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>> all right. hello, everyone settle in. welcome back to the afternoon session on saturday everyone, hopefully you had time to --■s■o get enough lunch. i know it's a quick turnaround but we appreciate everybody bearing with us and getting back here for the rest of the discussions and it is such an honor and a privilege to introduce this next panel. i think it's -- it's really critical this discussion that they will have, it's a really testament to the leadership that -- that these women have exhibited the title of the panels "leading with principal" i will welcome them to the stage. speaking up for the truth.

i think that is easier said than done a lot of times particularly when you are in the middle of a battle and you are serving in positions of government. you want to serve. and all three of these women have done this. alyssa farah griffin now of the view is your will be here -- now is here moderating the discussion joined by cassidy hutchinson the former white house aide to mark meadows. [applause] and sarah matthews the former white house deputy press secretary. please give all these women around of applause for their courage.

>> think you guys so much. i honestly get cheered up when i see these two because i have so much respect, love, and admiration for their bravery and courage. when the two of th s most powern the planet they were in their 20's. they were younger staffers with big jobs, big titles they earned. they came forward to do the right thing when so many people three times their age saw the same thing and did not say a thing about it. these are two incredibly brave woman that i am honored toi wouo not think kassidy and i would have■ the courage to speak out if it was not for this woman here. i know kassidy agrees with me.

thank you for being an iniration to us. let's get right into it. i want to focus a little bit on what brought them to where they ocess of speaking out. i want to reserve time to talk about what a second donald trump term, godfrey bed, would look like -- god forbid, would look like. all of us have unique insight and i think at the moment it is not getting enough attention. if both of you could just share what ultimately made you want to speak out and what that process looks like for you and the days, the weeks, months that followed after you do something like that. >> go for it. >> bypass was not exact -- my path was not exactly linear. i work in the white house for the chief of staff until january 20i did plan to move to mar-a-lo with mr. trump after the

administration even after january 6. i look back on that now and i have a very different perspective. at time when i was -- at the time i was still entrenched in that world iund him. i had been blinded to the fact he was surrounded by enablers, but he is also the perpetrator. i think that speaks to a lot of what we have seen as a continuing problem with donald trump. how he has been able to artificially seduce people into believing his lies. that said, i spent about 1.5 years trying to tow both worlds. i did not really want to be involved in donald trump's world at all anymore. i was very outspoken after january 6 that we were at fault for what happened. i also had financial constraints. i had an attorneypi that was helping me through the first year depositions.

it was not until a few pages of my published that for lack of a better term i had a mental breakdown. i was reading these pages. wanted to become when i entered public service. and i saw how far i had strayed from that person. i saw how i was avoiding telling the truth. i had not been as forthcoming as i had wanted to be. so, i called a member of congress. i refer to him as sam he he -- sam. he is a current sitting member of congress, a republican that did not serve on the january 6 committee and that night he asked me to go look in the mirror and i was kind of annoyed at him that night. i was crying like i don't want to look at myself right now. he said don't look at your appearance, go look at yourself. that was a really profound impactful moment for me. next he asked me, could you look at yourself or the rest of your life knowing that you are not

honoring the person you want to be? can you look at that person for the rest of your life? i knew that i could not. a few other people including alyssa helped usher me back to the right side of history. but i was really scared. it was until i discovered the book called "the last president's men by bob woodward featured aaron alex butterfield you worked for richard nixon's chief of staff. anended up for healing information to the watergate committee. but he did not want to come forward. he still felt loyal to richard nixon. the difference between myself and alex butterfield was the moment he was asked to come forward, he did. he honored his oce and his owes at the public servant as a former member of the military and an american. i saw who i wanted to be in

alex. that gave me the drive and push to move forward in this so-called journey. alongside a lot of other incredible, primarily women, my team of attorneys that came in early june. >> i have been asked was it on january 6 you decided to resign? i think that was the tipping pot for me, but it was kind of a slow burn that started after the election because on election night i remember sitting in the west wing and it seemed the result cominin and knowing that georgia was not trending in the way it should be for a republican candidate and i remember telling this roomful of people we lost. there's no coming back from this. people were saying we might wake up tomorrow and things will be different. obviously that evening i think it was like 3:00 a.m. donald

trump went out to declare victory■@ and i felt really uncomfortable from that. it was from that day moving forward as he started to cling to conspiracy theories to try to explain away how he could lose to someone he perceived as weak as joe biden i became increasingly comfortable with staying at the white house but i felt a duty to finish the term and a see-through peaceful transition. i promised my boss at the time, the white house press secretary kayleigh mcenany, that i would stay on until the end. then january 6 came and we all know what happened that day. donald trump sat back and watched and enjoyed it. i was working as a spokesperson for him. i think that made my decision to than other people that were also working at the white house. because, my job would have been defending that.

