absolutely. it is worth a visit for sure. yeah. no, all our dinosaurs are based. really. the latest science we have, we have done things with dinosaur said no other museum. we have for instance does big predatory dinosaur that most of us called allosaurus and assaults and all these things and we have mounted it's sitting because one of our researchers discovered the insect nest of its eggs we know there were its eggs because that tiny ourselves bones so we we did something that nobody has ever done one of those predator dinosaurs actually down like a big bird and other things like that so so in in some way our exhibits are more dynamic than anything else out there. benton tastic thank you so much, hans. unfortunately, that is all that we have time for tonight. we had some really great questions that spurred a

good evening. please welcome president and ceo of the national constitution center, jeffrey rosen, and editor in chief of the atlantic. jeffrey goldberg. hello, friends. what a thrill to welcome you. to the national constitution center. on presidents day. it has been a wonderful. presidents day. full students and learners, presidential impersonators.

and that's all thanks to our friends at citizens, travelers who not only sponsored presidents but have a wonderful civics initiative, inspire their employees to learn about the constitution. and we're so grateful for their sponsorship sponsorship. friends, i also want acknowledge some very special guests in the front row. they're all sitting together. they are pamela, lauren, coyle, rosen and, judge michael luttig. and i must thank judge alluding for having had the vision to bring the first amendment tablet that is shimmery behind us from washington, d.c., to independence mall in philadelphia. it sanctifies this sacred space. and let's just all filled vibe of independence hall and the first amendment and how lucky we

are to be here. and thank you, judge ludwig, for making that possible. i'm so excited that my friend editor, the great jeffrey goldberg, has come to to talk about the book. you know him one of the great journalists of our generation. he he's read it. and i can't wait to hear what he and to have our conversation. please join me in welcoming jeffrey goldberg. thanks, jeff. all right. i really do feel like we're under the protection of the first amendment tonight. you and judge, you drove this down in your pickup truck, one, one, one slab at a time. it's really quite it's really quite amazing. thank you, jeff. thanks, everyone being here. you all this is the subject of our talk tonight. i guarantee you that in 58 minutes you will be happier than

were when you came in here. or at least you'll have self-knowledge that you didn't have before. you lost a path for improvement because this book is actually it's it's not about the pursuit of happiness as we as a society have come to understand the pursuit of happiness. and you talk about in the book, obviously, that at some point in the sixties, perhaps sixties and seventies, the mid-decade, the pursuit of happiness became the pursuit of whatever you happy or the do your own thing or you know, you do kind of idea. but what your meant what you set out to do and what i think you did successfully was explain what the founders when they used the term pursuit of happiness and i and it's really an extraordinary book it is it's a rare it's a and i'll stop being to him in a minute. i'm sorry, but it's the rare book that you can call

simultaneously a work of original history and, a self-help book. and i don't say that in kind a, you know, in a in a slight offhand way about some of the trifling self-help books that we see. you actually in reading this, you will see how great people led their lives. and you will be stimulated to think about the way you lead your own life. which brings me to this to the foundation, which i'd like you to tell why you wound up writing this book. it wasn't necessarily on your dance card before the pandemic, but you are in the pandemic and you were having thoughts. tell us how this came to be. i'm delighted to share that this project eliminated the it originated during covid with benjamin franklin and the --. so that was the connection. a friend and i had been at

odyssey israel, our local synagogue in d.c. and the rabbi there recommended project called matzah or character improvement, where every night you're supposed to make a list of the 13 virtues that were on the list and put an x mark where you fell. and there are virtues like temperance, prudence, humility and so forth, which is the hardest one to follow. and you add a friend and i try this. this is frank four and it was very depressing because there were so many x marks and we gave it up after a while during covid. how many x marks on average there were 13. there are seven days of the week. there were like at that point there were seven next to temperance and it was a tough time actually and it's a difficult system to try when you're in an turbulent time. what i learned during covid was that this didn't originate with a hasidic rabbi, but with benjamin franklin and in in his autobiography, he was the one who came up with this 13 virtues project in his effort to achieve moral perfection in his

twenties. and he had made a list of the virtues he tried the x marks. he too found it depressing after a while, but was glad that he tried it. the covid revelation was the franklin chose as a motto for his project, a book by cicero i never heard of called the tusk in disputation, and it said, without virtue, happiness cannot be. so i thought. i haven't heard of this cicero book. interesting. a few weeks later, i was at uva, as it happens at the boar's head in, and then saw on the wall a list of 12 virtues that thomas jefferson had drafted for his daughters. and they were almost identical to franklin's. and jefferson, too, had passage from cicero. the tuscan disputation that he would send to anyone who asked when he was old, what the meaning of happiness was. and it said, without virtue, happiness cannot be. he who is tranquil in mind, who's neither unduly despondent, or indeed date indulges in wanton, exalted ocean. he is the happy man of whom we are in christ, the wise man.

