eventually random 75 yards got behind the haysville and gave it some squirts. nothing happened. yeah, give it another couple more squirts and nothing happened, you know, and he about to give up. you know all of a sudden he heard a thing and a flash. and what had happened the gas had gotten inside in their ammunition. and the blew it up. and they came out pretty fast after after that. yeah, you can watch this interviewnts entirety along with other "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. i'm joined by jeff guinn the author of the book waco, branch davidians and legacy of rage. it has been 30 years since that event. welcome to the program.

take us back to early 1993. what was going on? who was david and who are the branch davidians? guest: they were a breakaway group from the seventh church that originally separated in the 1930's and by 1993 they were settled on 77 acres of property outside of waco texas david karesh was the leader and accepted by them as a prophet who was the land from the book of revelation who with his followers was going to lead a battle against the government to bring about the end of time or the end of days and a new holy kingdom on earth afterward. the branch davidians were accepted as strange but otherwise left alone by their

waco neighbors. they come to the attention of the fbi and the atf. there were charges they had illegal automatic weapons and other things involving abuse of children, polygamy, statutory rape of young children. there were a lot of rumors though nothing had been definitively proven. host: how many people were living there at the time? guest: in the building, mount caramel, described as a compound which sounds more sinister, there were about 130 people, of those may be 90-95 were adults in the lesser teenager and children. they were self-contained. host: you mentioned a lot of rumors. but they -- atf served a warrant. what happened then? guest: atf had heard from

disenchanted former members of the branch davidians as well as delivery man who brought strange ominous packages to mount caramel that the branch davidians were accumulating an arsenal of illegal automatic weapons and legally purchased semiautomatic weapons and pieces to convert them to automatic. they had not registered each of these weapons as they were supposed to nor paid the fees in evolved -- and balance. according to the members, branch davidians were preparing for mass suicide or plans to break out into civilian waco and start a fire fight which branch davidians believed would precipitate the end of days. the atf was also convinced there was a drug lab at mount carmel.

child protective services have been investigating child abuse punishment of children physical punishment and possibility of statutory rape by david karesh of under age young women. the atf got a warrant to be able to conduct a raid on mount carmel. the purpose of the raid was to arre david karesh and take possession of any illegal weapons that might be found. it's my subheading when into the raid it was all based on the element of surprise and three days from now, 30 years from the day atf attempted a rate was 76 agents, they thought they would catch the branch davidians by surprise, they did not.

a fire fight ensued and then that culminated in aie and a tragic fire to the fakes of which we are still filling three decades later. -- the effects of which we are still dealing with three decades later. host: we are taking your calls. if you remember this from 30 years ago or your recollection, you got a question, give us a call. our lives are by region. eastern/central timezones, 202-748-8000. mountain/pacific timezones, 202-748-8001. you can send us a text at 202-748-8003 and we are on social media. let's go back to the initial fire fight. who started that? who fired that first shot? guest: that starts the

controversy really. according to the members of atf, 76 of their agents approached mount carmel building inside two cattle cars and this is ranch country in texas and cattle trailers were familiar sites. it was assumed the branch davidians would think some ranchers had taken the wrong turn of their driveway. mount carmel was built on a sloping hill. it was in the crust of the hill. there was a long drive late leaving -- leading ut. if you have thought they were taking the branch davidians by surprise and they could storm out of the trailers announce themselves and go to the front door. they also believed all the automatic weapons the branch davidians had accumulated were kept in a locked room and had to be hoping and be distributed --

it will have to be open and distributed before a firefight to be possible. the branch davidians knew in advance atf was about to arrive. the guys were in hand and shooting immediately started freed four of the 76 agents were killed and another six were wounded and five branch davidians initially died. several more wounded. as to who fired first, according to atf, the bullet started raining down on them the minute the trailers open their doors in -- and the ages began to emerge. according to the branch davidians, the ages exited, david koresh opened the front door as the ages, please hold your buyer, there is women and children and the agent started shooting to defend themselves. each side is clearly in the belief 30 years later the survivors of each side that the

