his experiences of white attack helicopters during his two tours in the vietnam war. it is 6:15 p.m. eastern, freedom writer joan powerball discuss her activism during her civil-rights movement including over this patient and freedom rights in the 1963 or john washington and is 7:00 p.m. eastern, marking history tv series congress investigates looks at historic congressional investigations led to changes in policy and law as we get a senate committee led by tennessee democratic senator - thank them as organized crime around the country in the 1950s and exploring the american story was marking history tv, saturdays on "c-span2", find a full schedule in our program guide for wahi online anytime a cspan.org/history. >> sees manager unfiltered view of government, by these

television companies and more, including comcast. >> you thinking this is just a community center, no, it is way more than that comcast is partnering with a thousand community centers create wi-fi listings for students from low-income families can get the full tools they need to be ready for anything. comcast supports he spends a public service, along with these other television providers, you a front row seat to democracy. >> next to discussion with editors and writers on bias in media and trumps institutions, and a social media and the decline of his have impacted journalism from the marketing vice president, this is an hour and 20 minutes. background sounds

>> good evening, my name is matthew the director domestic policy studies here at the american a surprise, institute and is my pleasure to welcome you to our discussion tonight of liberalism. the american media in the future oof democracy. when the major problems we face american like today's the decline in trust in institutions. and the defendant particularly evident american views of established media outlets.ou i believe the most of this caused was distressed is fairly clear. for years now the media division aboard the decision between news andio opinion such as using the ideas and attitudes of a small percentage of the population for objective reporting and fair minded analysis card and the rise of the internet and social media in particular, has been the problem worse they journalism is driven by tribal affiliation and insatiable demand for clicks and such a whole ice climbing journals of them to see themselves not as

writers researchers are information gatherers, is that because to the latest iteration of social justice. by season were james bennett the economist columnist published groundbreaking essay, guessing disturbing trends the new light had been the editorial page editor for the new york timesti the 20 sitting, until june of 2020. any source resign the height of bully describes a true revolution in american life. another time america had been consumed by protests over the deaths of george floyd. in response at times published rangete of offense and some of encouraging protests and one calling for the abolition of the police, but the internal reactions from another written by arkansas senator tomom cotto, would be awake about four supporters of free and open debate. in the piece, entitled sending the troops, center cut and argued the u.s. military personnel should be deployed to american cities to quell the violence.

pricing and just as president hw bush had done in the race that erupted in los angeles in 1992, after police officers were acquitted in the beatings of rodney king. and reporters and staff members of the times, this lack twitter to express her outrage the preprepared to publish an opinion which with they disagreed we became the publishing the office at less than three days later, was forced. as peaceful times plus this way, vanities force other cells with another example of ther derivative media away from the o values of pluralism clinical neutrality coming in ideological balance. any exam sometimes became defined by anin intellectual monocle children intolerant ofen the plaintiff trust the reader's with alternatives perspectives. as james been a rights his essay quote journalism like the democracy works best when people refuse to surrender to fear.

and we are here this evening possibly to describe how american journalism and parts of it works parts of it have succumbed to a liberalism, but also to analyze the growth of fill the room and liberalism throughout the emergence of it is forming institutions and more broadly including higher education, and wake up the october 7th attack on israel. leading the discussion today will be the distinguished journalist charles lane and deputy opinion editor and colonist of the washington post, and the other three books on american history, and legal affairs he will be joined by nonresident, thomas williams a staff writer is the link is next move, nothing was the same will reflect on the events of 2020, and ask for the meeting to america's future. we are also happy to welcome to the states, leona johnson the editor-in-chief of the washington free beacon and cohost withre a i think stained ranches podcasts. we hope to have some time into

the discussion for the audience community if you are watching online, please submit any questions you may have to guy, uy . benton, bmt on aei .org or send quick question via twitter using the # new liberalism without i am happy to turn things over to charles lane, the washington post. >> thank you very much matthew very excited to be here with this distinguished panel in front of such a well pretty good sized crowd for an event of the central just want to make equipment from public remarks the framing of the cement which is the new liberalism kind of going with you think about it maybe 20 years ago, at the aei form about thehe new york times and they've just been complaining about the liberalism, and without i think that there's an interestingti

comment about our situation and we are not taking by the newspaper the stands accused of being pro- liberal. were not talking by the newspaper that is not liberal or anti- liberal talking about you know the notion of guilt liberalism which is kind of a different and that will be what we kind of circled around his we discussed things. and med alluded to the sensational article, the james producer the economist and it is one of the most provocative eloquent things that i brought in a long time. whether you agree or disagree, you have to admire that you definitely reading the words somebody says perhaps less than what he really thinks. and that is always now the marble thing that makes us particularly special occasion for me, then the idea that will talk about with two colleagues who have a want to say in the same subject's also really

