,

for me -- >> good morning. my name is jason and i'm the chief economist here at the bipartisan center. i want to thank everyone who has joined us in person and online at this event called building greater economic security for working families.

what a month it is to be talking about economic policy. congress avoided a shutdown last week extending funding to early march. the two parties continued to struggle over topline spending levels. lawmakers also agreed to the first major tax deal since 2020 which would provide support to families and businesses and set up a much larger discussion over tax policy expirations in 2025. it is not across the finish line yet. hope does spring journal. we produce research and policy recommendations to reform and improve a number of credit deductions and exemptions in our current tax code, including but not limited to the towel -- the child tax credit, the child and dependent care credit, and the new 45 s credit for

employer-provided paid family and medical leave. tax policy is the heart of what we do here. our research and expertise become even more relevant as lawmakers debate the future of the federal tax code next year. a number of policies are designed to support low income workers by supplementing their wages and incentivizing labor force participation. perhaps none of them are more impactful than the earned income tax credit. it was enacted in 1975 as one response to what was called stagflation of the 1970's, stagnant economic growth combined with historically high inflation. it was conceived as a work bonus . since 1975, it has undergone a

number of transmissions by congress, often on a bipartisan basis. today is lighted for boosting employment rates, providing nearly $60 billion in annual support to workers and their families and lifting millions of people out of poverty each year. bpc has engaged parties in congress, the second of french, and stakeholders across the i'd logical spectrum on federal reform for years. most recently in the wake of the american rescue plan changes to the credit for child support. our policy recommendations informed by rigorous research and use of data on unemployment and effects include expanding credit to workers without children and simplifying the rules to enhance take-up rates and reduce improper payments.

31 states plus the district of columbia offer a state version of it which can further supplement wages and support working communities across the nation. we will hear from our introductory speaker, one of the only states that offers both the state and local version of the credit. we have worked with state governments to understand and harmonize with the federal counterparts, reducing complexity for taxpayers. our goal is to improve communication between state governments, community partners, and taxpayers, to supply the process and reduce the burdens for workers and their families. we are not the only ones with an interest in this, which brings up today's conversation. we are grateful to have

impactful voices with us today to lead a conversation on the past, present, and future of the earned income tax credit. it is my privilege to welcome brooke lederman who serves as the 34th comptroller of the state of maryland and the first woman to be independently elected. she is of a rights attorney and served in maryland's house of delegates. she held leadership roles on the prorations committee, the environment and stress tradition committee, the committee on pensions, and the joint committee on ending homelessness . thank you for joining bpc and we look forward to engaging conversation. it is my delight to welcome you and kickoff event today.

>> it is wonderful to be here, thank you for that introduction. it is good to be home. i am a d.c. native but now a resident of charm city. thank you for that introduction and to the bipartisan policy center for bringing us together on a friday morning to discuss tax policy, a brave thing to do. i always appreciated the chance to speak about how the earned income tax credit played such an important role in economic prosperity in this country and in maryland. as the comptroller for the stated moment, i served as the state's elected cfo and our revenue administrator which is an ester way of saying tax collector. as a cfo, i watch every dollar in and every dollar out of the state. i study our economic performance and i weigh what can be done to preserve and help the physical

health of every community. my goal is to work in partnership with my fellow elected federal and local partners and businesses to create a state that is more equitable, resilient, and prosperous so every maryland or -- marylander can reach their potential. that is what the earned in to him -- earned income tax credit. it is a tool that has demonstrated its ability to reduce poverty and help build economic mobility. james baldwin said anyone who has ever struggled with poverty knows how extremely expensive it is to be poor. -- our neighbors aren't -- our bank overdraft fees, if that out

of the bank account, they are going to check cashing facilities. they cannot afford to live near where they work. data shows that the earned income tax credit, the simple act of getting people back some of the money they have earned in a lump sum payment has an agreeable effect on helping people survive and take steps towards a life not living paycheck to paycheck. the center on budget and policy priorities found the eitc listed 5.6 million people above the poverty line. as a former state delegate and now as the elected cfo, i have the privilege of hearing stories from marylanders on how tax policies have affected their lives. a few stories have stuck with me. several years ago i met a mother who was working a minimum wage job and she talked about how she happened to find one of our non-craft -- nonprofit partners