other one started it. in my interviews and years of research i talked to some members of the waco media would also been alerted that the rate is going to take place and it was no surprise to anybody but atf and these members of the media who were watching from across the room unanimously believed the fire he began from inside the compound at the agents. there's never going to be unanimous agreement. host: there is a 51 day standoff. what was happening during the 51 days? guest: during the standoff, mount carmel was surrounded. not just by ages at the fbi that took over after the first failed atf attempt to take mount carmel, but also by army supporters vehicles including

tanks, the fbi was not going to take a chance that branch davidis exited with automatic weapons that they would not enough firepower to stop them. fbi negotiators continued talking to david koresh and his number two steve snyder trying to convince the branch davidians the come out peacefully branch davidians on one occasion promise they would come out. he reneged on that according to the fbi, according to david koresh, god told him to wait. it lasted 51 days. fbi negotiators wanted to keep talking. fbi tacticians wanted to end the thing created there's concern any moment branch davidians might come out shooting. eventually the tacticians won

and on the 51st day fbi attempted to move the branch davidians from mount carmel by inserting teargas in a noncombustible container and did finally come out when their eyes were irritated enough. instead all of the gas was inserted within a few hours, great cause of it filled the halls of mount carmel about noon april 19, a fire broke out and golfed the whole building within minutes. temperatures reached an estimated 3000°. only nine people escaped. 76 including children died. host: there were congressional hearings after that. one of the hearings back in 1983 tell us.

the hearings in 1993 told us essentially what we still know or simply known today. there is no coherent reason why those steps were taken on april 19 they did not follow a plan the attorney general thought she had explained to for the gas to be over two days. why did it go in at once? there were questions of whether the branch davidians fired at the fbi agent that morning are they did not. -- that's morning or they did not. there is controversy. david koresh they were -- had promised they would go out peacefully. the fbi thought he was bluffing. because so many mistakes was

made on the part of both federal agencies and things done wrong by the branch davidians, whether there was some great conspiracy in place. whether it was a plan by united states government to simply wipe out a group of peaceful, gun owning christian americans. the conspiracy theories continue in their use as a basis as ground zero for terrible things that have happened since. host: i want to show viewers a piece from the c-span archives of those hearings back in 1993. april, nine days after the waco fire between democratic congressman john conyers and attorney general janet reno. [video clip] >> i like you to note there is at least one member in the congress that is not going to rationalize the death of two dozen children there were not

cultists, they're not nuts, there are not criminals. they were initially does -- they were innocently trap in there. these agencies blame extreme criticism. it is not president clinton's thought. he has taken your advice is. he has taking judge sessions otherwise. he is taken mr. powell's advice. i want to get straight answers. i read so many conflicting rationales about this, that it is embarrassing. i have been through each of these incidents i cited. doesn't anybody have historical recollection in federal law-enforcement of how to deal with these kinds of people? i yield the bounds of my time

for anything you like to respond to me. >> i have not tried to rationalize the death of children congressman. i feel more strongly about it then you will ever know, but i have neither tried to rationalize the death of four atf agents and i will not walk away from a compound where atf agents have been killed by people who knew they were agents and leave them on surrounded. i will not authorize a military excursion with the forces of the military of that compound with a direct assault such as what you might expect in military situation. i will stand by and be proud of fbi as it use restrained most of all, i would not engage in criminalization. i will look to the future and learn everything i can from the situation cowboy tragedy as this in the future -- for the situation to avoid tragedy in the future. host: your reaction to the

change? guest: it is typical reaction from both sides. the political accusers have to play to an audience. you're upsetting the people. if any innocent people die, children die in a conflict that was not necessary, it is not only a tragedy, it is something that has to be examined and people have to with the decisions have to be brought to book for them. the problem was in terms of what happened in waco, the fbi and atf never had any understanding of what the branch davidians believed and why they would not come out if the leader told them not to and why they actually believed that if they died at the hands of the agents, it was a gift from god, a reward from -- for helping start the end times. at the same time, janet reno