gratifying so i'm going to start off by asking you james question and i went back and reread the piece and it took a lot of quotes from it, there's a lot of little material but i wanted to start to kick us off, not solk much talking about the incident involving tom cotton fed blue most frequently quoted line in your article and the reality is, that the times new york times is becoming the publication through which america's progressive elite talk to self about an america that does not really exist. until is what you meant by that and how that experience with a cotton off dead, prompted you to formulate that ought. >> thank you, chuck, and matt thank you very much for that kind introduction and thank you from convening this it is an honor to be here. nai to be here with you guys on

this panel. and i arrived at that conclusion from the experience of being back in the new york times and is spent most of my time there is a reporter for 15 years at the atlantic and i went back for years in the opinion editor and i discovered it in my view of the times the change radically and culturally in the intervening ten years. and these are changes is matt was saying we've seen and i think through journalism more broadly. throughoutut americans and wheni saw was what i believe i saw was trends that has been but the election donald trump in 2016. and reporters retreating to the

same kind of filter bubbles the leaders are easily able to conclusion themselves now. in becoming as susceptible to peer pressure that's been inserted in social media by the chosen tribes is anybody else. and again, the risk of sounding like an old crank or guy will yeah the old rewards for being contrarian had challenging conventional wisdom. i believe had been replaced and again, my story and my experiences with the new your times was bigger problem in a much more broad that. in those had been replaced by compulsion again, for very understandable reasons, but is eaabout faith or offer reasons f evil on the carpet the

incentives created by the media ecosystem in which we all live have been replaced by desire to conform to say what other people were saying and to ratify the view of the tribe and we can go into it again so much of this is related to the rise of the internet and recording in the virtual world is a virtual reporting out in the world heard and encountering other americans and all the complexities and reckoning with essential decency and intelligence your fellowll americans are reporting out in the field from the fewer and fewer journalists, probably because the economics of the business, you do the kind of work as of the journalists were supposed to be the best listeners in thest society, are set, not hearing either on the

right or the left. for people who don't see the world as they do, are singing in is a bit of wave my answer 12: the panel and sigma let me follow-up itself if this is the progressive talking to his self about america of the not really exist, described that america, that they are talking about and another works coming to say that it doesn't reallyly exist but wt is it what is this fiction that they are discussing. >> well there's no way to do this without simplifying oversimplifying but is america in which every republican is a rabid mega publican who is cheering on every most kind of

unsettling or transgressive element of donald trump's movement. that is a very simple statement about but it is also an america and again, this is where there is the old problem of liberalism new york times is probably generations and i certainly confirm that i consider myself the left. although not with the l-uppercase-letter come from the background and with the new problem now much more serious one. bill liberalism you know is very much a coastal reality is a reality that is not terribly interested in what is going on in the middle of the country that he could come is increasingly one that is interesting and what is happening on the internet and i don't think that we really realize how much coverage of the

internet and the sense of what is real is what is happening on the internet as replacement of coverage of their in the real world that is been something that is been very easy for the politicians,y to exploit i mean never manipulate. >> on ask you for your quick reaction just heard. >> will i really really really couldn't. agree more james assessment and when he published the piece i had actually the same time by chance met each other on that exact day before your piece came out i had a chance to read it after we had lunch and we talked but i've been thinking about what happened new york times quite a lot. i was a contributing writer magazine at that same time and it was really well not only what happened with that off james with that was a major and other

writers and myself, do started talking to each other and drafting this letter on free expression open division and ended up running in harper's magazine open letter by a lot of other writers, just trying to make the basic case the really is the kind of formal and informal culture sensorium that was really constricting people's ability to think and disagree in goodab faith freely but then institutions such as the media prominently the media so you know what happened i think actually in retrospect been writing my book about was really emblematic of much larger cultural shift think you are kind of will your were the escape goat in a way that i thank you so an understanding so much of what the institutions are doing.

>> as a conservative, this must be just great like total vindication this what i've always thought about thein media or is it heard or do you find yourself contemplating this trouble these thoughts james moore then the indication. >> mentally the question to my. >> well a little bit of both. his mentor the country so i cannot be too happy about that but i think that i have less - by describing the world that james alluded to in his piece. i think thatin it is one that we see playing out in college campuses now matt alluded to that in his introduction where broadly speaking, and again, it is probably speaking of where words are violence and at times some actualar violence is

justified as resistance. where disagreements on one side are slapper the label of conspiracy theories and withth e terms racist bigots thrown around casually, and attacks of those with whom one disagrees and i think that the result of that has been i think of covid-19, this comes to mind were the times ran pieces again it comes back to senator tom cotton and labeling these views that this may have come from a lab, as a conspiracy theory. what i have seen the result of this is that it is increased distrust for a lot of the country. in elite institutions. there may be good maybe bad i tend to think sad because it's

increasing the distance between americans in the middle of the country and americans on the coast now, they can rightfully say, these people are lying to us.s. they have no idea what they're talking about knowing the term this information and misinformation, is thrown around, totally casually as a substitute for real arguments. from my vantage point is a conservative who has worked in the mainstream realho reportings that i really have seen institutions like the times in the post in the journal, see huge ground to conservative media and i do not know if they are aware of what they're doing because every the biggest stories happening in the country. the times has become a little bit on stories involving transgender, medicine and treatment of transgender young people.