to help her prepare her taxes for the time. she receives the full credit of the earned income tax credit, federal and state, as a result. she took that money and used it to enroll in community college classes. she secured a certification that she used to get a new job. three years later she was making too much to afford the earned income tax credit. i talked with other families, our ever knocking doors one summer in cherry hill where i met a mom who could not afford summer camp for her children. much as returning the tax credit, she all of a sudden had enough to center kids to summer camp so she could continue working a full-time job. so many parents can benefit from this. eitc, available to working taxpayers who meet certain

qualifications, provides money that give people access to these resources that improve their circumstances in ways that can be life-changing. whether that is community college credits or a down payment for a car so you have more reliable transportation, paying utility bills during winter months, or camp or childcare for children so parents can work full-time. the stories go on and on. maryland is one of 30 states that has an earned income tax credit on top of the federal eitc. more than 451,000 marylanders claimed $448 million in state credits. you have expended eligibility. pilots you only have an eye 10 can access our state eitc. we increased the size of the credit to 48% and we allow for childless workers to access it.

it is interesting to see where the credit goes. although metropolitan jurisdictions have the latest numbers of people claiming the credits come outside, four of the five credits with the highest percentage of returns are actually residents of maryland's rural eastern shore. even with the success we have had to be doing this money, too many people are not claiming the credit. it can be complicated. passing the policy is not enough. we have to assure uptake happens. that means making sure agencies have the money they need. four out of five eligible taxpayers claim the eitc and in 20, approximately 70 percent that could claim the eitc did so. in 2021, 3000 -- did not claim

its. 300,000 people who could have earned a little more money to bring themselves out and be more mobile. my agency is committed to helping their lenders understand when they qualify for the federal and state eitc and other credits. we work in partnership with groups like aarp or in maryland, the cash campaign or other low income tax clinics to make sure people can access what they need. in a time when economic mobility is challenged, the eitc is one that can help people move. states and federal government, we need them to support and expand programs like this but

also help make sure revenue agencies can spread the birds people claim these credits. thank you so much for convening this important conversation and i look forward to hearing more. i am excited to welcome ceo and chair of the bipartisan policy center, margaret spellings. jpmorgan chase ceo, jamie dimon. and former speaker of the house, paul ryan. >> thank you and congratulations on the work you're doing to lift folks out of opportunity. i am margaret spellings, president and ceo of the bipartisan policy center. i am thrilled you will have joined us today. there are a lot of folks on tv

land, c-span, or watching virtually. i want to recognize a couple of numbers, senator roy blunt who is an executive with us and ron christie. welcome to you. i am excited to be here with two awesome guests, my friend, paul ryan. you were the youngest speaker of the house in 150 years. you will have to tell you about the one younger than you. mr. ryan: james blaine. >> learn something every day. he was the 34th speaker of the house, a challenging job who also chaired two committees and was mitt romney's running mate in the presidential campaign. a key for staying on the battlefield. since leaving congress, has founded the american ideals foundation to expand economic activity.

he walks the walk and teaches at notre dame as a visiting fellow at the american enterprise institute. and jamie dimon, who is the chairman and ceo of j.p. morgan with assets exceeding $3 trillion. he also serves on many nonprofit and charitable boards. he is on the business roundtable board and also chaired that board. a great partner organization with us. and the partnership for new york city and harvard business school. we still claim that affiliation. jamie: it is harvard business school. margaret: i am here with two very distinguished individuals. let's make it right to it. -- let's get right to it. why is this issue so important to you to talk about building better economic security? mr. ryan: this is a bipartisan

issue. the eitc, i think it was a freeman idea, it has bipartisan roots but proven to be very effective. when i was chairman of the ways and means committee, i worked to expand the eitc. a couple of reforms have yet to materialize. if you are pushing for a society that is known by upward mobility and were striving for equality of opportunity, the best tool we have had is the eitc. i think that something we all acknowledge, democrats and republicans and everyone in between. how do we make it better? how to be afford these things? that is the conversation we have to have. you don't think of congress at this bipartisan place. margaret: we do. mr. ryan: i know you do. most people who watch the news do not think of it that way. eitc is.

