host: we are back with washington journal. we are joined by joy-ann reid. she is the author of "medgar and myrlie: medgar evers and the love story that awakened america." she is also a political analyst for msnbc. thank you. guest: great to be here.

host: remind us about medgar evers. guest: medgar evers was the first field secretary for the naacp in mississippi. jordan was doing the same job in georgia. he was doing the same job in mississippi investigating the deaths and lynchings of black people and registering people to vote. host: you said you feel that medgar evers has been given a short shift in america's history. why do you think that happened? guest: if you think about the job he was doing, he was doing the kind of activism that dr. king was doing in alabama and that john lewis was doing in georgia and he is doing it in mississippi which was the most dangerous place to be black in america. the highest number of lynchings, the most violent version of the clan.

and the statewide agency called the sovereignty commission that went into action after brown v. they were under tremendous pressure even from the naacp which did not agree with activism in the streets. they wanted to fight in the courts. the amount of violence that you would face in that state was unprecedented for any civil rights activist. he should get a greater mention. james baldwin said the great civil rights leaders were medgar , martin and malcolm. host: tell me what prompted you to write this book. guest: these leaders could not have done the work they were doing without the support and help of their spouses. their wives were 1950's housewives. they were the literal secretary. mrs. evers was the literal

secretary. she was the person he was bouncing speeches off of. she also had to maintain the household while he is doing the dangerous work he is doing. he is a partner and supporter in his civil rights work and when he died, that is when malcolm and dr. king died, she is the one who had to write his legacy into the history books and that was the job she had to take on. host: before his murder, she was getting those death threats. guest: absolutely. this was dangerous work not just for these men but for these families. the death threats where we were going to kill your wife, your kids. every time she picked up the phone she did not know it was

someone in distress or someone planning to murder her family. host: talk about his service and what happened when he came back. guest: he followed his big brother. he was very close to his older brother charles. charles enlisted. he was on the beaches of normandy on d day. the red ball express which was a segregated transportation core. he was a world war ii hero. he came home in his uniform and was told to go to the back of the bus. he said no, i just fought for my country. he was dragged off the bus. he says he was a different man after that. he immediately stood for his right to vote. he and his brother tried to register to vote in the state of mississippi in a county where there were zero registered voters among african-americans because of the way that mississippi kept black people away from the ballots.

host: we will take your calls. the lines will be regional. the eastern central time zone, it is (202) 748-8000. mountain or specific time zone, (202) 748-8001. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. we are on social media, facebook and x. host: he was assassinated in 1963 right in front of his house. can you tell us what happened and the aftermath? guest: medgar evers' secretary was constantly writing to the kennedy white house for help for the people being terrorized by the clan and the citizens council. kennedy responds and promises that he will do a civil rights bill. medgar had been among those unmanned -- demanding.

brown v board was not being acknowledged in those states. within hours, medgar evers is coming home from a meeting and is assassinated. his children see him and witnessed him bleeding to death right in front of him. his neighbor came out and fired a shot in the air to scare away the killer. it is to the family and assassinated because of hishe is insistence on fighting for basic human rights -- basic civil rights and dignity for black people. host: you have a chapter in your book called the rules of a civil rights widow. guest: it is actually my favorite chapter in the book because it was my opportunity to talk about what myrlie evers-williams was facing.

she is a 30-year-old woman and mother of three who has to figure out how do i respond she is the first national civil rights widow. there have been lots of black women who faced widowhood because their husbands fought for civil rights or registered to vote. she is the first woman who walked out of the door and a national news crew will staring at her and she had to decide in that moment, how do i look, how will i be viewed by america, what do i say? how is my makeup, how is my hair? will i be seen as the angry black woman if i am as angry as i feel in my heart. if i show that, will i be dismissed as this angry woman? she had to contort herself in a way that would give dignity to her husband's memory, that would give dignity to herself and her family even though inside but she dealt with was absolute rage. she had to repress data and

present herself in a way -- see is the first widow to have to do that -- she is the first widow to have to do that before coretta scott king. host: you met her. tell us about that. guest: i interviewed her about half a dozen times before this book. i did this really lengthy interview at her son's house in california where i got to be with her in person. i was just with her a couple of days ago at her alma mater. she is a state treasure. she is a national treasure and an icon. she is the first person to give the inaugural minute addiction. -- the first black woman to give an inaugural benediction. president barack obama in 2016. she ran for office and congress when shirley chosen was also running for president -- when shirley chisholm was also

running for president. i believe she deserved greater flowers. she deserved to get her flowers while we still have her. also, her husband. her legacy deserves to be on the same level as welcome x and dr. king. host: we have a clip of her speaking from the lincoln memorial on the steps. this is the 50th anniversary of the march on washington back in 2013. [video clip] >> we created a framework but there is still much work left to be done. many of our civil rights leaders including my husband and dr. martin luther king were still of an age where they took the lead. with that question in mind, i challenge you to get back to community building. it is your problem. it is our problem.