so i thought, okay, i've got to this cicero, because i've never read it. what else to read? and then i came across a reading list that jefferson would send anyone who asked how to be an educated person and it's an arduous you're supposed to get up at dawn and start reading history and politics and then have lunch and read the moral philosophy and then dinner. you're allowed shakespeare and then to bed. it's a kind second reading schedule. and under the section called natural religion or ethics, i found at the top cicero's tuscola disputation and then ten works of moral philosophy that i never read. and they included stoic and other greek and roman philosophers like epictetus and marcus aurelius and seneca, but also enlightenment like locke. and francis hutcheson, lord keynes, most of whom did not read. so what? so struck me during covid is that i'd never encountered any of these books i've had wonderful liberal arts education, great teachers, great

university studying, political philosophy, law, english, but never the moral philosophy. and i remember you talk about the greed is good decade. i was yearning for this in college. i wanted some guidance about how to live a life that was an alternative to the and hedonism of pop culture, which i, of course, was indulging in, but felt so unsatisfied by. it and religious dogma and doctrine was not adequate for me. i was studying puritan and was working through the hairsplitting of the doctrine of predestination and and and did not find a meaningful guide. how to live a good life. so what to read and what i didn't realize because it was just hiding in plain sight, is that it was all of this great moral. so i read it during covid. i talk about the unusual practice i developed, which was to get up early. like jefferson watched the sunrise read from the wisdom literature. i found myself summing up the wisdom sonnet form and and then

would proceed through marvelous sonnets that you write to help you. i mean, i was kind of writing one day and i you're writing a sonnet today read through these things. look, i know this extraordinarily weird and i never only 14 lines i mean i'd say well, there's there's a there's a history. my beautiful and wonderful and brilliant wife, lauren is a poet. and before this project started, i saw lauren kind of channeling poetry in real, just having it come out. it was so extraordinary. i said i could never do that. and she said, yes, you why don't you try it? and i'd started writing poetry, you know, a few months, a little bit before project started and, and got the habit of it. it was just a practice and during covid a friend of mine barry adelstein has had a youtube video about how to write a shakespeare sonnet and that inspired me to try, to sum this up in, the shakespearean sonnet

form. and what so amazing is not the sonnets, but the fact that so many people who have been read this literature are to do the same thing. and phillis wheatley, the great black poet hamilton mercy, otis warren, the brilliant anti-federalists, and john quincy adams would wake up at the house, read cicero in the original or write sonnets, which are excellent, and then take a walk along the potomac and watch the sunrise. so it's just something in the air about this beautiful, harmonious literature that kind of craves to be summed in distilled form. so i have a whole lot of sonnets and i finished the year of reading the moral wisdom, and it just transformed my life the way i think about how to be a person and how to be a good citizen. this is a small question that obviously opens to a larger subject. we'll talk about. but you're describing your morning routine.

how do you keep away from your phone? that is the crucial question, the pursuit of happiness. it's the simple. and every morning still, it's a it's a question. will i browse or will i read? and i kept away with it just by developing a habit i developed a rule i'm not allowed to browse in the morning. i have to read and every morning i have to read a non and it's a temptation and sometimes i fall and fail and you know, browse the atlantic or whatever. but generally i don't generally i don't that's allowed by our standards. but this is actually my big takeaway. and i become an avenger for the radical act of self-assertion in deep reading and. it requires habits. this is jefferson and franklin. and adams had and it's so inspiring they're old. they fell short of so many of their virtues, which all of which we'll talk about. but they're reading, learning until the end.

and once you have a habit or a practice of reading, then you have to do it. and i still can't believe. the sonnets and i can't believe i wrote this book in a year, but it was all because i just sense dedicated time aside in the morning to read, write to talk a little bit about the organization of the book, different virtues as different founders and as just to to give you a framework of of how organize this but and then take us to i mean sort of dealer's choice they're all interesting i want to know which combination virtue founder stoic source actually moved you the most as a person and then also as an academic. well, there were 12 virtues that use jefferson had 12, franklin had 13. i left off chastity. you off chastity because franklin had a hard with

chastity. he really did. he struggled and he had his illegitimate son who turned against him and, became a tory and and then his grandson went on to torture federalist as leading republican journalist. but i just chose 12 and then i more or less mixed and matched i wanted to cover the main founders as well as it was urgently important to cover phillis wheatley, mercy, otis warren, as well as lesser known founders like james wilson and george mason. so for example, for mason and wilson, they were both under and by their by their avarice, their lack of industry. so they went in the frugality section because they didn't exercise that and industry was for his reading list. but you ask who i'm most resonate with and it was john quincy adams i was so you were

on the train and you texted john quincy adams is extraordinary. and i felt the same thing as i was reading him, that he just built the virtuous life more inspiringly than any the others. i spent some time on that because. i, i know. and i can, you know, he writes at a pretty high level of enthusiasm, everything and everything that you do you do it at a high level of enthusiasm, which is a virtue, i think an earnest enthusiasm but in your john quincy adams sections, i was feeling your admiration for him. and i'm wondering, you know, how we always talk about even post hbo miniseries. we talk how john adams, the father, is is always thought of a little bit lesser or than thomas jefferson or george washington. and adams understood that in life. i almost feel like john quincy adams like yet another level that there a member of the or a

