>> good evening and welcome to the indiana debate commissions 2024 primary debate for governor

broadcast live from the auditorium on the campus. this event is the final formal debate of the primary season the final opportunity to hear from the republicans vying to succeed governor eric holcomb who is barred by indiana's constitution from seeking a third consecutive term. of course the winner of the gubernatorial primary will advance to novembers general election. i am your moderator the host of public media indiana lawmakers program the states longest running public affairs show. this debate is made possible by the generosity of our major underwriters aarp indiana, the broadcasters association and the indiana state bar association as well as additional support from

the indiana coalition for open government, the indiana league of women voters of indiana, the hoosier state press association foundation and comcast. the debate the mission is dedicated to puttingng voters first. accordingly, we invited members of the public to submit questions about the issues of greatest concern to them. more than 120 people submitted nearly 200 questions and that input on the basis of the questions that i will pose this evening. none of the questions has been shared with the candidates or their campaign staff. the order of the candidates introductions anda positions on stage were determined by drawing. enough housekeeping. now without further delay, let's meet at the participants. brad a chambers of indianapolis founder and ceo of buckingham companies a real estate

investment firm and former head of the economic development corporation under governor holcomb. suzanne of evansville, the 52nd lieutenant governor and former state auditor, state representative and county commissioner. fort wayne founding partner of the developing company and private equity firm and former president of the indiana economic development corporation under governor mike pence. curtis hill, former indiana attorney general and former four term county prosecutor and jamie ritenour of indianapolis a former compliance officer, athletic director and executive secretary who is now a stay-at-home mother of five. and you will notice there are five lectors on stage instead of six as we hoped, the senator thought of course was also

seeking the republican nomination for governor was not able to attend this evening. he was called back to washington for an important vote on a foreign aid package, so he unfortunately couldn't join us this evening. the candidates have agreed to a set of rules that include the prohibition on props and prepared notes, this evening's debate will featureeb a mix of s or no questions answerable by a show of hands and a more traditional set of open-ended questions of variousus lengths. i will not hesitate to cut off candidates that fail to abide by the stated time limits and i will to get a step further i will try to nudge people back on path if they are addressing the question straight from the point of the question so i will do it with a smile on my face into kindness and my heart, but we will try to address the matters

at hand that voters care about most. now, we have dispensed with all of the housekeeping i think we need to do tonight. let's geto to the questions. the first round of questions will be open-ended and i will give you a time limit for each. the candidate that receives the first question will have one minute to answer that question and the other will have a shorter period of time that i will specify and you can use that to agree, disagree or add any other thoughts that you would like. according too the drawing, the first question will go to mr. chambers and he will have one minute to respond. in 2024 study by the forbes advisor ranked indiana the second best state in the nation of which to start a business citing the states low $100 registration fee, state funding for small business startups, survival rate, reasonable cost of living and high percentage of working age residents. but specifically what you do to

nudge us from number two to number one, and you have a minute. >> thanks for being here tonight. appreciateni the audience and ts opportunity to speak to voters. entrepreneurship is extremely important. i started a companypa from nothing, from zero. i know the journey and how difficult the journey is to start a business and keep the going.s i'm a career job creator and problem solver, so i'm pleased to see indiana is ranked number two for small and medium-size businesses and i started to do that as the secretary for the state of indiana working as an appointed position. we need to make sure more is available to innovators and entrepreneurs and lean into the technology sector. we formed a website called connect for high school students and for college students if they

want to learn about entrepreneurship. we need to start with educating our high schools about the a opportunity to work for yourself in this state. we have terrific entrepreneurs. eli lilly is one of them. -- >> we are out of time. the colonel would appreciate you ending on him. let's go then to each of you. you will have 30 seconds to again offer a response to much of the m same question how can e take an already strong economic set of circumstances and take it to the next level. >> where to be taken already strong state to the next level is very simple. we get government out of the way. cut regulations to make sure we allow entrepreneurs to move forward and we need to provide tax incentives to make sure the economy is strong and robust but it's a matter of making sure the government is limited in its capacitynm to stand in the way f businesses that is growing and

developing. >> very good. same question to you. is at the heart and soul of the indiana mainstream initiative. for 50 years we've ignored our small town and as we've begun to restore communities across the state with the help of local leaders in the private sector, this will lead to tremendous small business growth and opportunities. we've already seen this in every community we've begun to be story into this is why we are excited about the mainstream initiative and restoring small towns. >> i played a key role in turning indiana around. i want to continue that by eliminating the state income tax. not only will we put $2,000 back in the pockets butoo according o the federation of independent businesses, the income tax is the single most tax that could help if we eliminate a small business growth so that is what i wantt to do.

>> i was asked a similar question in an interview, how do you keep the good times rolling out of my answer was i've been on the ground at two and a half years and the hoosiers are not telling me the good times are rolling. over 100,000 jobs cannot be placed, small businesses looking for employees.ng when i say that every senior that graduates in the state of indiana should be doing an apprenticeship before they graduate, we want to make sure our seniors next generation are taken care of. that's not easy to do any state where the education is failing but indiana will bring that to hoosiers. >> veryy good. on to another question and return to the order i think i may have inadvertently botched in the order in which you were before so -- >> how do we rebut? >> because i'm a kind and generous person and look to you to keep on track, 15 seconds.