what is happening inop college campuses many cases, and conservative media are in a minute media, the charge of the has to be one of the biggest stories in the country and in t most cases, the mainstream media hasos followed rather than let n that in these this replaces the resources you know, dwarfed ours you know tony will place so i just think that there may be huge stories and huge huge spaces uncovered. and yet there are places to pick them up on the whole it has to be them the enormous stories like were ten more than not being covered from another way this should be simple and want toar well without going too far over into academia and i want to come back to journalism and again some of the things that james raised in his piece. i thought that one of the points you emphasize the various to james was the kind of lovely young people are bringing, to

careers in journalism when they ngstart up now mean, i became a journalist because i could not face law school. and so, i'm a little bit of an outlier nothing i don't know if i am typical but if you asked me why went off became a journalism i would say thatld it was probay more to see the world than to the world. right and i think those are part of the two reasons people become journalists but part of what i was brought up in and i think you were as well as the idea that it was sort of a little bit of a bestowed and that the trade-off you got all that access to exciting personalities and information and experiences was used to the part from the actual conflict that you were causing and you refer to that i thank you so renouncing taking sides. tell us a little bit about why you think that - disappeared what if anything could be done to rebuild it. >> let me slip in a caveat

quickly, that needs to be recognized. there a lot of people new york times doing reallyy great work and a lot of people new york and of the post in lot of people taking physical risk and places like ukraine, and to report the stories of the space in an effort to support that and also what i think is you know some efforts underway. there is one is they'll be let that are there and some signs of that. in checking listen to me as a journalist, my experience was so often to be fortunate to be dropped where was kind of starting over and learning and

coming and having a humbling experience of coming to grips constant with much i did not know about the world. ... e privilege of being a journalist is the world is your school. you kind of never stop learning. you never stop having the license to ask people about anything. it can get on their nerves. the glory of it may have. and the other thing is you nevea had to pretend the world was less complicated than it actually is. obviously the work of journalism is also a work of simplification. you do not have to take a position. and you never had to tell a lie. you did your best to represent the world as it is. and that to me is the trade-off. you do not have the satisfaction

of being anti activist and be ot there on the front lines fighting for change. buter if you were somewhat likee who is not confident of your own opinions to beginon with and the endlessly fascinated by what other people thought and how they came to those conclusions about the world you liked being able to write letters home about what you were w learning. boy, it was a wonderful profession. it changed us some did -- make very much are grounded as a result of what i have always thought of as a fundamental tenets of liberalism. it changed as the internet knocked the economic foundations out from under the businesses people could afford to do less reporting in the real world. as they spent more time reporting on the internet as local journals disappeared.

as people retreated to their cocoons. mike liberalism failed to live up to his own stated principles. in journalism as it failed elsewhere in the world. when i got to the "new york times" opinion section for example, there were 11 columnists one of them was a person of color. two out of 11 were women. two out of 11 were conservatives. i am now trying to make the case for diversity that included bringing more conservatism to the "new york times" fear people could look at me and say you are a hypocrite. so for years, what were you guys doing? you care about it now? that is a fair complaint. there are other fair, i'm trying to give some sense for these

views did not come from nowhere. we have to reckon with our own responsibility for the period in which we were not fully delivering on our own kind of ambitions or aspiration. from what a truly broad diversity of opinion should look like. >> thomas, let me ask you the question this way. if you wanted to create a news organization, a magazine or an institution that was devoted to it james and i are idealizing the right way to do journalism. you think you could find people interested in doing that? were you think you'd get them? >> there are so many people within the organization at that moment in time i was thinking as

james was talking so many people at the time specifically did not agree with what was happening. there was a sense you could not publicly voice which you actually think. i think the first thing you do if you want to cultivate an environment that would make people feel they had the ability to speak forthrightly and honestly and disagree with each other without fear of compromising their livelihood by that would be a cultural change that would find diversity of viewpoints within institutions already. but there would have to be a commitment to a different understanding of what diversity actually is. we often get far too hung up on what looks superficially like diversity mono thought packaged in a slightly different casing. having a bunch of people from the same three schools of the same socioeconomic class.

somehe of them are slightly different ethnic and gender, sexual orientation and background is not what i consider diversity. so they would have to be efforts to reimagine how you will locate different types of raters. how you empower them to speak on behalf of communities. the other thing is there is an understanding, i know for a fact somewhat of african descent in this country there's quite a lot of diversity within black thoughts. there is a kind of narrow idea of who speaks on behalf of the group. to come back to it james was talking about when you are commenting on commentary you have this idea that there is one sense of what moral clarity it means the black community.

