>> the committee will come to order, without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the committee at any time. welcome to the hearing entitled an overview of the budget proposal for the national aeronautics and space administration for fiscal year 2025. i recognize myself, for five minutes for the opening statement. today, we hear testimony from bill nelson about the budget proposal for nasa to fiscal year 2025, this

committee plays an important role in the mission by providing policy direction and authorizing activities for the agency. while we make progress with language included in the 2022 chips and science act, it has been more than seven years since the last comprehensive nasa reauthorization bill was signed into law. i am certain everyone, including the administrator, can agree seven years is far too long, as experts have highlighted in committee hearings this year, a lot has changed for nasa since 2017. we must approach an authorization built with these changes in mind and address a few major topics. the first topic is artemis, i speak with members on both sides of the aisle when i express the strongest support for americans returned to the lunar surface, but support means asking tough questions about the plant architecture and execution of the program. the second topic is the nasa role in fourth urban with the --

orbit when the space station is retired. we heard about this in february and i look forward to continuing the dialogue. a third topic is the management of science missions within the agency's portfolio. we support nasa daring to do big things, particularly in science, but how can congress insure these projects, particularly flagship missions, remain on schedule and within budget? as we think about these topics and consider this important reauthorization legislation, we must keep in mind recent budgetary issues. nasa does not like plans for future exploration efforts, whether returning astronauts to the moon, exploring our solar system, or developing new aviation technology but these ambitions come at a cost. in may of 2023, president biden sign the fiscal responsibility act capping federal discretionary spending for fiscal year 2024 and fiscal year 2025. one of our challenges is to

draft an authorization bill that complies with the law while providing sufficient support for nasa to execute these inspiring missions. failing to do so will force nasa to take on more work than they have the funding to accomplish. which will not only set nasa up for failure but asking them to do too much with too little by providing proper oversight and clear direction and authorizing language, this committee can create the framework for adequate funding for the activities of the agency, a common theme among the hearings this committee held is the importance of ensuring u.s. competitiveness in research and technology development globally. and today is no different. while the u.s. remains the global leader in space exploration, we face increasing challenges internationally. just last week, china reiterated its commitment to leading two astronauts on the lunar surface by 2030. later this week, china intends to launch a mission to bring

samples from the far side of the moon. if they are successful, china will be the first country to do so. we cannot allow china to become the front runner in space exploration. there are too many consequences for competitiveness, national security, and continued ability to explore space. with clear direction from congress, nasa will ensure that u.s. remains a global leader in space and continues to inspire millions of people around the world. i want to welcome administrator nelson back to the committee. where he served for many years. i look forward to working with you as we move forward with our nasa authorization bill. i now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from california for an opening statement. >> i joined the chairman and welcoming administrator nelson back to the committee to discuss the president's budget proposal to nasa. we appreciate your leadership at nasa and that you were here today. amidst what could be at times in geopolitical, economic, and

environmental strife, nasa continues to be a bright spot, a northstar that sparks a sense of wonder and curiosity about our planet, solar system, and the universe. the mission of nasa to event space and science and human exploration, aeronautics, space technology, and education continues to bring us together and that is something we need. in congress, there is broad bipartisan support for the mission of nasa beyond the united states, nasa leads us in activities that serve for the peaceful exploration and utilization of our space. the value of these intangible benefits cannot be underestimated. nor can we forget the direct value that nasa has had on societal challenges such as climate change, space weather, and even on tracking and characterizing potentially hazardous near earth asteroids. the discussion provides an important opportunity to

examine that progress towards meeting our policy goals for united states and the space program. to identify opportunities for improvement and understand what nasa needs and budget for workforce and infrastructure resources to accomplish its inspiring mission. the fiscal year request for nasa is $25.384 billion on a 3% increase from the enacted fiscal year 2023 appropriation. i believe this request allows us to keep the artemis 2 mission on track and investing in sustainable aviation among other activities. however, the agreement last year does post caps on discretionary spending and that presents challenges for all of our federal research and development agencies, nasa is no exception, under the 2025 request for nasa, high priority sites recommended national academy surveys could not be

initiated. the timeline for mars sample return is to be determined previously selected science missions are being pushed into the future or cancel, while observatories are proposing to be phased out. for human exploration, spaceflight, the plants calls for transitioning from use of the international space station to commercial low worth platforms at the end of the decade while nasa also plans to begin an annual cadence artemis mission to the moon . no sugar coating the current budget proposal, i recognize tough decisions need to be made. it is essential that this committee understand what roles and decisions in the proposal over others as we evaluate trade-offs. it is imperative nasa has clear plans for action on either side of the present budget horizon. a lot is at stake.

i am concerned, as the chairman is mentioned, but reductions in workforce, including those of my home state of california, resulting from prolonged mission timelines. losing skill talent is a further setback and cannot be erased. we need to look holistically at the implications of the 2025 proposal and the health of nasa now and in the future. how will we position nasa to be in the future, or will we stay on the tail as other nations, that do not share our values, i will continue to ensure that we position nasa for success and the united states continues to lead in the expiration of outerspace. i want to thank you, administrator, for direct leadership, thank you for your service. >> i yield back. our witness is bill nelson, who serves as the 14th

administrator of the national aeronautics and space administration. his career includes over four decades in public service representing florida in both chambers during his 30 years in congress. i would most importantly include six years of chairing the house science committee's space science and application subcommittee. that is a real resume item, mr. director. thank you for joining us. i recognize administrator nelson to present his testimony. >> mr. chairman, with your permission, to submit my written statement in the record. if i may, to give you a couple of thoughts and let's get your questions. >> without opposition. absolutely. >> nasa is a storied organization. this agency does amazing things. a lot of the things that we do is on the edge. next monday, about 10:30, at

night, we will launch another vehicle, it is a human rated, the first time america has ever had three human rated spacecraft. the one that will go to the moon, which is orion on top of the big rocket, the sls. the dragon, witch flies on the falcon 9, which goes to and from the international space station. now, the third one, the boeing star liner, this is the first test flight. we have two test pilots, which will more, and sunny william -- butch wilmore, and sunny williams.

if successful, we will have three, the first time this has ever happened. it is all a part of us continuing to come in the human space program, explore the heavens. we are learning so much on the international space station. it is an international station, 15 nations anticipate. there is science that is just coming of age. some of the pharmaceutical research is just going to knock our socks off. we are also going back to the moon after a half-century. we are going back, not just to go to the moon, for the reason of learning enough to send humans to mars in the decade of the 2040s.

nasa's science program, you read about it all the time, the james webb space telescope, look at what it is discovering. i could go on and on. the aviation program, we will fly a needle nose jet this year, proving the different design that we can fly passengers supersonic across populated areas, and not have the big bang bang of the sonic boom, but more of a muffled roar. so, it goes on and on. i will stop right there well before the five minutes, mr. chairman, and be delighted to try to answer your questions. >> thank you, director nelson, for your testimony. the chair recognizes himself to

five minutes administrator nelson, it was recently reported that nasa is considering changing the mission profile for artemis 3, scheduled for september of 2026, currently intended to land humans on the lunar surface . the potential change in profile would result in a mission where astronauts do not land on the lunar surface but rather remain in low earth orbit. is nasa actively considering an alternative for that mission profile to artemis 3 ? what is going on? >> this is part of our commercial program, spacex is signed up to land in september of 2026. next year, september of 2025, we are going to launch a crew of four, three americans and the canadian. they will test out the spacecraft.

it will circle the moon and come home. a year after that, spacex is signed up to provide a lander where we would go into a new kind of orbit, a polar orbit, on a regular -- an elliptical orbit, the crew would transfer to the lander. that is what is provided in the contract. the article you are referring to is speculation on what happens if they are not ready. naturally, people think about these things. but the plan is to land, and it would be two astronauts on a crew of four that would get

into the lander and go down and land. i might say, think about the apollo program and the artemis program . artemis 3, the first lander spacex is contracted for, is the equivalent of apollo 9, apollo 10, and apollo 11. so, it is a very accelerated program. >> very much so. the 2023 strategy for planetary science suggests a total cost of $5.3 billion for the mars sample return, significant increases to that estimate cost have triggered several project reviews including the nasa ongoing efforts to reassess the

program. has nasa reconsidered the approach for the mars sample return? is nasa still targeting a total project cost of $3.5 billion? >> $3.5 billion is unrealistic. i pulled the cord on it, mr. chairman, two weeks ago, because the independent review boards had said the cost was going up to $11 billion. and, it was very possible that we were not even going to get the sample back until 2040. that is simply unacceptable. so, what i did, i said, i want to go out to all nasa centers, including the jet propulsion laboratory. i want to go out to industry, which we now have done with a request for information.

to come up with new ideas. i checked in yesterday with the head of the jet propulsion laboratory on how their ideas are, and they are quite excited about coming up with new ideas that can bring that cost down and get that sample back earlier. >> certainly, we wait with enthusiasm. one last question, in october, the president submitted a domestic supplemental request to congress requesting funding for a u.s. orbit vehicle to safely decommission the iss, and funding to rebuild the nasa facilities in guam and the armstrong flight research center . congress has not passed the supplemental appropriation package yet to date, is the funding for the guam hurricane package including in the budget request for 2025?

>> no, sir just like the department of defense, that request for guam is request in an emergency supplemental because that was as a result of a typhoon. our request is $400 million, of which we have been cutting and pasting and chewing gum and bailing wire as an interim solution. our request pales by comparison to dod, dod is something like $2 billion request. ours is $400 million and also in that request is the request for the funding for the de-orbit vehicle. why is it an emergency? it should not be yet, the regular request for appropriations. because we don't know what

putin is going to do. we built the international space station with the russians and operate it with the russians, we have had no hiccup at all with the cosmonauts for moscow, mission control, and houston mission control of which we have both russians and americans in both. we do an integrated crew, an american astronaut on the dragon . a russian cosmonaut. but we don't know what the president of russia is going to do and we could be an emergency situation where we have to get the structure, as big as a football stadium down safely in 2031.

that is why i am pleading to you while in the appropriations committee to put that in the emergency supplemental bill that will be coming up later. >> how much money are we talking about for the de-orbit vehicle? >> fiscal year 2024, $180 billion for a total cost of over six years, $1.5 billion. >> my time is expired. i will turn to the ranking member. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman and mr. administrator. you have to make tough decisions given the budget and i don't envy you. interesting to hear about the mars sample return decision, and i understand it better now that you have given us your testimony. are we really starting over with a clean slate on this?

what is the need for additional technical analysis? where are we on this? >> we are not starting over. as a matter of fact, i am just saying, we cannot do it at $11 billion. >> i am not disagreeing. >> and a sample not returning until 2040. let me give you an example of what the director of the jet propulsion laboratory said, they are looking at, instead of this huge margins lander -- huge mars lander, and a vehicle , which was the original concept and one thing of many that was running up the cost. use existing legacy, proven techniques and hardware. such as the sky crane that landed two landers, rovers, the size of the truck.

we have perseverance up there now. digging around. these samples are about the size of a cigar sealed in titanium tubes. we want to get most of those back. so, come up with new concepts, bring new ideas come in this case it was using a particular legacy. but we want all those ideas to come forth. then, sometime this fall, when they are on a deadline, we will evaluate them. at that point, make a decision going forward and hopefully it will be much more and what is in line with what the independent review board said and we have had about three of those. that was that the cost should not exceed somewhere in the $6 billion range. >> let me go to another topic.

in the nasa authorization act of 2022, we extended the enhanced use leasing authority for 10 years. that allows nasa to lease underutilized non-excess property owned by the federal government under the nasa jurisdiction to private-sector amenities, state and local governments, academic institutions, other federal agencies did in terms of ames, this has been successful with cal berkeley about open, carnegie mellon, and various other entities. usgs, a synergy has been created. how has this work around united states? >> and google. they are another major -- >> they are maintaining the field.