let's keep it that way and make it better. jamie: this is as much of a no-brainer policy as i have ever seen. a woman or a man making $14,000 a year with three children gets a $6,000 check at the end of the year. no children, i think they get $600. it cost $60 billion a year. if you can put another six people in dollars a year, it goes into the household, the money gets used for food, kids, education. the data, they have better health, outcomes, jobs, brings dignity. if you did not finish high school but you can work with your hands, you could earn a living wage. that is not true in today's modern world. that first rung of the letter brings dignity. i think it is unbelievable. with all of the polarization we

have today, the low income folks have more crime, worse health, less good schools. this is like a no-brainer. i would pay for it by taxing the wealthy more. we want to go into that -- we won't go into that. margaret: that is a different program. jamie: there are so many tax breaks. all of my friends in new york hates me. i don't think arkansas should be playing for new york's spending. mr. ryan: let's underline that statement. jamie: i think it is important reducing them like this. i love that paul, you have to try to do this since i have known you. margaret: talk about the criticality of now with inflation as it is into the economic resiliency of american families in light of this.

jamie: it would be skewed to minorities. this is the time to do something like this in modern society. we can afford it, it helps so many people. i love that you're picking us up because i think is that truth like the bipartisan institute will help get it done. polarization is such a big deal. you have part of your population, if you look at the numbers -- that is the percent that i think is eligible for this tax credit. that is not true recently. it has been different, but that was 20 years. those are the ones who may not have medical insurance, who lost a job during covid, they paid a price and the price was not paid by most people in this room. now is the time to that of society and help -- time to lift

up society and help. margaret: you said there is wide bipartisan support, but the works are gummed up these days. what will it take to get this done? mr. ryan: it is not in the current package because it does not have something deadline which is the deal that is public or to pass. abe is part of this conversation i think we can arrive at is the role technology plays in improving the efficacy of this program. when i was ways and means chair, i'm not a fan of a lump sum concept, wait till the end of the year. i would rather have it embedded in the paychecks of each pay period have higher pace of can budget more. people can pay for one thing but it would be better if it was in your paycheck and you could have higher wages. it demonstrates the makework pay notion. the reason we could not fix this

when i was running the committee is technology. the irs and the treasury department did not have the technology to do that. as we toyed with the idea, we could have converted to a social security credit, but that means eviscerating the entire program. by now surely technology can solve this problem. as you look at the digitization of money and benefits, that is the key. you can make sure it goes to witness to go to. 300,000 and change people in maryland qualify but don't get it? technology could solve that. technology could embed in your monthly paycheck. if we have program integrity issues, technology can clear that up. the adventures of, technology can fix a lot of that. we want to encourage older people. i am 53, i feel like 43.

if you are 73, you might want to keep working but you cannot get the eitc. there are a lot of things we can do for labor force participation, getting younger people in the marketplace, keeping older people. it can make it work cheaper. that is something congress should wrestle with and that is not that controversial. it will shrink the score of what it takes to expand this. we have a lot coming in tax law in the next session of congress. there is where you have churn of tax policy where you have the opportunity to make expansions. bigger reform makes things like this easier. margaret: amen. although, that means more resources for the rs. that has been controversial.

mr. ryan: let's just invest in technology. jamie: there are companies where you don't file taxes because it is done automatically. margaret: you mentioned benefits to rural families, can you talk about that? there is a mythology about who it benefits. jamie: this should be skewed to communities who don't have the same income levels. i forgot the number but -- you are putting it in your community. it will be spent locally. when people talk about what it would cost, you spend 60 billion more, it would pick up the gdp.