it is a very narrow slice that has conversations likece abolishing the police for example. if you had a different understanding of who can speak on behalf of the group you'd be surprised by what kind of ideas you'd get in response to a proposition like getting rid of police forces and communities or people are confronted with high levels of crime and violence. there is much more conversation going on then we have a sense of only cover the commentary itself that makes sense. >> we have already branded joy think you accepted the label of the conservative editor here on the panel. i want to ask you this. do you feel any obligation to liberals writing for you? is that not part of the deal? or is with the free begin about kind of embracing the idea that newspapers or websites or whatever have an ideological orientation and they should go

without.th one reason i ask that let's both in our own history in the 19th century on in some other cultures for example britain. the media culture is more open about politicalal leanings of it media organization. you think the free beacon ought to have a few progressives in their? [laughter] i'm sort of thinking my son is a progressive. [laughter] that is a joke. that is a joke. >> for your son we can make an exception. that is a great question. i do think we are moving toward in era in part led by places like the times that are embracing becoming ideologically liberal places. there is room for different audiological outlets.

no, i don't feel we have an obligation to have conservatives and liberals. but times in the post we do not hold ourselves out asr representatives of a vote all views and mainstream views we come from a center-right perspective our goal is to present people with new informationwo they would not fid elsewhere. e that is the difference between the beacon what we see from the times and post might look at the other outlets i know what you're doing because we do it at the beacon we do some brand ourselves democracy dies in darkness so this is a center of american opinion and we are doing things right down the middle here that grains the gears ofiv conservatives is to e told this is mutual when in

reality it is a mix of opinion and reporting. i will say, increasingly we have the beacon reporter in the audience here. when i interviewed him said i'm not actually a conservative. increasingly there are kids who come to the beacon and in most cases that is fine. they want to write the stories we are interested in having written. there's usually no issue with that there certain principles we are pretty clear about where immovable on. we ii would say strident zionist. but apart from that we are pretty open. >> like a hole in the republic. [laughter] that is inside joke. >> itde has been quite interestg i would say it more and more kids will come and say i'm not necessarily, i don't quite know what i am.

i do think the monoculture is the mainstream outlets is pushing people who are on the center or who do not quite know where they are better curious intellectually curious people into outlets that might brand themselves as conservatives. but are just more tolerant of dissenting views. i see this money speak to college students i spoke to a group of yale college students in a conservative student group. we went around the table and i asked them how to become a part of this group? half the kids at the tables that i'm not a conservative i just reject the monoculture on campus. more and more what i am saying james, you wrote it. these people are talking to themselves and excluding large segments of the public that said don't quite know what i am but i do not want to be a part of that. >> is james i'm going to try

different version of a similar question on you. you go to great lengths in your argument and the sincerity of it is almost overwhelming, pleading for sort of a return to the right weight to do things which you believe in the "new york times" once embracing others once embraced but have drifted away from. what if that is irreversible? is the second best solution for the media as a whole you got the free beacon over here got the post in the times over here. they'll be openly ideological or they will pretend but they will do battle. the new challenge for the reader will be not what you pause but tooo look at the subjective thig and figure out what you think for yourself. but to actually a referee among these competing visions of

reality. >> of that last bit to get the journal's rule? >> i think asking an awful lot of the reader. i think that is the world we are moving toward not living with what you said earlier it's very much like a 19th century version of what that media environment was like it may very well be that 100 year or so. is the anomalous one where we have the rise of idea of objectivity in american journalism. the ambition to separate news and opinion and tore

have the rise of idea of objectivity in american journalism. the ambition to separate news and opinion and to create a foundation of shared fact. so much in the media the reality or definition of news was driven by changes in technology and changes in business model. we even went from a niche industry serving everyone who could afford a printing press could reach a certain number of people it became a mass industry the basis was advertising. you did not want to alienate a

large swath of thee audience. that was the business model idea ofd the objectivity. and would try it -- to be conservatives. they would be liberals there try to set their ideology aside and delivered the news fairly. and at the same time you would have a robust opinion section walled off work many viewpoints were represented. that was the model of the "new york times" was built on for a century. have failed in many ways they're all sorts of problems with that but i do think it created a foundation for a shared basis of fact in this country. and i don't know how the diversity of this country could be a source of strength rather than weakness if we don't have some agreement about what the basic facts of reality are.

that's the one line you quoted me at the beginning which i did a very bad job explaining it i am concerned about. if people believe they are getting the truth but in fact they're being served both eight news report increasingly influenced by people's ideology in the range of debate that does not really reflect where the richness of debate is in this country than they do not really understand what's happening out there in the world. >> knesset wilbur quick thing question just to complete the thought about business model. i am sorry i can bang on about this for too long for this is one of the danger of the subscriber world we have moved into. i got wrong so much else i got wrong i was so excited at the beginning as we move from an advertising based model where everybody was pursuing scale on the internet. what better work for the quality of your product that can be then have an h individual pay you fo. the danger obviously is the best

way to retain the loyalty of your subscribers to reassure them you see the world exactly as they do andct you do not want to upset them. you do now to confront them with confounding news they do not want to hear. we can go into the list of things t they'll be upset aboutr with opinions they would find objectionable. >> at the newspaper be a slower moving tiktok. the algorithm of tiktok is instant in steering you done your rabbit hole the newspaper would lose move slower. thomas i would like to your reaction to this idea may be the second best solution is what the liberal in the conservative it media slug it out. or is there something illiberal about that?