>> yes, ma'am. not long ago i was on capitol hill begging to get enhanced use authority, instead of doing this piecemeal, one year at a time, to get it for a number of years in the future to do exactly what you have outlined. another one would be, for example, we have this huge area , because, when you test rocket engines, you want to have a buffer. so that people are not disturbed by the sound of the rocket test. what we have done is we are brought in other agencies of the federal government. it becomes a mixed-use space

facility. same thing at the kennedy space center. the congressman can tell you, that place has come alive. those old rocket pads that had weeds growing on them have come back to life. there is a lot of commercial activity that has allowed, because of, with regard to the kennedy space center, the mixed- use with the enhanced lease use . >> if i may, let me make one more comment. the jet propulsion laboratory in california recently had to lay off more than 500 skilled, talented employees as part of the pullback on mrs. i am not disputing your decision, but tragic to lose that talent, do

we have a plan to recapture that kind of talent? people with decades of experience. it is a tragic situation. do we have a way to recapture that? >> let me try to set the table for you as to why this occurred. had we had our 2024 request, and 2025 request, that would not have happened. however, congress in his wisdom , and i can tell you, if i had been in your seat, i would have voted for the bill because the alternative was the federal government to go into default. and the government full faith and credit of the federal government to be impugned. and the sacrifices, the trade- offs, or the compromise, if you will, to get the votes to pass

that in both houses, was to cut spending in both 2024 and 2025. nasa was cut $2.5 billion, almost, in each of the years 2024 and 2025. science, nasa science, just in 2024, was cut $1 billion. so, if i have a smaller potato sack that only holds five pounds of potatoes, and i have 10 pounds that i want to get, it is hard for me to get those 10 pounds in that five pound sack. >> i have gone over, and i appreciate your comments, we should look in the mirror, i appreciate that. thank you, mr. administrator i yield back. >> the chair recognizes the

gentleman from florida, congressperson posey. >> how do we handle infrastructure needs? >> yes, sir. you cannot build infrastructure without money. where do we cut in the budget? i just gave you one example, we are trying to still succeed with the mars sample return. at a cost of about one half of what it was going to be. infrastructure is one of the biggest problems we have. it is aging infrastructure. it is in your district, but it is in every center and nasa facility in the country.

what i am hoping, is, when you will get through with the cycle of 2024 and 2025, come 2026, with all of the other physical things you have to consider, there may be more appropriations for nasa to address its facilities needs. >> can you speak to the importance of the commercial partners in supporting the space station? >> absolutely. they are. look at all the science with commercial partners that we have going on. not only pharmaceuticals, but the planetary science that we have going on.

commercial partners, as we go back to the moon, we don't go back just as the u.s. government, we are going back with commercial partners an example is, spacex and blue origin are developing landers and, when we have both, we will make a choice between the two. commercial parts of nasa happen to go back to the 2010 nasa bill of which kay bailey hutchison of texas and i had something to do with. >> could you explain how china uses space as a foreign-policy tool? >> how china does for all of us do? let me say that, when we fly a foreign astronaut, that is a part of a foreign-policy tool.

when we do a foreign experiment , when the university of edinburgh is a major principal investigator on the james webb space telescope, that is all foreign-policy as well. likewise, china does, tries, but is not nearly as successful as we are because they are much more secretive in their space program. >> how do we counter that announcement that they will invite international astronauts to fly on their space station? we have done that. >> we are not going to counter it. we will see if they do it and to what extent did just like they say, they want to put international contributions into an experimental place on the south pole of the moon.

of course, my concern, they don't get their first and say this is our area, you stay out. the south pole of the moon is an important part. we think. because, we think there is water. if there is water, there is rocket fuel. that is one reason we are going to the south pole of the moon. >> they are not going to study the origin of man or collect rocks, they are going there to colonize and everything they do has a military component. i am about to run out of time. >> the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from oregon. >> nice to see you come administrator nelson. i thank you for focusing your testimony on the many ways nasa benefits america. one of those

examples in your testimony is the climate and earth science research, which is essential to the health of the planet, strengthening resilience in our communities and ecosystems. nasa satellites are so critical , giving researchers the data they need to monitor and forecast extreme weather events, climate events. we know that the data provides wonderful educational opportunities to inspire the next generation of scientists and engage them, engage the public. thank you for the new earth information center at your headquarters in washington, d.c. , helping with that critical piece of improving science and medication. you stated in your testimony that much of what we know about our changing planet is rooted in that nasa more than 40 years of earth observations. satellite resource supports that scientific mission and the

scientific community providing an access of a variety of measurement data, air quality, emission, surface biology just to name a few, and i'm excited about the contributions of the recently launched pace satellite . to improve understanding of ocean health. the nasa budget for fiscal year 2025 proposes to restructure the earth site observatory program by breaking missions into smaller elements. how did nasa arrive at this new strategy and what effects could this change have on nasa approaches earth measurements and climate research? >> our strategy is to understand the very specific, exactly what is happening to our earth, and its climate. we have about two dozen spacecraft up there now that are bringing us various pieces of technical information. and

we are pulling this together in a composite 3-d understanding, precisely what is happening. you mentioned, one, more recent , the p.a.c.e. p.a.c.e. is able to look at plankton and we are able to trace it in the ocean like we have never been. the "a" is aerosols which clearly has an effect on our climate. we had another one, a spacecraft, it was supposed to just look at dust storms and how that was affecting the climate and lo and behold, we got a big byproduct from it, it could identify methane emissions very specifically.

so that we could try to stop those. or, in the case it may be an industry, the industry may not know it had methane emissions. >> i want to get another question in. i don't question the value of the program, i want to watch how the change in the budget, in this new strategy will affect it. you talk about the work nasa is doing to the carbonized the aviation industry and the sustainable financial partnership supports projects to increase aircraft fuel efficiency. and invest in electrified -- reducing aircraft greenhouse gas emissions and considering numerous delays and cost overruns, what steps is nasa taking to see this project to completion and how can congress support that work nasa is doing on sustainable aviation? >> well, we have a serious project that we invested upwards of $600 million to $700

million in a joint project with boeing on producing a midrange, single aisle transport aircraft that will reduce fuel consumption by 30%. that project is underway and it will be substantial you take, like the boeing 737, is the most heavily trafficked commercial airliner. if you can save 30% of fuel by a different design of the wing, a high wing that is long and thin, and therefore, being high can support bigger fan jets, you can get 30%, combination between the engine and the wing. that is a substantial effort. we started on electric aircraft , but that has been overtaken by industry. you will see a lot of industry

coming out with electric powered aircraft. all of this is to do exactly what the goal is you stated very eloquently. that is, the word is "sustainable." i call it save energy in flying. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from texas, mr. weber. >> good to see you again. i am amazed you know so much about these things, aircraft, where do you store these things ? up here? >> used to be like a bathtub, you fill up the bathtub, you drain it, there is a residue. you fill it up again, drain it out, a little more residue. over the number of years, i get an accumulation. >> i have this sinking feeling

you have discussed this before. many of the employees at johnson space center live in my district, the facility is in a different district, we are trying to route clear creek around that so it can be my district. we have discussed that the orbiting of the iss at the end of the decade, but not what that does to the people that are employed backing that up. what does nasa plan to do with the workforce that currently supports the iss mission after 2030? is there a plan? >> we want to keep them but that depends on what you appropriate. as a matter of fact, the fact that this two years, 2024 and 2025, nasa has been cut between the two years, $4.7 billion from our initial request. that will have an effect on some of the contracts. at all nasa centers.

i am hoping that, when you get to 2026, the congress may see the wisdom of some of these programs. let me assure you, you have a lot of folks in johnson, a lot of really good folks, good programs, you will never have to face the situation i had to face as a senator for the kennedy space center when we shut down the space shuttle. they have 15,000 employees and they went immediately down to 7000 employees. that is not happening anywhere in nasa now. it is much more manageable but a lot depends on the congress in the future. >> i will remember that i know that was heavy on people's hearts. i am assuming they are thinking about now, or facing a similar demise.

are you communicating this to the employees? >> absolutely. what we are also doing, because you posited the question about the orbiting of the international space station, we want to do that, only when we have commercial space stations in low earth orbit in order to do the research and the training, and so forth, we need to do in low earth orbit for our astronauts as they go further out into the cosmos. we think that, by 2031, the business case will have reasonably been made for low earth orbit commercial space stations. and we have put seed money, significant seed money, into three commercial operations that are now developing commercial stations.

>> we appreciate nasa taking the lead on that thank you for that. china's -- they have a space station in orbit and the ccp would love to whittle down on america's space program, the orbit of the iss, what is the plan for nasa to maintain american competitiveness with china when it comes to presence and low earth orbit? expand on that. we don't want china to be in the lead. you remember captain kirk, the final frontier, extrapolate on what you mean by that. >> by the way, it means beyond low earth orbit, also moon, mars , and beyond. >> i agree. >> for example, we never want to give up this incredible scientific research in leo.

we are on the cusp of major breakthroughs coming up on pharmaceuticals for disease let me give you an example of two. number one, a very effective drug on certain types of cancer, keytruda. but the cancer patient has to take intravenously, frequently, long periods of time. with that drug, they found out how, through protein crystal growth on the space station, to make that drug into a shot instead of intravenous. so that the patient can go in, get a quick shot at the doctor, that is one example. stem cell research.

being used on a plethora of diseases. what happens when you grow stem cells in 0g, you can grow a lot more of them. on earth, when you grow them, they club to the bottom and a lot of them died. in space, they are suspended and they don't die as much. you freeze them and bring them back. that is in its infancy but there is promise. >> we appreciate the help. >> the chair recognizes congresswoman ross. >> thank you for holding this hearing and administrator nelson, thank you for the fabulous job you are doing and nasa. my state of north carolina has contributed to nasa for decades, the home state of

james webb. of course, christine darden, one of the hidden figures who broke barriers in the s.t.e.m. industry and racial and gender equality, from north carolina, we have three, including my colleague. christine was the first african- american woman to be promoted into sr. executive service at the langley research center. just last week, i got to join governor cooper, a local educator, and a third grade class from the explorers school in my district to honor christina cook. she is a three-time graduate of north carolina state university and the only woman selected to join the artemis 2 mission. she was also a participant in an all women's spacewalk, which we are still celebrating. i want you to know that i will continue to fight for robust

funding for nasa so we can keep doing incredible things that you have been leaving. and, everything that makes groundbreaking research possible. so, i want to follow up on some of the workforce issues that we have heard about today. we hear a lot from the burgeoning commercial space sector, and we know that that benefits the nation, exploration, our economy, and that is good. it also means that there is increased competition for trained aerospace professionals. i wanted to know, to what extent does that increased competition for science and technical professionals affect nasa and your ability to fill and retain experienced top-notch people? >> congresswoman, you have put your foot -- your finger on the

allure of private industry. to bring nasa folks into private industry because they can pay them so much more. that is a real concern. however, there seems to be a mysterious pixie dust at nasa. that people enjoy working there. the proof is in the pudding about what some of these wizards do. now, certainly, any success we may have is because of the commercial sector as well. because the body you think of as nasa, about 60,000 employees, is basically about 17,000 civil servants and 45,000 contractors.

they all wear the nasa badge. but they are all part of the nasa family. it is the combination that we have been able to be successful. again, i tell you, everything we do is on the edge. when we launch next monday night , it is white knuckle time. but that is the business we are in. these folks really are rather incredible. >> absolutely agree with you. nasa s.t.e.m. are important to build a pipeline and it is important to track, impact efficiency of our investments and i'm glad to see your progress in developing and maximizing the use of s.t.e.m. gateway , that is the database

that lets us know what is going on. could you speak more about the s.t.e.m. gateway and your evaluation work in the office of s.t.e.m. engagement ? >> yes. you have been generous with us in the appropriations to keep this s.t.e.m. effort going. reaching out with grants, to universities, colleges, community colleges, all over america. we particularly, for example, make an effort to get into rural colleges and universities so that we are not missing the talent that may be hidden, like christina cook. so, there is a very serious effort. we have a huge intern program at nasa that we pay them. we hiring 30% of our interns. i

wish you could see these interns and talk to them, their eyes are as big as this. s.t.e.m. is very much a part. mr. chairman, as a part of s.t.e.m. , but we learn from apollo when we went to the moon and did all that, it so excited two generations of students, that they became engineers and scientists, and technicians. we are going to see the same thing come out of the artemis program as we go back to the moon and then to mars. >> thank you. >> the chair turns to the gentleman from texas, mr.

babin. >> i like your analogy about the bathtub, we all have some residue. thank you very much. thank you for what you are doing and your inspiration. i say that very sincerely. talking about s.t.e.m. and the excitement and the inspiration that nasa instills in our youth to go forward and create these wizards. very exciting, thank you. i would like to start by keeping priority programs, talking about this, on track, submitting a fiscal year 2025 budget request that largely complies with the fiscal responsibility act that the president signed in may. as we work on the 2025 request, we have to finalize the fiscal year 2024 budget. i would like

to work with you to ensure that nasa remains on track despite the challenging budget environment that we find ourselves in now. as you work with appropriate is to finalize the 2024 spending plan, i would like to call your attention to a few priorities to maintain existing funding levels within the space operations budget. congress provided you with a great deal of latitude and we hope you are able to use this in a way, to use this funding for space operations and i want to make sure we are all on the same page. the final 2024 appropriations for nasa space operations is $46.7 million below 2023 levels, the 2024 request included $180 million for the de-orbit vehicle. the contractor slips several times, under the current plan

to work contract this summer, nasa could be challenged to allocate funding for this vehicle within fiscal year 2024 based on current schedules. i believe, within this given timeline nasa can maintain current iss operations at 2023 rates. it is critical now more than ever to maintain the full functionality of the international space station that mr. weber mentioned in his questioning and support our current crew and cargo missions because of the amazing things that are going on. i was a healthcare professional, a story about cancer, creating drugs, and things in zero g are fastening. on capitol hill, you mentioned the necessity of keeping the iss fully operational until we have a follow-on cld. it is critical we maintain our presence in leo for the reason

he brought up, the chinese craft is up there as we speak. i know you don't have this information at your fingertips right now, but will you provide us with the following information as soon as possible so we can understand the full range of options nasa has in implementing the 2024 appropriations so that iss program can continue to return the great science and advanced exploration that has been coming back to number one, the amount of funding obligated for the u.s. dv in 2024? an updated schedule for the word of the contract for usdv? a list of full-time equivalent personnel for the iss program for each fiscal quarter for the

last five years? contract associated with the iss program including contractors over the last five years? last, number five, workforce cost and contractor rates planned for the iss program over the next five years? mr. administrator, i stand ready to work with you, you are a joy to work with and i always appreciated you and the great work you have done in your capacity as our administrator. but we need to ensure that nasa has the necessary workforce and funding to enable the continued success, 22 years, of the international space station. can i count on you to work with me on this? >> of course. i can tell you that the first question you asked, in the 2024 budget, there is $180 million, for starting of a u.s. de-orbit

vehicle, which i am begging congress, in the next emergency appropriations bill, the one that will address warm and the typhoon -- guam and the typhoon for the department of defense and nasa, that you include, the argument i made earlier in the hearing, that that is an emergency because we don't know what president putin will be doing and can't count we will have cooperation to the next six years to be able to de- orbit the station safely, most of it will burn up, but the big chunks, to put them safely in the graveyard in the southern pacific ocean.

