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captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2008 captioning performed by vitac there are these briti britishtrading posts. and they're going to be involved in that story when we discuss that document. i want you to get a feel for those. and basically, have a sense of new mexico as a kind of salient moving up in the southwestern north america. a colony really surrounded by a lot of areas not in any way conformed by the spanish. that will help form our discussion when we get into that document. now let's talk a little bit about why the spanish presence is somewhat halting. if you look at the spanish

empire as a whole, what do you figure is your top priority as an emperial official in somewhere like madrid or mexico city or lima? protect the mines. exactly, in places like mexico and peru. are there any lucrative mines? later on, yes. if you think about the spanish empire as a whole, it extends to the southern portions of south america, includes peru, bolivia, chile, south america. this fringe, new mexico and texas, is a long way from the centers of the spanish empire and tends not to be the priority. in that sense it's not that surprising that it takes a while for the spanish to begin launching these forrays into the plains. there's other ways the spanish can allocate their resources. if you recall the coronado exped

dition, one we didn't talk about that much in the early 1600s. do you recall how those went? not great. so the spanish went out there and discovered thousands of formidable plains undians who weren't necessarily going to welcome the spanish. the spanish found the plains were metered reward and significant danger. that's one factor that held spanish expansion back until they started getting worried about the french. the texas just gets going in the early decades of the 18th century, in the early decades of the 1700s. what do you think is the impetus for the expansion of spanish missions. what's happening east of texas that might inspire -- yeah? >> [ inaudible ]. >> that's exactly it. the french begin a colony in

louisiana in 1699. some french exploration down the mississippi even before 1699. the spanish are nervous about the presence of these french guys, the presence of a french colony that may be a threat to mexico and new mexico. and that is the primary reason. the spanish expansion into texas is generally a few missions with a small number of soldiers to go with them. good date to remember is the founding of san antonio in 1718. it's a site that, well, what do the spanish generally look for before they found a mission or ce settlement of some kind? >> established settlement already. >> that's exactly what they mind. san antonio is already a place with irrigated fields. so the spanish in keeping with their pattern are trying to move

into an area that seems compatible with their style of life and also to grow food. and the open again is also the spanish are always looking for settled agricultural uindians. they think they are most compatible to christianization. it's easier to establish a church that can work with them. in fact, the way the spanish missions in texas work, they're not a great success. generally speaking it's only the most desperate indians who go there. who don't have a choice about -- they go to the missions for lack of anything better. population doesn't really increase. the idea of what would bring texas indians to spanish missions, what might make them appealing sites -- go ahead. >> [ inaudible ]. >> yeah. this is a big factor.

one, the reasons we'll talk about, texas is a dangerous place in the 1700s. and these spanish missions they establish with them are one potential place of refuge. there's fortifications, spanish soldiers with guns, alliance with the spanish empire. indians are just looking for a place they can take refuge in the 18th century. another way to think about this, it's something that historians have talked about is that for a lot of indians who went to these texas missions, they didn't see it as that major a step or change in the way they were living. there was that kind of seasoned migration of indian groups from one place to another. maybe they'd be getting nuts from one particular globe of trees, moving inland. texas indians viewed the spanish missions as another stop in their seasonal migrations. there would be food, a place of

refuge. it viewed them as an adaptation of their lifestyle rath ir than a total change in it. you do get some of these spanish missions. not though a great success. they don't generate a lot of wealth. they don't get a lot of people. highly vulnerable to indian raids. they are pretty precarious. quite vulnerable to indians in that area. one way you can get a sense of that vulnerability is to look at something we can call the san saba fiasco which is a spanish effort to move north well beyond san antonio. so at the request of some local apachendians in 1757 they build a mission at san saba in 1757. spanish mission, 1757.