sent illiberal democracy lot more political repression around the country with this left right open slugfest be okay with you? >> that is the way that medialandscape is now. to annt extent. there is something healthy in the kind of new media landscape we have numbers of the new media here in the audience. the free press are doing some kind of critique of the larger institutions. you can triangulate good healthy viewpoints on the variety of

topics.rv i really agree. it's a lot toth keep up with reading. slot to ask of the typical reader. the activists have a point you have more speech than you have ever had. you look back on as an opportunity for having a much better and more vibrant discourse now. we really do need institutions. we need our institutions to be trusted. you can have a lot of value added by smaller independent sub stacks and people with good quality questioning of the

institutions. if you do not have the basic trust thanhe that is a problem. one of the points james made in the piece but can't work openly partisan newspaper paid the 10 million people who subscribe to to lean liberal mostly, they pay for it because they believe it is objective and neutral. they would not want to pay for it if were openly partisan and illiberal. the whole thing is functioning on selling it self as this ideal. >> dear subscribers not think you are neutral? in other words do conservatives papers depend mass not impart

because i also want to know from your point of view "new york times" but advice would you give them i don't think conservative readers of news have that same kind of self regard they did think with their reading is neutral they want to know it's true. they see bias everywhere. when they are reading the beacon they find that a more reliable version never swings in the

other direction. like the self seriousness of the reporters the idea they think they are neutral. it just happened with nbc and our aetna coral wallace going on the air and talk about their sacred airwaves in a badge carrying member of amnesty. i can assure you note on the free beacon is talk about our sacred webspace not saving lives there. that self regard is tiresome to us. there are stories that the mainstream of enormous interest to conservatives but the mainstream is not covered. the one that comes to mind are

claudine gaye, plagiarism story the beacon did the recession at the time and the journal did pick that up. he watched the coverage on cable news it was not like that was bad. they only covered that they don't like black women and they have a problem with black women inha power. they cannot really challenge the facts. like everybody does this. there is an argument over whether this should have been reported at all the quicksilver covering each other's plagiarism. what is your advice to the main stream media? don't be so full of yourselves? >> that's part of it but i'm not quite sure that's fixable. that's hired a different set of people. it target a different set of people who have some cents from talking to people what are the real stories in american a life lifethat people are interested ?

after 10/seven something seven college campuses. i could tell you people are deeply interested in the story. it has been happening for a long time. it's one of the biggest stories in the country but get out there, get onto campuses, stock talk ton students. it is important. that is one. what is happening enormous private foundations have been having these conversations with a lot of people. the rockefeller, the forward, i've gone in search of the wall street journal. i find her glowing profiles they are very powerful. i could come up with. a list of 10 things just do not get covered that are of interest to conservatives. i don't think there's a sense of these big mainstream outlets as much of interest people in the country including the by the administration. other than trump and his criminal problems.

>> this picks up a little bit about what we were just talking about. has long been the case journalist were self-important pompous people. that's not really new unfortunately. just to give you an anecdote i was in a meeting at the post may be five or six years ago. we were talk about the social media presence. i recommended to the group everyone quit twitter. a base it on my personal experience which was -- might mymental health ebbs and flows. [laughter] a very good moment for my mental health was when i quit twitter. suddenly i had more times on my hand but i i was more relaxed i had did not worry about the thing hanging all the time furthermore i was not having the waste of time away from real journalism. i made that pitch to the group. the intern spoke up and said

chuck, you already have a brand. which i did not know. i thought to myself a brand? yes younger journalists are still establishing our brands and that's why we need twitter. talk to me about the part of analysis that has to do with the sense young journalists have a personal branding exercise for them. >> this is why i say but exactly the same conversation you just described. it's not bad faith it is the incentives that exists. first of all this is the kind of thing in the old "new yorks times" ran in the head copy editor would circle it in your copy and said this is the language of advertising. we do not use this language.

that is what an old crank i am it still shocks meat we talk about ourselves this way and journalism. i think it is terribly corrupting. i don't think they are wrong for their right to be worried about it. they need to build their r prest in social media they have seen r people get rewarded. they see their bosses are scared of those people are not willing to stand up to them. you start over rebuilding the culture from the ground up. it is hard. it is i hard work. it's not impossible. it's going to take some leadership. you have to make people feel they can succeed from having a million followers on twitter.

