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it shows that the technologies proposed including the carbon capture and pecially clean hydrogen will be important to achieving a lower-cost pathway to deep, deep decarbonization.

while it is not the result of the study, the analysis strongly indicates that expanded transmission capacity, both in state and regional, which will enable reaching regions with higher renewable potential and allowing access to energy from across diverse geographic areas will be important to reliably eting colorado's electric needs. colorado's clean energy transition highlights not only the opportunity for states to improve reliabilansilience by switching to lower cost renewables but it also demonstrates the important role for the federal government in supporting states with this transition. including perment colorado, as i said will need to triple its wind and are working on streamlining state proposals and policies for transmission. we believe similar action at the federal level will beant. colorado will support federal support for categorical exclusion for geothermal. we support the big wires act which will enable the expansion

of transmission that is necessary for clean energy development and we support continued investment in building sufficiency through rebates, tax credits, and support building codes. i thank you for the opportunity to testify here today and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you, mr. myers. mr. hay. mr. myers, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you ranking member and members of the subcommittee. as with ms. pridemore i too am a state-wide electric commissioner at the arizona commission. we are a bit unique in that only 13 states only elect their commissioners. the acc and its responsibilities are also constitutionally established. in arizona, we have a truly diverse topography and climate. most of us think of us as a desert the reality of us is that we have 78,000 feet of elevation, lush green forest, multiple seasons, and regular snow. this makes one size fits all approach almost impossible if we are being true to our

constitutional obligations to ensure utilities provide reliable and affordable service. while i cannot speak on behalf of the commission and the views i express are my own, i can tell you that the curr t views tend to favor and all of the above approach to electricity generation. we have approved almost 2000 megawatts of solar plus battery connections in the last year while at the same time approving hundreds of megawatts of thermal generation. many of the challenges we face moving forward with regard to reliable generation center around early forced retirement of coal plants without equate replacement. personally, it pains me to have to prove accelerated cost recovery for early shutdown of coal plants while at the same time authorizing recovery on new purchase power agreements be are ultimately responsible for keeping the lights on, we also have to approve the building of reliable dispatchable generation in the form of natural gas. that means our ratepayers are paying three times for the same had by simply keeping our existing generation online until natural retirement or even better

some of the problems we face are early burdensome regulations in the form of early forced retirement and reliable generation, roadblock after roadblock with regard to transmsiuction and interference with vegetation management. a perfect example is the sunz project. the project began 16 years ago and is still not do all the red tape and lawsuits. another example is renewable energy mandates which force our gy at long- term contracts and cost our ratepayers four times with the gy and it will get worse over the next 15 to 20 years as the price of solar continues to drop. other problems are delayed development and commercialization of new technologies such as small modular reactors, micro-, nuclear, and hydrogen, which are simply in their iny. infrastructure to supply natural gas. we cannot allocate much more to turbines ekneeded to complement

the intermittent renewable resources we are adding however we do have options. while they will not appear overnight or even in the next decade, we are moving fast and furious onto new hydroponic basins. we are actively engaging in discussion to use salt caverns that are primed for natural gas storage and possibly hydrogen storage. this type of storage has the ability to provide buffering for the entire west coast and parts of mexico. we are also working with morgan to help their endeavor of getting more and larger pipelines built from texas all the way to california. while this is not a perfect solution, large pipelines allow for line packing that also act as a buffer. very active in day ahead markets. it appears we have less interest for many other reasons you heard back in september of issues. however, i have personally been very active in the markets tara development plus advocacy and resources for natural gas. a day ahead market has shown that in almost all simulations with or without the inclusion of washington and california,

result in savings for the utility customers. a day ahead market is being viewed as a possible stepping- stone for a full-fledged rto. it will also help us determine appropriate transmission. while arizona has many transmission lines in development, it is important to work with our neighbors to determine what is best in regard to long-term transmission suitable for region. thank you again for allowing me to testify today and i look forward to answering all of your questions. >> thank you, mr. myers. i think all of the witnesses into the question and answer portion of the testimony. i will recognize myself and then a ranking member. we will go back and forth that way on each side l we have exhausted all the members. i will recognize myself for five minutes for questions. commissioner pridemore, nuclear energy as one of the most reliable sources of energy, and also one of the most impactful ways to reduce emissions, can you talk about how the vertically integrated model in your state supports the integrated resource planning

and the new reactors? >> yes, sir. thank you for the question plant vocal, once unit 4 is fully actualized, will beme generating plant in the nation. there are currently four nuclear reactors there they'll be just under 446 megawatts of power. it is splitting adams next step is to connect it to the grid. we get an enormous amount of long-term benefit from 24/7 carbon free power as well as our two nuclear units at plant hatch. it allows us to provide ad energy that we can marry with renewables. we can marry with natural gas generation to be able to help us manage our extort and reload growth. we also have the great benefit from a transmission standpoint, from where we put nuclear we build less transmission. and there is a cost consideration for that for customers.

it is immeasthe 20 year planning process that we go through in georgia. we have a comprehensive integrated resource plan for how we generate and how we vocal edits a60 to a80 lifespan, it will be around long after i am gone. >> some of the most affordable and reliable electricity. do you think this model better supports long-term affordability and can you explain why? >> yes, sir. i appreciate my colleagues in states that are part of a rto or iso. in georgia, we are not. to get the economy to scale to work with the 41 co-ops as well as the 49 municipal so that we have a system that works together. we are not building transmission lines or even generation. when you consider the integrated approach that we have taken, it has allowed us to get the economy to survey large load base. i am very proud of the fact

that our market structure has stood the test of time. it allows us to not only generated what is needed in the state, but to interconnect with the five neighboring regions to help them when they need . >> yeah. thank you for that. mr. houston, coal adopt clients' technologies would have dire impacts and reliability and affordability. you mentioned that in indiana. you mention the impact to reliability from a proposed agency action like epa's clean powerplant 2.0. the grid act would ensure federal agencies cannot penalize before assessments. how can the grid act help promote reliability and protect against generation retirement? >> well, the way i understand it, it makes sense to have the economic regulator have a window into what the environmental regulator is doing simply from the standpoint of accountability. it is all the federal government. and getting the kind of

exposure from both perspectives i think makes sense for ratepayers, as tricia just mentioned. in integrated resource planning, utilities have either engaged in a 20 year horizon look at the way the future will unfold and then developed a preferred portfolio for which then they may seek certificat of public convenience for new generation to replace retiring generation. the way that the epa is doing things at this and this is the reason why we express reservations about the greenhouse gas role, is because it turns that on its side. it both caus compliance problems, it causes the 20-your integrity of the planning process, significant problems, and if it winds up having generation assets that are already in the ground to make additional investments that ratepayers have to pa is a triple whammy. so i think that the concept -- while i am not an elected official and i am appointed by suggestion

that you make it sound like common sense to me. >> thank you so much. can you talk about pre-mature retirement of baseload resources and makes the system less reliable? >> all right. as i mentioned in my opening statements, ratepayers are paying three times for the same generation and retiring reliable generation for unreliable -- you know -- and reliable of unfavorable is just bad. i mean it is common sense that you have to have a backup plan. so you have to create more dispatchable generation but since they are idled, you know so that you can use it whenever the sun goes down the wind does not blow. we don't have a lot of wind in arizona but you have to have generation available online. >> yeah. that wind starts at zero every day and ends at zero.