in 1758, one year later, a group of indians, an alliance of comanche and wichita indians, and groups from the north annihilate the san saba mission. so seeing that that area, viewing that as unacceptable, the spanish try to pursue the ka manch comanches and their allies north. they find a camp with a stockade and ditch. it's flying a french flag. and the spanish who attacked this fortification claim there's all kinds of guns and ammunition and a french presence there. they claim there are people carrying french flags and wearing french uniforms. the spanish are repelled with about 52 people killed or wounded. the key point is the weakness of

the span nicish in texas. they have mobile striking power on horses, they can also build fortifications that can repel a they don't have a clear military advantage in places like texas. that helps explain why there's a spanish movement to texas and why it's relatively limited. mexico is also an interesting case. the other key spanish salient in north america at this time of our course. we'll talk about california on wednesday. new mexico remains as you see from that map, similar to what it's been throughout the course. it doesn't have a massive expansion in the 1700s. new mexico as was the case in the 17th century, is never a big revenue generator for the spanish empire. french in places like louisiana are convinced it is, but new mexico is a poor frontier colony at the end of a long supply route. it never finds the silver mines,

for example, the spanish were hoping for. it's a poor saliaent up in the north. in 1765, only about 10,000 people of spanish descent in pueblo, new mexico. it's relatively small and poor in terms of population. isolated at the end of a long supply route and doesn't have any big earning commodity. there's some trade idea how new mexico as a colony would make money and what its economic base would be. yeah? >> [ inaudible ]. >> there's some production of sort of local crops, but that's not a great export commodity. a small fur trade, but not especially lucrative. there's a slave trade in new mexico sending undian slaves taken in raids around new mexico down into mexico itself. and so in that sense from the sort of brutal logic of an early modern colony, the fact new

mexico was up there in the middle of undians not part of the spanish line system does mean there's more indian groups they can raid for slaves. that is part of new mexico's economy. the biggest problem new mexico has in addition to the fact that economically it's relatively meager is, what would you guess is the biggest problem new mexico has, just looking at that map. yeah? >> [ inaudible ]. >> it's a longer way from the center and all that goes with it like help. if it's a long way from the centers of spanish power, what is it very close to? >> lots of very angry indians. >> that's right. there's a lot of indian peoples surrounding new mexico who become more and more formidable as the 1700s go on. new mexico has to worry about the uts to the north and comanches to the west and apaches who are all over the

place and the navajos to the northwest. there's a lot of people. a lot of indian groups that the governor of new mexico has to be concerned about. new mexico is a highly vulnerable colony. a little sorry rond urrounded. and some of the indians surrounding it are carrying french weapons. one big difference between the spanish colonies in new mexico and texas and the french colonies in places like louisiana is the spanish discourage a trade in guns. the french encourage a trade in guns with western indians which makes the spanish very nervous. their potential enemies are much better armed. let's talk now about -- let's switch from the spanish colonies and talk about these indians out on the plains themselves. we've already had little hints of a very interesting story that's going on. let's first go back in time a little bit and talk about some of the developments that are

going to lead up to what happened to what we see in the 1700s. the first thing to talk about is that when we're talking about the sven 01700s, there are a lo indian communities who are growing crops. you have big towns sor s surrouy fields growing things like corn. this development starts about 1700 a.d. we'll go back, prehistory of the course. what you see is very gradually the sort of movement of the growing of corn, moving up mississippi and moving west along the tributaries to the point where a river like missouri by the 1700s has these significant villages growing a lot of corn around them. they are surrounded by corn fields. so the pawnees are another example of these communities.

and what characterized -- what tends to happen to communities when they can grow a lot of food. thanksgiving is just the perfect preparation for this. they are very sluggish. can't move quickly, and their population grows. one thing you get is the pawnee and other towns of people like this are often really big. hundreds or even thousands of people living in these fortified substantial villages or towns along the tributaries of the mississippi and missouri. it's a new style of life at least from what had been there before this -- before 700. these villages aren't just growing corn. they're alsohunting buffalo. they are often making stuff, involved in handicraft and basic production. they start getting horses. the spanish see some of these

and the spanish and french continue to see them. these big towns out on the plains. that's one big sort of feature of the plains at this time. there's another big feature of the plains. this is what makes the plains an exciting and dramatic place in the 1700s. let's go back to youru conni ic image of the north american indian, a guy on a horse. when does that start? when the spanish arrive, french arrive and europeans arrive, are there horses in north america? there are not. shortly thereafter there are horses. there used to be a lot of horses but they went extinct. the spanush bring horses with them. what would happen, the spanish movement to new mexico. horses give them a military advantage over their neighbors. what would happen to some of those horses in the normal run of events?

