had heard about the potential of having a 120 day. -- a 120 day time where you wouldn't have to clean everything out.

is that the case? >> yes, it is. we are looking at that and evaluating that as well as may be trying to look at heating the buildings up during that process in order to reduce the amount of cleaning and disinfection that has to be done. our primary goal is not to clean the building. we are going to continue to evaluate. one option we are looking at. hopefully, it will work because to me it would save and reduce work and resources that are currently having to be spent cleaning these up. >> this particular producer said

he will probably have to be out 120 days anyway. he would be a lot cheaper for everybody. the other thing, as i mentioned in my opening statement, a lot of concern about the paperwork that is being required. it is the federal government so i understand that. as we move forward, i guess you're looking at ways to streamline this. are you looking at things like standardizing the payments based on the square footage of the barns or something so you wouldn't have to have the 80 pages of forms? also, if you did something like that, you might be able to lower the amount that is paid. more competition, people competing to do it.

dr. clifford: there are three things we are talking about. one is identification, that is simple. it is not 70-80 pages. it is the other document that they need to sign that deals with the cmd. that document can be very extensive and long. we hope to definitely simplify it. i don't defy into the fact that because we are the federal government, it should be that long and complicated. i believe simplification is better and oftentimes better understood. kind of like having a bio security plan that that nobody reads versus a sheet of paper somebody does read. one of the things we're doing

with the industry looking at maybe a square-foot cost or house cost. allowing the producers to handle that themselves. rep. peterson: there has been a discussion about having an insurance system instead of indemnification. i think indemnification works but he well. you can get in there and his depopulate quickly. i think it has worked well. i don't see how you can make the insurance system work. you are going to substitute you guys for insurance companies. i think there might be a role for insurance. maybe like business interruption. i think that indemnification i

don't know if we want to change that to some other kind of system. i don't know what you think about that. >> i am very much a believer in indemnification. i'm not sure -- mr. peterson: it was reported he was pushing an insurance -- i don't think that is what he said. dr. clifford: that is more downtime issues. mr. peterson: the impression was, some have talked about cheney system -- changing the system and have it like the livestock disaster system or crop insurance. the crop insurance companies say there is no way to underwrite this. they are not really interested. i think it is good we clarify this.

they reported a couple times including yesterday, the secretary was pushing insurance. i don't think he really is in terms of what people think. mr. clifford: if you look at the countries that do a good job of controlling disease, they pay indemnity. those that do not do not have it. mr. peterson: first of all, i want to have -- come lament you. -- i want to complement to you for getting on the ball and setting up the emergency center. i think that is why we had a good response in minnesota. you did it an excellent job responding as best you could. this issue of the consistent case manager, are you able to

augment with the usda does in terms of personnel so we can have a situation where these case managers can stay with the operation the whole time and not be shifted every week? dr. clifford: at one point, we had to manage 110 sites. we were relying on usda employees. they rotate in for three weeks at a time. that was the reason for the inconsistencies. we are getting down to the point where about 50-50 minnesota case managers and usda case managers.

we continue to improve on that. somebody told me they had 12 different case managers. that is not good. some of them get a different story from everybody who comes in. something that is of great concern to us and we are moving in the direction of having all minnesota people working on it. they can stay with the person the whole time. dr. clifford: i agree. we are working to this fall and winter migration time. if we have the outbreaks, we want to try our best to provide one case manager per producer. having said that, a lot of this is because of the rotation of people. it is hard to lead somebody away from their home for 10-12 weeks.

that is not fair to them as individuals. we are looking for ways to do this better. mr. peterson: one of the other concerns we had when this was going was getting these flux tested. -- flocks tested. people having to drive to minneapolis or some of them drove to south dakota. where is the situation of beef up, move some of the testing? is that being considered? he would make a much better situation if we had had that availability this time. >> congressman yes the legislature. with that. the governor signed a bill for $8.5 million for renovation of the laboratory. the technology to do the tests. i was very encouraged, they put

it on the fast track. i just got a note that the state of minnesota slow the process down. i don't understand exactly the mechanism of that. incident of february, they are talking next summer. anything you can do to encourage that to move quicker would be encouraged. we had to hire careers to -- careersouriers. it costs a lot of money. mr. peterson: there was trouble keeping up with so many potential positives. once they got the thing into the lab, they still had a backup.