walkinggates the next day and ag like everything i saw was fine trying to tell reporters that and it defend his lack of action , i just could not do that. so i ended up resigning that night. after that i actually went back to republican politics. i went back to work on capitol hill where i got my start. that felt like a safe landing zone for me. , a couple months went by. eventually, i got connected to liz cheney through alyssa. liz asked if she thought i might be willing to cooperate with the january 6 committee. obviously, i wasn't sympathetic to the cause and believed there needed to be an investigation. then, when they asked me to publicly testify, i was more than happy tand shed some lighti saw in the lead up after the

election and on january itself, that donald trump did not care what was happening at the capital -- the capitol and sat back and did nothing. i think■n something we all spena lot of time thinking about and none of us have here answer to, but some perspective on, isfelod republicans and we all probably agreed with about 7% of donald trump's policies. i think we were open eyed tois e decision that he is commander of you need people there of good condors that take the oath they swear to the consecration -- constitution seriously. what we wonder is why other people have not come forward that saw what we saw and heard what we heard and why that was not enough of a motivating factor? my working theory looking back at my time in the white house is part of it is you are going one million miles per minute and another part is you start to exist in an echo chamber of people telling you this is all

right. we will get through this. you are watching a media environment. it's right wing it's fox news. it is validating what you are doing, and you almost are to lose yourself in it. i think that speaks a lot to what we are seeing from a lot of elected republicans in congress. all of us know we know -- no they know better. tim scott knows better. it is hard to wrap your head around the mental joe knapp sticks -- mental gymnastics takes to get where he has or somebody like elise stefanik. want to ask you guys is, what is your perspective on why liz cheney came forward and thought more people would follow and it was like the three of us and no one else? why haven't more people came forward? >> i think sadly people are more concerned with their own positions of power than was doing -- with doing what is right for the country.

[applause] it is so sad. because, these people were elected to not serve donald trump. they are there to conserve -- preserve their constituents and they seem to have that confused. so they are doing his bidding. they are so concerned with painting a target on their own back. donald trump, when people speak against him, what does he do? he tries to fi aopponent for thn their race so he gets them out and gets someone he approves of in. i thing a lotg that as a calculus to not speak out and that is really disappointing because i think a lot of people think, i cannot imagine donald trump is that bad if there are not a lot of other republican speaking out. well they aren't saying anything. there are only a couple people the same disgruntled or what have you want the limelight

or something. they come up with some excuse to explain away people like us coming forward. but, i think that people would believe the threat of donald trump if there were more willing people, elected officials that come out and say what i know they say privately publicly. [applause] >> brilliant. you took the words out of my mouth. i want to touch on one thing alyssa said earlier about the singularwhen we existed in that environment, at least in my experience, it can be an extremely isolating place. on one side, you do have fox news telling you what they believe is true, and they have received lawsuits so that's not necessarily the case that it is truth.

but aside from that, the isolation is such a powerful tool that donald trump has done anything successfully in his life he has successfully weaponized isolation and joined that with his message to make it the only message that matters. if you disagree with him, we are beyond the tribal politics at this point. if you disagree with anything he says, it does not matter if you are a democrat or republican, you are automatically the enemy to him and he will go after you and go after you fiercely. sometimes, i do struggle with people that don't come forward even though it is the right thing to do. in our situation we have all been subjected to horrible attacks and threats on our life. it is not easy to be in this position. but just because it is not easy does not mean it is not worth coming forward. [applause]

in the next election, we won't solve this problem in this election cycle in totality. there is a lot of work that needs bring people back to reality, to bring people back to not believing these in spirit as he theories and of the propagation of lies donald trump has done. what we need to do is practice compassion for people that did fall into that seduction and were artificially duped. we need to help educate those people. we don't shame people out of their belief system. we have to welcome them back. that is something that in my journey i have been extremely fortunate with. i was very warmly welcomed into ro full of wonderful people like you. that's not the case for everyone. i think of ruby freeman and shaye mosson

workers in georgia. i think about rusty bowers trapped in his home as donald trump supporters and rudy giuliani sent to his home while his daughter is passing away inside. this is a problem that has persisted. a level of political violence we have not seen in modern time. we need to retract from that. we need to restore some normalcy. we start in the next election by doing everything that we possibly can to make sure donald trump never gets near the oval office again and to make sure that every member of congress that has been an enabler of donald trump's agenda is also held accountable and voted out of office. [applause] >> very well said.