>> [ inaudible ]. >> they'll escape. horses can move. that's part of their appeal. they can be stolen was another possibility. but even before, even by the middle of the 17th century, some horses are getting away from the spanish and into the possession of some of those indian people around new mexico. >> so that's one thing that happens. and then there's that other o happens. that pueblo revolt of 1680 when the spanish get driven out of mexico. ngss to the spanish being temporarily driven out, lots of control in 1680 and a dispersing into the regions out new mexico. for a few moments, think of yourself as a horse. it's always constructive. all right. so you get away from the

spanish. you're feeling good. maybe you cross that range of mou mountains and take a look over the plains. what do you think? this is my lucky day, okay, because i just found one of the best places in the world to be a horse. what is there on the plains? lots and lots of grass and not lots of horses. there are those buffalo things but you can deal with them. when the horses get away from new mexico, especially those who get on to the plains. this is a great place to be a horse and horses multiply quickly on the plains. that's the horse side of the story. there's this other side of the story as well. if you are one of these indian groups around new mexico, north of new mexico, maybe moving on to the plains yourself and suddenly you see these big animals. you have some knowledge they can

be domesticated and with a little experimentation you pick up the horse for yourself. you have people who for millennials had hunted, lived on foot and now have one of the more formidable creatures of the modern world. if you want a good example from people who profit from the spanish horses, the comanches are one. they are rerelated to the shishonees. they move down into the plains at a time when horses are already there. the comanches relatively quickly adopt horses for themselves and make it a critical part of their lifestyle. they essentially become a mounted people. what's the advantage of being a mounted people on the plains. what can you do if you have horses? >> [ inaudible ]. >> you can hunt buffalo.

it's much easier to hunt buffalo when you have horses. what are some of the benefits of hunting buffalo? >> [ inaudible ]. >> absolutely. >> [ inaudible ]. >> yep, absolutely. a great source of protein and other items to sell to other people. you can sell buffalo hydes when you go to trade fairs. horses give people something they can hunt at a greater distance more efficiently and take advantage of the buffaloes of the plains who when the horses got there, the buffalo also said this is a great place to be a buffalo. so that's one thing. now that's nice, okay. you can hunt buffalo. that's good. what else can you do with your horses? yeah. >> [ inaudible ]. >> yeah, and that's kind of neutral language. you can expand your control.

what would that expansion of control feel like? you could get on your horse and maybe get a lance or trade with a gun and move quickly and you have a big military advantage over the folks you've had a quarrel with. one group moves over into west texas. one group hangs on the plains. these comanches are now, and there are other groups like this, are now militarily a formidable group. even without rifles. when they get guns from the french. they can take what they want and then disappear before the spanish can get them. they can choose the point to attack. they can attack the apache settlements. the apaches had been the

dominant group in that area. after the comanches get horses the apaches are no longer the dominant group. they disperse off the southern plains. some look for refuge with the spanish missions in texas. but they are driven away essentially by the comanches who become this dominant horse on the southern plains over the course of the 1700s. it's important to know that they can raid but that trading pont is important as well. in some years the comanches or groups like them will show up at a trade fair and it will be peaceful. they'll exchange buffalo items. other years they'll raid the spanish. it depends on a variety of factors. there's altercation between

violent rinteractions and rathe peaceful interactions. one of the great ironies, it extends to a number of different plains peoples over the course of the 1700s. as the horse moves north, different peoples adopt horses. the sioux will eventually adopt horses. you get a lot of tumult on the plains. some grops profit from horses. some groups are terrified by groups that have horses. you can see some of the consequences of people beginning to move easily across the plains and raid one another. one of the great ironies of this. who are the baddest people in history? >> [ inaudible ].