go a ahead. >> i'm asking the processe by which. >> will you call me or do i raise my hand? >> it's not the h classroom, but raising of the hand would be good. and certainly if somebody mentions you or calls you out on a policy i will make sure that you are given the time to talk to them. so, the order has been restored and we will continue now with the questionor to mr. hill. some businesses voiced concerns that the social policies and areas such as abortion and lgbtq rights might hurt our convention business and ability to attract and maintain talent needed to grow indiana's economy. how do you respond to these concerns, and you have a minute to do that. >> we need to understande what kind of state we live in. we are a state that is about familiesut and we want to make sure our families are at the center of what we do here in the

state. with development and economic growth it's a wonderful opportunity but not at the cost of who we are as hoosiers. we were the first state to have a firm pro-life position banning abortion and states, businesses know when they come into the state that's what to expect, so we don't change who we are to be attractive to the outside world. we need to maintain our standards and be the type of state that is welcoming to families, welcoming to businesses and doing the best that we can to move our agenda forward. >> and we will continue with additional responses for the remainder of the candidates here. seconds apiece. we will go to mr. bowden and any possible impact it might have on the economic development. >> i think i've made this clear i'm pro-life. people are looking for leaders

with conviction and i'm thinking it's a human rights issue and also a religious issue but we are also doing things like zero cost adoption where you have an adoption fund that will help parents not only pay for adoption but the aftercare and these are policies if you look at the policies you should look at the website we have them all in writing and they've all been approved by i people like you. these are policies everyone can agree with. >> we are a culturally conservative state but one of the things we have to do a better job of his telling of the authentic story of indiana. i head up the destination corporation while the neighboring states spend anywhere from 20 a poor job of talking about the reality that we are in a moral crisis in the country right now. we need to support our families.

we all know that the reason we are where we are right now is because there is a crisis, the family is broken. the state of indiana is for life and we believe you reap what you sow. we want to be a state that encourages that in all ways. it's an education with our children, it's in our small businesses. we are a state that stands for life and we are proud to be that. >> we need to keep families at the center of our everyday lives and i think we need to keep education at the center of our everyday lives and continue to build on quality of life for our kids and grandkids to build their lives in indiana and we need an economic opportunity for everybody to build their lives in indianana and continue to len into the conservative values of the state. >> very good. our q next question.

>> as i mentioned in the introduction of a few moments ago, i pointed out that of course you are the head of the economic development corporation under the governor. what role what they play in your administration and how do you respond to critics that argue it interferes withe free enterprise and lacks transparency, fevers certain regions and is able to pick economic winners and losers? >> i've been very clear on this that it shouldn't be spending billions of dollars of taxpayer money buying land in one county and then discover we have a water problem and it's taking water and resources from a smaller community to central indiana. it's inappropriate behavior. under our leadership it was a place that businesses could come from allin over the state to get help dealing with the bureaucracy of government and that is the role that it would play under my leadership.

i do not to believe that it should be the lead economic corporation. it should be the indiana development corporation and that is the kind of focus we are going to have, but we still need to businesses need help all over the state. people calls all the signage say i'm having a difficult time getting a permit, getting this information, and that is the proper function and at the role that we would play under my leadership. >> as governor i will flip the script on economic development. we will empower the local and regional development organizations to have true collaboration but also limiting the state income tax puts money into the hoosiers pockets and helps small businesses grow and attracts workers to indiana. >> the indiana economic development corporation is and what hoosiers want in the state of indiana.

they want to be able to know where their property tax money is going. actually what they want is no property tax. they want to be able to know why we put a whale of a company in the middle of a desert like situation where it's going to take $2 million to get the water ton it which again they do not want this. indiana economic development corporation have the regional office in china with billion-dollar companies comes billions of strengths. we have to be aware when they come into our state they are also bringing all of their lobbyists and ideology. we need to rebuild indiana. there are many vacant buildings in our state that we can occupy. we do not have to expand. we can rebuild that will save taxpayer money you over saul

that agency certainly under eric holcomb's administration and were in place when the project took shape. weigh in on that. a lot of people have referred to you. >> it's a terrific contrast between career politics and small thinking and big thinking that is going to put more money in the pockets. under my leadership, for a dollaror a year i stepped away from my business, for a dollar a year we grow the economy by $51 billion and those are high wageli jobs. wages, those are unacceptable to me. we went in and solved that with a high wage jobs transforming from kokomo to saint joe company toto allen county. to say that it doesn't have a role, we are competing against ohio and north carolina and you are either going to win or we are not. but they will take the jobs if we don't want them to keep our

kids and grandkids here to keep the kids that are graduating -- two years ago i was sitting in south korea with the company. we wouldn't have that investment with highve wage jobs. we either plan to win or we are not. >> the big problem here -- it is a shadow government. we are w talking about a qualifd agency. wehat are taking public money ad putting it into an organization that hidesk the lack of transparency all these things talked about, that's fine if you

play aboveboard. under my administration we will bring them any to make sure they are providing the resources across the board and in balance with of the rest of the state, not picking winners and losers and the project is a prime example of the state gone wrong. >> i see we have some interested parties that want to weigh in on this. >> we are going to deviate from the script about 15 seconds for each of you that wants to address this. >> i would love to go first. i j was noticing he didn't mentn boone county because that is having all the water taken from them. i met a man that was from boone county and he came up to me and said this is not our indiana anymore. i would like to know if he can address the many hoosiers in the state they don't feel like it's theirn state of indiana anymore because they are not about the billions of dollars. >> did you want to weigh in? >> as a former commission you

have o to have collaboration and there hasn't been that collaboration between the state and local government. that's absolutely critical. that's why i want to end power of the organizations to have that true partnership. >> so again i think we need to have a 92 county strategy in which every community has an opportunity to be successful and where we recognize the small business startups drive our economy. we all enjoy and appreciate the large investments that are made but the businesses drive the economy. >> could you get more time -- >> i think i can. i'm kind of concern to the conce lieutenant governor is suggesting there needs to be something done about the economic development corporation. that's part of the administration. we have two people here on stage that are a part of the problem.