i will now recognize the ranking member for five minutes. >> thank you so much, mr. chairman. we will be hearing an undercurrent of the myth that if you are going to move to renewable energy that you are going to have to sacrifice resiliency and reliability. so mr. hey, i want to ask you just very briefly, have you and your study found that to be true and how can we maintain the utmost in reliability and resiliency while still transitioning to these various ambitious goals that our state is doing? >> thank you, representative degette. no. we required all our scenarios to reliability standards, and what we found is across the board all of the scenarios actually met those reliability do that? the chairman just said the sun goes down at night mr. myers just said we do not have a lot of wind in arizona. so especially when you're looking nationwide at different

states with different sources, how do you do that? >> representative, i would agree with my colleagues on the panel but the planning these other states has a robust resource planning process for our commission and demonstrate how they are going to both the carbonized and keep rates affordable, and it is through that process and today wind and solar actually in colorado are coal units. they found that retiring two of our older coal units, 1 and 2 imply bro, could result in as as to $2 $400 million in savings $2 customers as a result for china's units and replacing them with lower costs. >> but i am going $2assume that you would not be telling ms. pridemore or mr. houston or mr. myers that the exact mix that we are using and colorado would work in their states. >> absolutely not.

that is why we modeled all the scenarios that we did. one was wind and solar batteries only and one involve small modular reactors. one is just what is the most cost-effective basket of resources and in that scenario it was actually clean hydrogen as i said in my opening remarks as a result of the tax credits. so there are multiple pathways to help the carbonized a grid and i would encourage my colleagues to lookpathways. >> and just so you know, at least from the democratic side of the aisle, mr. myers, you'll be happy to know this, we are not talking about a national one size fits all where we are mandating what people need to do to get to zero carbon emissions by 2040 or whatever the date is. what we are trying to do is incentivize folks to come up with their own plans like colorado has. and so, mr. hay, i know you have been involved for a long time in this field. do you talk to

your colleagues in other states and our other states developing these kinds of planes and what kind of advice can you give to them? presentative. i agree. colorado does not enforce particular resources on any one utility. we really have an outcome- focused policy framework in the state of colorado where we have partnered with different utilities to give them different opportunities. i do talk to my colleagues across the country and some of them are planning for decolonizing their grades and utilization of new electricity buildings and some are not. but i would encourage them to really look at the possibility of shifting to lower-cost renewables. >> right. and one last thing. you raised something that is really critical as we move towards decarbonization, and at is permitting or firm. because we have to be able to get the transition that we need and we have to be able to locate the sources.

i only have a little bit of time left so let me just make a commercial announcement for my colleague mr. peters, because mr. peters is going for a bipartisan effort towards and i think it would be great if we could work on legislation and try to pass this congress because that will really enable us to get to a carbon free future but also grid reliability and resiliency , and with that, mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thanks for holding today's hearing at this to our witnesses for being with us today. i know members of this committee say that northern ohio make it about everything from steel to glass to giocks to tires and you name it. we make it. we consume a lot of energy to do that. we have 86,000 manufacturing jobs. when i go back to 2014 with the vortex that we had, it was pretty close that people were concerned across the state that

they were going to go to blackouts and brownouts but we had none. every power station was up and generating at that time. today though we have got a situation where i'm not sure we could do that policing these power generation stations going off-line. i have a lot of questions in my last four minutes or so. i would like to ask as many as i possibly cation, do we need more power less power? >> more power, sir. >> thank you. and when you're talking about your demands in energy, and this is coming up frequently though from the data center, are we going to need more power less when we have these data more power. >> because i saw statistics probably doubling that what we have right now. you also mention your testimony about it on the solar side and we are a firm believer and the energy policy and having in the mix out there but i am just kind of curious. in your testimony you're talking about battery backup.

how much power do you have in backup from the georgia we have a prescribed 80 megawatts of battery storage. now for review in a case. but, sir, our challenge with batteries has been supply chain issues, and accessibility of the batteries have been a big issue for us and not to mention the cost yourfriend mentioned hydrogen. they are very young. and with that comes an ex- ordinary cost thatme cojust ask on that? pardon me for interrupting. the timeline on ch time would that be? 10 hours? 12 hours? how many hours do you think it would be for the power needs? >> that depends on the overall storage needs of the battery itself. you can see five hours. 24 hours. it depends upon the actual battery. >> well, thank you. can i also ask you, do we need mo more. >> you mention in your

testimony that the state was in the top five affordable, and now your 29th in 2022. what about business development? do they look at that? businesses stay in the states? the manufacturing side? is that up to your state on my western side? and the question is are you seeing a change out there with manufacturers looking at the power? >> not to impugn the state of ohio as our nextdoor neig are the highest manufactt of population in the country and like ohio have enormous steel production in northwest indiana and steel production elsewhere in the state. manufacturing and melting metals and moving metals requires a tremendous amount of development standpoint, that is important to have grid stability along with

reliability and resiliency to maintain a manufacturing base. you are moving the later with 40 tons of molten leve supply interrupted. it is the same kind of thing that would happen with chip manufacturing. they need significant amounts of energy that is on interrupted. and so that is where grid stability or quality -- sorry to interrupt. let me ask this real quick. when you're talking about our meeting with pgm, are they telling you you need more power or less power right now? >> more. >> okay. thank you. commissioner myers, we have only got about 33 second. do we need more power less power? >> cdefinitely more. >> you also mentioned about your data centers. will account for 75% of your energy growth in your state. will you need more power because of that? >> we will need much more power. >> in my last 15 seconds, can

you tell me real briefly, how is this issue permitting? is it good, bad, indifferent? >> i think i covered that in the opening statements. ,16 just for permitting is ridiculous. >> real quick. when you're looking at 16 years of that how much more cost went into those 16 years? >> that is to be determined but a lot. >> i yield back. >> i will goto for five minutes. >> thanks, mr. chairman. thanks, mr. witness. i would say it is ridiculous and inexcusable and i would love to work with you and everyone here. that regional transition line is something i want to talk about today. i ree with my republican colleagues on one thing. we need to get serious about the resource adequacy problem facing this country. we have recognized unprecedented growth from ev's, a.i., manufacturing, and as well as growth in both urban and rural areas. so in talking about a long-term energy while we reduce emissions, the committee needs to finally to talk about

transmission and the grid and our generation mix. and what combination of approaches work best. me i congratulate you on the work you havein colorado. multiple analyses from m.i.t. and columbia have shown that the big wires act which i senator hickenlooper introduced would save customers hundreds of millions of dollars while keeping the lights natural disasters and other challenges. these costs and reliability benefits are driven by the ability of high demand we use energy from other regions that do not need it at that time. so that means communities across the country using inexpensive iowa wind, arizona solar, or whatever access generation folks are willin i also want to emphasize that electrons are resource neutral. all types of generation whether fossil or renewable need transition to connect to the grid and connect to customers. so a lot of you have said, and i think this is understandable, that you want to have enough in- state generation to serve your load without relying on other regions for your energy needs.

but right now while winter storms and energy events with the lights keep going out, study after study keep saying if we had a little bit more transmission capacity we could have kept the lights on while saving money for the customers and in some cases even saving lives. mr. houston, i understand that indiana is a member of two ility entities. i was happy to see the organization of pgm states a redoubling of efforts for inter- regional transmission planning. did you see that letter? >> yeah. >> you agree that more interregional transmission would better protect your five pillars that guide policy? >> i think regional planning makes a lot of sense. >> ye >> ms. pridemore, i understand that we need to build more generation to meet energy demand but in the medium to long-term with the growth that georgia is seeing -- congratulations -- are you going to be able to have 100% of your energy demand all the time because you said you have

five connections to other regions? >> yes mr. peters. we connect to five other regions but the compact holds with our vertically integrated utilities that we generate what we consume inside the city of georgia. u mentioacs and forced outages earlier. you can look at the last three winter storm incidents and the number of blackouts and outages we had were so minimal. it was just those that trees and localized events. >> do not believe we will need to invest in transmission generation storage to meet demand? >> we already do. >> you call for permitting reform for pipelines inimony but not for transmission. are you satisfied with the federal transmission planning process? >> yes. i am satisfied with what tisfied with the conditions by which georgia manages transmission. >> mr. myers, you are obviously not satisfied with what has happened with your line. can you tell me how long it has taken for that line to be built