>> i think they are -- you get into the 20th century, there's a lot of competition. before the 20 century, i think genghis khan you could argue. before that, artilla and the hon huns. i mean no quarrel with mongolia. i think if you took a poll, they'd come up. what characterizes some of the baddest -- yes. >> [ inaudible ]. >> absolutely. so one of the great continuities of eurasian history is they get horses and that enables them to be these formidable mounted people. they don't have guns but these compound bows. 12 horses at a time to ride at a sprint and then shift horses.

you'll see this alterination between the nomads and the settled peoples who always have to deal with this presence to the north. any idea when the step nomads are done as a feature of eurasian history? basically -- yeah, go ahead. >> [ inaudible ]. >> even earlier, actually. it's really the 18th century where china launches this expansion out to the west and destroys the major step empires out there in the west. this goes well beyond our course. this feature of eurasian history ends. they are no longer worried about step nomads. what is ironic is that exactly the moment that a certain kind of lifestyle, certain kind of military technology or tactics, exactly the moment it's over, finished, antiquated in eurasia,

it suddenly appears on the plains of north america. there's this balancing mechanism in the world where horses crop up and they have their heyday in north america. should we take a break? pardon me? >> [ inaudible ]. >> i didn't think about that. i didn't think about that. let me look at a few more points. where do the french fit into this whole story? the french are trying to expand from louisiana and canada. they have a number of objecti objectives. finishing up the discussion of the spread of the horse s on to the plains. people rising and falling very quickly. the shishon indians with the

bows everyone was so frightened of. when lewis & clark go west, the shishonees are hiding in the rockies trying to survive. people with a brief moment of dominance on the plains, it's often brief. the acquisition of horses and rifles. it's going to be brief. that's going to lead into the 19th century. the other factor, what i talked about how -- if you are a horse and you imagine you go out in the mountains and plains and say this is totally excellent, assuming there's two horses, what happens relatively quickly after the horses get on to the plains and start eating grass? and then indian groups breeding horses. you have a lot of horses on the plains. already a lot of buffaloes on

the plains. they seem to have no apparent end. they do have an end and so what happens, and also the climate is highly unstable. wet periods, dry periods, hot periods, cold periods. what happens when you have thousands of new -- yeah? >> [ inaudible ]. >> exactly. so certainly by the 19th century you have hints of an ecocrisis on the plains when there's too many grass eating animals out there. there's only so many animals the plains can sustain. it just gives you a sense of introducing something like the horse into a new environment, the consequences are endless. ecologically, militarily, culturally. it's a big change in many ways. let's briefly talk about the french and then go for discussion. the french are expanding west from louisiana and canada.

it's a little different than what you saw in the 17th century. there are still missionaries involved but a bit less of an emphasis. the furs and human beings as well. emphasis on missionary, conversion of indians. the french are quite happy to trade guns. that does give them an advantage. what do you figure the french are looking for as they go west into north america? why would they bother to go at all? yeah. >> &rpacific. >> they're stid2rcq-ç hopingi)se

the pacific. they're also hoping for new trading partners. they've heard rumors there may be elaborate civilizations on the pacific coast. from what they've heard from second and third and fourth hand indian accounts, they think japan or china may have outposts. maybe there's some kind of indian civil zagizationciviliza. what might give rise to that koo kind of places in stories farther to the east. anybody from british columbia or washington state? you do have in the northwest, we'll talk about this, big

sophisticated indian towns in the pacific northwest with monument ol architecture, big ocean going canoes, fantastic sculpture, living in really fantastic wealth. you just have to dip your hand in the water and you find salmon. you are talking about information traveling hundreds and hundreds of miles could set up stories of sophisticated indian peoples. so the french are very curious. they've heard there may be europeans somewhere in the west. spanish somewhere, russian some place else. they're trying to figure this out. the french are moving to the west. the big limitations on the french, there's not a lot of them. they are beyond the range of french power. these are very small powers. as we know, what do the french do to compensate for the fact there aren't that many of them?