weo. are going to stick with the order and give time t to respon. we can spend our whole time on this but let me see where we go hiwith this. take it away. >> i'm going to need more. the fact that he defines tens of thousands of high wage jobs is a problem tells you he's not the right leader forht indiana. we need to grow our economy and put more money and people's pockets to fix education, to support our police ander firefighters.lt number two on water there is an abundance of water in the state with politicians like suzanne didn't take the time or have the interest in studying it and knowing that it's an asset that we can use strategically against

competitors like ohio and michigan and illinois so we have an abundance of water. it's a transportation issue bringing outside investment to pay for that, not taxpayers. >> two people have suggested that you're a career politician and mr. hill suggested you should have been more vocal perhaps with yourit concerns no. >> when i voted for the largest tax cut in our state's history, first broadband expansion for families that are being victimized by and ended up standing for people struggling withp mental illness and addiction. i'm proud of my service, and certainly mr. hill. >> this is getting good.

finish us off on this question. >> here's the bottom line ineq case you did not know there are many hoosiers in the state of indiana that are losing their land because t they came in and quoted them for pricing way above the value of the land which makes it harder for people to compete here ind the state of indiana. here's what's important and sfirst i would love to be on the record. 100,000 jobs that need to be filled in the state of indiana we need to rebuild and not extend with billion-dollar companies that bring -- [applause] >> i've been around the politics a long time and never thought i would see republicans fighting so much over economic development. let's compromise we won't leave economic development entirely, but we will give our vocal cordsa little bit of a break wir raising off the hands on this

one. 2022, congress passed the chips and science act.iv this fall, co-authored by the indiana senator taught young, co-authored with chuck schumer authorized $280 billion of new funding for domestic research and manufacturing. senator braun voted against the measure obviously as the co-author supported. a show of hands how many think he took the right to vote on vot issue? the chips act. do y you agree it was flawed and what you have voted in the way senator young did? >> i support senator young if that's your question. >> i messed you up by suggesting

-- >> [inaudible] [laughter] let's make this easier. had you been in the senate, what you have voted, yes or no all of you that would have voted for the chips act, raise your hand. so for those listening we have mr. chambers and those that would have voted against. did you raise your hand one way or another? >> i was talking about hypothetical questions. if there's not much hypothetical about the notion of plants that aren opening in the high-tech sector, which many states across the country are benefiting. we are not going to have questions at this point. ino ask the questions. sorry. remember i said i would be kind, don't push me.

let's get back to at the risk of restoring some sanity and a semblance of timing to the open-ended questionsg which agan the order goes back to. indiana currently has one of the lowest income tax rates in the country among stateste that actually charge and soon will have the lowest in the nation. yet you wish to eliminate the income tax entirely as you pointed out in your opening statement. is it realistic to think you can takenk away $8 million which is more than a third of indiana's indiana'stax revenue without hug services and programs that you said you care about a deeply suh as caregiver pay for hoosiers with disabled family members and you will have one minute to answer. due to the high cost of living we can put thousands of dollars back into their pockets every year. my opponents who screamed blood murder and say we can do it but

it's yours not theirs and you aywill always spend it more wisy than the government so it has to be based in, it can't happen overnight. we need to triggers in place but as the former vice chair and former auditor a of state, we cn absolutely do it. we do it by limiting government growth. we do it by ending wasteful government spending and finding efficiencies and government. when we do we give you money back that you will put into the economy which grows our revenues. we end up allowing small businesses to grow and prosper and attract people to indiana and today where are they moving to? south dakota, no income tax states who by the way their gdp in the population is growing at greater rates than indiana. we need to be competitive. >> i will start by saying when i wasn't included in the two debates, it was the hoosier

voice. hoosiers want a true conversation about property tax in this state and the reason is because property tax has been raised for over 40%. soso when we are having these conversations, we need to have a conversation at the hoosier dining room table. right now when we talk about income tax, what we are most concerned about is this phasing in because to the everyday voter when they hear phasing in, they hear that isn't going to happen so we are here to look at property taxes and think we could have a real conversation on the ground with our local offices when you elect me to be your republican governor in the primary. >> hasn't articulated a plan and she said two weeks ago she hasn't told us how much she's going to have to cut from education or public safety or

mental health or health care or quality of life quality-of-life initiatives. i go around the state and not the hoosier that i've met believes that this is doable. >> the income tax i think it is a gimmick. it's not realistic. what we can offer our solutions. we've got tax and state's history and it's not the only big act. the cares act is the largest increased in the history of mankind, for trillion and he's responsible for that as well so we need to take a comprehensive approachk for reducing taxes and providing a fair process for taxation in the state. >> the general assembly is studying how we can properly reduce in a responsible way the income taxes but the most

important thing i hear from indiana especially our seniors is property taxes and the fact they are at risk of losing their homes because of the rising cost of property taxes and that's just wrong and why we are proposing we will freeze property taxes giving them surety and make sure that we reduce the rate of growth and have to work with the general assembly but that is what we will have to focus on. >> since you have been, the suggestion is you have unleashed a gimmick on hoosier voters let's give you at least 15 seconds to answer thosesa accusations. >> i'm talking about a tax cut. if we understood the legislative process we also would understand for certain hoosiers in addition to that we also have to understand that it's not going to happen overnight. we were 3.4%, today 3.1 and in 27 we are going to 2.9.