of the founding generation who was really an person who we think about and talk about enough. but why don't you just give like a couple of minutes on how quint john quincy adams for you personified, you know a person really devoted to trying to better himself and through bettering himself, finding the meaning of happiness, but also bringing enlightenment. others absolutely he summed up by this letter he wrote in his twenties and he's just been appointed to and unanimously confirmed to the supreme court. he turns down the appointment because he wants to stay as minister to russia. and he's writing in his diary, which is one of the greatest diaries ever written by an american. i'm 27 years old. my life has been dissipated in indolence, and i have accomplished nothing that and he's just beating himself up for not having accomplished enough at phase and it it's because of

his parents overwhelming pressure he got from john and abigail to be perfect and abigail's always nagging him and haranguing. not only you write more, you know, you never call, or your handwriting should be better, but use your powers of reason to master your unreasonable passions. there is avarice and ambition lurking everywhere. you've got to achieve self perfection so you can serve others. and he internalizes constantly and he's always beating himself up for minor failures of temper. i mean, he keeps these incredible diaries. you know, it's i'm spending too much time at the theater i'm growing corpulent. i'm i'm getting stout drinking too much. but he literally i'm becoming corpulent by to the theater too much write to himself to to that he's like not even enjoy to the theater without fearing corpulent. so well, i mean he thought he was drinking, you know, too much, but that always he stops.

he's so self-aware and he in the in these very vivid raw passages is describing and recording his feelings, it's spiritual diary. he has a first phase where he's the boylston professor of order oratory at harvard reading cicero and reading the literature and quoting from it and taking as his motto cicero's motto the tuscan skill disputation is the same book that inspired jefferson in the same book that locke and, burleigh markey quote their inspiration, actually his motto from cicero was, i plant trees for another century. in other words, the fruits of my labors won't come to fruition. now it's for the future. it's always delayed gratification and he becomes president. and of course his term ends.

begins with a defeat by andrew jackson the popular vote. so he views jackson as a demagogue but he insists on this program of national republican internal improvements and envisions a national university and lighthouse iss in the sky that become the smithsonian institution. but he's repudiated his party and he's devastated and feels that the world has ended. and then he's been writing these letters to his son about how to be perfect, letters to a christian, constantly exhorting. george washington adams to live up to ideals. and the pressure's too much. george washington becomes, an alcoholic and kills himself and is devastated. he's lost the presidency he's lost his son. he prays for the consolation from and reading the stoics allows him to determine to be more useful and serve his country in some ways to make some use of the gifts he's been given. and then he becomes the greatest abolitionist of his time. and he denounces the gag rule in congress, and he proposes, as an

anti-slavery amendment to the constitution. and this is before the death of the whig party. is is fully abolitionist, inspires frederick douglass to acclaim him as. the greatest of the american presidents and dies on the floor of congress after denouncing the war with mexico and murmurs i am composed, which is a passage from cicero, suggesting finally he's achieved not contentment. some think he said am content but it was almost certainly i am composed because it's the self-mastery and self composure that defines the virtuous pursuit of happiness. i mean, there's so much more stopping, he or he argued, the amistad case for four days, you know a triumph for the enslaved africans and at the end but it's so interesting you know a friend of mine just read the book and also to john quincy adams. and so maybe i, you know, i'll beat up on myself a little bit less or my my own efforts to to

make some use of my self. i'll be a little more forgiving on that. it's reassuring to see how hard he drove himself. of course, he went far too. but it's so beautiful what he achieved. the sonnets are really good too, and wrote this anti-slavery sonnet and he even transcribe it because he said in shorthand. and if it were better, i would you know. maybe transcribe it. but it's and we too shall find. how fierce is the prize? roll on. roll, roll. freedom will remain. it's just gorgeous. so here's my favorite found. one of the reasons he may be your favorite goes to the contradiction or an essential of the entire project of lifting up the founders john quincy adams was, as you say, the great abolitionist. his time, thomas jefferson, among others, slaveholder and many, many people he enslaved he knew what he was doing.

he create it a fantasy world in his mind that said that this was not as bad as it seemed, but nevertheless, you're holding up the founders and their virtues here. but you're also dealing with the fact that many of these men held slaves. how do you balance this? how do you how do you how do you grade them on their adherence, these high values character when they're doing what they were doing, especially the virginians. jefferson even more of a shocking racist than i imagine and the level of hypocrisy is knowing hypocrisy knowing. hypocrisy, because that's the most striking thing. as you said, they knew about their hypocrisy and. jefferson listened in the virginia legislature as patrick henry's delivered his me liberty or give me death speech and then

wrote patrick. henry said, is it not amazing that myself, who believe that slavery violates, the natural rights of the declaration, my cell phone slaves i will not justify, i will not attempt to. it's simple avarice or greed. i won't do with the inconvenience of living without them. you bring up one of the most interesting of patrick henry because the level of self-knowledge is complete, which means that he is actually living he actually undergoing the process of self-examination, which we don't ascribe to politicians very often then or now. and there's almost something admirable about his own recognition of his own terrible in a kind of way. it absolutely is. and he was more self-aware than jefferson who accused others of avarice. he jefferson when we say south carolina and georgia are refusing to let us. and the international slave trade early because their avarice more imported enslaved people.