also correct in that laws were being broken. dangerous, illegal automatic weapons were being stockpiled by a group that is intended to use them in a battle against the government. whether the government instigated it or if they did not, that he did to fight -- they needed to fight. everything that has happened since and you can hear the pain in the voice of the congressman. of course, there is pain. children died who do not need to. janet reno, laws are being broken and that the fbi had wanted to kill everyone in that building, they had the means to do so for 51 days. it would not have to wait at all if that was their intention. we have a situation where they are all kinds of bad judgment on every side of this issue. that is why it is worth studying now because if remains

unresolved, the resentment only linger, they fester in our country. host: that is what i wanted to ask you and we will get the cause after this. the subtitle of your book is david koresh the branch davidians and legacy of rage. what is that rate? -- that legacy? guest: the best proof of legacy came two days after the burn of mount carmel. in -- timothy mcveigh blew up a federal building in oklahoma city killing hundreds including many children. after he was captured he said he did what he did in retaliation for mount carmel. we have to get back to the government what they give to us. that incident in 1993 fostered a growing movement of armed

militia in america. it has been tried. over the years, hundreds of antigovernment armed militias spreading up and about all of them claimed they were doing this so that there would not be another waco in their community. alex jones, the podcaster of the great note, preempted memorial service there a couple years later memorializing the branch davidians to say that from now on if there is anything like it, it would not happen again. and that was his first national attempt for attention and he succeeded. i goes up to march 6, 2021 -- it goes up to march 6, 2021, the center grow to the assault on the capital cut 13th become a militia man.

they said in response to waco. if you look at any of the website some these militia organizations and they are there to see, several of them cite waco as the reason for their existence. we have to make sure it does not happen again. host: let's start taking calls. visit in pennsylvania, good morning. caller: good morning. i did not think this topic was going to go the way it did. i am impressed. our member that well. i remember that well. i remember the documentaries that came out. what is concerning was big government telling people what religion they could practice, what they cannot practice.

i do not recollect any of those people killing anybody or having means to have what happened happened other than big government. like ruby ridge and things like that. there was so much discussed, my head is spinning with questions. i like the direction this is going. thank you. host: jeff? guest: the whole idea that this was repression of religious freedom, this is a critical point that is also a critical mistake that was made by the federal agencies. the belief of the branch davidians, their religious foundation of reasons for collecting the guns and preparing to use them, was never considered by the atf or fbi. the fbi called the branch davidians believes bible ba bble.

they had no understanding, here was a group that truly believed that god had instructed them to prepare for this final battle that the book of revelations was going to be finally carried out in the day -- and david koresh was the lamb who was going to lead the struggle. if they had known that, if they had taken the time to learn that they would have realized that some kind of direct assault was never, ever going to work. in fact, the kind of assault atf launch fit perfectly with david koresh had preached bible and we try to do with the believers. their religious beliefs had nothing to do with atf and fbi did. they are breaking the law and the agents of atf and fbi are tasked with -- to arrest

lawbreakers. on the others, branch davidians had no interest in secular law. they were aware to an extent they were breaking laws and could be held account for it but they did not care. secular law meant nothing to them. they believe their appalling instructions of god which took precedent. they were with those guns and with the intent of at some point having an armed confrontation where people must die to fulfill the prophecies and revelations. as you can see, nobody understood anybody else, but there is never any intent on part of the government to suppress religious freedom. is religious freedom acceptable when it includes not only breaking secular laws, but pointing towards an ultimate

goal of an arm shootout? that is what it was going to come to so far as the branch davidians were concerned and tragically as he wants they were right. --in one since they were right. host: can you talk about how atf and fbi has changed since this tragedy and rules of engagement? guest: that is something that has been overlooked in the years since. fbi and atf made terrible mistakes and judgment in terms of what they did at mount carmel. atf learned from this that they did not have the resources to plan an all-out multi force operation against well armed numerous lawbreakers. they will have to scale back. the fbi took a terrible

criticism and much of it justified for their actions at mount carmel and in the years since we occasionally had stanffs between -- where they had standoffs between militias and government, never ags there been federal agents troublingly -- struggling and saying we did our best and now we're coming in hell or high water. there has been more restraint. the problem is that fbi and a couple ways directly after mount carmel tried to hide to some of the mistakes that were made. they were caught. skeptical people can say, with some justification, if they lied about that, maybe they are lying about everything. the seeds of mistrust were sown and we have to understand why things happened. not just what happened, but why and how to get past this ongoing