>> [ inaudible ]. >> exact lie. they try to make friends and become the allies of those indian groups. what's the same problem? so in the 17th century, the french allied themselves with different indian groups and that makes them enemies of -- >> the iroquois. >> they align with different groups on the plains. they're trying to work with all these groups. who do they antagonize? the sioux. bad call. it's the french in certain ways are along the least lucky. the enemies they make are formidable enemies. and that's one thing, as they're moving out, one of his sons. killed by a sioux war party as part of this exploration. even as the sioux make certain allies they also antagonize other groups. if we wanted to summarize the

talkaway ponts, the first thing is regional dynamism. the plains are not static in the 1700s. all kinds of changes are going on. long-term dynamism, corn-based agriculture. the horse coming out on to the plains in the late 17th and 18th century. this is a very different place. regional dynamism. a second point is the presence of crop-growing peoples which is different than your iconic image of the plains s indians. look at how many of these kinds of indian people we've seen. the folks desoto met, coronado met. different groups in arizona. the iroquois. we're seeing these groups of indians who are different from the classic stereotupe. it's worth noticing how many examples we're talking about.

and the third point is the formation. this is a crucial development and it does set the stage for a lot of what you see in the 19th century. that's enough of me talking. now i'm going to make you guys perspire. shift a little bit to discussion and we'll see how much fun you had over thanksgiving. these documents were very short. no extra essays. these should be a pleasure. even if not, i can guide us through because these i quite enjoy. we want to start with the french or new mexico? the french it is. all right then. so we've got this account. in the fall and early wenter of 1738 he's going out to visit some villages on the upper missouri. same villages that would be

visited more than half a century later by the lewis and clark expedition. if laverendrie is trying to -- what kind of relationship would he like to establish? what kind of relationship do the french always want to establish? >> [ inaudible ]. >> some kind of trading alliance. go ahead and raise your hand before answering a question. that will give time for the microphone to move toward you. it's difficult because we're fast paced. it has difficulty keeping up with the rapidity of our thought. so some kind of -- you know, some kind of trading relationship and alliance. so if you are going to establish a french trading relationship,

if you want them to trade with the french, who do you not want groups like the mandant to trade with? it's the great white north, up where canada is right now? so remember that map i showed you way back at the beginning of class and i showed you -- let me just go over to this map. so you have this big inland sea called hudson bay. and on the edges of hudson bay the british establish these little trading posts. and the british, what they try to do is encourage indians from england to come to these posts along the edge and give them what? what logically in the age

before -- what's the great benefit of northern canada? absolutely. they establish these posts and want these interior undians to do all the work of getting the furs, making this long trip and just giving the furze furs to those on hudson bay. how does this make you feel? >> [ inaudible ]. >> outmaneuvered, okay. so for example, page 295, in the right-hand column, he talks about, i got the two chiefs to come to my tent. i know they went every year to the post. so what's the problem? these indians trading with

british and you don't want that. if you are leverendri owe, what do you do to draw these western indians, what can you do to draw them away from the english? >> give them better gifts? >> it's true. >> and it's better gifts and gifts. so that's one interesting aspect of this. the french are trying to establish a trading relationship by giving stuff away. there's a high initial investment of giving gifts. so what else can -- if the british rely on just sitting in these little forts on hudson bay, what can the french do? yeah. >> they actually go out to the indian forts and communeicate directly. >> that's exactly what they do.

the french begin moving west. they go into northern canada. the french are moving out into the western interior of north america and trying to get to indians. they are going to the trading partners rather than waiting for them to go to hudson bay. they are working a lot harder. when are the -- let's see. are the western indians without a negotiating position, without leverage? what do they say? we'd love to have a trading relationship with you, if -- for example, recent years the french abandon us, i did send to hudson bay. as long as the frenchman remains in our lands, we promise not to go elsewhere. what's the up shot of that?