whereas we in virginia don't need that jefferson just had remarkable capacity for self rationalization and was always insisting that slavery should end at some in the distant future. and you asked how you grade them the different grades. jefferson was unusually hypocritical. george washington free his own enslaved population in his lifetime. unlike jefferson, only freed his own children. by sally, keeping his promise to her and have the rest of his separated and sold george with jefferson's law tutor totally lived his ideals and freed all of his enslaved population and denounced slavery. franklin changed that but would soon so striking first is reading the moral philosophy help me understand that they saw this conflict in moral terms. they directly viewed it as a battle between avarice and virtue, and some lived up to it and others didn't.

does it make you feel better about them that they at least knew they were doing a terrible thing or could almost say that if they had deluded themselves, maybe they would have had some kind of breakthrough that would have allowed. i don't know. it's it's a very interesting question. don't know the answer at all. it. it's inspiring to to see how some of them did live their ideals and striking how morally serious they were they talked about their own efforts to be virtuous constantly and they did recognize the hypocrisies when they existed others justified themselves and said as james did you know i may have fallen short in any ways, but at least i was industrious industrious. but what really struck me is that, i mean, that could have been mussolini's slow salute. absolutely. the the trains are absolutely running on time. the what what what's so

striking, though, is that the same moral philosophy inspires, our phillis wheatley and frederick douglass and david walker to denounce the system of slavery and to insist that the founders be called up to their best, the same moral philosophy inspired mercy. otis warren to demand the equal rights of women. so the philosophy itself is deeply inspiring and it is the inheritance of all americans. black, white women and, men we choose and christians. but we're humans. some people. up to it, others don't. it's also sobering. it's so easy to excuse ourselves for our own virtue today not recognizing that we in similar situations might have been just as fallen. let's go all the way back to the beginning. the the the the question.

you were aiming to answer is where does this concept of pursuit of happiness come from? obviously in pre declaration of independence documents the virginia virginia declaration of one it was property of pursuit of happiness. where did pursuit of happiness come into? i mean, obviously, the book does a very good job of tracing the founders and their their reading and but how does it politically move to the fore and? the second part of that question is what they mean. one of the most exciting things about exciting project were electronic word searches. everything is now online and. you just download the documents and search for the phrase pursuit of happiness or pursuing happiness. and i went through started with jefferson's list in his religion section. and nearly all those documents, the ancient and the enlightenment philosophy, contained the phrase the pursuit of happiness. now these are from different

sources. this is not all stoic wisdom. some is either from greece, rome, some of it is from the christian theology. gens like wolitzer and tillotson, who the most popular preachers of their age. and we're trying reconcile christianity with reason. others were from the whig literature cato's letters where that's the source of the blessings of liberty frays as well as quoting tacitus. we have to think as will and speak as we think and contains the phrase the pursuit of happiness. blackstone's commentaries contains it the law book of its time defining. it as the essence of reason and the purpose of law and civic republican sources. like locke on the liberal and machiavelli. so it's just hiding in plain sight. and what is so to me is that people have focused in the past about how this pursuit of

happiness is a substitute for property, it's not at all. why did jefferson leave it out? the all men are in doubt with natural rights to life, liberty and property is in locke's second treatise, which had but the phrase the of happiness is in the essay concerning human understanding, where it talks about the how to be a good person and jefferson uses the pursuit of happiness, not property, because property is an alien natural right. it's a technical thing. but when you form a state of nature and move from the state of nature to civil society, you can alienate or surrender control over certain rights in order to secure the rights you've retained. and you have to alienate control over property because property itself is alien of all the right to pursue happiness, can't be alienated because it's part of the rights of conscience. i can't surrender to the power to tell me what to think because i can't command myself to, as you or i or anyone pleases, the product of my reason.

so jefferson was just being technically precise in leaving property the list, but he wasn't being in ad he's talking about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness because all of the sources that i mentioned talk about, the purposes of government being happiness, that's the first end of government. burleigh markey is the happiness of the people john adams puts in his defenses on government. he gets it from burleigh. james wilson writes it up in this piece called the essay concerning the extent of legislative authority, which i saw the pennsylvania historical society right before. it was so thrilling to see that first sentence. and then i thought, am i going to get this transcribed? i look and gosh, the quill project put it online. it was just so cool so i could go through, follow what we footnotes and see that had that document by his side. and of course he had george mason's virginia declaration of rights, which whose preamble sounds an awful declaration and talks about the pursuit of

happiness. so it's so important. all this is this is not some academic thesis i'm putting forward this. it's it's absolutely lousy with the idea that every single moral source on which the founders relied from these different traditions all use phrase and they all have you ask, what does it mean? they have similar conception of it. there's a remarkable unanimity of of what it doesn't mean for thing, but what it means. and these are not men who necessarily got along ideologically. they didn't get along at all. ideologically, the division between and jefferson on national power versus states rights and strict construction liberal construction defined political and constitutional battles for the next 200 years. that's my next book, which i'm really psyched about, but they all read the same books and jefferson williams at college of william and mary hamilton and king's college others through