texas would be paid somewhere so it would not cost 60. we have got to do a better job. dynamic tax. margaret: amen. the tax cuts and drawbacks, the trump tax cuts that are expiring next year, it is going to be a riproaring debate. the debt ceiling debate -- debt ceiling issues will be about will be before us. talk about how we might lay the groundwork for no-brainer policies like this? mr. ryan: i consider it one of my finest achievements. we went from a worldwide system that made firms uncompetitive to a territorial system. we brought our tax rates in competition with the rest of the world. we were overtaxing our companies, pushing them overseas. we fixed that. there are some things that could be better. full expensing is no longer full

expensing. i want get into all of -- i will not get into all of the this and that, but when we wrote the bill , we made permanent what we thought needed to be made permanent for decision-making. the corporate rate, the territorial system. we only had so much physical space to write this. we made temporary the provisions we thought would be easier under any political landscape to extend. we call that section 91 a. my guess is you will have a divided government. it will look like the fiscal cliff did when obama was president, would be my guess. in that, what can you do? there are two points i would make. the growth rate for the u.s. economy for the next generation, for the next 30 years is going to be 1.3%. that is half of what we grew on

average the last 30 years. the cbo is looking at the world in front of us, the budget and tax policy we have on display, and we are going to have half the growth rate. a stagnant society. the reason this site that is labor force for dissipation. he were people are working. there are demographics but fewer people working. this is one of the best things you can do to get people in the labor force. the more people we get working, the faster our economy gross and society benefits. this is one of the most critical tools to address one of the big challenges we have in front of us. i with her this into a bigger debate about digitizing our benefits -- i would throw this into a bigger debate about digitizing a benefits. i don't want to talk too long but what happens is you have these benefits. talking about the imam, a single

mom with two kids. she gets a job and she is doing well. she maybe gets a raise or gets a better job. she looks at her income and she says i am going to lose my benefits. i am going to stay where i am. i am going to stunt my upward mobility. that is the design of this 20th-century benefit system. the eitc is one of the best tools to guard against that, but imagine if we could phaseout his benefit clips by combining a benefits, making them congruent with one another and clean it up so that on a per family and per individual basis, we can make it always pay to get that enhancement, always pay to get the raise, go to school, improve yourself? i think that is the new wave of reform. it is that for universal basic income. the ubi debate which pays people not to work would slow the economy down and pulls people out of the workforce. eitc digitization of government

benefits is built on upward mobility, build so we can actually smooth these inventors -- these incentives, make it cost less and focus on benefits that get people to work. this should be built around a eitc reform. jamie: different forms go to different places. it is important for people to understand that at 20 years we grew at 1.7%. had a big run another 1.3% more, the average income per person would be $15,000 higher per person. that kind of growth pays for everything. it is for benefits, technology, health. we did not do it. we do not strive to say what should we be doing? america is so prosperous.

the industry is so good, we struggled to get 2%. all of the negatives we have out there, all of the disincentives, the tax act -- this is what people don't understand. they think it is the wealthy paying. we had a 36% corporate tracks -- corporate tax rate. we stayed at six. trillions of dollars of american dollars got invested overseas as opposed to here. it slows growth. the tax plan, these guys were tougher than you think. when the tax rate dropped that much, they collected another $1 trillion. that was from the salt tax. jamie: a lot of liberals -- mr. ryan: a lot of loopholes. jamie: loopholes in moving property overseas and get 10%. that drop was $1.4 trillion.

they took back to other things. $1 trillion can back to the u.s.. growth accelerated. people have a knee-jerk reaction because it is bad for companies to pay more taxes. if you hurt america, you are doing a bad thing for lower income people. we know so much and get so much done --. mr. ryan: the bar is low. jamie: we need to get this stuff right if we want to help our population. margaret: what role sure you -- sure you play? -- should you play? you are helping employees eligible for the eitc and other things like that. from a five liter -- from a thought leader position, how can you help feed the ground and bring improvements? jamie: j.p. morgan, the minimum

income was $20 an hour. they get medical, dental, pilates, yoga. we take care of our employees. i wouldn't worry about these companies paying way above the bottom half. i think is for important to get involved in public policy. some public policy begin to evolve in -- public policy we get involved in, we have wealth planning and community centers and checking accounts that don't have overcast -- don't have overdraft. business has to get more involved in public policy. taxes, immigration, regulation, health care, social security, pension plans, finances, all of these things that we are getting wrong.