helping hoosiers, small business, attracting people to indiana. >> i am not here to represent mike braun but i will say i've heard enough of his talking points and we have heard every member of congress essentially voted for that and as far as the infrastructure it was important to keep the crossroads of america. >> for not speaking for him you're doing a pretty good job of it. [applause] before we leave the subject of taxes, many voters submitted questions to the debate commission asking about rising property taxes.

a resident asks considering the way a house value skyrockets the last few years into the and theg increases in property taxes, what are you going to do to protect homeowners and you have a minute. >> this is r a really difficult question and the reason is whenever you're talking about the taxes, you need that conversation not just at the state level but the local level. my intention is to go to all of my counties to talk to the commissioners and have a conversation about lowering your property taxes. there are a lot of referendums coming from the schools. we love your schools and we want to support our teachers and want them to get paid well but we are growing andha expanding schoolst a rate that is not able to be kept up by the property tax owner. this is very concerning and the state. $37,000 median income, 68,000

for households. we think that is probably over the actual number, so right now what we need to do is have a conversation at the county level which i'm going to do. this is not a gimmick and i would really exhort you to think about who is running for governor and what they are doing with your money. simplify the process and make them uniform to the extent we can do that and understanding for people with opportunities for seniors not to get kicked out of their house and have portability of the built in games they have. in their 50 years of combined service have raised taxes 50

times. she's not credible with seven times in her term as legislature. property taxes need to be focused on. i have a plan and it is a priority. >> let's try to stick to that. property tax is a concern by a lot of people but depending on where you go, we need a comprehensive approach. this isn't a gimmick or a solution or a quick fix. we need to have a long-term plan for how to move forward. the problem is with such values in every community they are different we need a strategy with the locals to come up with a good program so we can manage our property taxes in an efficient and fair way as it pertains to young people and seniors. >> what are you going to do about property taxes? >> that is the foundation of the plan. property taxes by 15%

a year and in some cases multiple years in a row and that is i hard to plan for if you wee on a fixed income that's why we propose we freeze it for seniors but also the growth would only be allowed to be about 5% a year under the plan that makes it easier for people and their budgets to plan so that is the foundation for how we help people with property tax issues ranging across the state. >> i voted for the largest tax cut in history and i'm certainly open to that. my opponents are entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts and as a state representative that's why i want to continue to cut taxes and eliminate the tax putting money into your pockets helping small businesses grow attracting people to indiana. >> wee are going to give those alarms more time to flex and

rest the vocal cords and go with more rapidfire questions if you want to call it that. the next section is election integrity which has been a persistent issue nationwide and in recent years, so we have seen that come to the floor many times, and the candidate that is likely to be at the top of the ballot on the republican side, donald trump certainly has weighed in quite a bit on the issue of what he sees as a lack of integrity. i a show of hands if you are confident in the integrity of the elections. we have mr. chambers, ms. crouch, the all confident that's one way to get 15 seconds. why are you not confident in our

election integrity? >> in order for me to be confident i want to see more involving voters t and it's the hardest thing to get on the ballot, getting the signatures. i can also tell you all around the state many people don't know it's time to vote right now. i think our secretary of state was out of the country so i just think it's wise for us to pay attention to how much attention is going on in the voting process before we give it a rating. >> a significant number of republicans in indiana and elsewhere agree with president trump's claim that the election was stolen, raise your hand if you agree that it was. >> that's not a yes or no question. >> that's funny because i asked it as a yes or no. isis joe biden the duly elected president of the united states?

anybody disagree? i just think that's an unfair question. what happened that everybody should agree on is that it wasn't properly educated so they should have spent more time investigating and it wasn't investigated. [applause] [cheering] listen, listen. >> i woke up in the morning and he had anomalies we can't understand and we don't know about. >> for a question that's impossible to answer you just answered it. next time raise your hand if you will recognize the results of the president regardless of the outcome. raise your hand if you will recognize the outcome of the presidential election.

>> you're asking us to say something that hasn't happened yet. we would like to base it on facts. [applause] often times those seeking the highest office inat the state of indiana who do subscribe to the notion our elections are sound and a pillar of democracy would commit to agreeing with the outcome. >> i'm saying there's no way to know what happens between now and then so to go out and say a country sought after by many places all over the world -- >> let's try this one. -- [applause] this one you can address i think. the senator who is not here this evening received donald trump's endorsement for governor.

how many ofnt you would have welcomed president trump's endorsement? [applause]r >> why wouldn't we. maybel that is a better questio. >> i'm just asking the question. >> it seems like you're trying to set us up and cause division in our party. we don't appreciate it. [applause] >> i think the party is doing it quite capably on its own, creating division. >> we are going to move onto the next open ended question. this goes to mr. hill. i do appreciate the vigor by the way. there were arguments in the case that could decide whether the government canan criminalize homelessness. do you support lost ticketing or arresting people that sleep outdoors in public spaces? to prohibit camping and participating in the public i

think communities can move homelessness and it's an issue that's not about homelessness, housing as much as itt is about mental health and addiction. we need to make sure we remove dangerous situations from the streets and people living in the streets it's bad for them and for the rest of us and i support communities being able to eradicate the process with compassionan by doing so in a manner that keeps us safe and clean and our communities open. >> let me just say i appreciate your enthusiasm for the candidates but it takes away from the time we have for questions so please be mindful of i that. >> this is at the heart of our capital proposal where we want to have people feel safe and be safe in our downtown indianapolis where we have invested a lot of money as taxpayers but we also want to