we desperately request that that $180 million and the rest of the six year total funding of $1.5 billion for the u.s. de- orbit vehicle be put in the emergency supplement appropriations. >> i understand. >> thank you. the chair recognizes mr. sorensen for five minutes >> i joined the chairman and the ranking member and welcoming administrator nelson back to the committee. thank you for your leadership of nasa during this important time, for our nation time and for our nation's space program. as a self-described science nerd, being a meteorologist and now a member of congress, i often tell my neighbors back in illinois how important science is i explain to them how investing in science helps grow

our economy, helps create good paying sustainable jobs and addresses problems our neighbors face everyday. and that is why i champion investing in nasa, one of our nation's leading science agencies and why the work that you and folks at nasa do is so important. just this month, millions of americans were looking up through their glasses at an eclipse. it's my hope that the next generation is interested in science because of what happened. but also, as we look up, we're learning more and more about how solar storms on the sun bring us not only beautiful displays of the aurora borealis, but recent events that disrupt technology and infrastructure. why is nasa proposing to cut so much of the hilo physics division funding if we have such a need and understanding? >> well, we're not, congressman. and, by the way, as congressman

babbin is still here, i want to thank the two of you for how you get along, you as ranking and he as chairman in the subcommittee. we wouldn't of, had we not had to cut a billion dollars from science. and that as a result of the compromises that were made in order to -- for the country not to go into default on its debt. and i understand that. and i said i would have voted that way. but it's a hard reality for us, and you have to make some choices of where you're spending. now, the truth is we got a lot of good stuff going on in hilophysics, and so we're going to continue, the president proposes, the congress disposes. >> right, right. so, administrator, if we in

congress are forced to continually cut budgets year after year, does that mean that there's going to be a growing gap in funding because the public sector and the private sector move far away? and so i guess what i'm saying is how do we meet the objectives, for instance, of the i.s.s. deorbit and the artemis missions, if we have a growing gap in funding? >> well, that's what i have been pleading for that come '26, when you get out from under the constraints of '24 and '25 that you will hopefully be a little more generous in making sure that there's not that gap that you describe. >> what do you think we need to do to make sure -- i'm going to go back to the young s.t.e.m. student for a moment. when we look forward to what we are going to learn, how do we continue to build the work

force 245 we're going to need to meet our objectives? >> well, the enthusiasm is certainly there. we're trying to steer them in a way by having them -- and we have a lot of interns. we send out a lot of grants, we try to distribute that across the board so that you're finding talent wherever it is and get them enthused. another thing we do, we have a secret weapon, and it's called an astronaut in a blue flight suit. >> right. >> and we frequently have our astronauts go in to classrooms, and i'm telling you, there's nothing like getting attention and suddenly excitement into the s.t.e.m. field when they start talking about space flight. >> i always look forward to

bringing nasa astronauts to my district. i hope we can do that here soon. my time has expired, but i yield back. thank you so much, administrator. >> thank you. >> i'd like to recognize the gentleman from california, mr. goor see a. >> thank you, chairman. mr. administrator, good to see you again. it feels like it was just last week because it was. >> i've been losing sleep over this mars sample recovery thing for a couple months now, and jpl, especially to use your bathtub metaphor, the brain drain right there is real. we are losing critical national security talent and work force there. i know the plan. i don't disagree with it. i get the metaphor of, hey, you had a five-pound bag, and you got 10 pounds of potatoes that you're trying to fit into that bag, and you had to make trades. but i would submit that this is no small potato. what i'm afraid of is that when we go to open that bag up in fy

'26 when we get back on track and you get a response from this rf5 that you're going to be potentially seeing, you know, potato chip crumbs at the bottom that used to be jpl. so what i'm worried about is the next four months, five months. is there something we can do collectively to keep them whole, to not impart another significant impact to jpl's work force? because i'm hearing it from adjacent domains, missions, agencies that those layoffs are affecting, you know, not just nasa science but also dod, nro, true national security implications across the board. and we don't needs to get into the specifics there. but can we work together to look at potential options to bridge the next four or five

months somehow to prevent that bathtub from being drained to the point where it's irrepairable damage? >> congressman, i've been losing sleep over this too. the good news is what i reported earlier -- you, i think, were out of the room. >> i was here. i gotcha. i heard you. >> i had that conversation yesterday with the head of jpl, and dr. leren feels that they're going to be able to come up with a retrievable of the mars sample enough sample return and get that cost down by using new and creative ideas and old legacy ideas that are much less costly.

and so i approach this optimistically, and certainly to get a sample back before 2040 -- >> sure. >> -- that's too long. >> that's way too long. so i guess walk me through some the next -- from an acquisition timeline and your acquisition strategy on this rfi, you're going to get responses here in may, june, some questions i'm sure that are going to go back to jpo and other industry partners. is there an opportunity to fund before, say, october 1st and start funding this new approach at some level that is not just necessarily the $330 million that we ended up landing on? >> it's somewhere in the fall that we can take the ideas that are generated and then put that into a contract. >> okay. so it may be enough confidence for a vendor -- and i'm not trying to put a finger on the

scale on source election here. i want to be clear. this is an open competition. i'm assuming no one has the inside track, and this is not prewired for anyone. but when you get the good ideas back from all of the competitors, you may be able to instill enough confidence in one of -- whoever the down select folks are, one or two, however many players are, to go ahead and do long lead investments on their own at risk knowing that there's a lifeline coming in an fy '25 line item that would allow them to go execute this program with confidence? >> that's my hope, congressman. >> okay. that's very encouraging. that's, i think, a very important thing for us all to be aligned on. >> congressman, hi to do battle to keep this thing from being canceled. >> i know. you did god's work, and we didn't help you. i think it's the executive branch as much as the legislative branch. but i think the key now is to figure out how to make one plus

one equal three and to get to a lower price point, get the samples back before 2040, and then -- but more importantly, keep that center of the universe asset in pasadena whole. and if not whole, at least sufficiently so that they're -- sufficiently staffed so they're not getting below critical mass so i appreciate everything you've done, mr. administrator, looking forward to that and continuing that partnership over the next few months. appreciate you. yield back. >> thank you very much. now i'd like to recognize the gentlelady from north carolina. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you, administrator nelson, for being here with us today. the safety of nasa's astronaut is always top of mind for me and for everyone involved in overseeing our nation's space program. i know how deeply and personally you care about safety, and i know how vigilant

you are ensuring nasa maintains a robust safety culture informed by the lessons of challenger and columbia of which we are so tragically familiar. but the world of human space flight has changed dramatically for nasa over the past decade through the commercial crew program, the agency now regularly sends its astronauts to the international space station on rockets that are designed, built and operationally managed by private contractors. the agency is increasingly looking to use this commercial services model for other human space flight programs as well. as a result, nasa must be capable of conducting rigorous oversight over the safety cultures of its contractors to prevent the development of blind spots in its own ability to ensure mission safety. i believe it is critical for the agency to have well-crafted

and targeted oversight procedures that can ensure its contractors are every bit as committed to a culture of safety as nasa is itself. so my first question is what tools and procedures does nasa possess to evaluate contractor safety culture? >> that is at the top of the list of everything that we do. we evaluate them, we are all over the design, we are all over the building of whatever the spacecraft or instruments are, and at the end of the day, nasa if it is a human space flight, nasa has the veto. >> thank you for that. >> if nasa makes recommendations to a contractor about how they can improve their safety culture, do you expect the agency to follow up

with the contractor to make sure the recommendations have been adopted? >> we do that, and we do it all the time. >> okay. and finally, do you believe nasa's ability to conduct safety culture oversight of commercial service providers is impacted by the agency's reliance on those providers for indispensable mission support? >> if that means are we letting anything slip, it better not. >> that's what i mean. thank you. >> may i point out to you, congresswoman, that one of the tragic results of inattention was the space shuttle challenger, and the pilot of challenger was mike smith from north carolina. >> thank you. i yield back, mr. chair. >> yes, ma'am, thank you. and i'd like to recognize the

gentlelady from oklahoma, ms. bice. five minutes. >> thank you, chairman. administrator, it was great to see you in oklahoma under a bit of sad circumstances with the passing of general thomas stafford. we celebrated his life a couple weeks ago, and i was honored to be a part of that, and thank you for recognizing and honoring such an incredible oklahoman. let me start by asking you -- i am still fairly new to congress. this is my second term. and what i have noticed is that there seems to be a lot of work being done in the space arena, but we tend to in some cases siloing a lot of that work. how can nasa, the faa and the dod strategically pull resources and expertise to conduct essential research in an area of fiscal -- in n era of fiscal constraint that ensures we'll have continued innovation crucial for maintaining global leadership in civilian aviation?

>> well, aviation research is the first "a" in nasa, the national aeronautics and space administration. so where did the wing tips come from that improve the efficiency of the wing? where does the design of the wing -- often these things that make aviation safer, more efficient, and earlier in the meeting i described, for example, the joint project that we have with boeing to try to have that single aisle, mid- range transport save 30% of fuel. all of this is a major part of what we do. it's not just space, it's not just aeronautics, it's also

climate as well because we have the instruments that measure the climate. we're coming in to a new era of air mobility, particularly in urban areas. so the old idea of the jetsons suddenly flying around, that's right upon us. , and we are researching that. and what we found is that a lot of industry, commercial enterprises are having major breakthroughs in that. and so i'm -- we're all over aviation, and that is clearly a very proud part of nasa. >> you sort of briefly touched on this, but i think it's worth maybe diving a little deeper into it. as you look at sort of what the next phase of space looks like,

what keeps you up at night? >> at the end of the day defying the forces of gravity with millions of pounds of thrust, putting human beings up there in a very unforgiving atmosphere and bringing them back alive through the fiery heat of re-entry. for the astronauts coming back from the moon, they'll hit 5,000 degrees fahrenheit. so that hopefully doesn't keep me up completely all night, but i know that everything that we do like that, we're right on the edge. but that's the part of discovery. that's the part of adventure. that's the part of being in a

frontier mode, going out there and doing unusual things. president kennedy said it best at rice stadium in september of '62, he said we go to the moon and do other things not because it's easy, but because it's hard. and what we do is hard, but it's worth doing. >> thank you. and i'll just maybe wrap up by mentioning there's a lot of work being done i think by nasa to encourage young people to consider getting into the sort of aviation space, and i think we need to make sure that we continue that and focus on it because i have been to, you know, some of the facilities, and when you see these young people walking through, looking astronaut suits and previous videos, they get such excitement, and i think we need to continue to foster that

because they are the future of nasa. with that, mr. chairman, i yield. >> thank you very much. and i'd like to recognize the gentleman from illinois, mr. kasten. >> thank you, mr. acting chair. and thank you, mr. administrator for being here. i want to chat a little bit about the tempo mission that you got under way. and if i understand this right, and correct me if i've got this wrong, u.s. synchronous monitoring north america and sort of neighborhood level granularity, am i about right on that, about the monitoring capability it's going to have? >> just one second. >> this is the mission that's monitoring local pollutants in the atmosphere. >> well, it is one of the ones that is doing that, and what we are trying to understand, all these different things that

affect our climate such as dust, such as aerosols, such as the changing of the elevation of oceans and fresh water, all of these missions are designed on some particular aspect of then putting it all together in a 3-d composite. >> yup. and i'm totally supportive of the mission. i guess my first question is just is that -- is that going to be the highest temporal and spatial resolution we're going to have on this level of monitoring, at least from a space-based system? >> well, it is the next iteration, but we'll get even more sophisticated as we go on. >> and will the data that comes out of that be publicly available, or is there -- is there any concern about -- i mean, i could think of national security reasons why you might not -- we might want to be a little cautious about a particular plume. i can also imagine reasons why

the private sector might be reluctant. so what's going to be the process of that data being made to the public? >> it's available. >> in realtime as it's released? >> well, there'll be a lag of some seconds, you know, as it comes back to earth. >> okay. that's cool. is there -- is there the potential to do that globally? and i'm thinking about things like several years ago there was this concern about hydrofloro carbon leak from china that were violating international treaties, and i would imagine from a national security perspective if we had the ability to pinpoint where that leak was coming from at a specific point, it might be in our national interest, the chinese might have been reluctant, is there the potential to make this global, or does that create some diplomatic problems? >> global. >> global, okay. >> just like what i mentioned

earlier. we have one up there called e.m.e.t. it was going to look at dust coming off of the sahara. lo and behold, unexpectedly, it can pinpoint very specifically methane leaks. >> oh, wow! >> and that's global. >> so you are going to be monitoring methane from this as well? >> absolutely. >> it's already happening. >> well, you're reading my mind, and i'm intrigued, and let us know how we can continue to help this. i'm -- a part of what i'm thinking about on this is that we -- we are going down the path to have global methane monitoring, global methane tracking as a climate forcing compound in the atmosphere. we know that methane leak rates exceed what is documented, right? you know, if you look at like the balance on natural gas extraction and what's sold, we know there's a gap that's bigger. and it's really hard to