just underscore something to read you alluded to something important. i always try to catch myself to make sure i'm not being hyperbolic talking about donald trump. i don't want to fall into the trap of trump derangement syndrome. but i want to tell you that a somebody that knew him very well and spend a lot of time with him is that the worst things you have heard are only scratching the surface. this is an unprecedented moment we are in. granted, we are some of the more vocal former trump staffers, but he has been denounced by all of his most seem -- most senior staff. we have never seen that in modern american history. multiple white house chief of staff, multiple secretaries of defense, his former national security advisor, his former communications director. people that saw him in the most decision-making environments say he is unfit and threatens democracy and people need to wake up to that. something i think we are all very passionate and energized about going into theseason, knot

months out from that and he could be presented -- president again, what would a second term look like? foundational he, and liz cheney has made this point before, we are not even out of the woods if he leaves. the idea that his supporters wiakand it will not be another contested election where you have a speaker of the house potentially who is not going to certify election results depending on the makeup of congress. and if he does win, what that could look like. can bo you think would happen ia second term based on what we know from what he has said? >> i like to touch on what he has said very vocally about schedule f appointments, something that was actually discussed at the end of his first term too. i focus a lot on schedule off because i think it is something that sometimes, at least in my view, we get in the

beltway talk. the average american person might not know what a schedule f government employee is. but essentially donald trump wants to take schedule as employees, career civil servants , and be able to fire them and replace them with trump loyalists. we have seen that donald trump and his supporters and enablers and different groups have already started compiling databases of people that are sufficiently loyal to fill the spots for him. in a second trump term there will not be people that are willing to stick up for the truth. there will be people that are willing to execute donald trump's plan and it donald trump's plan only. that is fundamentally un-american. that's fundamentally undemocratic. that is, in my view, one of the biggest threats to the constitutional republic we are facing. >> going off of that too we see now even in his court case is where he is arguing that he

should have presidential immunity. his law years literally arguing he would be allowed to assassinate someone and get away with it because he was acting as president. i think we should take him at his word when he says things like this. because, it's very easy to get desensitized by all the crazy stuff that comes out of his mouth. i think a lot of americans have. i think we are able to tune that out because he just continues to say these kinds of crazy things. he is talking about wanting to weaponize the government and put in loyalists to carry out his agenda, and he has even called for doing away with parts of the constitution, this is someone that has no regard for our constitution, no respect for our institutions him and he does not care about the rule of law. he thinks he is above the law.

that's really scary to think of a second donald trump term because this is something i have tried to make the case for two people who i know that still support donald trump or are considering voting for him. that, the donald trump yal scene in 2016 and the donald trump of 2024 are different people. in 2016 he ran on an optimistic message. make america great again. the campaign message now in 2024 is all about retribution. it's all about msit's not aboutg your everyday life and making policy changes in that way. it is literally about him wanting to consolidate power in the government to weaponize the power, to enact revenge on his political enemies. >> building off that, he is a man that prioritizes authoritarian rule over rule of law.

somebody like that near the nuclear codes. we can't let somebody like that occupy the oval office. we can't let somebody like that get reelected to the white house. i know that if one day hopefully i am fortunate enough to have children of my own i don't want to have to explain to my children that we were all bystanders as the greatest democracy in the history of the world is crumbling. and we are just watching it happen before our eyes. i think when donald trump says -- and he acts like he jokes saa dictator only on day one. you aren't a dictator for one day. if donald trump is reelected, that is the greatest step towards facets -- fascism we have taken in the country and that it will not -- and i do not know if we would be able to return from that. >> we have to look at the domestic front and international political front when it comes to donald trump. on the domestic front the first

term they did not really know what they were doing. to put it mildly. [laughter]. >> learning curve area -- curve. >> he did not know how to use delever the -- use the levers of he will second term. and there were people that offered checks throughout. i think of a conversation donald trump made last weesayingrs dide their shares that russia should invade them and he would essentially do away with article five of nato. he talked about doing that in the first term. he wanted to that -- to do that in the first term if not for john bolton and secretary esper being there to stop him. that could have already happened and those people won't be there next time. to your point the heritage foundation, once esteemis namesa future administration that is full of, as they have described it, tucker, not ronald