that they can be rewarded for doing work that challenges people's view of reality rather than reinforces them. and then grow within the institution. over the long haul. that is hard but it is doable. >> a solute nodding in vigorous agreement. what was going through your mind? >> we engage in massive global psychological experiment over the past decade and change with big social media platforms inside and outside of the media. we allowed ourselves to expand. certain journalists who are supposed to be reporting on recovering the news to become extraordinarily followed on twitter and other platforms to

the point they are more followes than the publications they write for. so you have some people who were too big to keep in line with the goals and objectives of the institution when they veered apart from their own personal ambitions or biases. it is hard to put that back in the tube. if i were giving advice i would get rid of things that seems to be more trouble than it is worth. i would have a policy you could never make a decision based on something that happened a blowup that happens on social media if you don't react immediately things are not substantial they go away. the girl that said that to

you -- five years ago was told make it off of twitter now for dwight are you on twitter? i said by the same issue i would not be on twitter either. you do have the census to make sure you survive if you are laid off at an institution. it's precarious at a lot of these places now. you have to be able to take your work elsewhere. often times if you have a largel following on twitter or elsewhere that insulate you from job insecurity. it makes the culture healthier if it were economically more viable for more people to have jobs they could count on. it could grow their a live and die by that. >> the biggest story of the last few days at least obvious is the collapse of the bridge in

ibaltimore. a terrible thing. but also, in a funny way a counterpoint to everything we are talking about. it was immediately clear what had happened, right? the american public got immediately and accurately informed almost in real time this major bridge had just collapsed because of the boat bn into it unfortunately. and i wonder if part of our problem is that events like that are now so effortlessly communicated accurately. that used to be a big production for a newspaper reporter to get out to theet river and find a payphone to call that back to te news desk because it was really happening. the amount of timeou and energye have two devote to telling people is so small that we are filling it up with the elaboration and the commentary.

>> one thing about twitter in social media it really quick? i have to admit i don't totally understand it. i have never been a big social mediars person. i don't quite understand the brand thing. and how you separate someone's brand firm they are really good and do amazing work. my guidance to reporters has always been you want a brand? it's in breaking news and doing amazing work andnd that will be your brand. to the extent of people have a brand that is separate from that i can think of a few were people do very little work but have high online presence big online presence those are not brand that i would pay a salary for.

so i don't totally understand that. the distinction between do your work, keep your head down in your brand will develop. and also, i thought in reporting it wasn't supposed to be about us and that should be the guidance to. people. over 40 years maybe it will become. maybe you will become known for shedding light on what's happening out there then world. i do feel like this is been toxic and distorting. twitter rewards speed, toxic, paid its speed to be snarky and opinionated. this stuff takes time and is expensive but it's just not what twitter rewards by the way the feedback you get on their instrument a distorted world the sod at alls reflective of the real world. i do think it is poisonous.

often i feel wrong the reporters at the beacon do not listen to me about this. but i still think i'm right. i still think i'm right to request to heck with the bridge. >> i do don't eat up too much time for its totally true about the bridge. however there are a lot of other stories it would take a lot of time and effort to t get to the bottom of it. but are not being covered. i can think a lot of stories about the bided white house that is opaque in many, many ways. particularly how the president is managed. what is it exactly several think the stories been told. they require a lot of international stories. so some events are communicated much more easily there's a whole lot the require in-depth reporting that we do not often see being done.

>> and venues the privilege of the church or tell a quick anecdote before we get to questions. one of my earliest jobs is in my early 20s i went off to peru to work as a freelancer journalist. i got a job for the english language newspaper in peru. which was appended to an english language publication for the business community which covered politics, business and everything else in english and they charge a lot of money for it and they got a lot of money for it. the lesson that taught me is the rest of the press improves very flawed political scene at thatta time was totally partisan, bought off, corrupt, everything else but. >> might mom is from their head mike cousin linda behind bars. [laughter]

>> the point being they needed foreigners to tell them what was actually goingoi on. literally in another language. people who really need accurate objective information would pay a high premiumor for to get it from these outsiders from these people -- make a push came to shove good move to chile and in the end they had to do. i sort of feel like we might find ourselves needing something like that here in america. there might be this niche. the men and women from outside speaking hopefully in english but maybe not. maybe they can use another language, german? >> it might be actually. [laughter] with that i think will open it up to questions.

who is the boss of this? are we okay on time? we have until about 6:30 p.m.? we are in charge of microphone kuester. >> me and my other associate. >> what is your name? okay. why don't you go first, the woman in thehe back. i am a college student drink my semester abroad money i met i'm atgeorgetown, university. on to say about colleges there's plenty of nuance. into those debates. as an outsider to me it seems liberals and conservatives start from very, very different premises.

here's complete opposite. once you get into the discussion people have a lot to say is very similar. very sound judgment. i wish. people would find that n a broader scale. where do they overlap between the two sides? and how can it be uncovered more in a broader scale? >> thank you. he wants to take that went on? [laughter] the overlap in terms of ideology, in terms off policy. >> in terms of ideology which may be can be the start of a bigger agreement.