private tutors. it's what they were raised on. their mothers told them to listen to this advice. and whether you people dispute how christian the founders they not embrace the classical virtues faith hope and charity. it was classical virtues of temperance, prudence, courage and because that's what they got, the moral philosophy and the christian thinkers cited cicero as. well, so i was going to ask you, because to the extent that you've gotten any pushback at which i'm sure you deal with with equanimity and stoicism, you've the pushback you've gotten is that are scanning the christian influence over, their philosophy and the creation of the founding documents in favor of the stoics. and in that, you know, the though they were some of the founders were theists not traditional christians they were all more profoundly influenced

by christian thought than by stoical thought. yes, that pushback is so interesting because it's a remarkable effort to exaggerate and misrepresent america as a christian nation. and it's not supported by the sources because the point is that all of the sources, including the christian ones, also cicero, the point isn't that the founders were stoics, it's that the reasonable christians and that's what they themselves who are rejecting dogma. could you just just just pause on that because i don't want people to think that. you mean there's unreasonable in in current language of the day reasonable. christianity is a term of art in the enlightenment for people like the the liberal christian preachers who are the most popular preachers in america like well it's then and tollefson and samuel john for goodness sake it's such a it's a really tendentious effort to misrepresent the core of america's founding as christian. samuel johnson was the major textbook writer who ben franklin assigns at the university of

pennsylvania for their core curriculum, uses the phrase the pursuit of, happiness, many, many. and he gets it from stone. franklin, prince and all of them think that christianity is consistent with reason that reason is virtue just living in accordance with our best interest reasonable christianity then being the synthesis of enlightenment, understanding reason and christian doctrine completely way denying the christian faith, arguing that is completely consistent right but rejecting dogma and ritual. and what jefferson called monkish superstition. these people are very opposed to the authority of the established of established national church. but and what's so striking that the people today who are insisting that was christian at its founding site in alien tradition that comes from augustine they're neo augustinians and they invoke a natural law tradition that

remarkably doesn't appear in this as the founders never cited it. they cited the liberal christian thinkers as well as all the others ones of the stoics, the civic republicans, the blackstone, legal theorists and the whigs. and again, all of these are citing and it's not just stoics. that's a kind of cicero is a synthesizer of greek and roman philosophy. so he sometimes called the stoics, sometimes a skeptic, more technically precise, but he's getting it all from pythagoras who turns out to the core and innovator of all greek and roman moral philosophy, instigates the reason passion distinction that plato then epitomizes is in the metaphor of the charioteer and then the all, you know, like legal schools today of originalism, textualism, the stoics and, the skeptics and and so forth, dispute on matters that are not ultimately important to the consonance. the agreement about the

importance of using our reason moderate and master unreasonable emotions. can i ask you a question about being an author who? has a central thesis challenged? do you find yourself in better place? and this is a serious question. i know that it will cause some laughter, but do you find you are better able to control your emotions when you read a criticism of your own work about, controlling your emotions? no, it's a crucial question because the it is a good test. yes. there was a i mean, are you different after having absorbed the lessons that you're writing about? i really am. that you're there was a critical review in the wall street journal over the weekend that said i wasn't christian enough and the all the really i talked about the pagan influences of the other of the stoics and said that i should have cared about

the christian sources it was it was a review it was very it was very i tried to contextualize it because it didn't actually have those words jeffrey rosen isn't christian enough. so i took it. yeah, i guess you were reading between the lines. yeah, the. it was a classic kind of review where the reviewer is not reviewing the book in question. the reviewer has a point that he wants to make a larger ideological point in the culture and is going to the book to in order to to get to that get to that point. he actually was pretty respectful of the book overall but just says that you misunderstand the crucial role of christianity in the formation of american ideals in american documents. you know, the old would have gotten very happy and outraged and so would the old jeff dunn. i'd just like john adams, like beat myself up and oh, my god, what's my mom going to think? and that sort of thing. but no, the main thing that i was struck by is the documents

for themselves. this is i'm just his quarrel is, not with me. it's with thomas jefferson's reading list. just read the books on jefferson's reading and found that they all contain the phrase the pursuit of happiness and found that they all cited the same ancient sources. so i thought it was revelatory. i've also come to understand that. i mean, i wouldn't have thought that a channeling core moral philosophy of the founding would be controversial, but there is a division just as there is on between the left and the right, among conservative it is between. common, good and virtue. crowd conservatives really take an augustinian approach and think that there's a single revealed truth that people should embrace. and it's the revealed truths of the christian church and and those and classical liberals. and i think i hit a nerve. i want to ask you this large question of shifting topics, a

bit as i'm reading this, i'm listening to you and we're in this place. we're looking at what, we're looking at. we know that our our politicians 250 years ago and it's almost 250 years ago, actually were grapple with great weighty phillis issues and they were grappling even in public in a kind of way with their own frailties and trying to better themselves in public. there's a part of reading this and i'm not trying to discourage anyone from reading it because it will you a better person. but there's a part that you come to and you think, my what we've lost in our discourse, this country where where it's very, very hard. i'm not talking about the most character who doesn't seem particularly self-aware on the national scene.