dr. hartmann: our laboratory hired new technicians. they were working nights and weekends. laboratory technicians are not used to doing that. we are going to have a meeting with the airasia minnesota to talk about that for the fall. -- with the university of minnesota to talk about that for the fall. mr. peterson: we appreciate you saying you are going to be commercializing this and stockpiling it. did i understand you to say you will do it even if it is not 100%? i thought that was that you were wanting to have the vaccines be 100%. dr. hartmann: we want the best vaccine possible that matches

with this particular virus. it doesn't mean vaccines that may be don't match up cannot be effective. hoping to build immunity with the birds. it can be. it might be a combination. i think dr. swain can give you -- mr. peterson: you have a hundred percent positive on the chickens? a vexing that tested 100%? -- of vaccine that tested 100%? >> that virus as reported by the secretary, in chickens, we can prevent mortality in chickens. it is being done in turkey's.

mr. peterson: next week? dr. swayne: the data will be available. the other issue, not just an experimental setting does it protect the birds in the laboratory. we have to take the vaccines and say, how can you use them in the field? there are different ages and types of words. the other part, we call this effectiveness. how can you use vaccines in combination in the field? the experience we have in countries like vietnam indonesia, china, to have an effective program in the field, you have to have a minimum of two vaccinations separated by three weeks. that makes it a little more different ledges tickly. if you have birds on the ground

a longer than six months, you have to give a booster. breeders and layers may have to have a booster. these are questions we are working with university partners negotiating with them, them helping us do some of these studies in an experimental protocol that we can control to see how effective we can use vaccines. one last digression. if you look globally, the countries that have eradicated it most quickly, they have the best veterinary services and extcellent poultry veterinar

ians. another thing, it is a targeted of vaccination. not everybody. who needs it the most and has the highest risk. mr. peterson: that goes to my final question. on this trade issue. my people, we have this discussion. they are very pleased you are going to be stockpiling. a very good positive situation. the practicalities of the trade situation and push back. in our part of the world they are trading some. they think and are part of the world, the vaccine they would give up their trade if they could get the vaccine from what i am hearing.

when you are talking to these other countries, part of the discussion whether it would be possible to do it in a targeted area make that less of a trade issue? easier to get this done? >> that is the idea i made earlier. using it in targeted areas at higher risk. in minnesota, as dr. hartmann said, there is a lot of waterfowl. you certainly need that criteria. that is the idea, to get them to accept that and not shut off the entire u.s. mr. peterson: is that the discussion going on with other countries? mr. clifford: that is the discussion. i am visiting five countries. talking to them about that.

also visiting countries like china, just to get our markets reopened. we are also going to be going to other countries in europe. as well as the americas. mr. peterson: thank you. i want to thank you all. as i said, things have not been perfect. but do you have had concerns. we appreciate it. i also think the secretary and your people. i talked to a number of your folks at the emergency center from maine oklahoma all over the place. they were away from their families and working seven days a week.

it is a tremendous effort. we appreciate it. look forward to working with all of you to get through this fall. hopefully we will not have a similar situation. if it does a rear up, hopefully we will have a similar response ready to go. i yield back. >> i suppose i have the right to ask one more question if my staff will allow me. otherwise, i might be fired. sitting here thinking about the questions and testimony, it occurred to me, we can get this 100% correct. we have a growing market for somewhat may call free range or organic, locally grown, locally produced. what is the nature of our outreach to the small mom and pop organically grown locally

produced? it strikes me we could get it completely right on the commercial side but we may have a gap here with a lot of small individual producers throughout all of our states? just curious what our plan of action has been contemplated there. >> thank you. we have been doing outreach in this area for years. we have an active, what we refer to as bio security which targets this sector of the industry. we also reach out through the poultry associations and groups. through the national poultry improvement plan and other groups to reach this sector of the industry. i know that the states, do a lot

as well with outreach. backyard type birds or organic birds raised outdoors. there is quite about of -- quite a bit of outreach. >> we are in the process of seeking to discern the location of all of our backyard flocks. we have about 4000 we are aware of. we have asked individuals within the state of north carolina to please contact our office. register with them. the desire is to adequately convey information to them in the event of a disease outbreak. i liken it to the red sticker in your children's window for the firemen to see. we can convey needed information

to individual bird owners and smaller flock owners. >> this age of instant communication, we got an e-mail a message from one of our growers watching the hearing. they got the impression, because of the discussion we had about the far east and japan the usda was not doing anything now. the question is, why isn't you di the usda talking to trading partners? my impression is, you are. >> we are. we just had an international meeting in baltimore. a lot of partners were invited and were present. this is a topic that was discussed. mr. peterson: you are not the only person at the usda. >> i am not.

i get a lot of kudos for things done by a lot of others. we appreciate it. the department has been on this. >> we are on this. >> i would like to thank our witnesses for appearing before the subcommittee. i think this has been helpful and informative. those who traveled longer distances than others, thank you particularly. under the rules, the record will remain open for 10 bang days. the subcommi