pinpoint exactly who's responsible. to the extent that this has the ability to get granular and temporal, i would assume this starts to be something where we can look and say, okay, this specific entity at this time of day was operating in that location, and so we have some accountability. will that data then -- i guess what's the plan to coordinate with other agencies on the use of this data? >> it is available, and it also is very specific. this is what was such a pleasant surprise about the spacecraft e.m.e.t. we can pinpoint methane emissions now so specifically that if, for example, there's a real polluter, we got the evidence, but what we find out is that some industries don't even know that they are

emitting methane, and so this is valuable information for that industry to be able to stop it. >> well, i -- >> and methane, of course, is one of the major greenhouse gases and carbon dioxide. >> it's precisely why i asked the question. we were up in alaska last year and looking at permafrost melt and how all that goes. it's fascinating. happy to have you here, proud to have you here. looking forward to working with you to make sure we can continue to expand these programs. yield back. >> thank you very much. now i'd like to recognize the gentleman from georgia, dr. mccormick. >> thank you, mr. chair. and it's good to see you, mr. administrator, senator, captain, astronaut. there are seldom times i get to see somebody who has as many titles as i do and more, and, actually, somebody who i'm a

little envious of and one thing i've always wanted to do that haven't been able to do. as a matter of fact, if you have advice for a guy who would love to follow your tracks into space some day as a dock and pilot, just let me know. i'd be happy to meet with you for lunch. >> we need medical doctors to go to mars. >> i'm sure a lot of my constituents will likely send me there. appreciate you being here today. in all seriousness, nasa and space exploration are virtual -- are vital for our national security, economic growth, scientific advancement, international prestige and our inspiration as americans. just recently, astro lab incorporated a startup found by a veteran space flight robotic engineer who developed a prototype, an exploration vehicle flex. if nasa integrates flex into the artemis program, it will mark the return of passenger-

capable rover to the lunar surface since apollo 17 in 1972. it's this kind of discovery that inspires the future generations of scientists, engineers and explorers, pretty exciting to me too. with this being said, nasa has been plagued by the same issues for years, constant deadline extensions, flawed cost estimating processes and poor financial management. administrator nelson, in your testimony, you highlighted the great success of the international space station and the milestone of 23 years with continuous human presence in low-orbit earth: as nasa approachesice 2030 deadline to decommission the national space station and aims to transition into platforms in the low earth orbit, do you believe nasa has an obligation to ensure continued human presence in the low earth orbit? >> yes. >> great. and, you know, it's funny.

i'm going to get a little off track. we just talked about some of the pollutants and how earth might be warming. and i agree, there might be climate change. i think the one thing that worries me is that we get away from science. in a senate article that was published back in 2007, it talked about the heating of other planets in our solar system. that was back in 2007. it's continued. would you say there's more congreet carbon dioxide and vehicle emissions in neptune, jupiter and mars during this period of time, just like there is in this earth? >> i don't know. >> i would say probably not because i don't know of anybody who's building concrete or who has vehicle emissions, those planets are also heating. i would say that's pretty much factual unless you know of some life that you haven't told us about so far. >> well, what i do know is that we are seeing the heating up of the earth, and our stleuments

would indicate that. >> i'm not saying that at all, sir. i'm saying it has in other planets in the solar system that doesn't -- we love facts. we love to talk about things that matter, things that we can change. but i also don't want to waste time and money on things we cannot change. back in the '70s, we were talking about global cooling, during some of the highest carbon dioxide emissions of all time. and we've seen decreases in certain pollutants while the earth is heating. so i just want to have a scientific conversation with you and i about what's really causing the heating, and can we effect it or do we need to put our money elsewhere to help us adjust for those while the earth continues its natural cycle? because i am a scientist. i do understand how much carbon dioxide is out there and how much the use produces as a result of that carbon dioxide. would you agree it could be due to something other than methane and texas that's causing the earth to heat? >> well, there are multiple.

>> there you go. yes, sir. and that's where i agree with you 100% as a scientist, multiple factors, some which we can, and some which we cannot affect. i know i'm almost out of time. i want to ask you one more quick question. commercial and international patterns are key to success of the artemis campaign. the commercial lunar payloads service housed within the science mission directate has as a resulted in the first ever landing on the moon and commercial landing in over 50 years. are there opportunities other than the commercial payload service and the directate have mutual interest in the commercial capabilities? >> when we are going back to the moon as a result of i take it back to the twbt nasa authorization bill, we said we're going to do it in a different way. we're going back with

commercial partners, the eclipse program that you just mentioned, interestingly is like we are sending scouts into the wilderness ahead of time on the south pole to scout out for us before we get our astronauts there on the surface so that we've got a better idea. one of the things that we're clearly looking for is water. we've got a couple of instruments that are going this year on clips missions, one called intuitive machines that is actually going to be digging on the south pole to see if there's water content. we know there's water there because we've seen the ice in the crevices of the constantly shattered rocks. but this is all a part of making the space program something larger than just as we went to the moon before, and we're going to the moon, by the

way, not just to go to the moon. we're going to the moon to learn how then we can go all the way to mars and beyond. >> thank you, sir. i'm without time, so i yield. thank you. >> i'd like to recognize the gentlewoman from virginia, ms. mcclellan. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. director, senator nelson, i actually am going to start with a question from my 13-year-old son who wants to be an astronomer, who is a big fan of the great observatories. he looks at, uses images from hubble, spitzer and even the now-deorbited compton telescopes. but he wants me to ask you specifically about chondra, the ex-gray telescope that under the current budget proposal looks like will be -- could be

ending, and he's very concerned, as i know a number of astronomers are, that this could leave a blind spot in the collection of x-ray information in the future. so can you assure my 13-year- old son, jackson, that nasa is still committed to x-ray images in space and the data that you collect in that way? >> earlier i had talked about how the compromises that you all had to make which certainly understandable cost $24 and $25 to have less money. in science just in '24, it's a billion dollar cut. and so you have to make some choices. shandra has been phenomenally successful, but we have new missions that are coming on. we're going to keep it going as

much as we can. you just can't sustain it at the previous funding levels. and so we are having a senior review during this year to get community impact on alternative operational scenarios for shandra and the hubble space telescope as well to move to a more cost-effective way. i can't spend for nasa money that we don't have. >> i understand that. i understand that. and i think that question that i just asked is an example of how important it is that nasa makes science fun and exciting for kids because, again, the images that he has seen from these telescopes have gotten

him more interested and fascinated in s.t.e.m. subjects in school than anything else that his father and i could have done. >> may i point out the shandra is 25 years old, and it's having operational issues with regard to thermal problems? so we're going to keep it going as much as we can, but we have to lessen the funding. >> and i understand that. but could you speak to the -- some of nasa's programs that are focused on our younger students, particularly during the summer and time they spend out of school so that we can get more students as passionate about space and science as my son is? >> well, for example, the discoveries that we're having with the james webb space telescope is just phenomenal. everyday almost it seems like there's a new discovery. if he's particularly interested

in far reaches of this universe, it's not too long, we're already discovering other planets with that, the ones that we found thus far are gashes, but we got another mission coming, as your son grows up and as he stays interested in this is going to be interesting, it's called the nancy grace roman space telescope, followed by habitable worlds space telescope in the 2040s. we're going to be able to find other stoney planets that are just the right distance from a medium-sized star that has carbon and water on them. and lo and behold, that's beginning to be another planet like planet earth. i mean, there's so many possibilities out there. >> thank you. and going to more college

students, can you talk about how nasa's budget will continue to support partnerships with hbcus and increase outreach efforts to students who are currently underrepresented in the s.t.e.m. fields? >> we specifically reach out to abcus and other minority institutions in the grants that we give out. we make sure that we do that. an example i gave early in the hearing is that, for example, we give grants to rural universities and colleges that otherwise might not -- a student there might not have the opportunity of receiving a grant like that. so we're trying as hard as we can to distribute it across the country. >> thank you. i yield back. >> thank you very much. and now i'd like to recognize the gentleman from alabama, mr.

strong. >> thank you, chairman babbin, and ranking member lofgren, thank you, mr. nelson, to you and your staff today for being here for nasa's fy25 budget request. i have the i'd like to take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude. i would also like to note that i have full faith and confidence in marshall's newest director, joseph pelfrey. mr. administrator, following an uncrewed sls lay flight in 2022, your agency planned to launch a crude lunar fly-by- mission artemis2 in november of '24. earlier this year your administration revealed that because of various hardware issue, the mission is now delayed until september of 2025, nearly one year behind schedule. mr. administrator, what specifically led to this nearly one-year delay, and what impact will this have on future

artemis missions? >> safety. we do not fly until it's ready. and we never will as long as i'm around. i've seen seven of my friends suddenly be killed in the challenger disaster that was 10 days after the flight that i was on. we are sending a whole new spacecraft and a whole new rocket to the moon. we're going to make sure that that heat shield is functioning as it should be because they are coming in hot and fast they're coming in at mach32 and it's 5,000 degrees. this new spacecraftorrion is a very complicated machine, and

we are just simply not going to fly it until it's ready. >> thank you. delays always lead to need for more money, and in a fiscally constrained environment, that concerns me. as the leader of nasa, what actions have you taken to ensure the artemis3 mission and future artemis missions stay on schedule? >> well, again, we're not going to fly them until they're ready. but in this case, artemis-3 is the first landing on the moon. we have contracted with spacex for september of '26. that's the contractual date. but if they're not ready, obviously we're not going to fly. >> okay. marshall is home to the best propulsion experts in the nation, marshall has also proven successful in manufacturing projects such as the rapid analysis and manufacturing propulsion technology. how is nasa leveraging additive manufacturing to best optimize

technology for future moon-to- mars missions and deep space exploration? >> marshall has a brilliant future in nuclear thermal propulsion and nuclear electric propulsion. and i think it's going to take that to get us to mars because right now it would take us seven or eight months with conventional chemical propulsion. once you got there, you'd have to stay on the surface a year or two until the planets realigned so that you could get back in seven or eight months. >> i totally agree. i think that's the only way we can get there. >> i think we got to go faster. >> absolutely. marshall has partnered with auburn university's national center for additive manufacturing excellence to improve the performance of liquid rocket engines, liquid rocket engine serve as the core stage for nasa's space launch system, also managed at marshall. how can we -- how can

advancements in additive manufacturing and liquid rocket engine performance be leveraged by nasa to mitigate artemis mission delays? >> we're doing that all the time. all of those new discoveries we improve as we go. that's the whole point of the development of the space program. >> the president's budget requests proposed funding the space operations account below the level required for full operational maintenance of the international space station and the crew and cargo program, as well as future commercial low earth orbit destinations. what strategies is nasa exploring to ensure operational flexibility within the outlined budget while maintaining its commitment to transitioning from the international space station to commercial low-earth orbit platforms by 2030 and integrating commercial services without interruption? >> are you asking specifically about the end of the

international space station? >> yes, sir. >> okay. that's 2031. we want to keep it going for the next six years. why? because look at all the science that's on it. but we want to replace it with commercial stations so that all the science, the training, all the things that we do in low n earth orbit can be done on a commercial station which statement has a business model that they can make money on a commercial station, bringing business off the face of the earth up to leo. now, we have put some serious incentive money into three commercial companies to build a commercial space station, and that is the intent, by 2031

when we would deorbit the space station that there would be the commercial stations ready to go. >> thank you, mr. administrator. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> yes, sir. gentleman's time has expired. we're down to just a few minutes to go vote, and so if it's okay with you, mr. administrator, we will reconvene as soon as we get through the last vote, okay? >> how many votes do you have, mr. chair? >> seven. >> oh, my. >> but there are too many votes. is that okay? >> yes, sir. >> if you make two-minute votes, you've done a miracle more than i've ever seen. >> well, we're gonna try. and now i've got to run down there in two minutes too. okay. thank you. >> thanks.