d at happens if you're unable to build it? >> well, i think it has been about 16 years since it was initially proposed and it is -- what happs is we don't get a path from new mexico over to arizona to transmit the majority which is wind power ne that transmits power across state lines there. what happens there is probably not too much for arizona because a lot of that power is going to california. it is destined for california. but is a transmission between states. >> it is frustrating you. right? >> it is because we have multiple commissions that have had to go through this commissions process over and over again and it keeps changing because the federal law is changing or whatever the case may be. lawsuits. tribal lawsuit is one. that is the latest. >> well, i would say that en you look at the conclusions of m.i.t., the big

wires that produce electricity how keeps the light on for ping that we can pursue it as well as permit for do more interregional transmission. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> i now go to the committee chair for five minutes. >> my home ste of washington is blessed with abundant, clean, affordable, reliable, dispatchable hydropower. and, yet, today, we have secret deals by the biden administration that aim to breach some of the dams that are in my district which is only going to further limit this abundant source of clean energy. commissioner myers, your testimony mentions that as more utilities for electricity, there's less available for everyone else to meet their needs. you also talk about the loss of reliable resources like coal and a limited supply of natural gas in arizona. a public utility commission how important is generation to meet growing electricity demand and u agree

that we need more, not less reliable generation like what comes from the river dams? >> 100%. and i will add that arizona does rely a lot on hydropower and some of it comes from the pacific you know? down to california of course with that stipulation. >> yes. and sometimes california tries to it from us in that process. moving on, how can commissioners work to protect existing infrastructure to make sure there is enough dispatchable generation? >> how can we protect? well, we are doing it right now. we are coming to you sayingcannot have these roles that take away hydropower. we need to ease up on epa restrictions. that is how we protect our energy grid by saying making sure our id does not go away without reliable replacement. >> mr. houston and mr. myers, assuring fair and affordable rates is central to your jobs and state public utility

commissioners, as state legislators and federal policies press to increase intermittent renewable resources over more reliable impacts that you are seeing on your responsibilities and authorities, and who ultimately pays for these policies? ms. pridemore? >> thank you, ma'am. i would like to start with who pays for it. americans pay for at. customers pay for it. especially hurts low to moderate income folks. this especially hurts citizens. this redundant generation and additional transmission that is being built to supply low-cost solar rays in rural areas and able to move that power back to, you know, major power- producing centers, that isive. and considering it is a time when americans are hit with inflation, it is just too much. we are asking too much right

now. we are getting to cleaner sources. i think sometimes we spend a lot of time spiting about the speed by which we get there. >> thank you. mr. houston? >> well, i echo commissioner pridemore has said. it is the ratepayers that ultimately pay and i would add to it that in every field hearing that we do when there is a case before us, the overwhelming message is exactly what she just said about low and moderate income families. they are the ones that are most hit by any basic utility increase. they are living on fixed incomes. they don't have the ability to deviate from those fixed incomes with discretionary income the way that maybe people who are more >> thank you. >> so we are very, very sensitive about what washington does and how impact those ratepayers. >> mr. myers, i am actually going to ask you another

question. the electric system in the west is becoming more interconnected and what happwashington state or california may affect arizona's ability to supply reliable and affordable power. can you briefly explain the governance issues with california, the grid operator, and how they harm grid operators in races like arizona or washington state ly on california to govern the grid? >> my personal opinion is we cannot. there is not a big appetite for allowing california to run in the day ahead market. california has supremacy clauses in their legislation or privacy. so everything else has to be centered around california. if we have a problem they will make a change only if it benefits california. and that is a huge problem for us. we also do not believe in their governance structure. that they can regulate power. i mean just look at how much of a bang up job they have done keeping their own lights on. there are not too many lights are happy to hand over control

of their po >> okay. thank you. my time is expired. i will yield back. >> recognize the ranking member of the committee. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. hay, i want to address colorado's view on the epa rules and some of the other state represented here. i first wanted to touch on the epa's proposed powerplant emissions you state that the head of colorado's energy office provided comments to the epa that said even absent the rule, s utilities will be in compliance with proposed standards. for a state like colorado that is already on its way to meeting its n energy goals, can you talk about some of the benefits that colorado expects to see from the proposed epa rule? >> thank you, representative pallone. i think one of the biggest things that will benefit colorado this morning is more support for clean energy and

carbon capture which again in our modeling other kinds of resources that will help us get that path to decarbonization and for us that technology support and driver in the epa rule, which, you know, as that comes into effect will help reduce the cost of those technologies is really a big benefit to the state. nted to touch on your statement that colorado is well on the weight to touching energy targets without needing the epa's roll. how do they show that even a business as usual situation massive increase due to the cheaper cost of renewals relative to natural gas. >> thank you, representative. you know, the first step in that process has really been getting all of our utility to get to at least a 80% emissions reduioon track. they will get to about 86% renewable as they meet that pollution reduction requirement. so that study is really taking that next step from that high 80% range and looking out towards carbonization. and sell what we did in the

model and as we looked at different scenarios and different pathways, but that business as usual case is really fascinating because we did not anticipate the result. what we got back from the modeling was that if we simply take what we are fleet to transition to newer technologies for gas, put out some older plans and bring on some newer plants, that that process gets usto about a 97% emissions reduction in state and a overall reduction of so, really have can help move us forward to get to those system requirements. >> i went to highlight a part of your testimony where you mentioned that colorado is convincing some of its utilities to participate in regional and what are the benefits if colorado utilities were to particate these markets? >> thank you. and, yes. we do have a statutory requirement in colorado ities

have to be organized in a wholesale market by 2030 unless there are findings that it is not in the public interest. we have been participants in and helped conduct a number of studies. one partnership with the public utilities commission and one in partner with four other western states. all of the studies have suggested that there are hundreds of millions of dollars in financial benefits to share power across different parts of the western interconnect. those studies look at different footprints. and so really it starts customers. but secondarily it gives us the ability to access more renewable energy across the west and to share colorado's renewable energy was states >> all right. last thing. i wanted to ask about the grid resiliency funding that colorado received from the bipartisan infrastructure law. by my count, colorado utilities have received just over $25 million. e awards to aid the work that colorado utilities are doing to mitigate

the impact of wildfires and enhance reliability? >> i can and thank you again for the question. wildfires are an important part of what is happening in colorado. it is one of the leading things that we are seeing as a significant impact on the climate crisis and so it is really important that our utilities be able to make investments really in three different areas. first of all, understanding what is the potential for wildfires and some of the funding will help them do things like advanced so monito management. but also being able to respond more quickly on their system as monitoring the grid and then are they able to actually move the electricity off that area of the grid onto another part so that we do not see outages? then the third piece is actually being able to put the grid back up into place as quickly as possible. colorado is a mountainous, rugged, rural state outside of the foot range. so the federal spore for our utilities has been really key. and i would like to highlight just one piece of that with

holy cross energy who work with some of our rural electric cooperatives. those are often very small electric utilities that serve very small areas. >> thank you so much. chairman. >> we will now go to mr. guthrie. >> thank you, everybody, for being here. you know, the goalof all of this is to make sure that all of our constituents have sustainable, reliable, and importantly affordable access to energy. it completely changes the dynamics of people's lives and we have to make sure that it is there. it cannot just be dismissed w important it is for people to function. so for the epa's clean powerplant 2.0, it doubles down on the biden administration trust by requiring: gas generator to convert to hydrogen, reduce their operations, or even force premature retirement of those assets. it does things like hydrogen coal firing and strategies. these technologies are not civiable. so, could you talk about what measures your state, your