belief that was just big government going out to stop innocent citizens. that was not the case. host: alan in tennessee. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm not here to defendant david koresh but i will defend the truth. the first thing he keep saying over and over that automatic weapons were found at the compound and david koresh was stockpiling. if you are a gun dealer, your stock -- your stockpile is called your inventory and the defense was never allowed to have the experts present -- examining the guns found their. when it came time to examine them to make sure they were automatic weapons, no one was allowed to examine them. the fbi lied to a federal judge to get military equipment there.

the fbi lied to a federal judge to get military equipment. there are no drugs on the compound -- where no drugs on the compound. there are no assertions that there were drugs there. the fbi lied because they needed better equipment. the other thing is, who shot first? the key piece of budget -- evidence to address that is the front dooro the compound. it was stolen. j stole the most important piece of evidence to determine who shot first. host: let's get a response. guest: there are a whole lot wrong with what al said because it is fueled by personal interests. an arsenal does not necessarily mean illegal weapons.

it is not meet all of them were. when you see the fbi lied to get tanks -- said the fbi lied to get tanks, you are incorrect. the atf incorrectly claimed there was a drug lab at mount carmel and they use this to get permission to use national guard helicopters as part of the initial operation. they were wrong about that. it has been proven since and you're right it was not the fbi lying to get tanks. drawing to make an assumption like that -- if you're going to make an exception -- an assumption like that, identify the correct agency that did it. host: he also talked about the fbi stilling the front door? guest: there were a door and parts of mount carmel roof where there could have been evident of whom was firing in and out. there was a terrible, conflict

and a lot was burned and loss. it is also true in a terrible fbi misjudgment that these moderate remains of mount carmel was bulldozed, part of the door it was thought to have been saved, when the child came up, the surviving branch davidians, it was not there and that look suspicious we do not know what happened. we also do not know it was the fbi or the doj that stole something like that anymore then we can tell for sure who fired those first shots. what we are hearing from people like the gentleman from tennessee is frustration that is festered for 30 years. as investors, -- as it festers,

the suspicions grow. that is why it is important to take a look. things people say they believe is fact turns out to be true. fbi aligned -- fbi lying about a drug lab to get tanks do not happen at all and some are convinced it did. how do you change your mind 30 years after the fact? that is the hard part. host: regarding who and pers, take a look at this segment from c-span book tv -- regarding who fired first, take a look at this segment from c-span tv. a survivor of the branch of the end compound and he talks about the initial rate. [video clip] >> atf claims it was an ambush and they were outgunned. if we were a group of close" cultus i want to kill federal authorities and we had fully

automatic weapons and machine guns and we had 45 minutes where he knew they were coming and we are laying in wait for them, i am here to tell you, unless we are terrible shots, not one of those agents when i walked out of the cattle trailer. there was no plan. they just who died died 20 minutes in the gunbattle. we have videotape of agent stand behind cars, standing up, shooting in the second story of the building for all the kids are like it is a set of a rambo movie and yet they have been ambushed, they were outgunned. this story from day one never made any sense. host: that was david the author of a book called a place called waco, a survivor story. he was jailed after the seizure but really soon after. you can watch temple event at c-span.org.

let's take a call from waco, texas. james, good morning. caller: come morning -- good morning. it is known the sheriff at the time had a pretty good relationship with david koresh and he will uthere and check onim and he knew him. he was unaware that the fbi was even reading at the time and a lot of people say if they wanted him, they could've called the sheriff and he could've had david koresh come in. i wanted to know if the gentleman knows anything about that. guest: i do. you are absolutely right. jack, the clinton county sheriff could have been the hero of the whole situation if given the opportunity. the sheriff department initially called in atf to consult when a

delivery driver had reported to them a package that he had tried to deliver to mount carmel that are broken open and direct gunpowder and other suspicious articles in it the sheriff department caught in atf to consult and ultimately thought they were working with atf to plan something to act on it. sheriff says later he has passed away now, i did not talk to him personally but i did talk to other journalists he talked to and trusted in the aftermath of waco. he felt that atf after a certain amount of time did not consult with the sheriff's department any longer about their plans and said to quite a few people, he had a good relationship with david koresh when he would've suggested if asked to walk up to