affordable housing, our mortgage system. i find it hugely frustrating and that is why think that the part of the american economy could overcome a lot of that. our litigation system, 1% more than most countries around the world. it is arbitrary and slow. i look at these things and we have got to fix them. part of it is getting involved directly. i also tell ceos when they get involved in d.c., there are 17,000 lobby groups. banks have like five. there are 17,000. there is a lobby group for everything. but most go to washington to fight their own stupid little stuff. idle tax rate here, little benefit here. the ceos say and go to fight for america that is what the bpc does.

there is not expected except for the difference for wealthy people or low income people. it is important to get involved in the debate. it is tough. when i started working, going to washington was an anathema. we get criticized but you have to get involved in the fight. make it factual. not knee-jerk reactions to everything. everything out there, there is a knee-jerk reaction. one last statement, i have so much respect for this guy. when i go to d.c., there are people who are decent, hard-working, senators in congress try to figure it out. there are people on the fringes who get much more airtime. that is what the population sees more of. they don't see the serious hard-working people who want to benefit not just their state with their country.

we have got to start doing it, we have got to get involved in the fight. one day i want him back, too. margaret: talk about the greater picture here. the whole fiscal mix, how we deal with our economy, the challenges. mr. ryan: our reserve currency is under duress, even though we already healthy looking horse in the glue factory, we are in trouble of losing that privilege. our debt is under control -- out of control. we have discussed this here quite a bit. we don't have the economic growth we need. economic growth does not solve all of our problems but you cannot solve any of our problems without economic growth. you have to have economic growth faster than what we are projected to have. we know the dials we can turn to get that.

a lot of it is about getting people in the workforce and getting people equipped. if we can focus ourselves on upward mobility and skills and tools to get people in the workforce skill trained and living their best life, we can get that. to me, the things i described about digitization, rebuilding our safety net so it works for the 21st-century to get people working, getting the incentives right, getting out only our tax policy right but getting our debt under control. you have to reform our programs. you must do this if you are to stop a debt crisis and if you are going to get these programs the way -- programs working the way they are supposed to. you are still a democrat, right? [laughter] democrats and republicans, there is a consensus in america. we see this when you turn on the

television because you have entertainers and then legislators. we agree on the social contract and the social contract litigated and debated in the 20th century is we want health and retirement security for all americans. the government is going to provide this. the question is how does the government provide this. we want a safety net under which people don't fall so they can get back on their feet. we will have a good debate about how that works, but we have consensus about the social contract, a social safety net, and we all want economic growth. the good thing that bpc and other institutes do is we have all this evidence and data, we are doing evidence-based policymaking now, we know what works and doesn't work. we can get past the ugly politics and gets to just executing these proven things, these things we have consensus on.

he just mentioned all of these things j.p. morgan does because they are a private sector company that is on top of technology and renovating constantly -- innovating constantly. the bridge that has to be divided is you have to accept that the private sector will have a role in this because the private sector knows how to do it. they have technology. they are elevating constantly. -- innovating constantly. let's put that intellectual capital towards government services. people are still stuck in a 20th century notion. government should do this. government is supposed to solve poverty. government is supposed to deliver health care. it has not well -- done it well. use the people who know how to do it to help us deliver on these goals. that does take a bit of a philosophical jump for some. if we can get over that, we are good to have a great 21st

century. margaret: do you want to react to that? jamie: i totally agree. this summer i was in spokane and boise, innovation is everywhere. free enterprise it works. i am a red-blooded full throated -- where policy works, go back to five than 50 years ago. secretary and, not so educated, white male. it didn't work and politics got it -- people got back on track. you go to dublin, amazon is there. you walked on the street where these two have fires. full employment, higher gdp that america. they have tech people, it is booming. when you go there, it is a