it is our neighborhood. these are our children. you are the parents. but in that same breath, the victory will be collective. it is with a clear conscious, knowing what we have done and can do, that we will reach that mountaintop and we will overcome. but it will take each and every one of us in unity, in unison, letting those who say that they manage this country of america know that it is the people, it is the voice and the actions of the people that say we must overcome and will eventually say , we have overcome because of the involvement of each and every one. that is our challenge today.

[end video clip] host: that was in 2013. what do you think she would say today? guest: i had a chance to speak with her one week ago. where she is in this moment is that it is a shame that we have to fight the basic fight from our history, that we still have to say black lives matter and defend the idea that black lives matter in the 21st century. medgar evers was 47 when he died. he died for a cause that we are still fighting for. she believes that is a shame. she has a lot of fight in her and she will not stop until that more perfect union is won. host: let's talk to the callers. renee in florida. good morning. guest: -- caller: good morning. it is such a pleasure.

i first saw an interview with you and myrlie before the book and i was really impressed with her. i have not read it yet. it is on my list. i really appreciate the book and i appreciate you and her. i had my sound turned off but i saw a picture of myrlie and president clinton. what was her involvement with him? guest: thank you so much for that. the interview you are talking about is probably the interview in 2018 which was the first time i interviewed her in person in california which is what inspired me to do the book. it was her talking about medgar evers and how much she was in love with him and the way that she talked about him almost in the present tense. i remember saying to her that he has been dead for almost 50 years. that stayed with me for years. when it came time to think about

what i wanted to write about, i wanted to write about the love story because that is really what she gave me. when it comes to president clinton, myrlie evers-williams became the board chair of the naacp. she convened with presidents including president clinton and she fought for thing like more active education, improving education and she was a sounding board for president's, not just president obama but president clinton. it is the era in which she was board chair of the naacp. host: washington, michael. hello. caller: hello. the conversation is very good. what she went through, terrible stuff. the man that was giving the speech on the program early, his wife, she brings up, why cant

black america have rights like white america can? the people will only follow the government. it continues. we still have many miles to go. i can remove or playing football in high school -- i can remember playing football in high school. i graduated and went to work at the steel mill. when i came home, i went back to under a's house -- i went back to andre's house. i asked if he had a job. he said no.

i had a job and he did not have a job. guest: i think the issue is we still face discrimination in this country. i was at a talk last night and i talked about american history being like a spiral. that we roll forward and then we roll back. every time we take two steps forward, we take one step back. it is an unfortunate cycle of history. i grew up in a black neighborhood in denver, colorado in a beautiful suburb. white people did not want us in their schools. i am not that old. my sister was one of the classes of people who tried to be integrated into the white schools in denver, colorado. they were met with spitballs and catcalls and not wanted. they ended up building a school for us which is where i went. we were the first class there. it was a beautiful neighborhood. we had a gorgeous school that

looked like a shopping mall. it was beautiful. i remember one of my teachers driving me home. it was an 80% black neighborhood. the rest were a small number of white americans who were the people who did not fly out of that area because they could not afford to. i think a lot of people perceive black neighborhoods as a rundown and impoverished. that is not where i grew up. i grew up in an overwhelmingly black suburb. i live in one now. i think the perception that white americans have is that all black americans are impoverished, that all black americans are suffering and struggling and that is not true. to the extent that you do have suffering and economic struggle in the black community, some of it is manufactured. he just described going back to his community and a black person that he played football with, they both played football, they

had similar upbringings, but he had a job and that young men did not. that is because of discrimination. while a lot of people are uncomfortable talking about the fact that we do have racial discrimination in hiring, we do. it is a fact of life. rather than address that, we have sought conservation -- we have side conversations. dei is diversity and inclusion. there is nothing wrong with that. no other country has managed to do it. if we do it it will be an incredible accomplishment for america. this country is young. we can still do it. we have to start fighting for the premise of a multidimensional democracy if we want one. guest: i -- caller: i thought your joke was hilarious the other night. i wanted to add to the conversation by saying perception does matter.