the front door and knocked and said hey, david, there is a problem here. some agents need to talk to you. can you come to my office? he thought david koresh would have come. instead atf launched its ill begotten raid and not the sheriff felt frustrated and he was also frustrated by the reaction of many people seeing government conspiracy and the violent reactions that were in repayment for waco. his exact quote and i believe arms correct in this -- his exact quote was people believe people say waco is the reason they are doing these things but i think it is the excuse they used to do what they want to do anyway. i wish atf had consulted him more. host: we have a tweet from lisa

says, was not there an undercover atf agent inside the branch davidian compound for several weeks before the siege? why did atf not follow his recommendations and not raid mount carmel? guest: that is the crux of why this has happened in one critical way. atf had tried to place eight agents undercover as guarantor property across the street from mount carmel supposedly to keep a 24/7 check on everything the branch davidians were doing and to get a sense of when david koresh might leave the compound area so he could be arrested by himself without any other involved. the problem was the undercover agents were spectacularly incompetent. there is no video record like the one they are supposed to keep because they cannot figure out how to use the cameras. one of these undercover agents,

robert rodriguez, who gave his name to branch davidians as gonzales, went over to mount carmel. he got to talk to a lot of the davidian's including david koresh and was invited to some of their bible studies. our drink is -- rodriguez was aware of the morning of february 28 1993 that branch davidians had learned atf raid was imminent. he was in mount carmel when david koresh was notified that the atf was coming. and even though david koresh had relies rodriguez was an undercover agent he had not acknowledged it, but he knew it. he allowed rodriguez to leave the compound and rodriguez contacted the agent who was second in command of the operation about to take place,

chuck sarah been, and told him, they know we are coming. rodriguez wanted the raid called off. chuck thought that the guns of the branch davidians were in a locked storeroom and ordered the raid to go ahead anyway, but the guns were already in everyone's room and atf ran into a buzz saw. that mistake was horrendous. he was called -- he was found guilty of trying to cover it up and he was originally dismissed for atf or that. the labor board order him reinstated and he was sent to a desk job. in saying there -- there is no conspiracy is not to say curtis

decisions were made -- there are no horrendous decisions made. chuck who decided to ignore what robert rodriguez told him deserve an awful lot of disk credit for what happened. host: ron in pennsylvania. caller: david koresh was another jim jones. religious heckler -- religious hhitler. tim mcveigh also spawned other hate groups. we have over 783 hate groups in this country. that's what we should be worried about not people coming across the border but the head groups spawned by people like david koresh and jim jones and i would

like to say you also have somebody come on here your program and get the truth out so we can all hear both sides of the story. host: he talked about the relationship between hate groups and militias. we have a question from twitter who says, waco, was of engagement. -- rules of engagement. what does the gas think about that documentary? guest: i try not to comment on other people's work in that everybody can form opinions based on the fact they believe them. for was of engagement i'm not familiar enough with all of it. to speak with any great authority on it. host: also a question from steve on twitter who says, i never understood why a fire truck was

not on-site. law enforcement was out there for a week. did anybody not think there might be a fire? guest: that is an excellent question and the branch davidians was shuttering inside mount carmel knew they were in a fire trap. the building was made from scrap. there is no electricity. the fbi had cut that off. it was still cold in the heat inside mount carmel was provided by lanterns that had to use fuel and a fire to get going. a fire was always possible. on the day of the final conflict -- consecration, april 19, 13, once the blaze broke out, this awful fire, it is in place and in our memories -- elazoned in

our memories. the fbi held the fire trucks back an additional 15 minutes because they were afraid some of those lives in mount carmel had to automatic weapons and might still be shooting. there would not let the fire personnel get closer. that meant the fire had to burn itself out in a did it with all the people inside except nine survivors it would've been a great idea to have fire trucks ready at any time but that did not happen. we are talking about errors in judgment. host: robert in daytona beach, florida. hi. caller: hello, c-span. it boils down to one simple fact , you had the place surrounded, wait them out.