i'm not even talking about him. i just mean, there's no room or space or time for american leaders to sit and read and walk along the potomac in the early hours of the morning. think about how they going to be good in pursuit of their ultimate happiness would be good, including good others during the day. that is to come so that they can make the country a better place. i mean it's we're in a pretty debased place in our right now. i'm not saying it's necessarily the most it's ever been. 1859 was pretty lousy, but did you have that feeling that i have that boy. imagine if we had leaders who could read cicero understands. cicero, try to make themselves better. following cicero's rules for happiness. absolutely. most inspiring part of the

jefferson adams story is their old, and they thought it was the bloodiest most contested election in american history. that time, the first partizan election, really serious threats violence that the whiskey i mean very very serious times they make up because of abigail who brings them back together and. what do they want to talk about? eastern philosophy and adams is so excited to learn that pythagoras may have traveled and read the hindu vedas with, the masters of the east, and he just the thing he most wants to know is whether joseph priestley, the great utility varian, lived long enough to complete his of the bhagavad gita and jefferson says good news. he lived. he finished. i'll get you a copy from paris and jefferson and adams is so thrilled that he's going to get that book and just so moving to think of how excited john adams was to learn about connection and then how easy this for me

and i can just sit on my and read the book about gita and read those books. and in 1859 so as we were just saying before the show started, terrible, the darkest moment for our country's history. and yet the debates between and haines in 1830, which are a prelude to secession and introduce the south carolina of nullification which they got from jefferson they're quoting shakespeare and banquo. they are trading meaningful illusions and metaphors. the level is high. they were so educated and not all of them to fancy schools. they read it in homes and lincoln read it. he thought the mcguffey reader, which he would just read in his log and frederick douglass, my god, if you want any rebuke every morning i do i actually browse rather than read think of frederick. what was the point where he felt most crushed in his liberty?

it was when his wicked master told, his mistress, not to teach him to read. and he felt the enslavement of my mind was even greater than the enslavement of my body. and he snuck out and pre and paid boys on the streets of baltimore with bread to teach him to read. and then he got this book, the colombian warrior, which is summed up the classical wisdom with little excerpts, and that inspired him to be the greatest abolitionist of all time and books so precious to them. and and we can do it, too. all we need is the discipline to read. it's absolutely extraordinary we can do it too. except it seems in this age to imagine our political leadership being contemplative, you know, because of beating. and it's not just social and it's not just the coming of age, but it's all that. it's those things and many more things. the whole system seems to be built to. work against your virtuous

instincts as. a politician, if you possess them. it of course it does. and in you know, we've just been talking about personal self-discipline. social media is obviously changed. the whole media landscape of public discourse in a way that's the founder's nightmare. we've talked a lot about how madison hoped that a class of journalists he the literati would slowly diffuse reason across the land like a atlantic magazine for the 18th century and people would read the federalist papers and discuss and coffeehouses and just social media the speed of discourse and rage to engage and the fact that you're rewarded for playing your most inflamed and factious base rather than coolly deliberating and reading makes readers in politics difficult to talk to. the other side. so it's very hard. but on a personal level well, i

didn't i've never read this deeply before. this is a very project and literally it just kind of to me in coded uni it's a habit i think it what it is and many of us read when we were kids in school and then you get out of the habit i see some over there and it's just making time which requires rules to franklin. so i think that and i want to say it again, it is a radical act of selfless assertion to read deeply. i'm saying that to kids we talked to at the national center and to all of you it's so empowering and it's not intuitive. you have to kind of set aside a pattern for, but it maybe it can save art it can save us as individuals, whether can save us as a society is a deep question. and, you know, let's talk about the fact that the founders weren't sure that the experiment could work. and when they do, when they said there wasn't a virtue meant en masse are enough people are going to be able to control themselves to make this thing work. well, we have talked in the past about madison and his very

skeptical nature about a very skeptical view of human nature and whether whether passion could ever be controlled long enough or whether self-restraint could ever exercised by large enough people, large enough group of people to actually have a functioning democracy. and i think that the acute challenge right now, i do want to i want to stay on this this question about the because i don't to get into a mode of overall fantasizing the founders i find it pretty romantic already so i have to check myself right but the question is it's an impossible question if men and women of, the founders character, intelligence, curiosity, self-awareness were in our politics today in our current system could they have survived and, flourished or

would what we have developed time the things that madison was so worried about a couple of hundred years ago have come to pass. would anybody would, ben franklin, be crushed? would he be making tiktok videos attacking? you know, i don't whoever to be attacking would it would they would that would that that force be crushed out them. yeah they couldn't survive in a system where they're directly accountable and amenable to sanctions and they had to talk past was the structural incentives that's the whole if men were angels point the system is not to imagine that people are perfect or not but to respond the incentives they have and by and separating power and slowing down deliberation and and the constitution itself is. a document that fears direct democracy and wants to prevent our leaders. sydney madison didn't believe that. no president should be in direct

communication with the american people, but that it should go through the congress. absolutely no tweeting presidents don't know. tweeting, don't address them directly. and so the idea of a state of the union address, all the hoopla around that that would have been anathema to him. jefferson reads it, but it's anathema. and the rise of the demagogic president, which begins with andrew jackson, who was not a demagogue. exactly important to get. what's the definition of a demagogue? let's say a ambitious leader who flatters a portion of the people to install himself in permanent power and uses violence to break up the union and incites insurrection. and that was the definition that both hamilton jefferson have. and i did find this amazing letter where jefferson says, in the future, a president's going to lose an election by a few votes cry foul and list the states who voted him and install himself for life.