author of the new book "the moment." thoughts on the race reckoning that wasn't and how we can all move forward now. bacari, welcome to the program. >> thank you for having me again. this is my second time and looking forward to it. >> good to have you back. can you start by telling us why you wrote the book? >> you know, it's funny. i haddin' a opportunity to interview cicely tyson before she passed away, and i asked her about writing an autobiography when she was over 90 years old, and her response was i was waiting until i had something to say. you know, i wrote this book at this particular time because it was a burning feeling that we had an opportunity as a country to have somewhat of a reckoning or reconstruct even post-covid, post-george floyd, and maybe it was my youthful naivety, i thought we were on the path to

do just that, and we missed that moment. we missed that mark. and i wanted to highlight the reasons why we missed that mark and then actually do something that most books don't do. a lot of books on the issue of race highlight the problems and ltz manifestations of structural or institutional racism, but they don't give the prescriptions on how to get us out of what this country is in. and i try to offer some solutions. not everybody will agree with them, but hopefully we can get people off the sidelines and begin to have constructive conversations on how we can all move forward together. >> you start the book by talking about this photograph that your dad is in. we are showing it to our audience now. tell us about the photo and why it's significant. >> first of all, don't they look -- i mean, those are some bad dudes from that picture. but that's my dad and john lewis. the unique thing about that

picture is also includes sidney portier and harry bellefonte and others. that is a cross section of black intensia, wealth entertainment pop culture. and that picture for me, it's taken after bellefonte and portier bounded out of -- from being arrested of opposingar partide at the south embassy of new york, and they went to rutgers. so it shows in order for us to have progress. in order for us to make strides forward, it takes a cross section of individuals, it takes everybody. and my father and i began to have this conversation as we kick off the book about individuals all pitching in into their efforts in the '50s, '60s and '70s, and now he doesn't necessarily see that now. one of the statements that my father made which has jumped out to many readers of the book, and it's an interesting statement because i pushed back on it, and it stems from this picture. but my father believes that as a country, we're back in 1954. and for me when i put that in

the book, i did not think it would be such a startling moment for a reader. however, many readers have said that, you know, for them having someone like my father who's gone through so much and seen so much in this country say that this country is back in 1954 was a sobering reality and a sobering check on kind of the struggles that we're in. i disagree with my father on that notion, not objectively or not staisticly because there are statistics such as, you know, black homeownership today is the same as it was in the 1960s. there are some metrics whereby he is absolutely correct. but, you know, i cannot say that jimmy lee jackson and emmett till and delano middleton and all those heros and heroins what lincoln said gave the full measure of devotion or actually laid down on jail cells, ki not say their lives were in vain, and so my

somewhat conclusion is that we've made a great deal of in this country. we still have so far and still yet a ways to go. >> when you talk about the progress, what are some of the factors in why or why not it hasn't progressed? >> well, for many people -- well, particularly for black folk in this country, the price of progress is extremely high. we don't have -- you don't have political success or political progress in this country without black blood that flows through the streets. and i know some of your viewers are going to be, like, what are a you talking about? well, look, you don't get the 1964, '65 voting rights act without the edmund pettus bridge. the bridge being shown on news showed white folk what happened in the south. it showed them being bludgeon, showed dogs. you don't have the fair housing act in 1968 without the assassination of dr. king. you don't even begin to have a

conversation about criminal justice reform until you have george floyd with the knee on his neck for nine minutes, crying out for his mother on video during covid. and i think so for me one of the more crystal clear examples is in south carolina. we don't even take down the confederate flag without nine being murdered in a church, including my friend. so you ask about progress. the cost for progress for black folk in this country is extremely high. and one of my jobs as -- i believe as an active participant in this participatory democracy to drive down the cost of change. the blood types that we have to change for progress is something i want to be able to drive down one day. >> we are talking with bacari sellers, the new book of "the moment, the thoughts on the race reckons that wasn't and how we can move forward now." if you have a question or comment for him, you can start calling in. our lines are regional, that's eastern and central, 202-748- 8000, and if you're in the

mountain pacific, 202-748-8001. when you were walking on this book, what were you looking at in terms of research or who were you talking with? >> so, look, i will tell you that one of the more fascinating people i talked to, and i wished that he had an opportunity to speak to your last guest, that would be a fascinating conversation, but the reverend dr. william barber. he is someone who talks about bringing this country together through the lens of economics. his argument is one that i find to be extremely valid, but he says that if you pitch a message of quality healthcare and first-class education and lifting individuals out of poverty and to the white people in appalachia in west virginia, you'll find out how much you have in common with black folk in mississippi, and maybe we can find a nexus and come together. so he was a very, very, very interesting person to talk to. in my chapter on black men and the untapped power of black men, i talk to my good friend antwon seawright who is one of

the inside-the-beltway kind of d.c. people. and we were talking about it's generational. and he's actually younger than i. we were talking about how the reason you're seeing slippage in black men is because of decades long just lack of attention to the needs and hearing the issues and attempting to solve problems for this particular demographic which is the second highest demographic in terms of voter turnout for democrats. and so those two individuals were amazing. i talked to my brother who was in the ministry about the black church and ha has become of the black church. garland gilchrist is somebody i spoke to about covid. one of the states that has done extremely well in battling covid under the leadership of gretchen whitmer has been michigan, and garland is the lieutenant governor. his story was so unique along the lines that he actually lost over 20 people due to covid. and we troo to go in and unpack that. and so we have some unique

voices in this book. it's a combination of these interviews, it's a combination of memoir. when i bring on the legacy of my father and snick and learning those lessons, growing up to people like julian bond and judy richardson, et cetera, tying in with these interviews and then kind of prescribing a message to go forward. >> you mentioned reverend barber. he is somebody that cspan knows well. he has 25 videos in the cspan video library, so in addition to bacari's new book, you can go there to hear more from him. we'll go to callers. we'll start with richard in brentwood, maryland. richard, hello. >> good morning, mr. sellers. congratulations on your new book. i once had a semi-chance encounter with you once up on east fletch highway with you on the phone. and i didn't interrupt your phone conversation to ask you, do you ever think you'll run

for politics -- i mean, political office again? and i always felt that you should have been a part of obama's administration because of your political strategy, your analysis and then your strategy to offering to really support that analysis, and i thought mr. obama was lacking a word that you used once to describe him. i used it as well before i heard you use it was tepid. and i thought that you could help him overcome his tepidness to become a more effective president. and did you cover him in the book? i'd like to know that in terms of what -- with all the expectations we had many things fell short. and thank you to your answers to the first two or three questions that were very informative, eloquent, and it just states that you had that strategy that he should have had as a political strategist over valerie jarrett. nothing personal. she was kind of green as a blade of grass, and you could

have been that oomph that he needed to get back the house in '14, but he just resolved to the fact that he wasn't going to fight to get the house back. and i really felt that you could have helped him do that. in short, i'm a fan of your work. congratulations. and hopefully i'll see you strolling down h street again, and we can pick up the conversation. be well. >> oh, man. thank you so much. next time you see me on the phone, and i'm strolling, please tap me on my shoulder or whatever, and let's have that conversation. i try to be warm and welcoming when i'm on the street. please don't ever hesitate to interrupt me just to say hello. you never know what people are going through. and sometimes in this business, it sometimes gets overwhelming. and so your kind words can be something that lifts up a spirit, and so i look forward to seeing you. in terms of my political future or ambition, i -- you know, everyday that goes by people ask me in south carolina and around the country are you ever

going to run for anything again? i served in the legislature in south carolina for a decade. i was the youngest black official and youngest legislator in the country. i was elected when i was 21. people ask me if i would run for the sixth congressional district in south carolina which is currently occupied by jim clyburn when he retires. and today i want to tell you the answer is yes. however, each day that goes by, you know, i'd lose a little bit of that interest. and, you know, for me it's -- this is a question i pose to all your viewers, how many times do you intentionally go to a job where you work with people you know you will dislike? you know, i have no burning desire to and work with matt gaetz, marjorie taylor greene. that is something i will have to pray about. in terms of barack obama, i did get offered a job with the obama administration back in 2008 in the united states department of agriculture when i was still a very young ledge

with legislator. i wanted to be able to -- i did not want to necessarily tie my political future to another man, another person. i wanted to be able to chart my own. i do think he could've done something very different. i often times state that i would rather be compared to julian than barack obama. he is somebody who i speak to regularly and somebody i adore but julian is somebody who came from an organizing background. we had a different understanding on how to meet people where they were and implement policy to move forward. i think the obama administration, as you look back on it throughout history, will be looked upon for kindly day by day. it is kind of like the affordable care act and how that is grown in popularity that supplementation. how consequential he was as a

president. did we want more? of course. we want more out of our leaders often. it is very difficult to be working with somebody like mitch mcconnell who says their entire goal is not to move the country forward, to make your one term president. that makes it pretty difficult. >> we will go to tony in florida. i, too. >> good morning. i have lived here less than 50 years but i have been in the united states from the 50s. i am really distressed because there seems to be people, including your idol julian bond and president who keeps reaching back into the past selectively to keep us feeling angry to control us and we can never move forward. i know what it was like in 1958. do you? have you heard about it?

i know and i think it is a disgrace that black people are being used every four years, every two years because of the congressional election. the wind is up and i used to call a black button. they are coming to get us. 1619 but can't 1865. they cannot remember 1919. they cannot remember 1954. stop it. you are not doing anybody any good. spoke about people like you. my grandfather. >> just stop it, please. i am really tired of it. >> that is an interesting opinion and i actually talk about individuals like yourself. i think the latitude of was written to people like you. dr. king actually had a lot of

thoughts about simply ignoring or selectively forgetting about or not remembering. you asked me a question about do i remember x year or did i hear about it. i would share with you the fact that february 8th, 1968, my father was shot along with 28 others by south carolina state troopers on the campus of south carolina state college. three men were killed. law enforcement actually went to trial. they were all found not guilty. they arrested my father because he was. my father actually got incarcerated. he was found guilty of rioting. he became the first and only right and history of this country. my family, you have a father with a felony, you know how difficult it can be to make ends meet. myself, per se, my brother and

just ancestor grew up because of injustice. my father still had that scar initialed from where he was shot. do i just read about it. i know. i live with everything day. i talked to history every single day. >> i think that's the problem for individuals who want to forget about our history. i talk about it in the moment that's missed. the history that you want us to forget or the black that you don't want to push, which i think is a silly statement in itself. manifest itself. let's look at covid. i grew up in denmark, south carolina. i grew up in a food tester. we don't have access to fresh fruits and vegetables. we lost our house for a little because we ask refused to expand medicaid. manifestation of that institutional structural

racism. we don't have access to clean water because our pipes are rusted and destroyed. they put a chemical in the water which proves to be unsuitable and make the water less audible. when you take all of these factors, lacks of access and you end up with more diseases like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, when you don't have access to healthcare, when you are not drinking clean water in you overlay it with the pandemic, it should be no surprise that black people are dying at higher rates. i am not highlighting a pain for the sake of highlighting pain. i am not highlighting a flight were illuminating structural racism just for. when i am saying is we missed a moment to deal with some of the underlying causes of manifestations. while you want to forget that and you don't want to acknowledge 1619 or 1968, if you don't want to acknowledge

the contributions of julian bond, that is on you. i am going to be focused on trying to remedy these issues that we've had that we have never dealt with so that my son and daughter, who you may hear in the background eating breakfast or watching cartoons, they are five-year-old twins, can have a better tomorrow. we may disagree on that and as you to be, i would echo back to you, stop that. >> we will go to ruby in ohio. hi, really. >> hi! >> hey, ruby! >> i just wanted to say i enjoy all of your commentary whether it is on c-span or otherwise. i wanted to ask is the book going to be on audio and also, could you point out to us which one of the men is the father in the picture. and have the most beautiful

day. >> my father is the tallest one with the opera. he looks very similar to me. he is tall and thin. he is the tallest one you will see in the picture. the book is. you can get anywhere books are sold. it came out last tuesday on amazon. yes, it is on audio. i don't know what on c-span you dove into this. not only is it tough on your throat because you are reading so much, it's almost like you forget how to read. it is a weird thing because you are reading words that usually. saying them out loud, you stumble over words and phrases. you miss words as you are trying to speak. i encourage, i hope everybody goes out and gets it. in any fashion, shape, form from local booksellers or.

>> i am going to ask you, miss ruby, to keep me in your prayers. >> bakari, how long did it take you to do the audio recording for your book? >> took me three days and then i had a half of day of pickups. this book took me two full days. i was in the studio for a total of 16 hours but you take breaks. it was a hefty -- the book is only 200 pages. i can imagine people reading 400 500 page books. i do not know how that is done. >> we will go to pat in pensacola, florida. hi, pat. >> yes, how are you today? >> doing well, thanks. >> yeah, i have a comment. first off, to me, he is nothing but another. let me just say that as a black spokesman, will he address the

tones in the black amenity? community? why doesn't he address the 70% of abortions young like women have ever year? when are you going to quit making excuses, have fathers in the homes, support your own children, get off government assistance? these young black guys need to be mean, move on lives, and quit blaming for everything in our lives. >> bakari, do you have a response. >> first, thank you for calling in. all of your colors are so present when they start. >> first of all, i am not a black spokesperson. people get in trouble when they speak for all african- americans. only people who have the audacity to believe their own

devices. second, i do not know if you heard me earlier or if you hear it in the background, i am actually in my home right now. i am in my home with sadie sellers, a five-year-old in stokely sellers, who is a five- year-old. i am in my home in my number one job. one of the things that i like to do, you talk about a generation of fatherless children, i think you have to acknowledge or ask why is that the case? i think you have to acknowledge how we had a criminal justice system when we were going through the early 90s and we had this war on drugs. it took a lot of black fathers out of their home for decades upon decades upon decades. just as we had epidemic in the 1980s and 90s, it was treated with criminal penalties but right now, we are going through an opioid epidemic. you can determine why that is

the case but you have to ask yourself about fatherless homes and why? you bring up points about abortions and those type things. in a young generation of black men who need to step up. you do have a young generation of yet black men who move forward. one of the most amazing things that you articulated, pat, was that we got the civil rights act in the 60s. you said it! african-americans have only been full citizens in this country since the mid-1960s, right? that is difficult to catch up with when you have a 300 years of slavery, another hundred years of jim crow and state stain oppression. yeah. we got some catching up to do

and whether or not you want to be a part of the solution or not, i'm going to work extremely hard to do it so that my children can overcome people like you. >> bakari, something that you talked about in your book is building wealth and that ability to get ahead. california is one of the states that is looked at restorations as a way of rectifying that. do you agree that reparations are a solution? >> i am eight opponent but my question, if you ask me a yes or no question, the answer is yes. if i am able to respond deeper, i will say what does that look like because i am somebody who does not believe -- i would like to believe in political practicality and i do not believe that i am a walkout to my mailbox one day and get $180,000 check or whatever it may be. i do not think that that is a reality. structurally, what can we do when we have seen the biden administration, even the obama administration at a certain