a month, six months, a year. we are dealing with that many woman, children, you do not assault the building, ever for any reason. the people that did assault that building and all those people died, i blame them and i will always blame them. host: jeff , a reaction? couldn't they have waited it out? guest: of course. they should have waited it out. there is no argument about that. one thing that i think needs to be said and i say this, first, i want to clarify, i haven't divided -- i have interviewed surviving branch davidians, but the fact of the matter is there were three groups basically who came in the conflict and that is

when waco happened. atf, fbi, branch davidians. for the two government agencies, atf and fbi, the best possible result for them, the result that they wanted, even though they did things that were against it, was for everyone to come out a live. no one have a scratch, another drop of blood be shed. the fact they found a self as situation was original intent. the only group where death was a part of the agenda the branch davidians believed that the lamb and his followers had to die to fulfill the prophecies and revelations so they could be translated back by god to lead a final fight against babylon.

the only ones that expected this and looked at it as a reward was the branch davidians. host: congress reopened investigations into waco in 1995. here's a portion from the congressional hearings of atf director john. he responds to those concerns about gun rights in america. [video clip] >> make no mistake, i take all criticism of atf to hard. if criticism is fair, i will move to correct the problem. if criticism is unfair or unfounded, i would defend our bureau with equal vigor. atf is no threat to private ownership of firearms. the law-abiding citizens have no reason to question our agenda. in the area of firearms, our

mission is simple, to combat gun violence. the more successful we are in keeping guns away from criminals and prosecuting those who use guns in crime, the less impotence there is for more gun control. atf is a neutral regulator. they are neither pro-gun or anti-gun. the bureau is tasked equitably enforcing the law passed by congress, and permitting regulations, and collecting taxes. there are many who do not trust our motives. the perception we pose a threat to the general firearm on the ship could lead to actions by this body and others as have occurred in the past that would cripple our crime-fighting efforts. i strongly believe only the criminal will benefit from weakening of atf. state and local law enforcement

will lose. the victims of gun violence will lose. given those interested in less gun control will lose. host: that was the then director of atf. what is your reaction to that? guest: the best response to that would be something i heard from one of the over two dozen agents who were interviewed in the mount carmel initial operation. this fellow bill buford said atf is always painted as anti-gun and the nra has tried to make atf is punching bag for decades. buford pointed out it's correct to say, almost every atf agent involved in waco was a gun owner, a hunter. atf agents are pro-gun ownership, but legal gun

ownership. the thing that always gets loss mostly because people do not want to think about it is that illegal guns were being constructed and cash aid -- cached at mount carmel. branch davidians were breaking the law and atf for all of its ponderings and fbi afterwards for all of their blunderings for the desk that did not have to happen and yet law was being broken and the agencies of the government who are post to enforce those laws were acting as they were supposed to, at least initially. host: rob in kansas. hi. caller: good morning. i hope you mentioned in your book that david koresh was a pedophile, they're emancipating

girls as young as 11 years of age to say they're going to be in the light which means they are allowed to marry david koresh, have sex with him or whatever. anybody who thinks he was a hero, he was a cultist who was a pedophile. that is a fact. i hope you mentioned that in your book. that takes every conspiracy a way of what we are talking about. those who want to defend him how to defend his actions on that account as well. this whole thing came on the hills of the jamestown tragedy where a senator was killed. 900 people died in jamestown. 1000 terrible thing -- that was a terrible thing. timothy mcveigh killed and philip the federal building -- and blew up the fer building and people jtied his actions like, waco happened so he was justified.