maybe in terms of ideology. sentimental i think there's a lot of overlap actually. many respects the media s exaggerates with the fun house mirror of ideological splintered kind of publications that we present reflexive back to americans a lot of the time. an image is not comports with the nuance of their own lives. basically decent people want the best for the country. looking for overlap. also if you ask the average person there of course we want diversity of views. of course i want to hear the other side has to say. when you're confronted with that

you feel differently. at least i do but it's hard hard work at the counterintuitive idea we find obnoxious and in some ways it is a more immediately recognizable point of view that's dangerous they should not have to hear it. that's much more dangerous point of view in the long haul. but once you talk people through it you talk to the principal's. my deal is in general. there actually is a lot of overlap. >> the question over there? correct thank you. my name is jacob i am from sweden i'm a guest here in your country. what you describe, james, about the times being a voice for their own or readership of

progressive valleys very much describe some of the newspapers that leading newspapers in my own country of sweden and also the rest of europe. for example a couple of years ago your former president talked about lisa horrible example of criminality on the rise. plenty of newspapers wanted to go to school with him on how sweden is safer. but at the same time we have a lot of criminality of planet -based violence. with migration everything that comes with that. that kind of speak what's talked about as immediate being the new priesthood teaching people their values instead of reporting on what is actually happening. i was one of you could speak more to the international trend? i'm trying to touch here it's not just the "new york times."

it's not just here in the states it's also in europe in the broader sense. >> i cannot claim to be an expert on the european media. my senses that has been ever of us. there's much more of theth american journalistic tradition and the emphasis that is been placed in a a mainstream institution on this idea of objectivity with all of its flaws. every generation discovers objectivity is a myth one way or another and folk set that aside. but in some ways the european model has been more openly ideological all the way long. thomas you know more about that. >> a gentleman here.

the former president became well-known for his criticism of the media. particularly with the failing "new york times." did that have any impact on the reporting or the culture of the media? >> i am happy to take that. i was covering the white house at the time. it was quite interesting within the white house press corps mysense was the president overt and provocative attacks on the press gave the press, they felt, white house correspondents gave them license to take an opinion and take a stand.

her trump the right loves to hate the media. it was a wonderful political talking point for him. for the press these guys and that briefing room and everybody else they got enormously famous. the more famous than they had been going in. standing up, talking about the threat how many books did you see come out from him and all these other people? their time covering trump the courage they surged standing up to his bolding with this, that, and the other. there is a mutually beneficial back-and-forth that was politically beneficial to trump and financially and personally beneficial to the reporters gave them a license to depart from this sort of objective stance they may have come in with it. >> if i could take a second to us james about that.

i think that is a rubicon was crossed people started in the press to say the word so-and-so rylied to us very often trump ld but now we are pretty free about that generally. i seem to recall a front page story in the times i'm going to forget hise name. the news stories announced we had to play by different rules under trump. >> covering trump is a real challenge. it is hard. it isll hard when somebody is sh an unconventional politician. we obviously -- all politicians bend the truth but how he was from fact.

presented journalists with a real conundrum. too simply report what he was saying. it's a bit of a falls taurus that's out there for it as a reporter you are not a stenographer. you always make clear when someone is not telling the truth. but it became more like a cause to say he lied. to use that very, very direct language. i know the times really struggled with the question when he said lied, windy or not? there are moments when they did. i think they actually pulled back from that as i recall. partly because that language is so loaded. it short-circuits that readers ability to really think about it and reach their own conclusion. and i think that is the case where the times rightly retreated from making such a

clear political statement about the president. >> according to legend karl bernstein always wanted to build a save the new story nixon was guilty. like that phrase was restrained from doing that by his editors headed by ben bradley on the theory of we would let the jury decide that. assuming that legend is true and i think there is some, truth to it. times have changed. >> i really do think it comes down the world of journals to tell the reader what to think or help them read for themselves i'm in the latter camp. because that's what i think people want to do they do not want to be led the old struggle that we overcame in the 1920s i think but now we are back to again a 19th century model or morning to tell them what they think because we don't trust them to arrive at the right

conclusions otherwise. quick scrabble question over r here. >> this is been very interesting. my name is chris by thehe way vy much mainstream media. my question, you raise the issue of business models. it seems like a business model hasn't crisply favored the balkanization of the media. that's really what we are looking at today. the landscape in which so many have slotted into one point in the ideological spectrum. is there a business model you think can't restore a centrist position that can be more diverse of opinions? that could be more objective or is that idea shot? >> anybody want to? >> the economist.