reagan's or paul ryan's. we are looking at the most powerful institutions in government being staffed with sycophants and loyalists not people with experience that have a global perspective. on the domestic front he knows how he can use the system better. something he started to delve into in his term was appointing people in acting capacities at departments. it's a white -- way to bypass senate confirmation. we essentially have three equal but separate branches of government for a reason. him going into the second term would intentionally put people in acting capacities to bypass tone through confirmation and they could be there for 180 days without any senate approval. what you can do in that amount of time is actually quite stunning and scary. be thinking about who are the voices he is amplifying? who are the people he is surrounding himself with? those are the people he will bring to government. it is a really scary moment. want to ask you guys, the

future of the party. it is really hard to be sitting here, the three of us, eight months from an election, three years after january 6. it feels like the party is completely lined up behind him. he will very likely senominatios not the first week of march. what can we do in the eight months ahead? >>3. i am definitely encouragedy this room of people. it shows me that even though we might be small there is a growing number of republicans and independents that are fed up with donald trump at his chaos and divisiveness. that want a return to normalcy in our politics. i love hearing the message from nikki haley, honestly, on the campaign trail. she has been leaning into this. do you want a normal candidate? i think we all crave that. we want to go back to that. yes, republicans and democrats have always fought. but, i think things have just gotten so ugly in the last 10,

20 years. so, i think that i feel encouraged by this remand -- broom, and at least for me i want to do everything i can either that several months to ensure donald trump is never president again and i am hopeful that by speaking out it will encourage others to come forward and even i feel like as i have mentioned with nikki haley, the turn we have seen from her in the last couple months and her getting more aggressive in her attacks against donald trump, m. honestly, too, even in the primaries of a chris christie, asa hutchinson, will heard, their voices were so important. even if they were not going to be able to overcome donald trump it shows me there are politicians out there that have a backbone and are willing to stand up and say this is not acceptable. i hope that we will see more of those people start to run for office. and it does concern me too when i said about the current makeup

of our government. we are seeing a lot of the more normal republicans start to retire now. recently we had mike gallagher from wisconsin say he was going to retire. like in his 40's. he was the chair of a committee. he is so fed up with washington, clearly. he wants to be as far away from it as possible and is going to retire. it makes me sad. we need in congress and less people like marjorie taylor greene. so, --. applause --. [applause] itou you wish to see in the world and i really hope more people will be set up and seek to run for office. i hope morespeak out against dop

as we get closer to the election. >> to build on that, sarah, you are on fire today. but, to briefly build on that, as i have been traveling around the country these past few months i have been very encouraged by the amount of young people that see the threat donald trump poses. but we need to do more. we need to do more to mobilize voters. we need to do more to educate voters. the reality is the next election will come down to a handful of states, similar to how it happened in 2020. we need to focus on those estates to make sure those constituents are adequately educated on who they are voting for. and if the ticket is a binary choice joe biden people need to understand that at a very basic, very fundamental level, that

there would be one candidate on the ballot that will support our democracy and continue to support our policies so we can continue to thrive and it is not donald trump. [applause] in saying that too, we cannot just focus on donald trump. donald trump is a big part of the problem i don't want to underscore that. but, we also need to focus on congress because donald trump would need to congress, or joe biden, in a potential second term, would need to rely on congress. right now, the republicans running for reelection or running for office are not honorable people. they are not serious politicians. if this means we need to vote them all out and rebuild the party from the ground up, that is what we have to do. this moment is so much bigger than partisan potics. it's about the future of our country.

there can be no stone left unturned after this november. [applause] >> that is a very important point. donald trump is the biggest part of the problem but we need to look beyond that. congress matters. i appreciate that liz cheney, adhering to the first motto said i want good republicans to win and i want to win and i want bad republicans out. frankly this house republican conference is dangerous and enabling donald trump. there's a handful of good ones. i want to shout out donald fitzpatrick who seems to be doing a discharge position to get aid to ukraine. [applause] but if you are continually lying to the public, withholding critical aid from our allies, refusing to secure our southern border to deny a win to the right and administration get out. -- divided administration, get

out, that's not what we need. >> something i want to add piggybacking off the idea of republicans and people in the house being a threat in terms of them being willing to do whatever it is for donald trump. it is so funny. looking at the current speaker of the house, mike johnson and he really is not much of a speaker all. ■■because, he makes kevin mccary look like nancy pelosi. >> kevin will love that. >> he reallyreally sad. he actually has such a moment right now to fundamentally impact the history of the world with aid to ukraine. i mean, like, if we don't send them this money they will probably run out of resources and ammunition in.

not even months, weeks is what i heard a member of congress say on tv recently during a briefing on that. that's so concerning. currently on recess until february 28. the last two weeks that is what they have been doing. insteaof their doing their jobs passing this aid to bill. i think this could send a message in the wake of alexei navalny's death that america will stand on the side of freedom, not people and vladimir putin. it is very unfortunate that it appears that speaker johnson just a puppet for the puppeteer donald trump. x and vladimir putin -- >> and a vladimir putin. >> it is also a contrast looking at cpac this weekend. i have heard it reported have not sold nearly the amount of tickets they have in previous years. i wonder why?