utility operators and power providers would have to do to comply with this rule and are you able to live with the timelineleso what would they have to do within the timeline? and what would this due to the cost of your repairs? >> thank you for the question. utilities in the state of georgia would be put between a rock and a hard place trying to determine whether or not they are going to serve customers at times when they are pinched for power. it is this dispatchable energy that is soceto ensuring we can provide continuous service. there's going to be a cost consideration of course to it, but then there is a long-term consideration to the reliability of the renewable resources. i recognize that hydrogen and baery storage nologies, but they are very young. they are very new. they have not been tested. there has been a great deal of research. at the end of the day the lights are on right now because the lights are on, not because

research. so it is imperative to not just consider the cost implications of these decisions but also the long-term viability of the technologies explored. >> thank you. anchairman houston, you have a mile-wide river between most of us. so we have very much the same needs. and your growing energy needs. and what type of generation do you expect to be building your ate over the next three years and why and can you talk about the risk and trade-off to customers for each type of generation you >> well, sure. the 20 year planning process for integrated resource plans gives us a window into what the utilities are resources. in fact, the general assembly passed a statute to include smrs as a clean energy resource but that is still a very technology and would not cost a very significant level at this point. think about modeling coal energy. they model nuclear. they model everything including variations. refueling of existing power

facilities. and as i stated, what we have done at the commission is try to maximize their look at optionality and flexibility. because the future is not known. we do not want science-fiction- type of aspirations to be part of it. we want facts. we won some technologies that are proven and can sustain, hopefully, a 20 year horizon and not have that depreciation schedules for shorter periods rates. that is a long-winded answer for all of the above is what we try to encourage in ways that provide dispatchable, reliable, resilient, sustainable electricity into the future that meet our power needs and also is affordable. it is a very fficult challenge. >> well, thank you. and you talk about these

aspirational's. but when you put things into rules and so forth that is we just spent billions of dollars in the infrastructure bill or inflation reduction act rs have to be electric -- acutely. two thirds of cars have to be electric by 2032 and that is just not doable. but they took the money so they did not really say that but now we are seeing that the battery about half of what it was supposed to be when they first took the money. and because you were just asking people to do things that were not possible, so commissioner pridemore, in your state, is your state widely affected by the decisions of other states? >> no. >> you are not affected by that at all? so you can do things to make your market structure more re actions of the federal government and the state of georgia. >> so not the actions of other states around you. yield back. >> the chairman yields back. we will now go to ms. fletcher for five minutes.

>> thank you, mr. chairman. r witnesses for being here today. this is a really important hearing. i don't think i have to tell or explain to anyone here that texans know the importance of grid reliability all too well and we have our own set of challenges in texas from the devastating impacts of the winter storm a couple of years ago to d

that helps drive investment in all kinds of energy technologies and i am very much and all of the energy person and i think we need to be doing all of these things in the inflation reduction act and chips and science act. we are investing in things that will lead to the developing of new technon to the energy mix. and we are seeing these developments. and new semiconductor manufacturing. industrial manufacturing. batteries. and battery storage. other energy components. and for the projects that are inntiv these bills to succeed, we have to be able to power them. and i think one thing i would like to focus on with the time is the greatest single impediment to bring a new generation online and that is the permitting process. we have heard a little bit mr. myers, and at least my notes say that the average times that projects spent in the queue is a little less than that but has risen from 2.1 years to 3.7 years is between

2010 and 2021. so just in that decadestimony, you stated that your model shows a need for significant expansion of supply for a anticipated 40% increase in demand by 2040. permitting structure, do you think that you will be able or that we will be able to deploy the needed generation given the permitting situation? >> thank you, representative fletcher. actually, that is one of the things in the colorado general assembly session that we are taking on. reform to state level. we want to make it easier for developers to come forward with good, projects. to actually approve those projects. we think a the federal level would be really important to help make sure the pace and scale of development of wind and solar and other clean energy technologies is where we need it to be if we g to come forward and really do a

deep, deep decarbonization. >> thanks. i think that is an excellent point. i would love to hear from everybody on the panel. that we should be looking at at the federal level permitti reform ideas that congress should be looking at whether modeled on what you're doing in the state or elsewhere but that would be helpful for all of us. ms. pridemore? >> yes, ma'am. i would like to see meaningful pipeline permitting reform. access to natural gas is essential for my state's growth, and for industrial customers, as well as residential customers who choose it for home heating. we continue to use gas as a dispatchable source on the electric side but accessible gas is essential for us and i would love to see more. >> right. mr. houston? and my next question was for you, too. maybe i can put them together. if you can talk about that and also answer this question because i have 54 seconds. you talked about the issues that the regulatory committee

face for a carbon study in your testimony. and the difficulties in deploying new gas generation your transmission lines in your carbon storage generation. apart from granting privacy applications, how can epa approved the process in classic 6 permitting to make it easier for state utility regulatory ojects? so you have got kind of both and one question. >> let me start off the first question. indiana is in the intersection of a whole lot of gas pipelines. we are blessed. we have got gas coming from texas. we have gas coming from louisiana. we have gas coming from you to have the rocky mountain express gas line which now flows in different pipeline so access to as acute a problem for either home use or for electric generation as it is elsewhere in the country. with respect to carbon capture and sequestration, is that what you're asking about -- we have one utility, duke energy,

edwards port, which is the newest coal facility -- one of the newest in the country. it went operators shall in 2013. it actually rescinds death and burney did a study that came up with a prohibitive number. i don't know enough to be able need except for flexible tea. >> okay. i have gone over my time. if you have anything else to say i would love to submit it for the record and i will get this question circulated to you all. thank you so much. >> yielding back. d into law a sweeping climate package for our state really over lighting local control and all other things. and all the business people are extremely frustrated. it will accelerate retirements of baseload generation in favor es with less capacity, seemingly ignoring concerns over reliability. now, the state government

political somehow includes both moving toclean electricity while also adding the demand of millions more ev's on grid. trim in houston, identified myself as one of the few regions at risk for resource shortfalls. demand for power is going up well generation is going doall indicated we need more generation. how should states build in more flexibility for the electricity demand of the future? >> i think working together is one of the biggest ways to do that. there is a reason why we engage with my so directly now to that general administrative order that i mentioned. soliciting input, those guys are in charge of the grid from manitoba to the gulf of mexico. we are included in that and have states with different perspectives and different environmental goals but they need to move electrons around. and we need to understand as state commissioners exactly what is needed from them to do

their job properly as well. we are not as independent as what tricia was talkin in georgia. we are interconnected and do rely on that connectivity. that is why we support dispatchable characteristics being priced in ancillary services. that is why we look at scarcity pricing for delivering electrons when they are absolutely most needed. people talk about gas speaker plants and other kinds of peaking facilities as if they are not used because their utilization may only be 10% of the time but it is precisely at that point in time when you need it the most and you so and all of the above energy plan that includes the resources that has positive characteristics on the fuel side which is where nobles are, but dispatchable and spending on the reliable side is necessary to make sure that the grid does not go down per your observation. we want to make sure that we

are a working partner ana and doing what we need to do, just as georgia is doing, in doing things ourselves and not over relying on the wholesale market, but also where the wholesale market is capturing a pricing mechanism to deliver dispatchable electrons. >> i apth. it is important. we have held hearings on this topic with fork and iso and now the public utility commission. with all these regulators, i think there's a false sense g on someone else. so to the whole panel briefly and succinctly, when the lights go out who really is at fault? my constituents want to know where the buck actually stops. ms. pridemore? >> number one, our utilities have an s have an obligation to serve their customers. and so they are ultimately

responsible but i will say we bring them twice year on winter reliability and summary liability to make sure they have got the the resources needed to deliver peak load plus a reserve margin on a ongoing basis. >> i sure like ms. pridemore's answer. stop? >> mr. representative, as everyone knows, i think people know i am not a regulator in the state of colorado but to our commission, they are ultimately responsible for ensuring that the system is reliable. >> okay. mr. myers? >> i am. >> okay. the book ds. i like that. we are now moving clean into the mix along with affordability and reliability. affordability. that is okay, that is generally environmental so the question i have, mr. houston, how do we, how do we make sure that we incorporate clean without damaging the other two?