it's just predicting the future very strongly, if that's the definition they're trying to avoid direct communication between candidates and the people jackson who when push to shove rejects nullification and defends the union liberty and but does insist on direct communication and does a listening tours of the people and. then woodrow wilson, theodore roosevelt insist that the president's a steward of the people for the first time rejecting the madisonian model. but then comes radio and fdr and mass communication makes possible a national demagogue in a way that it wasn't before radio and now this. social media and i talk about these phenomenon phenomena in the in the context of what we're ultimately about which is finding leaders who can exercise selfish and self-knowledge talk

talk about because there's a there's a very interesting discussion in the book about all of this in the context of the social media age. i think people want to hear that, well, there's certainly a social media is the antithesis. the republic of reason, to the degree that it's remember the core definition, virtue is impulse. it's the marshmallow test. it's waiting. if you take marshmallow now, you get one. if you wait 15 minutes, you get the kids who waited, you know, a tremendous success and it's the degree that social media rewards like shares immediate gratification rather than sober second thoughts deliberation and reason. it's the antithesis of our current age. also, social media tends depress and alienate, make kids feel alone, deep reading and face to face interactions are the

opposite. a.i. poses new. it's a whole new area, but it's a challenge reason itself and to truth in way that we're just beginning to understand the inability to distinguish truth and falsehood with a i is as radical a challenge. the enlightenment idea of reason as social media is itself. but there is a faith that with deep reading and deliberation, the truth will emerge. because after all the definition, virtue, the definition of divine, of divine harmony, is living according nature. in order to pursue the truth. and there's some that given time enough for deliberation, the truth will emerge. and that's why the battle today for the liberal idea, which is really the enlightenment idea is

so serious. we're in the constitution center. i might as well ask you about the constitution. two cases in front of the supreme court right. can you give us your your view of which way the well, the first one is the colorado case. i'm curious about the idea that the 14th amendment would allow for donald to be thrown off the ballot and then, of course, the second one, if you want to address it i just think people would be interested. i'd be to know what you think, where we're at, where i'm the only interesting person in this room to talk about the case is judge liptak, who's here in the first row and has written that's our second hour. we he's pleased to check out his is extraordinary illuminating briefs and commentary and we did a great podcast on it where we also presented the other side from josh blackman. i think i can sum up the arguments, but this isn't a podcast not going to do that. we all listen to the argument

and it like they're going to throw it out. so that's all we got right. the constitution and we've talked about this before the constitution and if you had to describe its purpose in a sentence it is we don't want a king here's a system to prevent us having a king is that fair i mean that's a crude version of what the founders aiming for. that's a great i mean, the better version is right outside building we the people of the united states in order to form a more perfect union, better posture. you're sums it up which is that there can be. the power is the people that's the thing that was james brilliant insight and he's so for having been the great apostle of popular sovereignty greater than anyone else the power not in the king or the president or congress or in the states. the power belongs to we, the people and we parcel it out to different institutions of the

federal government and among federal governments and the states. why? in order to secure the blessings of liberty, achieving the purpose is of the declaration which are to protect our equal liberty, we form government by consent. and that is why it's so important in america is to 50 that we think what is basic ideas are so that we can learn them and understand them and see if we them. the declaration we're created equal with natural rights of life and the pursuit of happiness, and that to secure these rights are instituted, deriving just powers from the consent of the government, liberty, equality, natural rights. how do we do that? through the constitu action, we ensure that power is in the people we separate it among the branches. we divided between the federal government and the states. we have an independent judiciary and a rule of law, federalism, separation of powers, the bill of rights and the rule of law.

it's all there. and that's why it's so good to think together and study and together and be inspired by the fact that this is a battle for the american idea. it's an idea and it's an experiment and one work. and did you see that emmerson came up with the idea of the american idea was in the atlantic in the 1850s, and he defined, one of our most prominent staff writers, he was he was a hit. it was a very hasn't much lately, i have to say he he defined it in the as the american idea emancipation. it was it was it was liberty. it was freedom. what kind of freedom. freedom of the mind. where did emerson get it from? the stoics and the bhagavad. and he saw the connection between the geeta and the stoics. better than any american philosopher of the 19th century. although adams had noted the same connection. and he jeff, that's what's so the american idea is the pursuit

of happiness, which is the pursuit of reason. but pursuit, freedom coming back to this and, i want to want to note this as we come to, atlas, i'm going to have you read your sonnet on the back of our guitar, by the way, whether you want to or not. but it's very interesting. and and i'll have to do that in a minute but i want to note this it seems to be we're talking about really one thing. ultimately, when we were driving up from d.c. today as enter the in your pennsylvania there's a sign pennsylvania pursue your happiness kind of made me a little bit made my wife and i'm pretty depressed because it didn't like they were getting the point of what they're pursuing. you know, it sounds like, you know, follow your bliss or. you know, that song, if it makes you happy, it can't be that bad sort of thing. you know, you do you it sounded more of that than what would want the state of pennsylvania to stand for. but we're talking about we're talking about the same thing here. we're talking finding a a citizenry and a leadership that