yeah. >> -- just move from point a to point b. >> they can have demands on the french. they want a consistent relationship. you can't just come and go. you have to come and stay. they are asking for an ongoing relationship that will be equal in value or predictability. you can see they are moving the french. y we'd love to be your friends. here's what we expect from you. a kind of negotiation going on. let's see. there's on 296 as we're going down, they say we'll keep quite as he desires and let the sioux do the same. our heart is still sore on account of your son. so part of this french effort and french expansion, this movement of these trading relationships, some french people don't come back. it's a dangerous operation.

all right. what -- let's see here. what makes it great to be a mandam or to visit the mandam? >> you have this impressive fortification and they're also expert traders. >> absolutely. you go to the mandan, you don't find a bunch of tents or a poultry settlement. you find a town with fortifications, with a moat. it sounds like something formidable to deal with. so it's sort of impressive physically. what is the basis for this town? what establishes its position on the northern plains? what does it have to offer? yeah. and you can figure.

so if some people live by hunting buffalo, for example, and other people spent a lot of time growing corn, what might be a basis of exchange? yes. >> buffalo for corn. >> that's one thing. you can imagine the exchange of agricultural products which we saw back in new mexico. if you have a nice town with nice houses and spend a lot of time in those houses in north dakota and south dakota, what can you do with your spare time in your rich agricultural village on the upper missouri with your buffalo hides you traded and hadnunted yourself. >> you can work with it. you can create clothing and other goods. >> absolutely. the mandan are also the manufacturing center. they make baskets, clothing, all

kinds of goods out of animal products and agricultural products which they can then trade with other northern plains people who are less sedentary and move around. the mandans seem to be quite good at that. that's one thing levandrie observes. you can trade. it's well fortified. are you happy to have people visit? i think so. it's nice to have people trade with you. may be establish a relationship with the french. when people do visit, when people show up at your village, what do they want to do with your corn? what are your obligations as a host? >> they need to feed them but they don't want them to eat it all. >> the roaming people from the

plains, when they show up as guests, they get to eat a lot of the corn. does this remind you of anything from way back in the course? >> his large group of texas indians and they were going to towns and eating the pueblo corn. >> the idea of folks moving around on the plains. europeans that serve as the center of attraction. that provides you an entry to an agricultural village where you can eat and that seems to be an agricultural factor. if the mandan are concerned the group is eating too much of their corn, what did they say? this will give you a sense of their play? >> the suh are coming to attack. >> on one hand the acidouan are

the butt of all the jokes. they are clearly worried about the su the villages are a trading center for the plains. all you have to do is say the sioux are over there, and your visitor will run away. what does this is a about the tenor of life on the plains? >> it's quite complex and there's different understandings between the cultural groups saying i want you to do this in return for this. a high level of organization that one might not expect. relationships, relationships that change regularly. there's a lot going on. you can see how for someone like leverandrie trying to figure out how this works. it's not so easy. and that's part of the

difficulties the french have when they get out into the northern plains is to understand these relationships, which are changing rapidly. so if the french are interested in finding europeans or what they'd call civilized people out in the west, do they find them when they get to the mandans? does he feel like, yeah, this is what i was looking for? he doesn't sound that excited. he's happy to meet the mandan but he'd heard rumors there was a european-like people on the northern plains and feels disappointed. what reports does he get?jvxñ do the mandan talk about any other groups on the plains who may be european style? page 301 in the left-hand column, talks about the panana and pananis.

built their lodges in the same way they did. you could not see the land on the other side. the water was not drinkable. among all the tribes, the word iron seems to be applied to all metals. you could not kill any of these men as they had iron armor. by killing a horse you could capture the man easily because he could not run. who are we talking about? probably. yeah, most likely. it's most likely an account of the spanish in new mexico which has made its way to the north or some mixing of categories. there are indians associated with new mexico who have spanish weaponry. pueblo indians and other groups adopting horses. but probably the root of this is the account of the spanish.