you had the type of negroes and colored people. why are we still using the synonym black? there are no black people. really take hold of the narrative. i don't know if people looked up the color black in the dictionary. why would you want to call your children that? it means darkness, void. that is part of discrimination. we are not black people. we are brown. guest: the term black came about because people wanted to empower themselves. negro is a made-up term that was made up by black supremacists for people who came from multiple ethnic groups. africa is the most diverse

continent. when africans were taken to america, you are mixing tribes with no genetic relationship other than all being negro. the idea of whiteness and blackness existed in america. it did not exist before the 16th century. black people in europe were different ethnicities. the idea of whiteness did not exist until this country was founded. when europeans came here and decided to enslaved africans who spoke different languages from each other, they could not communicate with each other let alone communicate with their so-called owners. they designated white and black as a way to delineate african slaves from indentured servants who were europeans. they wanted to enslaved specifically the africans. so they invented these terms white and black in order to

distinguish themselves from the africans and distinguish themselves from the indigenous who they called savages. this is literally an invention of slaveowners in the united states. people reclaim to the term black in the 1960's, it was because they wanted to empower themselves. it was a term that felt more powerful than simply using the term negro which was invented by enslavers. i don't see any problem with black. it can mean power, beauty. it does not have to mean horror. it can in linguistics. but in terms of black culture, it does not mean that. when people say black, they mean that as a powerful term, not a negative term. host: jw in athens, ohio. caller: hello. this is my first time calling which is remarkable given how much time i have invested

watching you over the years. i want to thank you for writing the book, very timely. next, i want to say that i am a retired and very proud black and blind professor who retired in 2022. i say that because my first phd students that i advised for dissertation was a dissertation about myrlie evers and her time as a leader of the naacp. i would ask people to check that out. it is fascinating. my question is in your conversations with her because there was a lot of controversy about her leading the naacp coming full circle after her husband. did you ever discuss any of that

time when she was in leadership there? guest: thank you for that question and congratulations on your retirement. it is a beautiful thing to have leisure time. i did talk with her about that. that was an important part of her life because she had come full circle. when they were married to one another, she had a lot of ambivalence about the naacp because she had asked for protection for her husband because of the death threats and they had refused, at one point telling medgar evers that they had better things to do with their money than to protect him. there was a lot of controversy from naacp leadership about the way that he was operating in mississippi. he wanted to be with the young people in the streets. they wanted to protest, they wanted to do citizens, they wanted to de-segregate libraries and lunch counters. she was with him. the leadership did not want that. they wanted to fight in the courts. there was controversy there. when myrlie evers was asked by

joe madison was the person who really lobbied the ncaa -- the naacp was in an era of this rate. because she was an evers, they felt like she was a person could bring all the factions together. she was ambivalent about it, she was reluctant to do it she did it out of a sense of duty because she felt a duty not just to the organization her husband had led, but also to her people and the people of the u.s. she turned that organization around financially. she was their greatest fundraiser and she set the organization on a course to financial stability and also to good moral health. i think she was glad she did. she ultimately did get an apology from the incident -- the

naacp from the executive director at the time after her leadership had ended for not providing security. she ultimately did come full circle. host: we have aext from joseph in fayetteville. he says "my family is from greenwood, mississippi. i remember my mother sang black people were forced to watch lynchings. that he says that medgar evers was a hero and a warrior." guest: he cap expressing his first lynching, a gentleman named mr. tingle, drive-thru -- was kidnapped, drove through the streets, and shot. his clothes were left hung up in this fairgrounds for a year. the clan dared any black person to remove them because they wanted black people to know he

had allegedly assessed a white woman and they wouldn't like people to know this is your place and if you displease us, you can be killed. black folks during that era, not only in mississippi but per capita more than any other state have the most lynchings. gloria was number three -- florida was number three. it was a reign of terror. you were afraid of how you spoke to a white person, man, woman, or child. you could be lynched for anything. restrained to vote, joining the naacp, looking at a white person in the wrong way, speaking to them in a way that in like, not get off of the sidewalk when a white person walked down the street. host: let's talk to constance in virginia. caller: i am a fan of miss joyce