it is because of the lovely people here. this also speaks to where the party is. there are people they're apologizing for vladimir putin that aren't sticking up for ukraine. it is beyond my comprehension why this has become such a polarizing issue. it is pretty straightforward at the end of the day which is unfortunate. but this is american freedom. what has made america special and unique since our founding is that we have been able to either correct our wrongs and look towards our better angels and a world stage. in america we are very fortunate. we have not had a direct threat to our country like we are facing right now is how it staro happen. look at countries like venezuela whether his dream -- where the regime completely toppled because people were not paying attention to the very

fundamental values of democracy and what we stand for in our republic. when we look at the next election, like what sarah was saying, we need to think about the example we are sitting on the world stage too. >> i want to note, whether you love or dislike nikki haley she is proving something important in this historic moment. that about one third of republicans cannot be with donald trump. they are pleading for someone else. all of us in this room have a degree of power as a minority in being able to try to stop him from winning the presidency. but to cassidy's point, and this is why we also stay vigilant, seven swing states and .5 million voters will ultimately determine this election. donald trump will lose by the largest margin of the popular vote probably in modern history. there are more americans that do not want donald trump than that want him. that does not mean he will not be in the oval office again. we have to use our voice and we have to speak out. i want to give you both a closing word here.

if the moment of coming to ukrae's eight against russia is not a sobering one for republicans in congress to step away from donald trump just once and vote, if someone like lindsey graham, a hawk, john mccain's best friend cannot but up and do it in this mom too fa. we constantly quote liz cheney saying that there will be a day when donald trump is gone and their dishonor will remain. the world is watching. our children are watching. we need to get this through. [applause] >> final thoughts? closing words? >> i echo everything alyssa just said and in brief closing i want to thank you all, seriously, from the bottom of my heart for being here today and for listening. one of the biggest fears i had before i came forward and spoke

out was that people would not listen. r society now we have an issue where we often talk to be heard, not to be listened to. the fact tha you are all sitting here listening to us speak, that gives us a platform. this brings legitimacy to the fact that is a fundamentally dangerous man. the more we can create environments where people feel they are being listened to and that there arehoheard, you knowa cautionary tale of what can happen and always did happen. it is not a story of complete retribution for myself. this is an arc. it is what i work towards everyday. honestly, some of the most difficult days for me came after i testified. that is really when i began to process the magnitude of how dangerous what i was involved in was. the other thing i would say is

in the next election cycle, please, using your voice is. keep talking to people. please keep listening. that is the only way we get out from theirs. it is if we come out from underneath of it. but it takes all of us coming together regardless of our political affiliation to do so. [applause] >> tough to follow that,i thinkd is correct. speaking out against our former boss that happens to be most powerful man in the world and president of the united states can be very scary and isolating. so, being in a room full of people like you all make that kind of voice it. i think all of us have sacrificed a lot in different wayseak out because we thought it wasn't morally correct to do. i think that this gives me hope

that maybe that there can be a change and we can move past donald trump and chart a new course for our future. >> i would like to also thank alyssa farah griffin one for being here, but two, she was really the first person to take that step in early december and resign. i have goosebumps now because she set the example for people like sarah and i. i want to thank liz cheney. i want to thank adam kinzinger. i wa pelosi for being steadfast creating the january 6 committee. [applause] and finally, i want to think and pay tribute to the work that is currently going on in a lot of different court systems in america.

and that we respect the court process as it plays out. that there will be a day when the courts will rule but we can't rely on the courts to stop donald trump. we have to stop donald trump in these next few months. >> thank you sarah matthews and cassidy hutchinson. a round of applause. [applause] as for year, and symbols -- we award our profiles at a courage award and it isjoined by our 20. harry dunn now running for

congress at capitol police officer. we know the courage he showed on january 6 afterwards. cassidy, we give this award, our agenda committee and are host committee, our grassroots committee, we vote every year to pick somebody that really exemplifies what it means to be principals first, to put the country ahead of party and even personal interest and stand up, early time in your career with so much on the line. that is exactly what everyone in this room and so many around the country have been asking our elected leaders to do. republicans, just end up and take one risk. you have done that in spades. this is for you. weo have you here. thank you.