melting pot. they elected an indian gate immigrant as prime minister -- gay immigrant as prime minister. it changed. we look at the other ones, venezuela, cuba, argentina, the ones that suffered. it does work, but it is possible to change it. countries have done it. america, we have to get better at it. margaret: how should congress simplify the eitc to cut down the error rate and include those excluded who incorrectly believe they don't qualify? mr. ryan: digitization. we did program integrity when i was there. that helped save $24 billion. i think digitization. that helps you make sure

everybody gets it who qualifies for it and it can streamline the administration of the program. treasury has terrible software. if you can fix that, you can use private sector companies to do that. you can make it monthly and in bed it in the person's paycheck. however they get paid, the eitc should be in there. that to me with digitization, with the key is sure someone's identity cannot be stolen and they are who they say they are, technology can do that. that helps you extend the eitc. that will cost more money. you do that within the scheme of broader reform. jamie: get rid of the child requirement. make it simpler to start. margaret: because we already have other things in that realm. how do you balance growth, -- by

making it easier for parents to step away and do flex work for the sick of their children? jamie: this helps because more income, you can afford more things. we were probably both go for child tax credit. refundable, etc. margaret: we are about to. mr. ryan: getting that right matters. margaret: do you want to react to that? no time with your kid versus more time in the workforce? mr. ryan: you take a person's benefits, stack their benefits up, housing assistance, eitc, child support, student aid, everybody has different benefits. they are different agencies. the best poverty programs involve these case managers that help navigate all of this stuff. digitization can fix that. you can help money perform how

it is supposed to perform. they can you a -- do a usdc, j.p. morgan can give you money that forms the way it is supposed to perform. this money goes for food, this money goes for housing. you can stack benefits and as they succeed in life, you are rhythmically -- you algorithm aclly -- that to to me -- that to me is how you can make sure that your policy services, like we did with the tax credit, that is the way to do this. none of this can be done if you cannot pay for it. we cannot pay for anything in this country if we don't get our title that's under control.

-- our entitlements under control. you are going to have to have entitlement reform under -- reform as part of this. either the bond markets come at us and tell us to do it in ugly real-time surgery that hurts existing people or you do it in a phased in way where it doesn't affect seniors. it is the next generation and you are redesigning this program so they better fulfill their mission at a price that is not bankrupt the country in that context which has to be done in the next decade. a commission is the only way to fix this. that is where all this gets done. that thing was not designed the right way because with was disavowed before you left the room. >> -- jamie: it was the right thing to do. mr. ryan: that sort of thing

with a commission is the way to do that and that is how you redesign these programs. margaret: we are supportive of that. talk about the bigger issues and the economy. we have politicians on both sides opposed to tackling a program. jamie: in 1982 when inflation was 12% and paul volker had to do tough medicine, i graduated school and the prime rate was 24 -- 21.5%. stagflation is the worst thing. the market haven't gone up 15 to 20 years and then we had the vietnam war. jet -- debt to gdp with 35%. today is over 100%. you spend money during the recession. today it is 6.5% in a boom time. when you look at fiscal responsibility and equally for quantitative easing, the

government has spent $4 trillion buying bonds which creates liquidity and puffs up the financial system. if you look at the 100% debt to gdp, 1935 it is going to be 130%. the hockey stick doesn't start yet. when it starts, mortgage around the world, there will be a rebellion. that is the worst possible way to do it. it is a cliff, we see the cliff about 10 years out. we are going 60 miles per hour. mr. ryan: the most predictable crisis we have had. jamie: exactly. this is about the security of the world, we need a stronger military. we need a stronger america, we needed now. i put this as a risky thing for all of us. some are easy to fix like social security. health is much different and more complicated.

you get these technology companies, you could take 100 kids, put them in a room and they could build what you want. literally. you talk about funding the irs, modernize the technology and it is doable. that is how they build these companies. mr. ryan: in five years we are going to be paying more in interest that we were from the pentagon. margaret: we think it might be sooner than that. jamie: all discretionary spending. margaret: talk about the logistics of the kind of public-private partnerships you have mentioned. by the ready to turn to abc tech company to do the kinds of things that need to be done quickly? as you know, there is skepticism. how do we make the wonderful things you are talking about. mr. ryan: the answer is there is no consensus for that.