what does that tell you about information networks on the northern plains. everybody hides in the village and never talks. is movement restricted? new mexico is a long way from south dakota and north dakota. so if information, if the mandan can talk about the spanush, that could suggest that information seems to be moving on the plains. what would facilitate the spread of information on the plains, possibly, in the 1700s? >> [ inaudible ]. >> yeah, conceivably horses are moving information more quickly. it's also possible people are terrified by horse peoples. it certainly raises the question that most people are moving things like information and trading goods longer distances. let's shift a little bit to new mexico governor. he's writing a report to his

successor saying if you want to be governor of new mexico, this is what you need to do. this flows from what we talked about earlier. what's the big problem if you are the governor of new mexico? what keeps you up at night? practically answers itself. yes. >> native revolts and -- >> there's a danger of pueblo revolts but also attacks from u indians outside the colony. what might make a revolt less likely in the 18th century than the 17th century? >> because they've already very brutally put one down so dissuade people from doing it again. >> and the fact that outside of new mexico there's all these indian groups as potentially dangerous to the pueblo indians as the spanish. they are surrounded by people

who are potntially trading partners and potentially dangers to the settlements. so let's get a sense of this. so what -- how do i put this. so who are some of the names, some of the groups of indians talked about? so for example on page 303 you have the barberous tribes of apaches, comanches, utes, one after another. so what -- let's just go into the utes. so when he talks about the settlements of new mexico on the north, which because of war with the utes had been destroyed. so is new mexico a stable colony? no.

there's certain areas. sort of northern parts of new mexico which are in danger of being essentially kind of wiped out. it's not just the comanches have horsed. they moved out of new mexico and have also adopted horses and had an alliance with the comanches. they can raid spanish and mexico. the conservation of the friendship of this and the rest of its allied tribes is one of the greatest consideration because of the favorable results which their trade and good relations bring to this proveness. what has he done? if you can't beat them -- >> [ inaudible ]. >> yeah, or ally with them. a group like the utes who are capable of ravaging northern parts of new mexico. the thing to do is establish an alliance with the utes so take the people who are raiding your

settlements and make them your friends so you can protect yourself. find allies among the people most dangerous to you. is the relationship example always one of hostility? you got to know the answer to this. it is not. sometimes there are these sort of trade fairs where groups like the comanches will come in and utes will come down from the mountains. if you're the governor of new mexico and you have hundreds of groups of indians coming together in these big trade fairs, what might you as a governor want to do to make sure this works out nicely? what's the danger when you bring together hundreds of people from different ethnic groups, many of whom are armed and they have horses and they're involved in

economic relationships where there's sometimes a danger that there will be a little trickery and fraud and deceit. remember what happened with some of the gifts? they had that big bag and what happened? somebody stole the bag of goodies. he's like santa claus losing the toy bag. what can happen when people bring lots of stuff to exchange? what's one danger? actually, what are multiple dangers? >> theft, violence, and fraud. >> exactly. business. it's all the things that happen today. there's a danger when you get all these people together you're going to have people stealing each other's stuff, people trying to cheat each other and getting very angry about it afterwards. you're going to have theft, fraud, what was the other one? violence. you're going to have people who didn't like each other last year who are suddenly staring at each other across a field outside of

santa fe. there's a danger of violence between all these groups. what do you do as the governor of new mexico to keep a lid on all this? you've got troops in santa fe. they're not huge but you have a presence. if you want to do a business deal today, what precedes the business deal today? >> wine and dine them, give them some gifts. >> exactly. you wine and dine, share a smoke together, which you don't do now. at the time you would smoke pipes together and establish that this is kind of a friendly relationship. you reassure one another. as governor of new mexico can you walk out and say, inferior barbarian savages, bow down before me. good strategy? very bad strategy.

what do you do instead? what would you do today? i'm glad to see you. how's the horse, the wives. you got to be polite and not condescending and not let on what they actually feel. you need to have good manners with people who are numerous and heavily armed. what's the danger if you see that the spanish are aligned with the utes, you have an occasional relationship with the comanches, what would be the end of new mexico? just think about it. you're surrounded by different indian nations. what would cause the end of new mexico? >> if they all allied together. >> exactly. you want to be on good terms with lots of these folks, you definitely don't want to be on bad terms with all of them. there's not that many spanish in new mexico.