serve customers. and the companies have a responsibility to deliver it and we enforce that. we take it very seriously, that is why we do engagement on an ongoing basis and the reason our legislature has been at five pla could be characterized as reliability, stability, resiliency, reliaby, all work together. >> my time has expired, but i certainly appreciate, ms. pridemore, it seems to be working. we are moving in that direction anyway, without the government mandating that. i yield back. >>i want to thank all of the witnesses for being here today. i think that we all agree that the lights on is a huge priority. climate change is making that harder, with more intensand more extreme weather. sacramento was battered by another atmospheric river that

brought heavy rain and wind of over 65 miles per hour and the storm knocked out power for thousands y constituents. i really want to thank the local utilities companies who really worked quickly to restore por across the region, but moving forward climate change will increase the likelihood of severe weather. more severe weather. mr. hey how important is it for utilitie to consider the impact of climate change when planning for the future? >> i would say it is absolutely essential, in two ways. in colorado we are already seeing changing weather as result of climate, and our winters are no longer as cold as the used to be.

our summer evenings are no er as cool as they used to be and that is driving changes in the utility load. the second are the extreme weather events, whether it was the super storm a couple of years ago, our public utilities commission is requiring our utilities, as part of the process, to of the different models they are running to reliable, even under extreme situations. >> if the state utility ignores the impacts, and continues to operate as they have in the past, will that make the grid more reliable or less reliable? >> representative, i would say less reliable come the future is not going to e past. our utilities need to be planning differently. >> climate change is an emergency and we have to act like it is, that is why i am calling on the epa to limit climate pollution. a strong national carbon

pollution role is necessary for the transition to a clean energy economy. mr. hay, is that role feasible and can you explain how you expect utilities in the west to meet the proposed rule? >> we do not think that rule will have an impact in our state because we are already ahead. i think that colorado can provide a roadmap for a lot of western states and how they can actually achieve decarbonizing . i would point to the model in colorado, where we set an emissions reduction target and we left ittarget neutral for trying to get there. i think that is largely what the epa rule does, if they want to look at the state level -- >> well, i am looking at my utility, too we have set the ambitious goal of being carbon achieve that. innovation sometimes requires that we rethink how we have

been approaching problems in the past. one response is using smart thermostats or managed charging electric vehicles. mr. hay, can you explain how demand response can make the grid reliable while also saving the pairs more money we >> there is a moment in time where utilities need a resource. in some states, that is going to be a gas peak plant. to earlier comments, that unit do not need to create is going to be your lowest unit available, that is what demand response provides he customers, to reduce energy consumption and be compensated for that. >> there are virtual technologies, with electric vehicles particularly being important, because they both use and store significant amounts of energy at different times.

mr. hay, can you explain how th can provide energy to the grid without inconveniencing rate pairs? >> that is something that we are working on coming down to the managed charging progress. you ensure that customers have the opportunity to basically tell the utilities how much of that battery needs to be there. the customer is then compensated for it. making sure that there is flexibility for the utility, but the decision-making needs to rest with the ll go to mr. palmer. >> thank you, mr. chairman. one of my main concerns is about , obviously, the grid, the liabilz i was looking at a report from the midcontinent independent service operator and their , i

want to say 3000 megawatts, still concerns about being able to adequately meet demand. mr. houston, do you have those concerns? >> as a matter of practice they exchange electrons every day. sometimes in more acute situations than others. 6000, 6000 gigawatts being exchanged to support the needs of overall, as consumption and load grows, we need to make sure that we have the proper resources in place and fulfill responsibility that the grid itself is reliable. i do have concerns and that is the reason why we are soliciting direct input from the rto's on how they manage that and move those throughout the input. >> we have shut down so much of

the hydrocarbon-based we are not replacing it at a fast enough rate. it reminds me of some of what might colleagues are advocating for, andtaking down the power, in the state of washington, it comes from hydro. but when i ask them what they were going to replace it with, they could not give me an answer. it is like they think cannot build anything in this country. >> three years at the bare minimum to get something in the ground, you are right. >> permitting, lawsuits, and everything else, it sounds like they will be cooking over wood if they get rid of their dams. and the other issue, chairman brought it up, ucand i know that georgia power, they have been building the vogel facility. i am aea major proponent of small

modular reactors i think that is the future of clean power. and it is also, one of the huge advantages is that you can recycle spent fuel. the director of our national nuclear laboratory was asked 2f how long we could recycle spent fuel, he said over 100 years. i would like your response. because you have gone through what you have gone through, but i really think the small modular units are really the future. >> thank you, for the question, sir. but it is getting the first five to 10 bill. that is an area, as state regulators, we have looked at ways that the federal government could assist. >> on the permitting? >> just building the first five to 10 smrs, you will have the

learning of the knowledge that comes from that construction. plant mobile, unit three, to get it to functional testing, we were able to take nine months out of the schedule, just tounderstand we were doing it the first time. that is an area where we could assist. >> one of my major concerns is how grid liability is a national security issue. we talk about renewables, and with evs, and a reliance on batteries, mr. chairman,i did not, i did not bring this to the attention of the committee earlier, but if you look at battery manufacturing, china controls 69%i tell people we do not make batteries, we assemble batteries so is, as we continue

to shut down the power production and we try to move more to renewables we are creating a national security t only on our grid reliability. the single biggest threat is changing the resource mix. how would you respond to th as i tried to mention, having all of the above, which would include gas, which includes nuclear, which includes renewables, gives it diversification of the portfolio ana strength and a resiliency. the commodities, along with gas and coal, they fluctuate sometimes they trace each other, but if there is a problem with one it would not necessarily be with another and thatis where dive comes in. the thought of having more

nuclear, small module, coal solar, gas, wind, all working together, probably strengthens us as a country. >> that figure about capacity, mr. chairman, that is for 2027. >> i will now go here for five minutes. >> we need to utilize every tool possible to ensure ou is reliable and can be clean, which i believe is both possible and necessary. it sounds like colorado is a great model for this, proving that states can make tremendous progress, proving that states need robust, long-term plans. success will include permitting and siting of new renewables, building energy storage, and expanding into regional structures, and once you have a

strategy often overlooked in these discussions, it is energy efficiency. according to the agency, efficiency could be responsible for 40% of the greenhouse gas reductions needed by 2040. mr. hay, is energy efficiency an important strategy for the achievement of colorado's clean energy goals? >> it is absolutely essential. going forward, as our studies suggest, it can meet anywhere up to 9% of our energy needs. as we see energy usage increasing, we can bend the curve a little bit with efficiency. a really important component that does not get talked about sometimes is what it can an reduce the energy bills, it really is an affordability component as well. >> can you say a little bit more about how reducing energy demand will improve overall system reliability? >> we are seeing more cars

coming onto our electrical grid. we see more hoonto our electrical grid. we need to really make sure that the utilities are able to balance and manage that system. we are seeing more consistent use over the hours the day and days of the year, that growth, that flattening out, results in a downward trenr rates. we have seen that from one of our electric planning facilities. >> we have heard many states are projecting a al demands, in large part due to manufacturing incentives enacted during the mr. hay, how can demand response programs integrate these energy users without compromising reliability >> if i may, i would highlight a slightly different story. we have a steel mill powered by one of the largest solar facilities in the united