make sure we have the resources to help people overcome addiction and be restored to their families and communities and we are going to work with the private sector and locals to make sure we have the resources to help peopleo overcome their addiction and that's going to be an important part of what i do as the governor in the state of indiana. >> should the government have the opportunity to arrest or ticket? >> the biggest issue is mental health and addiction. we've seen a 20% increase of 60% among young people, they are the future of indiana. suicide is the second leading cause. i would dare say most of our homeless people struggle with mental health and addiction. that's the bigger issue we should be talking about and addressing. >> indiana, you are a good state and you recognize what's taking

place right now in our state we care about our military veterans which are often times homeless. we are estate that believes in law and order. there is a candidate missing from the stage that didn't support the police but ice over the police and law and order. for the homeless issues we definitely want to be those that are going and working with of the i. think you should be asking yourself if the government did whatt they did to you during covid, what will they be doing with people that have a mental illness. [applause] iss think where a lot of the mental illness starts his lack of economic opportunity. number one, the protected server

plan policy we rolled out on addresses bringing back the behavioral health centers so police officers and firefighters are our mental health professionals and they didn't sign up for that. we closed them years ago and we need to refund those behavioral health centers and talk about and focus on repeat and violent offenders, let's get the repeat offenders off the street to deal with our bail system. >> i would ask that you refrain from applause. back to the questions at hand why are test scores and graduation rates stagnating, what innovative ideas do you have to change that and make improvements? >> we have a constitutional and moral obligation to do all we can to educate our kids and that's why i'm preparing for choice. it's been good to us. we had the different kids in our

families with different needs. that's why i'm a big fan of vouchers and competition. even public school administrators tell me behind closed doors this has helped make them better but we also have a teacher investment program and we have a teacher crisis especially in our small towns and the teacher investment program goes right to the teachers income tax and property tax, a $5,000 pay raise for the average teacher and then to fund early childhood education. a billion dollars coming due from fiscal management we put a stake in the ground and said it's inappropriate for us to allow or think about we get people to the third gradient can't read. let's solve that and make sure we i invest in the future of our kids. we will teach our children how to think, not what to think and i want to take the five agencies

that deal with education workforce training and put them into one. making sure they prepare for that next step whether it is an employment enrollment or apprenticeship. there's an educational crisis taking place in the state. i selected as my head of education 30 years experience in the classroom and the masters administration. k w through five we are going to restore the focus on academics unlike what was set up your own stage. there is a heavy focus on that is taking up classroom time. we want to make sure we bring trade back in seventh and eighth grade into the private sector to talk to our sixth-graders about how technology is affecting their profession. we are ready to step back and become the training capital of the united states of america that is who the hoosiers are and

that is indiana goodness. >> your education strategy. >> this is our biggest challenge and opportunity. we are looking backward and need to be pointed forward to be ready for a modern economy 20% of kids can't read going from third grade to fourth grade we have a literacy problem in indiana that is unacceptable 65% of kids can't pass and i learned test graduating sixth grade that is unacceptable we are not preparing our kids for economic prosperity in the future. we need to make education individualized. kids learn differently today than 20 or 30 years ago. we need to make sure their educational system is parent centered we are focused on trades in seventhea grade and nd more money to teachers and listed buildings administrative costs. we need a system of free of federal entanglements and while i support the choice and vouchers the reality is we don't have much of a choice when our options are some of the failing schools in indiana we need to make sure we go back to the

basics reading, writing and arithmetic's and we need high academic standards. my wife is a teacher and we understand what'se necessary. we need to have parental responsibility along with rental rates soer we have a partnership between parents and teachers moving their parents education -- children's education forward. >> i know the phrase most of the debates where youe all have met. are you suggesting you would not take federal funding? >> i would urge they stopped taking federal dollars tied with federal programs. they dump the money out for you and i asked the superintendent how much of your budget is federal dollars and he said 7%. how much of what you do is tracking the 7% and what they do is tied to those federal dollars. if we get rid of the federal dollars to local schools have

the abilityty to direct their on ability to move forward. >> anyone else think that? >> the department of education constantly and we are obligated to do whatever they are asking us to do just programs we want to take into consideration everyone up on stage that has worked with of the current administration is complaining about our scores they were focused while our children were failing in school. that's unacceptable. >> does anyone else want to weigh in? >> i don't think we should take federal money that had strings attached. as governor i will make sure the department of education and superintendent of public superintendent of public instruction does not take that kind of money that has the strings attached and puts us in the direction that is different from our values and what we

believe. >> does anyone else want to weigh in? let's go to the next question. as you pointed out you served in the executive and legislative branches handheld office at the county level as well and headed to several agencies. at the same time you said there's room to make government more efficient. we talked about audits and so forth. can you name one agency you would downsize or eliminate? >> just about all of us. >> elimination or downsizing? >> being able to get them down to a manageable size then in addition to that we want outside independent audits to determinee how to do a better job we will

realize cost savings we can put towards programs. we arehe not the only state doig this.ir iowa has done this and they are projecting $215 million of savings over four years. we are five times the size of iowa so we modernize and reorganize and we will realize cost savings that then can be put towards new programs and services and give money back. >> one of the programs, one of the departments we would be decentralizing is the department of equity and inclusion. we would like to decentralize that and putt it in small towns all over that want to be included and we would like to change the name to a better

citizen. we wantov to be those that are shrinking government and so again if you want a politician there's everybody on the left of stage. i'm running for governor and i ask w for your vote. >> mr. chambers anything you would want to eliminate or downsize? >> i've been reinventing business for 40 years and reshaping it and building a team and addressing theev challenges. suzanne ran the housing agency and she didn't do a thing. it hasn'tou produced any more housing units or had any more efficiency so she's talking about things she's going to do but not what's in her portfolio rightt now. you need a ceo to get regulation out of people's lives that's going to take someone from