point do things like try to make payments to black farmers, for example. for the years and decades of discrimination they have gone through. i think for african-american students, allowing them to go to state-supported institutions for free. i think that something along those lines creatively would have to be something that is looked at but right now, i would argue that we are actually being regressive and we are taking away a lot of the programs right before our eyes and it is becoming a difficult experience to try to move forward when we are trying to preserve what we have. >> we will go to lawrence in st. paul, minnesota. hi, lawrence! >> i will start by saying i appreciated your comment about people that are organizers that keep together the moment. i think that is really important. i want to go down the path of

concern for me and i apologize -- i shouldn't say i apologize but the guy that talked earlier about family raised a good point in the wrong manner. the urban league issues and reports each year on the state of black america. that report never includes the importance of family and the issue of the lack of fathers in families. i do not want to put you behind a response but i do think that needs to be an emphasis throughout black america to get our act together. as we can build like you are doing, we are just doing the right thing. i'm going to hang up and listen. i appreciate what you are expressing. >> thank you for calling from st. paul. i am actually minnesota a great deal. i actually love the community

and love how you guys come together to overcome from st. paul to minneapolis. thank you for that. it is a good question. your point is not wrong and i was attempting to articulate that to pat from florida. we understand that there are a lot of children that grow up in single family homes. we have to ask ourselves the question of why first and then after we ask the why, we have to begin to do things like make sure -- sadie is talking to me in the background. we have to make sure that we do everything that we can to make sure that these kids do not grow up alone. while we are saying this and while we are having these discussions, something else that we must you that for me, in particular, my father was somebody who did this as well. we have to stand in the gap. that is what we call it in the

black church in the south. we have to be there for those young people who do not have fathers. we have to make sure as a community, we are standing up and breaking the cycle. right now, we have generational trauma and we have fatherless homes that have become. we have to make sure that we break that by giving good examples, showing good examples, participating in schools. being there for these young people, out of school. there's so much that we can do individually. we lose track of that because of our daily task. we have to do more of them. make sure they are participating in high schools, middle schools, elementary schools but not just for their kids but being there for the kids who may not be as fortunate as the ones we are raising in our individual homes. >> chuck in syracuse, new york. >> it is unfortunate that. i believe he is a homeowner, he

is on washington journal, written books, he is engaging in what i call a politics of perpetual victimhood. he mentioned which are in democratic run cities and he's talking about people like dr. ben carson or himself that are successful. the reason is, just two months ago, one sentence out of their poll says the democrat parties wide lead over republicans and plaque black americans party preferences is shown by 20 points over the past three years during the biden administration. instead of talking about grievances, how can you talk about despite your father's difficult these, you are successful. you are standing up there in front of us but you are telling other people that it's not going to happen. stop with the victimhood stuff and start with the persevering stuff. >> it is kind of hard having conversations with people who really do not want to hear truth, right? i am not playing victim. i am talking about giving a

sobering reality of where we are. when i talk about growing up in a food desert, there is nothing democratically run about south carolina. right? >> one of the talking points that my friends on the right try to use all the time is that these big blue cities that were you have all of this poverty. one of the things that we see and talks about this is it's not quite accurate. the poverty that we are talking about where you have access to care, your hospitals are shutting down, that is mississippi. that is alabama. that is georgette. that is south carolina. right? that is louisiana. that is oklahoma. were we talking about this level of poverty? >> i was raised in denmark, south carolina. we have had the same series of leaders for the past three decades. your talking points are wrong, first. no, we are not talking about blue cities, we are talking about the poverty that is there. i am not dealing with anything

in the past. what i am saying is that the past has to be reckoned with because it is manifesting itself through these systems of injustice. whether or not you want to believe it or not, i would dare ask you in syracuse or pat from florida why are black women three times more likely to die during child were birth then white women? answer the question. fundamentally you cannot. you failed to acknowledge that these proprietary exist. while you continue to turn a blind eye, i'm to make sure that black folk in this country do not have to try to continue to survive. i wanted to get to a point where we can thrive. that is my number one focus on this. that is why in this book, i don't even just talk about -- i don't just talk about the past. i talk about where we can go in the future and how we can get there. >> bakari, where some of the biggest racial disparities that we are seeing today? >> some of the biggest racial disparities we are seeing today is access to quality care,

access to first-class education. many times when you look at the public school systems in south carolina or throughout the country, dare i say, is they are funded on a three-legged stool. your federal government funds call your state taxes, local property tax. for example, when i was a legislature, one of the things that i realized is that i could not recruit industry because my schools were bad. right? my schools were bad because i could not recruit industry. it was somewhat of a double edge sword. i think if you look at those two factors in particular, lack of access to quality care. look at mississippi and how many counties don't have ob/gyn's or hospitals or anything. south carolina is the same way. that lack of access to care and then you have these schools which are violently miss educating our children. it is a recipe to keep people

in the social economic situation that they are in. >> we will go to michael in north carolina. >> good morning. thank you for your guest today. i believe that we are in the reconstruction. the first one when was murdered. the third when i think is now. what are your thoughts on that, sir? >> i do not disagree with you. i think that we are in -- actually, that is one of the directions i wrote the book area did you hit the nail on the head. i think we had an opportunity to make more progress than we did in i think that period of growth is over. i think that period of growth -- i think that we are in that dark period.

we are in that dark period where you see the erosion of our rights. you see many of the policies that we are so used to having being repealed and those policies that we fought for. the voting rights act of 1964- 65 has been gutted. i think we are in that nadir. the only hope i have is that only one it is the darkest, he can see the stars. i take hope in seeing the stars. >> we will go to ron in orford, new hampshire. hi, ron. >> ron, are you there? >> can you hear me? >> there you go. >> hi, thank you for taking my call. i think one of the biggest drivers today of racism is hollywood. the way that black people are per trade in television and film, particularly film. it used to be much more blatant. now it is a little more subtle, a little more insidious. for example, a black person is

more likely to deliver bad news to a protagonist. if they show a room full of people, the black people are in the back of the room or the margins of the frame. how do we fix that? how do we address racism in hollywood? is it enough to callout the film makers for what they are doing or do we need to do more? >> first of all, that is a brilliant question. that is a keen observation and i think that you have a lot of lack studios and filmmakers that are attempting to tackle that. one of the things that i would say is that black hollywood has to have its own reckoning and they have to get those opportunities. i speak to a lot of lack actors and they will simply not take on those roles and do those things. you do have programs like abbott elementary, for example which has been an amazing and amazing series that got signed on more time. you have to appreciate the fact that we have given the

opportunity and you can have some success. i think individuals in hollywood, just like in other places of corporate america, have to diversify area i believe there is great value and diversity. then you will be able to see that reflected on the screen. >> we will go to denise in holden, maine. hi, denise! >> hi! first of all, there is been a lot of history where black people have been ruined and that has been in the past. i grew up outside of, which is one of the two bases during the 50s and 60s. >> my high school is very integrated. what happened was as those integrations happened, we became more blended. i have a racially blended

family now. . racism, integrated, i have seen. as a society and as we blend together, that is starting to erode. i remember being young and my grandmother saying that that word and her and me going up to our -- educating our older relatives. that is no longer acceptable. being my family as racially integrated, we all get along. the in-laws, cousins, everybody. christmas eve dinner is a blend of blacks, puerto ricans,

whites, asian. i think as this country continues to grow, we will become more racially integrated and this should fall away. when i hear all the time that it's so bad, it's so bad. in certain areas of the country like in new jersey, connecticut, other places where we are all integrated. we live the same experience. >> bakari, do you have a response? >> i think there is a certain level of confusion. it is something i dove into in my book. for me, i'm not dealing with the manifestations of racism or somebody calls you. i get that on social media enough. and i really don't care about

that. i am not talking about that. i'm talking about the manifestations of racism that find ourselves in systems in this country. systemic issues that we are still dealing with. i do believe that we've made a lot of progress and i am thankful for people like you. we may not vote alike, we may not necessarily agree on all the issues but you and i being able to have these conversations, right? i applaud that. i really do. i think that we also need to realize that no longer are people wearing sheets with their eyes cut out and burning crosses in front of my yard. instead, they are able to talk about the great replacement theory in a news slot on fox. would you are able to have those conversations that are rooted, we have to be willing to call that out. i think that that is one of the things that i am trying to do is make sure that we can

unravel these decades that we have had of racism and the way that it is manifesting itself in these systems. that is first. second, i would also push back and say simply this. i remember in june of 2015 when i got a phone call that my good friend was killed in a church, right? he was murdered with eight other people. this did not happen in 1950. this did not happen in 1940. this happened in 2015. i remember when he was shot in the neck during bible study in debate spent of mother emmanuel church. the reason why he was shot was because of the color of his skin. i know buffalo where another young person had more hate in

their heart then will connor and lester max. hope you don't forget about the fact that racial violence still exists in this country and we have to be willing to have a conversation about it. >> who needs to be involved in that conversation? who should be involved? we just talk with somebody who says she's trying to educate and help people. we may not align politically but that is not the conversation that we have to have. she needs to be with me at the table for many others. there is room at the table for everyone. our elected officials, certain. this country will not change until evangelicals change or want it to change. i think that we need to be able to take the message that we are hearing and i hope takes the

message of. i think we all have to be there. those people with like minds and good hearts. this is not a red or blue conversation. this is a conversation about how to move this country forward. >> we will go to timothy and mississippi. >> my name is timothy. i am from mississippi. >> i was calling in because i want to know how you feel about. do you think we deserve money? through the jim crow era, through the movement, when we were denied libraries and had to pay taxes to a library that we couldn't go to. i would be willing to think

about provision. >> >> it just reminded me of the fact that governor reeves, i believe we are still in the month of april, we are. governor reeves has declared in mississippi that this is confederate memorial month. confederate history month. people like to talk about the progress that we have made and we have made some but here we are in mississippi. they are celebrating confederate memorial month. people like to talk about this like i'm talking about something that happened ever so long ago or faraway in the past. i am reminded that not only. literally, my mother desegregated schools. i listened to this moment from

mississippi and he is talking about not being able to go to libraries, not having the same public accommodations talking about something that happened a century plus ago. this is still a generation of individuals who are still alive today, contributing to society today. this is still a generation of fighters who are the reason who showed as i stand upon. for people to come on here and act like i am talking about something that was so far long ago in the past, or misrepresentation. i agree with the premise of reparations. $50,000 check in the mail. need to figure out ways in which we can ensure that there are race specific solutions for race specific problems. >> we will go to james in ohio, hi, james! >> about a couple things i want

to say. the last man called about reparations. not a problem for america. you could do every black person in family with the million dollars and not spend 1 billion on a regular basis of other countries. it is about giving something to black people,.. >> i think something that is going on right now. talking about white supremacist. i had an uncle who was killed and beaten unrecognizable to death. i had two cousins in their 20s that were killed in 1966. both in alabama. just those couple things, let me say this. i am getting away from it. the last 24 years the republican party, the concerted effort to get black people to stop bleeding and religion and

not to vote for the lesser of two evils. when we have those two options, as long as 94% of all printed media and tv and radio is owned by conservatives. they control the narrative and that as been an effort they are making. as long as we start believing in religion in ourselves, we will never get the truth. it is like they used to say the truth that you hear will never be the truth that you believe as long as you don't go back and find out who is telling the truth. that is the problem. the truth has been given you by somebody that is wrong. that is it. >> you brought up two things. i will cover both of those in the book. i talk about the silos that i had in the media today where

you can have these thoughts and opinions and then they are just cycled and reinforced. he gave the example of the great replacement theory that tucker articulated. i need to define it because i think a few people have called with this feeling but white supremacy is when equality feel like oppression. i am not asking for black folk to be treated any differently. i am asking for lack folk to be treated equally. if that feels like oppression to you, then you probably are the problem and we need to figure out how we can fix that for you. the black church, i would say that i do not necessarily blame it on the deal. i think that the black church has become relatively, and this is a hard over generalization but over relatively stale. i think there's an entire generation of young people who do not find a young home in the black church or feel welcomed and that particular institution. i am episcopalian. they still call me back in

saint phillips. when somebody dies, i have to go be an accolade in the church. my grandfather was a baptist minister. the backbone of our communities and foundation of background changed institutions of prosperity and gospel teaching and moved away from building community. those are some of the issues that we deal with in the book and i think, in the world words of will ferrell, it is provocative, it gets the people going. >> we will g.o.a.t. to james and in collins, mississippi. hi, james. >> good morning, how are you doing? >> i am good, sir. >> let me say this quick. i believe that this is the women's time to step up and speak out. i believe that if the women -- the majority of what the women do -- i am going to vote

because of what the women say and how they predicted because we talk about black men expanding and all of that. this is the women's time to stand up. i would hope that you would have the women come to go to washington, to go to and have them speak out and talk to women about how important it is they vote. i see it. this is women's time! if the women does not stand up and vote for what they believe and now, it is 2024. it is over for anybody being suppressed. before awake but they don't want to tell you that. another thing they said about black folks on this and that. when it was time for the people

to come out of slavery, they turn around and took those people back in office. not only that, the only other ones that was pertained to be in the jim crow era. hello? >> we got you, james. >> he actually articulated a good point that saw this in kansas, ohio, arizona -- in arizona, how they passed the 1800 abortion law. and abortion law from the 1800s is probably a clear way to say. you saw kansas and abortion on the ballot and you saw how resounding that was and the