states, helping to produce green steel. demand response is anessential component, especially for large , industrial customers. in colorado, we do it in a way that gives flexibility to the customer and utility to work together to help manage that load and i think that is an important part of that. we are not telling producers and manufacturers that you cannot have power when you need it. it is about having a that works for both. >> mr. hay, your testimony mentioned building energy codes. what are the benefits of these latest codes? >> this is something we have done a lot of work on in the colorado energy office and it has multiple layers of benefits, from a climate and energy perspective, we are avoiding having to build new power plants and customers are to pay for those power plants. for customers, it means they have lower energy costs overall and frequently more comfortable homes. again, there is a benefit to

all of the other customers. advanced energy codes are very important, one of the big pieces is, you start with a building that needs less energy annn going forward, you are really avoiding carbon emissions over the long term of the building. >> the inflation reduction act included significant tax credits and rebates. some of those will be administered by state energy resource offices. how is the colorado informing residents about these new opportunities? >> thank you, representative. we have a team in our office working with local jurisdictions to help get the word out through local building of through our network of contractors, we are producing a website to help customers rebates and incentives they are eligible for. they are using multiple channels to get the word out that there really are opportunities. >> a lot of

things have been said. downward states like new york unregulated pollution. i yield back. >> i will now go to mr. bush on for five minutes. >>i apologize, i have another hearing upstairs. we are upstairs, are we upstairs? downstairs. mr. houston, your testimony illustrates the effectiveness of the strategies. i firmly believe we should be these things. energy policies do not need to be a zero sum game. solar, wind, coal, natu are traditional sources. we need a mix for the foreseeable future to balance out each other. the wind does not always blow. the sun does not always shine. coal and nuclear power nearly doubled on the national grid when needed source the weather -dependent sources like wind and solar were unavaiwere challenges from poorly

winterized national -- natural gas sources that need to be corrected. in a hearing last year, the senior vp of market services, identified the retirement of fossil fuel resources due to resources, outpacing construction of renewable sours. w, and we know that it provided the grid with stability for maintaining capacity during frequency regulations, voltage control, and buffering against your testimony echoed this concern, highlighting what was being passed on to the rate payers, given the rapid g with the retirement of these resources such as coal and gas, exacerbated by policies reiterated in this room, do you believe these transformations are enhancing the grid's

resilience? are we getting ahead of ourselves, making the grid more vulnerable? >> as e on of renewables increases, it increases the need for us to have the resources available to make up for when they are not that is the reason our energy, our utilities, are resource planning that anticipates in a probable way, how the future may unfold. with additional renewables, whether wind, solarand fulfilling their obligation to serve customers simultaneously, one of the messages we had loud and clear, do not compromise on service liability. that is the reason why they passed five pillars, reliability, resiliency, stability, and all under the same umbrella to make sure

that, as we approach the future, as hoosiers, we are doing it in a way thats of the future for a reliable system. >> i would agree with that. does the vulnerability, caused by generational uncertainty, lead to any cyber security concerns? >> there has been discussion about demand response and aggregation, in some ways. and we have invited the fbi, homeland security, both at the state and national levels to brief us on multiple occasions, including having our investor of utilities appear up here, before us. one of the concerns expressed is not only the criminal conduct through ransomware and all of those kind of things, but state actors who may be involved. and how down chain manufacturers , are protected. cybersecurity is incredibly

important to grid reliability. and that is the reason why we pursue that modality in our commission. >> it is definitely on the radar in washington. vertical infrastructure, for example, which includes the energy sector, needs to be protected from cyber security threats. i have a few seconds left, so, how do state commissions manage divergent conditional maybe we will see what mr. myers has to say are different. >> states are different. we had a lot of transmission interconnects and that is part of our integrated resource planning. that is pretty much how we managed it. >> fair enough. mr. hay? quickly. >> we partner, you know, with

some of our states but we maintain a regulaogue across the western states. >> fair enough. i am out of time, unfortunately. >> the gentleman's time has expired and i will now go to ms. castro for five minutes. >> my colleagues would have us believe that th reliability is with dirty fossil fuels. i think that is dangerous and it is costly. the new scientific analysis finds that gas plants are particularly vulnerable to extreme weather events like heat waves and which are growing in severity, and frequency, cold articular challenges. we saw the harsh conditions from the winter storm in 2021, and again in 2022, where gas plant failures occurred at disproportionate rates, relative to cleaner energy sources. in one case, over 240 people in texas perished.

and it left families without power in freezing temperatures and bills skyrocketed. what are the grid vulnerabilities associated with gas plants. high wind solar, and batteries help resiliency? >> in colorado, duwinter storm yuri, our system was operational when the wind was blowing because we had appropriately winterized the plant and the same was true for gas infrastructure in colorado. we did not experience the problems that other states did. the first part of that is important and accurate planning. to the earlier and changing climate, i think utilities and utility regulators need to be looking forward at the impacts of what future weather may be, backwards,

expe what the weather will look like. those are certainly two big components of that. with respect to the role of renewables, in colorado, you know, they performed when they were needed and they provided a reliable asset to our utilities. it has really been about the integration and the planning, excel energy has invested in s. and it allows them to project and forecast, veen those resources will be available. >> commissioner pridemore, your testimony caught my eye. and it, you claim,gta utility, say in this case, georgia power, if they violate the law or an epa rule, quote, customers are left to pay for the fines and any resulting costs from legal actionw, that strikes me as a strange statement coming from a public utility commissioner. because the commission besides whether or not it is

appropriate for georgians to pay those costs on their power bill. it is not something that is guaranteed. it is a choice that you and the to decide. why do you think it is appropriate for georgians to pay the cost of georgia power's lawsuitswhy should the utility be able to challenge the law of using rate payer dollars and fund the and medical expenses? >> in the state of georgia, georgia power has the legal right to seek recovery of the cost of operating their business, including lawsuits and the related costs for lawsuits, especially unnecessary government actions. >> there have been a rash of scandals all across the country everyone in the utility business understand what has happened in ohio, with first energy, florida power & light,

in my home state, they were funding political ghost candidates to challenge legislative critics. national fuel, michigan. and now, in georgia, the parent company of has been actively engaged in lobbying against new tran cleaner, cheaper energy sources. southern energy spent 101 $91 million from 2015 to 2020 alone far more than other utilities. ce commission approved that for other political activities? >> as much as i can see, from ppened that is not the reality that i have found in georgia. >> did youapprove those? answer for the record

because i am running out of time. many people do not think that is fair. and it is costing -- causing electric bills to go sky high. >> your time has expired. >> i filed the ethics in energy act and i would like you to comment on the record with the follow-up cost. >> your time has expired. i will go to ms. blasko for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. thank commissioner myers, from arizona, for coming here and representing our great arizona and for all of your great work. i think it is very common sense work that you do, to benefit the arizona rate payers. i also want to recognize your daughter, zoe, sitting behind you. yay, zoe! it is great that you get to visit with your dad and learn

about all of these great things and hopefully will see some sites in washington, d.c. and have a little bit of fun. mr. myers, in your written testimony, you said are grid reliability, rate payer affordability, and cleaner technologies. that i totally agree with your priorities. the arizona corporation took steps to dialback costly renewable energy standards and tariff roles that were going on since 2006, i think. hopefully this will be a model for other states to follow because of our reasonable approaches in arizona, we have been a coming to our state. many of these businesses are fleeing california due to their single priority which is 100% renewable energy. california is actively against policies that are affordable and reliable. the bill in arizona is $138 per

month. summers so our usage is much higher to keep people cool, however if we had the same rates as california, the average bill would increase to $274 per month, doubling the cost. i am wog on draft residence relations -- in your views. my first question for mr. myers is, the epa's powerplant proposal effectively requires carbon capture and storage for clean hydrogen, to commercially unproven technologies, to reduce carbon emissions by 90%. since these technologies are unprovenyou discuss the potential reliability problems the epa's proposal would create for arizona? >> absolutely.