>> the economist it takes strong positions on things and has an editorial line. i think it is a superhard problem. i don't think it's an easy answer. think the cable industry in a lot of ways lead the wage this new media reality we are living with. you can build a pretty big business reloadable business you do not need 100 million people are one 50 million people. that's the extent any has been saving media particularly now as a safe play is to occupy an ideological niche. i think it's possible. there are publications out there that are successful journal enterprises in the wall street

journal is a pretty good example right now in its news report. i think the politico is another example of a publication that does a very good job of covering if you agree with me on this. does a- good job of covering te politicali landscape. it is succeeding as it business. not a massive scale but succeeding. i think it is doable. but it is not the safe way. the biggest problem i think the biggest problem is not talked about so much is the wipeout of local journalism. which has deprived americans of accountability journalism but they can also see and touch and believe in. that gives them some reason because they know whether or not they can see their own community when this is a good job are quick state's provides the

talent pipeline and no one's figure that out. that's a big problem. dispersant right here in the front brake. >> thank you very much. i meet journalists i also promises friend and neighbor. i am in journalism. i find that so many of my colleagues are so incredibly conformist. i don't know why. you got into journalism because you like to travel. or you are interested in seeing the world or curious. i got into journalism because i hate authority and i'm here to cause trouble. and a lot of these people do not have that same troublemaking instinct that i have. that was intrinsic to journalists i like making

problems or politicians. we don't and w i don't know why but it's easy to have a contempt just why don't they just join while they become actives for the republican party instead off pretending there journalists? i just not do not understand me but you will explain it to me, i am new here. >> i do think part of what ails journalism it has become a very respectable profession. to be a newspaper is just a cut above i don't know a numbers runner. i believe woodward and bernstein for that. making everyone a movie star. bernstein was old-school in that

way.y. i'll take that more of a competent question. we have time for couple more. >> sued institutions aresuit ine interested in the pursuit of truth tend to be at nonprofits like universities, think tanks? should newspapers be nonprofits? >> we are but not intentionally. [laughter] that is a good question. anyone want to take that? >> i thought about how these things could actually work better. audience capture was already discussed. may be there does have to be some type of government intervention. that seems like that would rage at large swaths of the country

pbs is no longer trusted by a lot of the country. it is considered to be associated with one party in the binary government were to be invested in the paper of records that would ease tensions. it seems to me and i work at the atlantican. it seems like you need malevolent oligarchs. [laughter] too hopefully of the public's interest at part. and it relieve you of the need to cater to an audience who captures your ability to objectively report on issues that might anger them. >> one more question. guess, over here. >> thanks everybody. and it academic and there are

cameras i will leave my name out of it for now may be. there seems to be a consensus that things are not good among all the panelists. i wonder is it good things have gotten so bad? and might it be better if things got even worse? forr example, thinking about wht went down at the times. i regarded that with very mixed feelings at the time and after the fact as well. but over all i was pleased as you might not have been. sorry adam. adam is here. that is becauseca i see the probably have been discussing. i think at a certain point charles spoke very nicely. younger people in particular are more concerned with changing the world and understanding it. it seems like the root of the problem lies higher education.

it is very hard to package what goes on in the classroom. what was on in faculty meetings, with goes on search committees and academic journals. he remains under the surface or house for very long time. but when the "new york times" said that match to its credibility in public this is very visible to everybody. i think james that some point mentioned a counter revolution might be coming. that can only come once the revolution is visible to provoke a reaction. my question for everyone or anyone who wants to take it out is, a good thing things have gotten so bad and might hope they get worse. it sounds like a question lennon might ask.

he wants to take that on? welcome happy to offer brief thoughts on this question are the one that preceded it i think they are related. business model is a problem i agree. i don't believe it'ss journalism of newspapers became nonprofits that would solve the problem. i don't believe universities are engaged in the pursuit of truth right now that's part of the problem. my sense is with the problems arts k-12 is exacerbated then and colleges what is really the problem is the training ground of the country's elites are deeply deformed and as a result it's not just happening in journalism but yes it's happening journalism it's playing in academia and major corporations.

black rocks from the biggest financial corporations, hedge funds all over the country. google, nai, we are seeing it everywhere. i do think seeing the testimony for the whole country to see these people are impoverished. peopleti fall all over them and bribed their children to get into. that is eye-opening. i will have benefits. certainly for me, i grow without getting too personal but a ahousehold i was highly valued too much an ivy league school. i have no desire to fall all over myself the advocate into such an institution. i don't think there's a lot of valuable things going on. the training ground for our

elites will reteach our elites. what we teach young people the value needs to change. before that changes whoever goes to work people are going to hire into the "new york times" or post to the journal it's not going to change. people are everything. >> and went to once again exercise the privilege of the church to conclude on the following note. i'm going to go over to my earlier time in peru withgo another anecdote. the guy who ran this operation was from britain. it was a fleet street or of the old school pretty giving my first big assignment which was to write about how the impact of crime and terrorism was affecting the business community. it was a big issue at the time. so he sat me down i admitted i s newly minted from harvard. but a very full of myself. how would you approach a story?

what you think people want to know? i proceeded to give him the answer you would've expected from person like that. i went on for a good 15 minutes. he looked to be and said no, no, no, people want to know what is going on, you know? that has stayed with me throughout my entire career. that is what people want to know. people want to know what is going on. they want to be able to rely on the person who is communicating to them what is going on. they don't want to note my deep feelings about this, that, the other thing. people want tout know wha