turnout. you saw the same thing in ohio. women, when it comes to reproductive rights, are going to play a huge role. there is a role for mantiply and hoping to protect a woman's right to make decisions about our own body but particularly for those of us who believe there is a will for us to play as well. >> we will go to willie in katy, texas. hi, lily! >> good morning. i am 60 years old. i was born in new york people think like you and continue to force black people -- flow with the focus and enough folks have

said it. opportunity now than ever before. i think individually, to keep moving forward is the key. i do not know if you've seen any of these videos but learning to be victims and are lashing out at anyone who they think might have in some sort of way. two things really quickly. you categorize as noncitizens prior to the 1960s which, to me, is ridiculous and. but these people will believe you based on your emotional content and that is what is going on. the next one -- the next question is you said lack women are more likely to die than white women. if you could, please, give me the medical reason, not the

fact that. give me the medical reason why you think black women are dying more so than whites and i will hang up, thank you. >> first of all, i do not think that black women are dying at higher rates than black women during childbirth, that is actually a fact. that is an objective fact. i would urge you to google it. many people, across the social economic line whether or not it is my family or whether or not it is serena williams or somebody on medicaid, many black women struggle with that and unfortunately, they become a statistic. usually and what we found throughout the medical research and i would urge you before you come out in public or push back on the statistic and be wrong, urge you to look at the medical researches because of the fact

that there is this bias in our healthcare delivery system that black women in particular are more tolerant of pain. when there is an issue that is raised, they are less likely to be believed by their providers. we had to yell and scream. we pulled back the covers and there was nothing but blood. i had to be our number one advocate at that time. before you go out and say that this is something that is a thought or not true, dare i say research it. second thing, you push back on my articulation that we were not full citizens before the civil rights act in voting rights act. i do not understand. how can you be a full citizen when you cannot vote? how can you be a full citizen when you cannot participate in

democracy? how can you be a full citizen when you cannot have the same accommodations? how can you be a full citizen when you have to sit in a separate restaurant? how can you be a full citizen when you have to drink from a different water fountain? how can you be a full citizen when you cannot go to the same schools and get the same opportunities? i do not know -- i would encourage you to not just read my book, the moment, but i would encourage you to flat-out read. also, you mentioned you went to school in south carolina and this and that. we made a great deal of progress. i am trying to unravel the system so we could make more. the number one cause and this is an objective statistic that i would encourage you to read, the number one cause of black children or children in south carolina underperforming is hunger, right? hunger. that is the number one cause of children underperforming schools in south carolina. my pushback would be that why is that the case? let's unravel the structure so we can make sure we are actually providing kids in the global economy, an opportunity

to succeed. >> we have time for one more call. we will go to gabriel -- gabrielle, sorry, in north carolina. this is very interesting. thank you for all your work that you do on this. i am an independent. i have always been in the center on a lot of the issues. left was very extreme, right goes very extreme. when i look back at the things i was taught early on, i want to focus on one thing that i think you have within a framework of what you are alluding to is that how do we message better? how do we reach out to people to help them understand a lot of the truth that there but at the same time, how do we build up an effective strategy for communicating the things that we really need to communicate? when i look at fox news, i am not saying we should replicate

that but what i am saying is they are very intentional about how they make a monster, how they push a message and then they are effective in reaching of people that become energized and i just feel the nature that quite often, protect perpetuates is much more willing to -- if you are reasonable on the left and they are extreme on the right, you end up settling somewhere in between. that cuts on the wrong side. i did not even learn -- this is the last thing i will say. i do not even learn about reconstruction. all the failures that happened right after that until i went to law school and i was taught by constitutional attorney that was super pro right. i knew it was the real deal. it was not a liberal who was teaching me but what i am saying is it is getting to what thomas paine said. thomas paine said at that particular time was not the

most worrisome and troublesome. raised with the conciliatory person that turns a blind eye to the injustice. i am just wondering how do we message that right and put your finger on exactly what you would do to change the narrative. >> one of the things i always want to do -- whatever discussion i am having is trying to tell the truth. often times, that truth is left out of the conversations but i always like coming onto this particular show because you get these opinions from around the country. while there are some who probably never want to be in a room with me, i am hardened by the caller from new york who talked about her family and talked about how she wants us to be in a different place in the future. all we have to do is keep persevering. you are right about messaging. the messaging to our own community and the communities around. there is some places where i

might have the right message but i'm not the right messenger. i will challenge those individuals who are watching, let, or reading my book that if there is a message you can take back to your own community, sometimes that is best. we will see if we can change the world together. >> bakari sellers, author of the moment. how we can all move forward. thank you so much for your time this morning and talking with us. >> thank you. i am sorry for sadie and oakley joining us throughout. >> we were happy to see them. their first c-span appearance. >> usa today takes a look at the current standing among -- president biden among black voters in swing states recently. they cite this at a recent story saying mr. biden support from black voters is experiencing significant attrition in particular, much of it coming from black men. he trails presumptive gop nominee and former presidential donald trump. in a handful of battleground states including georgia.

an april survey taken by morning consol shows him eight points down in the swing state that he beat mr. trump in four years ago. georgia voters say the economy is the top concern in the residential election and 29% say the economy is on the right track. wall street journal took a recent poll and this is what they found when it comes particularly to black voters. they sat across the seven states that they surveyed, mr. biden is winning 68% of black voters as well as 48% of hispanic voters in 50% of voters under the age of 30 on the two candidate ballot. those support levels are almost identical to the backing biden had in the journal's february poll of the national voter pool and are far weaker than what he won in 2020. nationwide, mr. biden, that year, carried nine point 91% of voters, 63% of hispanic voters, 61% of voters under the age of 30. a large pull of the electorate

that year. that is some of the data but as far as being a black voter and about your presidential choice when it comes to 2024, you can call us on the line that best represents you. if you are a democrat, and if you are an independent. if you want to text us your thoughts on this, and as always, you can post on our social media sites. that is facebook.com/cspan. that where the vice president took to atlanta, this is from the atlanta journal- constitution. their headline. kamala harris kicks off economic tour with the atlanta visit. the subhead reading the visit by the vice president comes as both indicate that she and president joe biden have work to do to shore up support amongst black georgians as they run for a second term.

part of that visit yesterday which you can see on our website. the vice president talking about the administrations benefits that they fought for for black voters in economic matters and also talked about, in some ways, they are fighting against his termination. here is part of the statement from yesterday. >> the work that we have been doing over the last three years has been focused on all of these areas and also understanding the context in which we exist. the long-standing disparities. understanding that in spite of those who in certain parts of our country want to attack, we understand you cannot truly invest in the strength of our nation if you do not pay attention to diversity equity and inclusion. we are, for example, paying attention to the fact that in order for any family or

individual to have any economic well-being much less the opportunity to create wealth, we need to take into account the history. for example, the ability of black folks in america to own a home. let's go far back enough we could go even further. let's go far back enough to remember the g.i. bill. that was a promise by our nation to invest in what we call the greatest generation who fought in that war. there was a policy that said let as reward them for fighting for our nation and all that we hold sacred. give access to ownership. the reality, however of a well- intentioned plan is that it is not well-intentioned in the way it was implement it for a lot of people. black veterans did not receive an equal measure. population people had public

policy that was federal investment on lifting able up. certain folks and black folks in particular did not receive the benefit. now, look at the disparity that is created even by that. >> by abortion. you can see on the website and the app. the atlanta journal- constitution highlighting the visit to georgia is her 12 since she took off as show that will have work to do to shore up their support among lack americans amid a tight rematch against donald trump. this adding that the vice president told the crowd mostly black business leaders and elected officials. in south carolina, democrats line against black voters. good morning, shirley. >> my choice for 2024 is joe biden. if i live to see may 19th, i

will be 90 years old. i have never voted for a republican and i definitely will not vote for donald trump. i do not see how anybody can vote for donald trump and all this garbage he's got going on. i am keeping it real. >> why give president biden another term. why do you think he deserves it. he is for the poor and less fortunate. the people that cannot help themselves. donald trump is not for nobody but the rich people and i do not see how anybody could vote for him. he is better than others garbage he's got going on and i am keeping it real because what i really want to say, you were cutting me off. >> we will go on to howard in indiana. democrats line, good morning, howard. >> good morning. i fully support joe biden.

i think he has been an outstanding president. i think we will lose sight of the challenge that was before the biden administration coming out of a poorly managed ones in 100 year pandemic. accelerating vaccination programs that put us well ahead. outpacing all of our. i am not sure of the paul's letter indicating supports for trump are accurate. i am not sure what the polls are telling us but i certainly support joe biden. phil is on the line in brooklyn. go ahead. >> good morning. black people keep voting for democrats. we call our democratic mayor adams trying to these

immigrants into a brand-new apartment building that was vacant for 10 years because the people are built. any other week or month, have something about the palestinians? what is going on with them over there? >> we are sticking to the topic at hand, if that is the case, what choices do you have for 2024? >> the color clicked off the call. let's hear from eric. >> i just want to tell all black people listening to your station this morning that joe biden, under joe biden administration, we have more black judges than ever before.

we have a black supreme court judge. we have a black vice president. he has promoted black more than any other president ever in the united states of america. for the polls to say what they are saying, i do not know who they are talking to. we have representation now than we ever before under the biden demonstration. i will be voting for joe. >> that was donald trump. he spoke in south carolina earlier this year in an event known as the black conservative federation gala. here is some of his comments from earlier this year ? >> joe biden and the radical left have abandoned everything black americans care about. they have really let you down. they have thrown black americans overboard and it's

been not a pretty thing to watch. you take a look at some of these inner cities but i, and the republican party, will fight for the black community like you never had anybody fight for you before. you will never be taken for granted. four years later, they come and say hello or two years, what office they are talking about but they come back and do nothing. they do absolutely nothing until it is election time and then they come in and they seek your vote. the future we want is one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all and that is what we are doing and that is what we are going to >> again, there is more there from earlier this year when it comes to former president trump speaking at that event. for black voters, you can call and let us know.

202-748-1000. democrats, 202-748-8000, independence, 202-748-8000 two. independent line, this is johnny in washington, d.c. go ahead and >> good morning, america. i am third-party. i do not believe in the democratic party. i do not believe in the revoking party republican party. in both parties pockets. i do not like the foreign policy of the joe biden administration. he is sending money over to all these. this is our taxpaying money. all the money that the tax --

american taxpayers are going overseas. they should be going into america. i totally disagree. >> i would like to reconvene the sst committee. thank you for indulging us while we had to cast votes, mr. administrator. thank you. it was good to see you on the floor too. i hope that brought back good memories. >> okay. we are going to resume our five minutes of questioning by our members. let's see the gentleman from new york, your first for five minutes of questioning. >> i think the chair and the ranking member for this important hearing today. take you to administrator nelson for the work you do to ensure the success of the world's preeminent civil space agency and your awesome leadership that you provide.

in new york's capital region, i am deeply proud of the critical research and tech development being done at world-class economic and petitions such as the technical institute. i particularly looking at the r&d that relies on funding from the biological and physical science division within nasa science mission directorate. the funding provides novel opportunities to better understand the impact of the space environment on those life and physical sciences. discoveries made on the international space station with funding have advanced our understanding of quantum mechanics and helped to facilitate the advancement of semiconductor-based electronics. the bps has also allowed advances in regenerative medicine, osteoporosis treatments, and neurodegenerative diseases. despite how important this is, the directorate remains severely underfunded and

acknowledged as such in the recent survey. in fiscal year '23, the budget was 84% less than it was in 2000 four. and as a result, the number of investigators in the state of new york has decreased by some 67%, causing significant reductions in training and negatively impacting the local economy. specifically at rensselaer polytechnic institute, they currently fund approximately four pis and over 25 graduate and undergraduate students. just a few years ago, that number was closer to seven pis. bps will no longer be sustainable as the number of grants awarded is reduced, and will be forced to change research directions threatening nasa's exploration goals. administrator nelson, how is nelson attempting to be responsive from the biological

and physical sciences community in this constrained budget environment? >> congressman, when john glenn first flew, we weren't sure what was going to happen to the physical body. there was even concern that -- with the eyeballs stay in the socket? we had flown a chimpanzee prior. you just think, when you don't know what is going to be the physical biological reaction and how far we now have advanced where we are realistically giving ready to go back to the moon in order to prepare to go to mars. and so the function of the amount of grants that would go to a university such as the very eminent one you just

mentioned in your district is a function of the amount of the budget that you give us. just in sciences and this fiscal year '24, because of the constraints that are upon you and '24 and '25 as a result of the compromise reached to be able to avoid the default of the full faith and credit of the united states government. for example, just in science, there is a billion-dollar cut in '24. a similar cut and '25. once you get to '26 and don't have the constriction that you have on the budget, i wish that you would. because the area that you have specified our areas that we have to know what is going to

happen in order to send humans all the way to mars. the moon is four days away. mars is seven to eight months away. unless we develop the new technologies, such as propulsion of nuclear thermal, nuclear electric propulsion that could get us there faster. if we go conventionally, six, seven, eight months, then we are going to have to stay on the surface a very long time until the planets realign to get back in seven or eight months. so these are all a part of the challenges, but they are also exciting problems to solve. and we will keep those grants going to universities, because that is a main source of the research that we do at nasa.