outside government, not a legislator. >> let's stick with the order mr. hill, agencies you would like to downsize. >> i appreciate but i'm going to get rid of it all together on day one. we need to eliminate diversity equity and inclusion. diversity is a wonderful thing but not at the cost of excellence. inclusion is a wonderful thing but not at the cost. we are going to take a good look at the department there's over 250 staffers making a lot of money at the department and n'there are still third graders who can't read. how about cutting that in half we will get started in one example. >> any agencies you see fit to tear back or eliminate? >> i've talked about this the last three years one of the important things a governor does is hire the agency heads, 30,000 people spending 20 billion on

state money and a 22 million in federal money and i'm the only candidate that has said every agency would have to reapply for their job. what we've been doing is collecting talent and o names of people that want to come and observe and experts suggest there's about 15% of waste right now we can get out of the system and that would be the focus of my administration bringing the most talented people to the their sothey agencies can servee people of indiana. >> the suggestion was you didn't doea enough to create ample affordable h housing. >> i had up for agencies. a secretary of agriculture and the office of rural affairs. all those agencies have been focused onow how to make indiana grow and create more housing units particularly for those that are vulnerable, 2700 units

that have been added, first-time homebuyers assistanceproblems.

anybody 15 seconds on this notion, anybody want to weigh in on that? when i look at you and my 15 seconds will be up. what we will do is this. we are going to pause for a moment to wish some of our broadcast audience a farewell into some of the tv and radio stations to move on to other programming. the final 30 minutes of the commission's gubernatorial primary debate can be found online via the website of media outlets across the state or at indiana debate commission.com. a recording of the debate will also be available shortly after and weo would like to take this moment to thank our supporters.

hispanic broadcastersa. >> broadcasters association, the indiana bar association, aarp and the following. back where we left off. indiana has an abortion law that bans most abortions from day one and only allowsti termination up to ten weeks and up to 20 weeks in the case of fatal fetal anomaly or cases where the pregnant individual health is at risk. do you support current statute in indiana or does the band go too far or not far enough in your mind? one minute.

>> the reason i'm for life is i believeev in the creator of lif. also a concept that i know is one that you know, you reap what you sow. i'm not talking about the exceptions that aret made of tht really are not exceptions but more a medical decision between two patients, the mother and the baby. i am not talking about those scenarios but we have made exceptions to see how many took place in 2023 and the gestation age you will see that it was higher than prior years. we need to be ae. state that sas we are for life. if we want to be a country that is for goodness we need to

support life from the very beginning all the way to the end. i am a candidate that is more than willing and ready to have that conversation after may 7th. >> is the law currently indiana where it should be, not astringent enough? >> of the exceptions are important but what i hear is about property taxes. i hear that about education and healthcare issues and creating an economy that is where my focus would be. >> i brought 2,411 aborted babies back to establish their humanity. our statutes are fine until we don't enforce them and we have a problem right now with terminated pregnancy reports not being filed by the health department and the current

governor are not supporting that. i will direct the health department to file for public notice the termination of pregnancy reports to make sure we can and force the abortion ban. it's no good if we can't enforce it and that is what is happening currently. >> [inaudible] >> unintentional. it is a human rights issue and religious issue for me and i think i was proud of the general generalassembly for passing a pe law right away as soon as they could. i think it is settled and that is why we are focused on things like zero cost adoption that allows our 13,000 kids in foster care to get a loving home and that allows us to strengthen the family. these are issues everyone is

getting behind. people are excited about one of the most important things we can do to strengthen the family and that is what we are going to focus on. >> i am pro-life my record is clear and the tie-breaking vote to strengthen the law and today indiana is one of the most pro-life states in the country. it is equally important that we protect and save lives and support both mothers and those babies and it's why i'm so proud of that we have dedicated $45 million to supporting women and mothers and those children up to two years of age to be able to get them the kind of support that indicates we support but we also protect at all stages. >> let's stay with the subject for a moment and maybe we can address the questions. all five members of the current indiana supreme court were appointed by republican

governors and handing down the court's decision on indiana's abortion law, which as you pointed outt is one of the most stringent, a majority of those members of the court found article one, section one of indiana's constitution does give women the right to in cases of a threat to their life and well-being to in fact they have a right to abortion. that's the first time the court staked out that particular position. did that court, do you agree or disagree with a show of hands do you agree a majority of whom said under certain circumstances under article one, section one how many agree with of the majority of the court?

>> it's very difficult because as everybody knows they are individual per case. i have no idea of the specific circumstances but i think what we have said is a mom and a baby whenever they are approachede in a situation that is difficult for the mother'sif life it's the baby i and the mother's life ani wouldrt support the doctor makig a decision for both so i don't know where that puts me with your question. >> we don't tend to talk about it very much. it's just concerning. whenever they put their opinions together there is a phenomenal opinion they said it needs to go back to the state when roe v

wade was declared way back when that it wasn't in a manner but they talked about how at the time there was no case present and they should have looked out at the state for the time roe v wade claimed. >> i'm going to have to cut you off. [applause] this is an important issue you correctly pointed out important to conservatives and progressives alike. let's start this open-ended question related but unrelated and i guess b we will start with mr. chambers. most of you indicated support for in vitro fertilization. how do you reconcile your views with the fact that typically to create life using ivf, you generally have to destroy embryos because the process creates embryos that simply are not going to be used. tough to reconcile. let's start with you. >> the joy in my life has been