thank you for the question. one of our utilities used the words aspirational and unproven. that is exactly what it is. those technologies are so much in their infancy, they are extremely expensive. the timeline is extremely rushed . and there is no infrastructure technologies. we have power plants outside, they are kind of out in the rural areas. you cannot pipe hydrogen long distances. you have to convert it to ammonia and then by the back. there is no infrastructure in place to handle any it would absolutely increase costs, dramatically, to arizona utilities, if we had to do that. might accelerate the closure of certain ants because of these requirements. the dates on them, i believe, are carbon capture, it would have to be installed by 2030. and hydrogen blending would have to be 2032.

those are extremely accelerated dates and it might end up changing the timeline of our reliable energy shutdown, so that ends up being a reliability problem for us. >> thank you very much for the answer. ms. pridemore, i believe that you wanted to talk about the last statement from my democratic colleague so i will give you the chance to do that. congresswoman lesko. i do not want to correct any member of the committee. buestion was relative to the holding company. i regulate one of the operating companies. the activities are not regulated and certainly not beingundermined, they are not under my authority. >> in the few seconds i have left, commissioner myers, can you dis how the natural gas system contributes to the reliability over all of the energy s natural gas is our dispatch

able, reliable energy. without that, we ve up and the sun does not shine. the batteries are simply not there. for as much battery storage as we have, it is only two to four hours, tops, we have one utility waiting. supply chain issue is a big deal. the only option that we have right now is natural gas to our reliable backup. >> thank you very much. i yield back. >> i representative tardiness. >> i appreciate these witnesses expertise and opinions on this matter, the importance and value of a reliable power grid is undeniable. ne every day, 340 million americans rely on you to keep the power on. and energy remains vertical. unfortunately, it is also undeniable that the energy system is facing complex, evolving challengesreliability at

risk. preserving access to reliable electricity should be a top priority for all of us. since we are seeing crisis -level heat waves reliable air conditioning can quickly become a matter of life and death. multiple studies, including the national transmission needs study ha within regions and interregional transmission capacity, there will be the largest benefit for reliability. mr. hay, you stated in your testimony that accelerating the buildout of interregional transmissions is to minimizing costs and increasing the reliability and resiliency of the grid. can you expand my interregional transmission is necessary to ensure grid reliability, particularly throughout extreme weather events? >> one way to think about that,

if you have a grid that is bigger than the weather system, sources outside of that impacted area that are then able to supply those ck into the community. building up that interregional transmission, we can get to a grid, hopefully, that is better and bigger than the weather >> in my district, reliability is not the only priority. for environmental justice communities, it is also a public health imperative to reduce emissions that pollute our communities. ready have the tools to both cut carbon pollution and maintain reliability. there is also evidence that transmission can help move fossil fuel plants out of environmental justice communities that are already overburdened by pollution. given that many agingplants are going off-line can you explain the role

modernization will play in making it accessible to such communities? >> thank you, representative. that is important to the state of colorado and partially why, in this legislation, we are working on both the di as we think about grid modernization, by getting a 21st century grid, we make it possible to build more renewable energy giving communities rooftop solar to what we call disproportionately impacted communities is something we are looking at. that is a statutory term in colorado and making sure that we have a robust distribution grid so that out to where those renewable resources are. one of the things we colorado that could be a model, we have enabled one of our utilities to build a system, in advance of actually having a generator. we can hook up those renewables to match up with the timing we have for need looking at both

the distribution and transmission system will be key . >> thank you. interregional transmission is an important opportunity to better support our communities, so is supporting local clean energy products and micro grids. jan historic $10.5 billion for resiliency, reliability, and flyou discuss how this funding will empower communities to develop micro grids and how it will promote reliability and resiliency? >> we are working to actually stand up a grant program r some of our cooperatives. it is helping them to actually develop an understanding of what micro grids are with effectively stealing the ground to build those micro grids. it allows the communities to have power with the larger grid is otherwise unavailable perhaps due an extreme weather event. it allows us to continue to provide power within that community. >> our world dependent on

fossil fuels far too much when it comes to power and power generation. luckily, today, we have technology, as long as we have the will to integrate a better system that is more integrated with better sources of power. i think we could have a better world. with my time expired, i yield back. >> i now go to mr. pence for five minutes. >> thank you, witnesses, for being here today. i would like to welcome chairman houston of indiana's utility regulatory commission, who is actually the 6th district director in his life. he knows even more about my district than i do. chairman houston has served since being appointed by my brother, governor mike pence, andsolving these reliable -- reliability issues. as chairman houston well knows, is a state that works, we have a business-friendly state government and state

agencies who tly with industry to meet common goals of affordable, reliable, and safe energy for all uss.we have implemented framework for our energy policies that the chairman mentioned. "w protect reliability stability, and environmental sustainability. i have heard from my peers on the other side that the technology exists to do all of those things. i disagreethe many hearings have shown that the technology does not exist. it is melcal. our approach has been inhibited by the onslaught of regulatory actions by the biden administration. at every turn, this administration makes it harder to produce, distribute, and use our nation's energy resources.

as i have stated in this committee many times before, our nation is on a path toward catastrophic failures in the energy industry. fortunately, the results of this misguided approach to the administration will be born onto co prices and fewer economic opportunities for business, as the chairman stated in his decisions and their impact on our grid are not overnight decisions. these affect long-term investments and could ta to fully realize. in richmond, indiana our operation operates whitewater valley station, that you and i talked about a little early. it is in the pgmfootprint, coming over to richmond, as well. it only operates 10% of the year, they have previously receivedexemptions from guideline requirements. during the two-degree and 1

degree above zero, for about two weeks, it was fired up providing heat and electricity to the uses in my district. for whitewater valley station, running on slim margins, these exemptions are critically important┐ re-imposing these regulations. whitewater station's retirement timeline is ing accelerated by a number of years. mr. houston, can you speak to the role of dispatcher will peak are plants, for reliability in our home state of indiana? >> thank you congressman they have a reliable, substantl role in the delivery of electricity. as you stated, in this might only be used 10% of the time. but it is the 10% of the time what it is most necessary. i think one of the other members talked about vulnerable

population. weather in the winter or summer months, typically peaker plants operate more in the summer months, you want those vulnerable populations to have the air conditioning that they need when power is at its scarcest. the systems that are built in our state and elsewhere, are billed to me peak load and have reserve margins, those facilities are part of that matrix. it is important to have peaking facilities available, to meet those circumstances, whether it is in the winter or the summer, wh >> thank you for that and i appreciate you pointing that out. we have lots of windmills and solar panels in the district. >> close to richmond, indiana, there are abundantly rich windmills in randolph county and north in jade county as well and they interconnect.

they are all in that th wind at 50' above grant is optimal. >> it would have been a catastrophe. >> that is exactly right, that is the role that peaking plants often play. as the grid changes, those peaking plants may be called upon more frequently than what they have been in the past. >> thank you, sir. i yield back in >> the me has expired. i will go to ms. custer for five minutes. >> thank you for hosting , 45 major companies, lmart wrote to the federal regulatory commission, urging the commission to finalize the pending regional transmission planning rulemaking to, quote, lower customer costs, modernize our grid to meet growing demand across the country, so that the united states is in a position

to capture innovation, growth, and jobs. these electricity buyers know that our electricity system is literally thbackbone of the economy in this nation. mr. hay, my first question is to you. do you believe that our electric transmissions system is keeping pace with the significant demand growth that manufacturing in the united states, and the electrification of the trepation >> looking up from 2030 to 2040, thinking about the fact that that will lead, in colorado , to something close to a 40% electricity need one of the things that we did, this year slatively, we are looking at building out the 21st re. and to accelerated permitting and do permitting reform on the transmission grid.