>> thank you, sir. mr. chair, i have another question i was going to ask, but i'm out of time, so i will follow that to the committee. through this budget process, congress will recognize the crucial progress of this research to help bps and nasa fully realize its mission. with that, i yield back. >> i would like to know recognize the gentleman from ohio. >> thank you, mr. chairman. it's good to see you again, administrator. it was good to see you in ohio just a couple weeks ago. we appreciate you coming up to cleveland and spending the afternoon with us. having you there was very actual. we had some great conversations, including about the importance of the research center, which is located right into our district. nasa space technology directorate funds a lot of significant priorities for nasa, many of which the research center is involved in.

however, funding has been relatively stagnant over the last five years. the fiscal year '25 budget proposes ramping up funding in large part to support a nuclear power system that could operate on the moon. administrator nelson, can you please talk about the importance of fission surface power and why we need to invest in it now and are just further down the line? and can you please address the role within the project? >> yes, congressman. it was great seeing you in cleveland. before i forget, for congressman tonko, our commander going to the moon, read wiseman on artemis 2, he is a graduate of rensselaer. so congressman, we've got to have more power on the moon. we go to mars, we've got to have more power.

particularly as you get further away from the sun you can't rely on all solar power. and so fission surface power is going to be a necessary element. and we are going to start this with the moon. this is part of the reason we go back to the moon in order to go to mars. the '25 request is 113 million. you want me to get into nuclear electric and nuclear thermal as well, would you want to keep it to fission surface power? >> i'd like to keep it to fission, since that is what's up there. >> well, i certainly respectfully request that you all grant our '25 request of 113 million. >> okay. we will take a look at it.

i understand. and i get it. you already acknowledged that it's been a tough year, the last thing we want to do is cut down anyone. we have to make sure we are being responsible and efficient. i'm with you 1000%. i thank you for your earlier answer. nasa glenn research center leaves the communication services project which leverages commercial capabilities to provide next- generation relay for nasa satellites and to ensure that there is no data gap as the older satellites continue to age. can you speak to the performance of the work performed at glenn, and we have your commitment that you will possibly provide your resources to the center that needs to protect this project quickly? >> you can't fly in deep space unless you can communicate. our deep space communication system ran into a problem because we needed to communicate with all of those science instruments, including

the james webb space telescope, bringing back all of that data from deep in space, and low and behold, we had to have the capability of communicating to artemis one and the test flight of the rocket. and we didn't have all the bandwidth that we needed. so we need to improve that. and this is especially essential as we are going further and further out into space. right now, in low earth orbit, we got enough communications. we can handle that. we need to update its, modernize it, at cetera. but deep space is a different thing. >> if there's anything we can do to work with you, giving the resources or getting education or familiarizing how we can get it more efficient, i would really up initiated. what makes it really glad to hear is your acknowledgment of

how important nasa glenn is. not only to our region, but also to the world and the capabilities that we have there. i want to thank you for your time. it's really a pleasure to work with all of you on your. anything we can do in the future to work together, to make sure we continue to evolve and progress in the right way, you have a friend in need. i yield back. >> mr. chairman, if i may, another example of the deep space communications that we just re-established with voyager i, which is outside of our solar system them approaching interstellar space, and it came back to life. and low and behold, we got it. and where it is located, so far away, at the speed of light, the transmission takes 22 hours. and we just re-established that.

>> mr. administrator, what caused that to come back? >> again, these wizards, they do all kinds of things. and this is a spacecraft. a very old spacecraft. voyager 1, i think it was launched back in the 70s. so it is still perking. >> thank you. that is great information. the gentleman from florida, mr. frost. five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and administrator nelson. with the goals of returning americans to the moon, the artemis program, private partners in all 50 states, and over two dozen in florida's 10 congressional district. artemis is a significant contributor to nasa's four points have in billion-dollar economic impact on central florida alone, and has partnered with the university of central florida on several research projects to support them.

this is where my colleague, congressman posey and i, are leading a letter to the subcommittee calling for additional artemis funding to overcome delays and technical complications. mr. administrator, with all the challenges us to complex and cutting-edge program, what can nasa do to minimize delays in the mission cadence? >> first of all, we cannot congressman like you that help us make an additional request. understand that we are not going to launch until it is ready. and that is because safety is our first. when we put humans on an explosive bomb called a rocket, we are going to do everything possible to make sure it is as safe as possible, realizing that everything is cutting the edge of the envelope that we do.

but especially when humans are in the loop, we are going to make it that much more safe. so we are on schedule next year to have four astronauts circled the moon and check out the artemis spacecraft. we are under contract with spacex for september of '26. to have a lander, of which we would go into lunar orbit, and they would transfer in and go down to the surface for 6 days. obviously, if that lander is not ready, we are not going to fly at that time. but that is the schedule, and that's with the contract calls for. >> the most recent success in the partnership of nasa and the private space industry was a soft landing on the moon's

south pole as part of the commercial lunar payload services program. how does the work of the commercial lunar payload services program complement the work of the artemis program? >> they are scouts for us. just like sending scouts out into the wilderness. so for example, one of them that is going on in two of the machines at the end of the year is going to start digging in the south pole to see if there is water underneath the surface. if there's water, edits and enough abundance, then we have rocket. >> overall, what can we as members of congress do to support the nationwide economic and scientific impact of nasa's work especially when it comes to the artemis program? any day now, we know china will be sending and will do the first mission to bring back things from the far side of the moon. we know funding these programs is in the best interest of our

national security and all the work that we do. but what can we as members of congress do? >> there's the old saying, the president proposes and the congress the poses. you are in it. you are our partner. you make it possible for authorizing us to do this stuff , and then appropriating the means by which to do it. >> and lastly, can you briefly describe some of the scientific highlight the commercial missions in terms of the commercial lunar payload services program? >> oh, yes, sir. or example, this last one, it was an intuitive machine. it caught its leg on the rock as it was coming down, and it tipped over. the fact that it tipped over, it didn't have its antenna

pointing in the right direction to receive. it was still faint enough that we could get enough to know that it was a life. there were six nasa experiments on board. now, this is an incredible story of the chairman of the full committee, hal rogers, in his district as a university. they have big dishes that can support the commercial program. but in this case, the clips -- it wasn't able to communicate. we didn't have enough power from their commercial communications. but morgan state was uniquely positioned that it could also communicate with our government deep space communications that had the power in order to

receive that weak signal. and therefore, most of the objectives of the mission were successful with a connection there made through morgan state. that is an example of a daring do that suddenly -- the nasa scientist and the commercial community and the university were able to figure out in real time. >> thank you so much for your time, mr. administrator, and i yield back. >> i like to recognize the gentleman from new york. >> thank you, mr. chairman. great to see you again. i'm sure being on capitol hill and testifying on these committees is one of your favorite things to do. we have a hometown hero that is in orbit right now on the international space station. dr. jeanette apps is a -- is

beloved by her hometown of syracuse, and really is inspired a whole generation of young kids in school and she is the talk of the town and the toast of the town. she's only been up there now for almost two months. can you give us some insight into the importance of her work and her mission while she is up and face? >> jeanette is an example of the extraordinary ability of our astronauts, their capability. in her case, she had to wait a long time to fly. and yet, she is there on orbit for 6 months performing great science. and maintenance of the international space station. sometimes, our astronauts have

great disappointment. the best example that i can think of is slayton. he was one of the original seven . john glenn, he was one of them. and they discovered a heart murmur. and deke was not qualified to fly. and yet, deke then took the role as the chief of the astronaut office to all of those years of gemini and apollo. >> for dr. epps, if i may, can you talk about how her mission is helping us get back to the moon specifically? >> well, everything that we do on low earth orbit is in preparation for us to have the understanding and the preparation so that we can go further. and that is what we are starting to do, to go back to

the moon. not just for the sake of going to the moon, because we did that a half-century ago, but we are going back to the moon to learn in order to go to mars, just like we are doing things in low earth orbit on the international space station to go further. in addition, we are doing serious science on board the international space station. earlier in the committee hearing , i had testified about things going on on cancer research with the drug he true to and with stem cell research. all of that is going on. and although i don't know jeanette's specific science project that she is working on today, she will be working on a lot of that science. >> we look forward to having her back, but not to use dune. she's got a lot of work to do while she's there.

i like to spend the last little bit of our time talking about the draco project and the cooperation between nasa and darpa with nuclear energy and propulsion. are we still on track for a 2026 test lunch? how is the draco project progressing? >> draco is primarily a darpa project. we are working with them on nuclear thermal. it is a joint nasa darpa project. yes, it is my understanding that it is on schedule. it is testing out nuclear thermal propulsion. that's not the only nuclear propulsion. there's also nuclear electric propulsion, and i hope to get this cranked up and going. why? because we need to go faster to

mars. chemical propulsion will get us there in seven or eight months. nuclear thermal, nuclear electric can get us there faster. the reason that is important, if we can go fast, we don't have to stay on the surface on the first time, second time -- a year or two until the planets realign. we would have a chance of getting back so that we go for a short visit, test out what we needed to with all the symptoms, the equipment, the spacecraft, the landers, et cetera, and get back. i think nuclear thermal and nuclear electric is the propulsion of the future. >> great. if we get nuclear propulsion, sign me up. i'd be happy to go. >> i want to say also conga congressman, the end of the story of deke slayton is that he ended up fine.

he did an experimental medical procedure and it worked on the heart murmur. and he was able to fly. years later. and that was a good thing. just think of all the time he had to wait. >> that's a very good thing. >> sure was. >> the gentleman from california. five minutes. >> thank you, administrator nelson, for your testimony today. as you know, the international space station is authorized to operate through at least 2030. after which time, nasa plans to use commercially developed stations to support low orbit research and development. we are nearly halfway through 2024, to ensure the commercial stations are ready and certified for masses use. i particularly concerned about the risk of losing access to low earth orbit or research.

there so many important discoveries and innovations that have been developed thanks to nasa providing this form to do it in space. could you just share with the community what the risk might be, the gap in sustaining how low earth orbit r&d activity, should commercial space stations not be ready, and how might a gap prepare our preparedness and development of low earth orbit ecosystem in general? >> congressman, we don't intend there to be a gap for the reasons that you just articulated. it is so important that we keep this continued presence of being able to not only research on fantastic things like pharmaceutical discoveries that benefit us here on the face of the earth, but also in preparation for going further to the moon and to mars. for example, we would be

training our astronauts in 0g and low earth orbit on a space station before we would send them to the moon or to mars. and so those are just a couple of examples of why it's important. and we do not intend for there to be a gap. and thus, it is all the more reason that, as you all give us direction in the authorization bills and as you partner with your appropriations committees in giving us the financial means and which to do this that we continue to have the development of this commercial space station that will take the place of when we want to deorbit the space station,

because it's getting old. and we want to deorbit it and 2031. >> thank you for that. i appreciate your optimism and thank you. i appreciate your optimism. >> i know recognize miss lee for 5 minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. last year, i had the pleasure of meeting with deputy administrator pam melroy, and i was really taken by her passion for expanding opportunities in space x duration and stem. when i chose to -- i envisioned an opportunity to work with my colleagues to expand the roma stem education and workforce beyond those that have traditionally had access to them. i hope the work we do and the funding we are advocating for here today will make dreams of so many students from underserved areas. i think of trey von martin, before he

passed, wanted to be an astronaut. i think and hope that the funding the advocate for here will make some of those dreams become a reality around our nation. while nasa has no physical infrastructure in my district, pennsylvania's 12th, the businesses in my district are crucial to what the government does. i district won over 58 million in contracts across 19 businesses and universities, including small and women owned businesses. proposed budget cuts from nasa, 22% or more below the fiscal year of '23 enacted level is an attack on the brilliant minds in our innovative, industrious business owners who fuel american leadership in space exploration and technological development. nasa has extensive partnerships in western pennsylvania. partnerships it relies on to carry out its various missions and mandates. this current congress continue to find new, innovative ways to shortchange or take away from

the american people, especially the amazing scientists, students, and workers in my district are helping to you will nasa with technological developments that will vastly improve the human condition here on earth. i will continue to ensure that my region thrives around the space economy. administrator nelson, i congratulate nasa for the two community little play load missions that have flown this year. these missions have fostered national pride in our missions nations program and considerable momentum for the future. i know there are more missions on the way this year and next, including missions that promise truly groundbreaking science and asked duration opportunities. some of these will also improve renewable energy generation, such as space-based solar power. can you please discuss some of these missions as well as outlining your commitment to lunar discovery and expiration programs? >> i'm from western pennsylvania, pittsburgh.

it's a company that is astro robotic. >> i know the one. >> they are going to have a mission later this year with a huge instrument on it. called viper. and it is scheduled, upon landing, to drill down in the south pole underneath -- maybe go down that far and to see if there is water in abundance. we know that there is ice, because we have seen that in the crevices of rocks that are in constant shadow. so if there is water, then there's rocket you will. hydrogen and oxygen. the eclipse missions that are going, as i had described

earlier, are like scouts. they go out and they scout the wilderness for the humans who get there. and that is exactly what we are doing. we will have the south pole of the moon characterized by a lot of these commercial lending missions. usually with nasa instruments. we will have it characterized much more in depth. at the outset of your remarks, you mentioned something about your admiration of pam melroy. i want you to know that it is very mutual admiration. pam melroy is a real deal. she is the third woman in the air force to be a test pilot, and she is the second woman in nasa to be a space shuttle commander. and so your recognition of talent is certainly right on the mark.

>> thank you. i appreciate that. i have two other questions. i am happy to yield back. thank you. >> thank you for your valuable testimony and for the members for their question. the record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and written questions from members, and this hearing is adjourned. >> thank you.

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>> of next, testimony on worldwide security threats with cia director william burns, director of national intelligence admiral haynes,