myy 28-year-old son and i want that to be spread to all. i do want it to be available to as many as possible. >> i l believe in the culture of life and opportunity for loving couples who want to have children but arech not able to participate in any process. i support that moving forward andon on top of that, i want to support enforcement of the band and what i would want to know are you willing to step up to the plate and and force making sure the department is providing so we can and force the origin. i would like to know that because so far i am the only candidate that has spoken out that says we will and force the terminated pregnancy reports to make sure we can enforce the law. >> we are going to work to

protect. we want families to grow and that is an important part of what we arere going to do. i will also make sure that all of our agencies follow the law and support what they are supposed to in a timely fashion. that's going to be important for my administration and we've made that clear. >> i am pro-life. my record is clear. but as a woman and as a mother i cannot fathom the pain that a couple or a mother goes through who wants sooe desperately to he a baby and hasn't been able to, so we have to wrap our arms around these women and support them in support life and give them the right to be able to bring children into this world. >> i am a firm believer in life and think everyone should have the opportunity. it's also interesting we are talking about noting that there

is a lot of aborted fetuses that are put in vaccines and we haven't talked about that at all yet we are in a state that is recommending and really people are losing their jobs for not getting those vaccines. i would also point out i would support the transparency that we arete looking for with these reports and i would further say that we have five candidates running for governor of the conservative ticket and i think it's very fair for us to say we are asking you together to support transparency and get the reports to the people. [applause] >> because they contain medical information and have been rejected by the department. [applause] any information to identify someone has been taken out of the program so get your facts

straight. [applause] >> they had rejected that information so if you havere a concern, take it up t with them. a different question. in what ways do you believe immigration at the southern border is affecting indiana a lafayette resident wants to know what candidates support cracking down on businesses that employ undocumented immigrants. >> the border is a huge challenge and if he's here on the stage, we talk about the failure to put up legislation to lead on anything except taking the taxpayer-funded photo ops at the border. it's a challenge. the front door is closed, the back door is flopping wide open. i would wear out my welcome in dc making sure they understand this is putting our guardsmen at

risk. we have a fentanyl problem because of the broken border. so, then you have criminals coming into the state. hoosier lives are at stake because the failure. it needs to be addressed. we need to advocate for a strong border. >> would you support? >> immigration is not supposed to be a state issue but it has to be because the responsibility toto making that happen we needo send the patrol down to the border. i called for the national guard to go down to the state before governor holcomb put that forth by the step two no safe haven in the state o of indiana. most sanctuary businesses under the excuse we need labor we are going tore hire just about

anybody. we can't have it both ways. we will either stop the illegal immigration where we are going to lay down for it. i am not laying down for anybody. [applause] >> biden needs to do his job, congress needs to do their job and as your governor, we are going tory wake up every day working hard to embarrass federal government into better performance. in the meantime when they are not doing their job, it's on us to support our governors of the board agreed we will support the nationalen guard to the border o help protect the border, support our governors and our law enforcement. we simply must follow the rule of law. >> due to the failed policies we have 9 million illegals in this country and last year alone we stopped almost 200 people at the border on the terrorist watch list. every state is a border state

including indiana. so as governor i will send national guard down to help protect the southern border but i also will protect indiana's border making sure we don't get that influx as a state representative because i voted to prohibit sanctuary cities and if they come here we will send themo sanctuary cities and other states. >> i would just say there are illegal immigrants already here in the stateig of indiana so wht you have in indiana is a very intense situation that's taken place because of a lack of leadership and you could say a president that was promoting illegal immigration. we do need to have a staff of the border by anybody would be participating in a solution from a logistical standpoint without

actually stopping what's taking place seems like it wouldn't make sense. we need a party shining a light on that immigration and then address those here right now taking all those people and putting them back ate the border seems like a logistical nightmare. i think we need a temporary situation where they are not citizens but they are able to get some kind of a certificate so they can work here in the state of indiana and pay taxes. >> a follow-up question of sorts and we probably just want to do this with a show h of hands. the foundation, conservative think tank this month proposed that states should charge tuition of the undocumented

children were the parents of the children of undocumented children who weree not born her. essentially pelvic school publil tuition for grades k-12. do you think that makes sense the heritagese foundation proposal? they argue that this is a burden in some states more than others to do so in terms of providing this kind of education, where do you all stand? if you agree that schools should in fact charge tuition of undocumented workers, we've had much more discussion but what about -- >> if you would give more time to answer the questions we will. you're kind of taking over and these are tough situations. >> hoosiers are tired of immigrants coming across the border. we needed to enforce our laws and fix our border.

our senator needs to do his job which he is not doing. i haven't read the heritage -- >> fair enough. i don't know what the question was but i think what you're getting at is due when we want to charge illegals to be educated and the answer a is no. i don't want to have a system where illegals are able to buy their way into citizenship. if you are here illegally there's no price you can pay to gain access to what's hours. >> one of the things i suggested is we should have a way for people to pay taxes if they are not citizens. there is a major problem here

theio constitution doesn't addrs because we have a president that was being irresponsible in hurting the nation by leaving the borders open so we do need to come to the table with strong governors that can come together and with the strengthh of the state come up with a logistical administrative solution that would be good for all the citizens in the state of indiana. >> we have almost two essentially closing statements but i do want to try this one more time. mask mandates should be banned in case of another pandemic. if you agree raise your hand. i just wanted to see if the microphone was working. with that we have come to the close of the final debate you each have two minutes to address anything we left on the table tonight or make your final pitch to the voters. let's keep it simple