those are both places where the federal government can and should step in to support the states looking to do that. because we are all going need to invest in our transmission architecture to keep pacewith manufacturing and the levels of electrification that are coming. >> i agree. turning now to energy markets, i am a proud capitalist. i believe competition improves quality and lowers prices. and that is why i was so surprised throughout the hearing beer some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle bemoan competition in electricit before we introduce competition into the electricity markets in the '90s and the 2000s, the electricity systems of this meant that consumers were forced to pay whatever the price was oved by the state regulators and we have been through this, in new hampshire, with very high costs. competitive markets, by the way were a bipartisan idea, have

broken up these monopolies in many parts of the consumers to enjoy the benefits of competition, lower prices, more reliability and efficient investment. in monopoly markets, and i look to the state of georgia, consumers end up on the hook for supposedly prudent investments, even when there are significant cost overruns. the nuclear reactors three and four offer good examples. after unprecedented delays, this year, the georgia public utility commission has approved nearly $10 million , in costs associated with the costgoing into the georgia and electricity bills. electricity bills are going to be increasing $168 per year to pay for this construct ms. pridemore, it is puzzling that your testimony complains about epa regulations but makes no mention of the price tag of plant vogtle, what price tag

can you offer to other regulators, to learn from the vogtle experience and avoid similarly costly mistakes that will be taken on by consumers? i want to clarify the cost considerations for vogtle. december, the commission approved a $7.7 billion final price of the project, and that was stcustomer rates in the january bill and we are very proud of the 60-80-your asset that vogtle will be. >> what impact on consumers? >> we had a $3.17 per month y3l9 impact from unit three and a total bill impact of just over $12. that include -- >> what happened with the cost overruns? >> we reached a stipulated

agreement over exactly what the customer would pay and exactly what georgia power would cover e shareholders of georgia power, they absorbed some of the costs as well. >> you know what the total cost overruns work? >> i don't have it in front id vogtle construction monitoring in cases where we pr public format and everything happening on site with the project. earlier when i was asked about smrs, that is one of the pieces of advice i have two other states looking at nuclear. the importance of having a transparent, long scale process, monitoring the construction, not only from the time in scheduling standpoint, but also from cost considerations. >> from a state that had a nuclear project going on at the vogtle, rate payers are still footing the bill for the cost overruns of that project without generating one single

electron of power. the georgia folks are happy that plant vogtle is onl generating power and will be for 60-80 years. in south carolina, we lost megawatts of power future. so, i will now go here. >> i feel like i start out every on a caveat. everything is cheaper if you give it a tax break or subsidy, not just renewable energy, everything is cheaper if you given a tax break or subsidy. i california and florida were here to talk about cold weather energy production. it is something we know about in north dakota. we need to make sure that the heat comes on when degrees below, windchill. we do not make wind turbines, because it is incredibly expensive to heat them. and why would they? the average lifespan of a wind turbine is 20 years. anybody have any idea what the

average repower of a wind farm is? 10 years. anyone know why? that is when the repower tax credit kicks in. we create these policies. ms. pridemore, you said the responsibility ends with you. i just wish we didn't have to tie one hand behind your back all the time. 37.6% natural gas, nuclear, 8.3% wind, 5% solar, that is today. when it is 70 below zero, there is none. no wind. coal and natural gas. mr. houston, when you talk about quality this so often and i will be the first one to admit republicans were late to the game. we were late on carbon, climate change, we were late on all of those things. now we take on the buzzwords and the catchwords. the problem with all of the the pie chart stays within equilibrium, weather -dependent energy, when

it is too big on the what happens? they go out of business, they have to make money every day. so, you were just talking about the peaker plants. they need to make money every day, otherwise they are noailable when we need it. when it is 70 degrees below zero. i want to talk to you about testing, that should be riveting. however, it becomes very important. we are the greatest country in the history of the world. and let's just assume through all the renewable utopia that existsis entire country for 360 out of 365 days of the year on wind and solar, what do we do for does the state government subsidize coal plants, does the government subsidize those things? or does the greatest country in the history of the world go dark for those days. i hope it is not januaryin north dakota, one of the goals

for the office of electric reliability is to coordinate facilitate electric reliability and security. mr. houston, i talk to you, because it is my zone appeared you are aware of the forecasting. can you explain, briefly, how this forecast has an impact on generating unitsall concerned about load forecasting. because the future may be somewhat uncertain in what electric load looks like on the horizon. if there is a certain amount of adoption and transportation, in electrification, it could have a significant impact onload forecasting. that is not our experience in indiana. >> in my state, there have been concerns that they have been under forecasting load, at the expense of respectable regeneration. load forecast based on preferred political outcomes, rather than reliability, jeardize the overall reliability of the good. the sierra club and the national resource defense council, because these

organizations claim that pgm is reducing the right kind of resources, also known as weather-dependent power supply. meanwhile, the north american electric reliability corporation has noted that rtos can face challenges in meeting the above-normalpeak demand, if wind generation is lower than expected in the sierra club and the dclower load forecast to support the deployment of wind at the same time, the chief reliability valuator said it can make the grid more unreliable. in its after action report on the 2021 winter storm, stb explicitly mention the importance of fuel resource adequacy as essential parts of responding to future reliability events. we had brownouts in north dakota during that storm. that storm went from the canadian border to the gulf of mexico. shouldn't resource adequacy the foundational and the single

most important decision in this conversation? >> it is to us. >> i yield back to >> i will go with dr. scheier for five minutes. >> inc. you, chairman duncan, and to all of our witnesses. i want tosay a special thank you to the committee chairwoman, she has announced her retirement and it has been a pleasure to work with lly glad that the majority called a hearing on grid reliability. in the northwest, we enjoyed anabower. in addition to extreme weather and catastrophic wildfire that we associate with climate change, there will also be impacts to hydropower in washington state. the hydropower systthe water cycle, rain, flowing rivers in the winter and spring, it is the melting snow from the s that gives us the consistent flows during the dry, hot summer months when the demand for energy spikes. climate change brings more rain

and less snowpack. over the last 70 years, we have seen that snowpack shrink by a third and this will likely affect reliability, particularly in the erduring these next decades. this committee has been sharing a lot of concerns about introducing new considerations and a presumed need fo baseload energy resources, specifically nuclear energy, so, mr. hay, i was intrigued to see as colorado plants had increased reliability demands, your research has determined that along with clean energy and geothermalsolar wind and battery storage will be the best, most reliable, most economical solution. that will comprise the majority of your portfolio so i had two questions, one, it is a so state there is resistance to installing solar and wind farms in rural areas

to meet the rest of the state's needs, much of which is in large cities. how are you managing what i presume are similar social struggles in colorado and how can agricultural rural interests work together to get a favorable outcome for everybody ? >> thank you, representative. like washington, colorado has a large rural population and a large rural land area. that is where many and solar resources are. our load centers arth springs, fort collins. you know? one of the things we have done in our energy office is partnered with the department of agriculture to look at a program to really work with farmers to help them understand that it is not renewables or farming. g both on your land. there is a long-term benefit. the same is true of wind. really making sure the land owners understand the benefits and being able to work

and partner with them. that is the biggest /grt >> thank you, i appreciate that answer. i was also intrigued by your discussion of the 100-hour ave shared, traditional lithium batteries, we rely materials. and that is a precarious state to be in. this emerging technology sounds very made in america. i was wondering if you could comment a little bit about that, if you know the technology and what else is required. i do not mean to put you on the spot at that is not your expertise. >> thank you, representative. i would have to back to you. i am not a battery chemist. it is important that our largest utility is coming forward 100 hour iron air batteries, the chemistry of that, i could not explain today. >> thank you. i did a quick google search, it

sounds like the require commentary thing just wait five or x yere.á