[applause] all right. get that logo in there. [laughte one more, ok. thanks. [applause] all right. we will keep chugging along here. the next session is going to be a slight change. from how it currently appears.

i think we will really all enjoying this next discussion. i think we will change the title to, unplugged and unafraid with mr. charlie sykes. it is my pleasure to welcome him to the stage. i don't think he needs nt introduction -- any introduction. it should be a great conversation. charlie, take a seat. [applause] all right. mr. charlie sykes in the flesh. what an honor to have you here. >> it is good to be out of the basement. [laughter] . >> i think this might be your third. you have been here with us from the very beginning, in the trenches. obviously everyone in this room has listened to your podcast and read your writings. i'm curious, from your perspective as someone that has been in the business for years and seen the ebbs and flows,

from the media perspective, 2024 elections covered donald trump wants. they know the drill to some extent. is the media going to cover donald trump in 2024 the right way? are they going to get it right? >> no. >> thank you. >> thank you for having me back. i appreciate it. it is always great to be in a room of people who are also not crazy. that's the price of admission for all of you. the media won't get 2024 right and we have already seen evidence of this. donald trump has broken the model of american journalism. american journalism has not recovered. to give you an example, i actually brought notes. i thought you might ask that question. i want you to think about some news stories over the last couple months. ok?

donald trump called for the death penalty for general mark milley. he mocked the hammer ak the 80 plus-year-old husband of nancy pelosi. he has called repeatedly for the summary execution of shoplifters. he endorsed x traditional murders. he asked -- extrajudicial murders. vladimir putin days after he launched a genocidal war against ukraine for help in smearing joe biden. n i just stop right here? these stories on earth to point to what have dominated -- two point zero what have dominated the helild have been wall-to-wal coverage. but when you go through them you go, i forgot about that one. because, the news media, again,

i think ifou them, you know, this is not normal, you know that, right? yet, we pretend it's normal. we pretend it's reasonably within the range of normal politics. as you watch the political coverage, if you blinked, you can think, it is 1996 all over again. it's 1984. when in fact, we are seeing an amazing transformation of american politics. i know that i am preaching to the choir here. we are not sufficiently alarmed by this. i don't want you to be despond and. i want alarm but not to be despond and. are up against. every time you hear the horse race stuff, the polls, the focus group.

it's like, yeah this is why we have a primary election. this is election night. as if, somehow, we have not broken something fundamental. 50% of the way through my list. donald trump incited an attempt to overthrow the government. that is like number three on the list. as the previous panel mentioned, he openly called for terminating elements of the constitution to restore him to power. just take that story. how many front pages we devoted to that for one week. i think the questions about joe biden's age are legitimate, i want to say that. butden stumbled coming off air force one that would receive more coverage than any of these stories. i think that's part of the problem. so in the last week, donald trump basically said he would abandon our nato allies and

invited vladimir putin to invade europe if people did not pay their nato dues, which do not after the murder of alexei navalny shocked the conscience of the world, donald trump was unable to come up with any comment because he was too busy hawking golden tin issues. then, he compared himself to alexei navalny. that's obscene. the problem is, we have the banality of crazy. there is so much. there are so many moments that would be disqualifying. when he was campaigning against nikki haley, he was mocking, where's nikki's husband? where her husband? he was doing what you were too afraid to do, put on the uniform

and go defend the country. was that a page 14 story or anything? we keep going through all this. he has made it very clear that if elected president he will pardon the rioters that attacked the capitol. that beat up police officers. now, again, i know i use the phrase too much, i am old enough to remember when the republicans claimed to be the party of law & order and back the blue. here he is saying i will stand in solidarity with people that literally beat up police officers. how is that not a consuming news story? how everyday go without having republicans in congress shown a picture of somebody saying, would you support pardoning this person? do you think this is a genuine

american hero? i have not even gotten to the fact he paid off torn star -- off a porn star or a federal jury and judge said he raped one then. somebody asked today, debts vitamin put in have compromise on donald does vladimir putin have compromise on donald trump? what more could you have that stormy daniels? and e. jean carroll? the republican party says yeah, we are ok with that. the question was, where the media get 2024 right? no. they will continue to go maybe we can have a town hall meeting with donald trump. this will be a ratings get for us. we will cover both sides as if this is a reasonable moment in american politics.

i do not know what the right answer is except that, you have to call lies you have to not turn your platform over to someone like this. you cannot pretend that will happen in my hometown in milwaukee this summer is normal political convention when the colt gathers to anoint donald trump. i am sorry. that was somewhat of a long answer. >> you covered a lot of good ground. >> i gave you the short answer. >> a lot of things to jump in on there. one thing i am particularly interested in when i hear you talk about the responsibility of the legacy mainstream outlets. i think a big problem is the silo-ization of the way we consume news. so many americans are not even watching these networks, to some degree.