i used to advance these ideas which were not popular at the time. on poverty policy, is basically government monopolies. -- it is basically government monopolies. please do for the idea that the world poverty is the government's responsibility, it is not yours. pay your taxes and they will handle it. that did not work. why don't we decentralize this and make it competitive. let's have the private sector and the not-for-profit sector participate with their technology helping us solve these problems and even do that in government benefits. if you can bring in private sector know-how to help us deliver government goals like fighting poverty and deliver government benefits, we can save more money, get to with equal faster. it does require a big political leap of faith for people who do not think these things should be nongovernment. we still have that problem.

let's try, let's test it. let's do some pilot projects, randomized controlled trials. to see, does this work, can this be proven? that should not be too offensive for those who do not want government involvement. we are in the 21st century and that is where i think this ultimately ends up. let's start with some tests. you can do it in the state, in the county, a randomized controlled trial. let's do that and take it from there. margaret: how do you think about confidence in the projects? jamie: 80% of all jobs are private sector. the biggest part of innovation is the private sector. the military jets are private sector. i remember somebody saying the hoover dam was built by american money, no.

you need the collaboration. a place like detroit, that mayor has brought in five not-for-profit companies. we spent half $1 million building something any citizen can take a picture of homes and now he knows and you can start to plan. collaboration works. you want any infrastructure bill? there has got to be collaboration. there has to be intelligent design collaboration because companies will also feed at that trough, too. tax credits are simple, clear. they work for affordable housing. there are millions of programs that work. when fdr, when world war ii was going, he called up dupont and the people who run the big cars and they said i need your help. when president eisenhower -- he

asked people who know how to do it. of course there is collaboration. there is no other way to do it. the government has its own role. we cannot do military, nasa, darpa. you're going to have a little bit of both. 80%, most of the r&d. most of these problems you cannot fix without government. but if you want the big money in utilities, climate, cars, penicillin, medical, it is companies. the government does not have money to do that. the value of america is $150 trillion. those companies have the unbelievable wherewithal. big and small, all companies. margaret: question from the audience. we are seeing initiatives take in missouri and connecticut, still in knee-jerk reaction to

cash for families, they will use it for drugs. please are thwarting education. how can people across the aisle manage innovation successfully? jamie: i like testing something. i don't know if the baby bonds would work. we have tested this. once a person starts saving, they continue to save. make it easy on your phone, put your paycheck, five dollars a month or something. some of these might work. i am in favor of catching them. the problem with several programs as they are not tested -- is they are not tested. that money is not being used. most government departments should tell the public you give me $50 billion, you said i was going to do x, here's what i

did. i don't think anybody tells you that. mr. ryan: that is not how it works. jamie: i am staying at j.p. morgan for now. mr. ryan: what my foundation does is we work with economists at notre dame, we run controlled trials on what we think are successful poverty programs to find out what works so we can scale and replicated. the government can do that, too. the last time i was here -- jamie: not-for-profit? mr. ryan: it is not-for-profit. jamie: send me a thing and i going to send you some money. that can fix the world. mr. ryan: the last time i was here was with teddy murray, a progressive democrat from washington state. we wrote the evidence act, the five year anniversary came a week ago.

what the evidence act does -- we are on the cusp of something good. the act says the federal government has to open up its data so the world, the private sector and economists and researchers can look at does what we do work or not? the government never did this. we measure success anything the government does based on effort. how much money we are spending, earning, -- the evidence act is turning the government to do that. when you're measuring yourself on kpi's and results like the private sector has, you will get us toward this results oriented governing which requires this integration with the private sector so we get the best practices. we are on the cusp of a new wing of social science, ed miliband stte -- evidence based policy.

skate to where the puck is. forget about the old school government and press release effort, let's make sure we are results and outcome based. using the best technology and testing them, controlled trials and pilot projects, can get us to that answer. margaret: you have 27 seconds to say amen. jamie: i love the fact that you came. amen. earned income tax credit is probably the best thing to do. margaret: thank you, gentlemen. thank you, brooke. [applause]

[indiscernible conversations]