. i am 71 so i have known and seen the uphill battle that our citizens have had with the quality. this is something even as a little child, i saw this as wrong. you need to include everyone and not call people black and white, why not just call ourselves people. that is what we are, we are all human beings and we all have the same needs. we need to have better understand with one another. i believe that some of the religions tell people apart instead of bringing them together. especially when republicans use it like they are trying to do now. i don't like that at all. i want to see religion out of our government. i am not a religious person but i am very spiritual. i definitely believe in the cosmos.

host: let's get a response. guest: i appreciate your comments. i would love for us to get to a world to where we don't even identify ourselves in terms of race. i read about this there is a great new book out by robert jones of the public religious research institution and this is his area of scholarship and i hope you can look up his new book. he talks about the fact that in the 1500s, the catholic church issued a directive that said to those in the age of exploration, he blessed -- the catholic church blessed the explorers from europe going into the "new world" and said anyone you come upon in the new world, you are

allowed to attempt to convert them. if they resist in any way, you are blessed by the church to kill or enslave them. this was the directive that blessed the notion of making slaves of africans. africa have resources, it had gold that christians wanted to build lavish churches. my husband and i were to spain and we toured these beautiful churches, that gold came from the very african soil that the catholic church blessed the explorers to take him to go in and take not just legal but the people. religion has been misused and abused. i am a red q should but i believe in the red letters -- read letter christian but i believe in the red letters. they are about loving your neighbor as yourself, the other the end of the orphan, they're

not about taking, not about enslavement, not about causing pain to others or discriminating, they are about love. that has fallen out of our religious tradition, domestic right-wing unity for all christianity. there are christian it's -- christians who put the sick and the needy first. that is the kind of christianity that is uplifting to the spirit. i think you pulled up the book. host: it is called "the hidden roots of white supremacy." guest: he is one of the great posters, a demographer and poster. they do a poll of 15,000 people and they do it every year. i highly recommend reading and following it because it will show you where the right is going and how it is cleaving a park on religious lines. like evangelical christians are going one direction and everyone

else is going the other. . host: let's talk to -- in idaho. caller: i am in michigan. host: sorry about that. caller: -- i found her to be a wonderful person, very strong in what she believes. i loved her expenses in mississippi and what she went through and how she became the person she became. guest: i appreciate that. one of the most fun expenses was talking to miss myrlie about growing up in mississippi. she talks about her grandmother

and her on. i sent her on -- and her aunt. she talks about these women who raised her so lovingly. she had talks about her grandmother who was an enslaved person who was alive until she was five years old which shows you that slavery is not ancient history. she knew her grandmother, she sat at the feet of this woman who had been enslaved. we did genealogical research about their family taking it back to enslavement in two parts of mississippi. we did not have to go back that far, we only had to go back to their grandparents. host: iant one more question from someone on x pushing back on bei. -- ddi. "how can we explain the loss of unity the past few years?

dei means diversity, not segregation." guest: i do not understand the obsession with ddi. de i has existed for decades. there is a friend of mine who is a right-wing conservative who i used to debate. he is an expert in it. all it is is trying to add diversity to conditions and spaces that have been almost all white and male. if the idea of giving opportunity to the people of color offends you, your problem isn't with the dei, it is with people of color. . if the idea of inclusion says that is destroying america or causing division, that might be a personal issue you might have with people of color, not an issue with dei. dei is not new, is decades old. most dei officers in

corporations and institutions are white. affirmative action, the highest beneficiaries are also white women. when you go after dei, you might think you're getting rid of black people in spaces that shouldn't be. thanks air lines shouldn't be black -- airline pilots, i get it. dei benefits not just black people, it benefits people with disabilities, white women, women of color, latinas, asian american women and benefits veterans. a lot of dei programs are to bring veterans into spaces where they are underrepresented. it is about bringing everyone was underrepresented into spaces where there is not diversity because those positions have been held almost exclusively by

white men regardless of their publication. they have been able to hold positions and hold on to one hundred percent of positions without necessarily being the most qualified. it is by getting qualified to disabled people, women, women of color, black folks and brown folks into positions so they are represented at their population level. it is just america becoming more america. host: joy-ann reid, analyst of msnbc. the book is "medgar and myrlie."

stuart reid is an executive editor at foreign affairs foreign affairs magazine. he's written for many other notable publications, including the new york times, the washington post, politico and the atlantic amongst others. and he will be joining conversation by uzodinma iweala, who is ceo here at the africa