was osama bin laden justified? as far as 51 days he was given, i wish george floyd had 51 minutes timeout before he lost his life. he was given for the uptime -- 20 uptime and the government is current in the action it took. guest: you are correct about david koresh is a pedophile. during my research i interviewed dichter goering, defense lawyer in texas, engaged and he told me he was certain he would've gotten david koresh off on any charges involving the death of the atf agents that he believed he could have had a jury in waco believe that these atf agents coming up with their guns that the branch davidians had a right

to take their weapons and shoot at them if they felt threatened. then i asked, if you got him off that charge, what about the other charges they're going to come against him, particularly the fact that he committed statutory rape on girls as young as 10? he shook his head and smiled ruefully and said someone else would've had to defend him on those charges. you're correct in these things about david koresh. some of his followers to this day believe even in this, david koresh was only doing what god told him to do. as far as the other things you said, there have been tragedies, a lot of them, almost all of them unnecessary. waco seems to have the longest tail in that from oklahoma city to the capitol assault a couple of years ago that people are using it as a reason to do the

things they wanted to do anyway. it is important to understand the things that happened. not trying to avoid blaming people who deserve blame making sure this is not built into a terrible thing and never was. host: larry in arizona. you are on the air. caller: yes. i witnessed a whole episode from beginning to end and from the very beginning i was horrified by what i was seeing, but the end, the very end of this whole operation by the atf when it was all said and done and the place had been burnt to the ground and everybody in it was dead, they ran their tracks and their tanks back and forth across the ashes

and then they raised an atf like, a blue flag with white lettering, in the front of agree on that. what does it say about their intentions and their mentality of that whole operation? to destroy a crime scene, guest: here's the thing, someone got the wrong agency or blaming the wrong agency for something should not have happened. atf was only involved in waco on the first day every 28. -- february 28 and then after that the fbi took over. we talk about atf running is tanks, atf was not involved then. that was the fbi and the army. in terms of raising a flag, atf like on the flagpole, during the

siege there was branch davidian banner raised on a flagpole. there was someone, -- there was someone, not atf, ran up the atf flag in memory of the agents who had died there. that is in questionable taste for some and others recognizing their other victims, other deaths involved beyond the bravidians. you cannot blame atf made by the decision to not things down immediately after the fire because atf was not running things anymore. it was the fbi. host: in 1999, 6 years later, former senator appointed as special counsel by janet reno.

what was behind that decision? guest: it had come out that the fbi had not been candid about the fact on earlier occasions on the final day combustible military rows had been use to fire gas. when attorney general reno had been promised by the fbi that would not happen. there was a growing suspicion that these combustible rounds started the fire. they were fired around 6:00 a.m. in the fire did not start until noon. there is also the question of whether a couple of the atf agents involved, including chuck sarabyn had tried to alter documents showing why they had done what they did. there are the suspicions and so senator danford was tasked going in and investigate. he did but it is also true he

made preliminary statements before the investigation was complete -- concluded that the fbi was not at fault for anything. a lot of people got the sense that this was a government cover up which is more conspiracy. by 1999, all the suspicions aroused, but things still were not investigated completely. government officials did not want to find things that reflected badly. people who do not trust the government did not want to accept the fact that may the government had not had a step-by-step elaborate plan to bring about these awful consequences. it has been a mess ever since. that is why it is time to finally stop shouting and stop accusing and look at the actual facts. they are there if you want to look at them.

host: dennis in denver, colorado. hi. caller: good morning. david koresh regularly went to waco texas to do things. once every 10 days, everybody knew that. they could have arrested him then. it would not have have to write that compound. that tear gas they put in the compound there they knew that shut off the electricity, everything -- there were candles everywhere, open flames. they knew there's going to be a fire. 40 miles went that day. i watched that think happened. it was unbelievable.

they could have delete -- arrested david koresh anytime they wanted to. they wanted to show how tough atf and fbi. guest: he is right. david koresh did occasionally go into town and could have been arrested away from mount carmel. atf undercover house bungled keeping track of david koresh and they were the ones that support it is their superiors he no longer left the compound. atf as it did in other instances leading to this tragedy simply had been -- bad information and accepted it as fact. in terms of the fbi knowing there's going to be a fire, they should have taking more consideration than they did. the guy should have been asserted gradually over four days not in less than six hours

which meant because of it could accumulate and become more combustible. these things happened. there is no excuse they happened. we cannot read more into it then there was. host: jeff guinn author of "waco: david koresh, the branch davidians, and a legacy of rage" thank you for joining us today.

good evening. we are honored to introduce the chair of the national endowment for the humanities, shelly lowe shelly lowe. good evening. he had