mr. chambers go ahead. >> thank you for being here. what a journey. a lot of firsts in the last seven months. i've never done this before. i'm not a politician. i am a grateful hoosier. i started a company from nothing and felt the pains of starting a business from nothing. i am worried about payroll and putting food g on the table and gas in the car. it was tough but i'm grateful and it's a service opportunity and notor a career change. i believe in the potential and served for two years to grow the economy and to bring a businesslike approach to have optimism and urgency and build a great team and raise wages and do things that haven't been done. and we were not winning in a way that was leaving people behind. we have to go play to win because then you have a growing economy and you can fix

education and government constraints because unemployment goes down. when we decided to get into this seven months ago we decided it's time for someone to run it like a business. i was in bedford a man came up to me and said i just voted for you, and it gave me a shock down my spineed i was so humbled by that because i am working hard to earn the votes and rolling out policy, doing the work going around listening because that's what ceos do. you s have our senior senator wo doesn't show up, he mails it in and s expects people to vote for them. i don't. i am honored by a vote and that's why earn your vote and then i will work harder to deliver on that effort and make indiana better than it has ever been so thank you and i would appreciate your support on

may 7th. your closing thoughts. >> i'm running for governor because hoosiers are hungry for leadership more importantly proven leadership we are facing assaults on absolute truth on a regular basis. manipulation of justice and sexualization of children destroying the narrative we know and love. don't let thehe politicians giva laundry list of talking points and say that's enough. to prove that you can do the job.o as attorney general i brought them back to establish their humanity because i believe in a culture of life and liberty, freedom. that's why when they announced their mask mandates i put a stop to it. it's about freedom and liberty.

in believe in truth. why i put a stop to the attorney general because you need to be able to count on the people that willge get the job done. my name is curtis and i have a record of getting the job done. i wouldre appreciate your suppot on may 7th. >> what's important is to have a bold vision for the people of indiana and the ability to implement that vision. we have more plans in writing than anyone on the stage combined so i would encourage you to go to the website and interface with our plans help us improve them let me go through quickly we have a plan to restore for the first time ever in history and it's at the core of our very culture and business

growth and everything that we should be about. we have a plan for each of the regions to be one of the top in the country. to build a team and today it's the 32nd best place according to u.s. news & world report by freezing property taxes we have a plan ton make sure that we grw every single part of our economy and all 92 counties. these are the kind you should be looking for. i'm going to ask you for some things and make one observation. fear and faith are incompatible and there's ath lot of fear rigt now in politics.

i'm going to ask you to roll up your sleeves it's going to take a team effort not anyone present as gifted enough to do it alone. i'm going to ask you to have a bold vision and expect us to be a great partner to you and last braver safety as we travel, wisdom most importantly and a servants heart. >> i'm running for governor because i care deeply about indiana and i care deeply about you.ly i'm the only candidate on the stage that has the experience to be able to deliver results. we want to start by eliminating the state income tax and we are going to ask the tax we can put money into your pockets today it costs $11,400 more than three years ago just to meet basic needs. now my opponent, and i'm the only ones saying we are going to eliminate a tax my opponents say

itan can't happen but what they are really saying is the governmentnt needs more of your money and you need less of it. you can do it is the former chair and auditor states we can do it if we limit the government growth and end wasteful government spending and find efficiencies we can give you money and w allow small business to grow and attract people to indiana but i'm also the only candidate on the stage that said helping those that struggle with mental health and addiction would be a top priority. a 20% increase in anxiety and depression, suicide second leading cause of death among young people and that is why as governor we will never have mask mandates because of what it's done to all of us but particularly our children. i'm running for governor because i f want to make sure that india doesn't become a california, new york, illinois. i'm running to protect our conservative values. as governor i will make sure parents control what is being taught to our children and we will stand shoulder to shoulder

with police and enforce crime laws to the fullest. n the mountf debt. you will see that you and i will build it will not cast aside the most vulnerable hoosiers, the unborn, the elderly, the disabled struggle with mental illness and addiction because they are in families, our friends and our neighbors. we'll never compromise in protecting faith, and freedom. i am miss crouch running for governor i ask your votes of a can build a better indiana together, thank you. [applause] >> and ms. reitenour. >> i would just ask you if you feel like any of that is actually happening right now? we live in a state that says it is a red state and believes in conservative values and yet i am trying to figure out where the conservatives are in government? right now we are having a big issue in our state because we

are discussing matters that you and your communities are discussing their moral crisis it's very big debate about socialism and capitalism. our state with that looks like if it looks like billion-dollar companies investing in the state we have 100,000 jobs already available. these and billion-dollar companies are bringing high-paying jobs. but i ask you for what the politicians our education has failed. there's over 100,000 eighth-graders that are not able to do basic reading and math. that is a failure. six years ago i was asked, i was told i would be the governor of the state of indiana. i know that sounds wild. i waited for four years for that confirmation. a person he said i needed to

allow the lord to remove my mind and i might accept his will. want you to know indiana that i've done a lot of walking around this state and he really broke my heart when i saw a hoosier in boone county that said this is not our indiana anymore. if you want to billions of dollars in bathroom business, choose the politicians. if you want to someone that loves freedom that is going to look t out for your families and encourage you to grow in the state in the private sector and through the good people that you are, check out our website because that is indiana goodness. >> you don't like my yes or no raise your hand questions, so i'm going to ask the last one to myself who appreciated the fact these candidates were willing to engage in a vigorous discussion of the issues of importance to

hoosiers i will raise my hand. i appreciate you all for doing that. [applause] and to those that have watched or listened to this evening's debate, thank you for caring about the state as governance. please remember to vote may 7th. i think you and i wish you a good night.