the nightmare would be if all the surrounding indians simultaneously were hostile to new mexico. you can't defend yourself against that many people. you want to have trading fairs where it's profitable to act peacefully, but sometimes people are just -- they just won't listen to reason. what do you have to do then? the comanches, for example. he talks about you've got to chase the -- page 304. the tribe is equally pacific and maintains an attitude of good faith. i have observed with them the greatest equity and kindness and made them understand the authority of our arms and they were excessively arrogant from dominating the rest of the tribes. what do you got to do? >> attack them to show -- >> yeah. you got to be polite.

you don't want to look for trouble. you have to show from time to time that you are formidable. occasionally the spanish will be sort of called upon to go out and humble one of these indian nations. they think of the comanches as the most elevated in their sense of themselves in part because the comanches are dominating the area between new mexico and texas and they feel like the lords of the southern plains because they're kind of the lords of the southern plains. if you want to have peace with the utes, ideally you would like to keep things stable with the comanches. who would you like to concentrate your attention on? if you want to make peace with everybody except one group, who's the one group you want to get rid of your other enemies or stabilize the relationship your enemies so there's one group of people you can go after.

if you only knew five indian nations from your extensive watching of western movies when you were growing up which i know doesn't happen with your generation. yeah? yes, the apaches. they were on the southern plains and they've moved into areas south of new mexico into northern mexico. they are conducting extensive raid on spanish settlements. let's make peace with everybody else and go after these guys. let's attack the apaches and end these raid not just on new mexico but other spanish settlements in what is now northern mexico. what makes it so difficult to defend new mexico and the other spanish settlements? what's the strategic difficulty? sam? yeah, it's a big place. it's a large colony.

it's thinly settled so it's not especially densely populated. you've got a large area with a lot of outlying ranches and small villages and so forth. what's the great danger for a spanish ranch for example in the 1750s? >> the apaches could show up to your house, burn it down, do a little dance and leave long before anybody even realized what was happening. >> exactly. the great problem is there's no way -- the spanish can't keep a military force in every ranch in new mexico. they've got these disbursed settlements and they're highly vulnerable. the apaches can attack an outlying settlement and the spanish can't do that much about it. on 308 talking about the people of new mexico, because of their extreme poverty they are worthy

of compassion. their small houses which consist of a few horses, cattle and sheep are exposed to the attacks of the barbarians. it can be guarded by scouts continually and impede the enemy from getting access. the enemy never comes in large numbers but small parties to hide their trail and prevent their discovery. it talks about albuquerque later. the settlers wish to have a soldier for every cow and horse they pasture so they have nothing to worry about. i've tried to accustom the idea that each one should take care of the defense of his own hacienda. so what's the solution? >> you're on your own. >> so the solution is you got flying parties who try to guard the access routes to the settlements, mountain passes and

so forth. that doesn't always work. then the other thing is, well, good luck. just imagine hypothetically for some reason you're in mexico city and it comes into your mind, i need to immigrate, go someplace else, how about new mexico. doesn't seem like it would be that appealing if the basic message is, you can work this out on your own. so you see the dangers of new mexico. now i'm going to hand back the papers. tonight on american history tv, programs about the vietnam war. starting at 8:00 p.m., a south vietnamese perspective of the vietnam war. veterans of the south vietnamese government, army, and air force reflect on their war experience. at 9:25 p.m., rescue of the uss kirk with jan hermann, historian

and author of "the lucky few: the fall of saigon and the rescue mission of the uss kirk" which describes the ship's humanitarian mission and the later reunification of navy crew members and refugees. and at 10:30 p.m., the screaming eagles in vietnam. a u.s. army big picture film episode documenting the 101st airborne division from their arrival in vietnam in 1965 through january of 1967. that's tonight on american history tv on c-span3. today between 1:00 and 8:00 p.m. eastern here on c-span3, a look back at foreign policy and homeland security during the george w. bush administration. former administration officials, journalists, and critics discuss the response to the 9/11 attack and other issues at an event organized by