to a lot of degrees some don't watch them at all. they are watching newsmax. they are on twitter or andrew tate on youtube talking about god knows what. how does that happen? you have been in conservative media ecosystems back when it was normal. is that a problem we can fix? is it addressable? or will it just continue to get worse? >> i think it is likely to get worse before it gets better. i wrote my book about how the right lost its mind in 2017. i was pessimistic, but it was way worse than i thought. this silo-ization has accelerated all of the incentive structures in the media to silo people off and create safe spaces so people don't talk to one another. i do not see that changing anytime soon. in fact, if you understand what the business model now of the

right-wing ecosystem is, imagine meth dealers on the street in competition with one anoer and the only way to stay ahead is by selling stronger meth than the guy on the next block read you have to keep ramping up the outrage, ramping up the hippie punching, etc.. if you back off from that, you run the risk of losing your audience. we are seeing the audience capture. i know people think, if we just did this to fox news, it is not always compound. -- top down. but a lot of it is bottom up. these are my people, have to follow them, the heart wants what it wants and they are captured by an audience demanding harder and harder and harder stuff. now, news, i am afraid, is that if you step back from what is happening right now -- and i want to talk about the crazy pill thing -- we spent the

last eight years going, why is this happening? why do people believe this sort of s? when will it go back to normal? it is not going back to normal. in fact, what is happening now is a reminder of what happens in a society where people become isolated, alienated from one another, board. of the mediating institutions of society following and we are all spending time in silos. the silos, to your point, understand that all of the outrages i just mentioned about donald trump, that is maybe 40% of the country -- there is maybe 40% of the country that does not know any of it, that will never hear any of it. unless there are ads on the hallmark channel or something that told him this. which isn't a terrible idea, by the way. i think this atomization is going to continue. i think it becomes more and more

difficult. i think i have told you this story, how as atributor, i always assumed everyone got both sides of the story. by 2016, it was pretty obvious you could not push back against fake news because it if it was outside the silo, people do not want to hear it. those of you who have relatives, you know how hard it is. you have a piece of fake information, how do you refute it? the answer is it is irrefutable. we are going through a period of real tectonic change. i don't want to compare what we are going through now to, deathr i or that oppression, but the reality is the world has changed globally. we are not alone. there have been dislocations that are taking place across the world.

the pandemic changed a lot of things. if anyone here imagines we will go back to the politics of the before tim -- i think that is why we are so shocked all the time because we think we understand. americans like this, politics is like this. if a happens, b happens. are we the crazy ones that is not happening? the problem is that world does not exist anymore for millions of americans and we will have to get used to this. this is something that will not get resolved in 2024. heath: optimistic discussion. [laughter] i am just tracing forward that arc you are sketching because i agree with it. i don't think it is think people up and we will have starting nice monday morning conversations about the debate. i'm just curious what the people in this room, what citizens,

consumers of news and information, and citizens, like you say,■s ee ball teams with these people that are getting a completely different ntive. how do you break that cycle? at the end of the day, we cannot address siloization with more siloization. i don't know the answer. i ask it a lot. i am curious if you have thoughts on what people in this room can do to address that problem. charlie: you are right. you cannot fight siloization with more siloization. i know there are some people who believe that the response to all of this is for those of us that look at donald trump, see what donald trump is doing, that watch this mad rush towards extremism and say the only way to fight this is we all need to become liberal now.

we need to fight the tribalism by all emphasizing our tribal loyalties to the other side. it is dangerous because this party needs two rational political parties. from my point of view, the most important people in american politics are the people in this room right now. the people who are center-right, in the center. the people like liz cheney. people like adam kinzinger. people like mitt romney, larry hogan. those people who have said we are still republicans, but we are not crazy, we are not authoritarians. we signed up for libertarian party, not a fascist party. those are the people who can st■tillgg speak to the people wo determined that election, which are the swing voters, maybe half a million voters in seven states.

those people are conservatives, who have voted republican, may republican up and down the ticket despite what i may tell them to do. but, will say donald trump is a bridge too far. he is not normal. he is an existential threat to american democracy and we are going to bail. if we decide, no, really, we like all the policies of the liberal left and we are not concerned about the attacks on liberalism coming from the left -- the decision i have made is that there is an attack from the left and then the liberalism of the right. the liberalism of the left is like long-term cancer. th liberalism of the right right now is like a heart attack, immediate. right now, you call 911.