understands happiness as to drive through the pursuit of virtue, through the pursuit of of of of self-restraint. and i think it comes down to what we were just talking about. everything is built around the idea that we're all going to restrain our worst impulses, our dictatorial impulses. george washington set the standard when he went back the farm cincinnatus. we've come a long way from to to having a presumptive candidate, republican candidate who doesn't want to go back to the farm at all and to cheat his way back into power. that's very, in my humble opinion. and so and so the question is how you as an educator, you're the leader of this institution. how do you and others get this message before it's too late?

by having like this, by convening all of our phenomenal who are here tonight. i'm so moved that the members of our teacher advisory who are teaching this wonderful constitution one on one class are here by you incredible lifelong learners. you know how it is to be a part of this amazing institution and have all of you come and listen to the podcast and join in and be lifelong learners and what we're inspiring people to do is be all of you who just taking the time to educate yourself because you know that it is making the best use of your talents. it is the definition of the pursuit of happiness. we need to have a radical movement for learning and it's exciting about the american and the constitution and the declaration that will inspire people to want to learn more. and you have to be, look, we don't know what will happen with politics of history on small

contingencies, wars begin and empires fall based on the smallest happenstance or a few votes here or a choice there. so no individual can say going to happen with our democracy. and these are very serious times, but we can empower ourselves and create movement. this movement out of curiosity and light and learning about the american idea, which will model exactly what the founders hoped for. and regardless of what happens with our democracy will elevate and inspire ourselves and this is called notes on the bhagavad gita book to self-realization would you read that for everyone? i the guitar neil schon is here and neil is a friend and a member of our board. and a couple of years ago neil said to me he'd read the book about guitar. i read it as a kid and it's meaningful and it just summed up

the core of the wisdom so beautifully for me. so frehley's nation the wise see the eternal in all they have renounced every selfish desire, not once disturbed by for pleasures. call they live free from lust, fear and anger always act without attachment or desire for the fruits of your actions. desire can burn to anger. detachment allows in even minds satisfy factions. reality lies in the eternal, not in the impermanent. we're seeing train. body mind senses, thoughts, internal and unite with the self in all being renounce selfish desire of i mind me enjoy

freedom and immortality so glorious and gandhi sum that up in the phrase renounce and enjoy. that's the core of the wisdom and tried to sum up the core of the wisdom to and if you need any greater evidence that this is not a christian or buddhist or jewish nation. but one founded on the deep connections, the great spiritual and wisdom traditions you see atoms saying that it all can be expressed in the hymn of cleon. he said, my understand ing my faith at this point in my life is expressed in the myth of him, of cleon, love, god, and all his creatures. in all things. it's beautiful and it's so true. the truth, the different people find in different ways and different traditions. but it is summed up in that upon so all i as we close i would like to say in the most humble

way that i to work on sonnets in my spare time but unlike you, i go to chat cheap you to write my sonnets and. i want to read you awesome my my my assignment to chat gpt was and by the way i do recognize that chat gpt could be the end of reality as we know that that that that large learning models could be the end of reality as we as we understand it and it is yet another challenge to our democracy. i also have to say that and this is the challenge of it i can see good in it and i certainly see how mesmerizing it is. so assignment to chat about was write a sonnet about jeffrey love of the us constitution and also of sonnets. dear. and in approximately one second this is what it came up with. and are you ready?

i know i'm not. no, you're not. definitely not in rosen's heart. the remains a cherished love, enduring and profound. it's words like poetry and flowing strains with freedom's melody, its truths resound. scary, right? i'm out of business. in business within its verses liberty is found in every clause. a promise to uphold a beacon for the nation ever bound to justice, rights and virtues. manifold. this is where it gets really interesting, yet his soul, his soul. another takes hold the sonnets with elegance and grace and 14 lines. the story to unfold a timeless art in its own sacred. so let jeffrey his passions hand in hand the constitution's love and sonnets grand. wow that's. thank you, judge. if you do it that's it's it's miraculous and terrifying and it's true you know what's so

impressive about that it incorporated formal rule that i learned from barry edelstein. i didn't in the third verse, there's to be a verso or switch restart with one argument and so have the switch. and it scanned well to the meter was nice. yeah. no. uh, yeah we're in trouble, but you can make yourself more human by reading this book. you learn so much. it is an incredibly lively read and it exposes you in the most enthusiastic and, erudite way possible to the to the thinkers who influenced the thinkers who created our reality today and jeff it's great. it's a great accomplishment and thank you very much for having me here. and for doing this. thank you so much. thank all for coming. thank you. thank you thank you all. hello. and we're going to you're going to sign i'm going to sign books if you'd like them would be so much. so where are you going to sign books? somewhere. somewhere nice. somewhere