that, but don't pretend there are not other problems. don't cut yourself off, silo yourself off from millions of americans who are fundamentally decent people. how do you do it? you show up. you go to little league. you go to t-ball, you go to soccer peter you know what you . you know what you notice about the people standing around? they are not crazy. they may be on a weird facebook page. this is the thing that makes me take the crazy pills. these are people who would never tolerate this kind of behavior from their children's coaches, from their babysitters, from a coworker. they teach sportsmanship. they teach decency. they want their children to treat one another with respect. they believe in the truth. yet, somehow wheit comes tt to e presidency, they are willing to

set all of that aside. so, to the extent there is some optimism, this vestige of fundamental decency that if you get them away from -- the way i would do it is don't start by talking about donald trump. start showing that you share their values, that you understand them, that you don't hold them in contempt. once they realize you are like them and that you care about the things they care about, then you can move to the others. you start at the top line, you know how it goes. you have all had that conversation. you start the principles. heath: i want to switch gears a bit. in one of the other panels, they talked about mike gallagher resigning, recently making that decision. paul ryan stepped down before him.

good principled conservatives who basically said i'm out, i'm done. i don't want to put up with this. i'm curious, is there hope in wisconsin? do you think those guys will be back? should we expect them back or do you think they have just accepted the state of the party? charlie: paul ryan is never coming back. no. i think in some ways, that is unfortunate because he represented an alternative direction for the republican party. i know there are some people who believe that donald trump is just a logical extension of where every republican was going. i don't think that is true. one of the things i've been doing lately is i have been walking my dogs a lot more often lately. i actually got a couple of audible books, listening to all the cole. impossible to go back into that

before time and listen to mind like that and think, yeah, this will lead to trumpism. the nuance, the intelligence, the understanding of history. the appreciation for the american values, the rule of law. to your question, the story about mike gallagher, you are all familiar about it? young, bright congressman from wisconsin. had to make compromises with ma. in the last two weeks, he said i'm am not running for reelection, i'm leaving. i think there's a larger pattei. waves always break sooner or later. the republican partys in the process of eating its young, its intelligent young. think about what the bench will look like for the republican party. if you are a really bright young guy like a mike gallagher or

fill in the blanks, look at the list of people who have retired. these are people who say i don't want to be part of this anymore. i like being a congressman, but not if i have to sit in the same ro lauren boebert or matt gaetz. this shit is not worth it anymore. if you are young republican, you want to get into public life, what do you have to do right now? think of the crap sandwiches you have to swallow. think of the things you have to kiss and the litmus tests you have to pass. all of these young men and women are saying i will do something else with my life. look 20, 30 years from years fr. what is the bench of the republican party going to be looking like? what is the youn generation going to look like? because right now, donald trump

is dominant in the republican party. maga is in complete triumph. but, the price is think about all the people who are self-supporting, self-selecting themselves out of that political party. i think that will have consequences for a long time. heath: we have a couple minutes left. i want to offer maybe a counter narrative of maybe the next four to six years. suppose -- i am of the view that trump's grip on the republican party is not really rooted in any sort of policy agenda. he has not convinced everyone to abandon their ideas. it is not really an idea thing. it is the■ cult of his personality. the fact that are not very many strong leaders to go up against him in the party. he's like this big, charismatic -- i will say it. agree with him or not, he's got

some charisma and personality at resonates with the voters. charlie: i really don't get that. [laughter] heath: it's enough to capture the voters. it is like a big hot sun in the middle of a maga solar system that keeps all the planets revolving. i think one counter narrative could be that when that sun is gone, when you take that sun out of the solar system, it will be a itit will be crazy. you will have marjorie taylor greene, vivek. it will be chaos. in that moment, when there's no leader, no person that can fill those crazy shoes that he has created, is th where does the party go? i don't think it goes back to reagan. if you are in that narrative, whats the conservative movement after trump look like if one could possibly exist?

charlie: that is an interesting question because that will be a helluva moment when he leaves. it will not be a snapback, but it will be what some theorists call the plastic moment in history where you have theointss in play and in a short time, you can have really dramatic choices. from the highest level, i would say this will be a maga-like party for a long time, but one caveat today -- it is saturday. haley will go down in defeat in south carolina and the usual pundits will say see, there's no room for anyone like that in the republican party. but, i would say the debate that is taking place right now over the future of ukraine is going to be one of those decisive debates. republicans have shown a willingness to cave in on virtually everything else. i am not naive about that.

but right now, the more traditional conservative republican internationalist point of view, it is an endangered species, but it is not extinct yet. if there was a vote in the house of representatives, if mike johnson, when he comes back from vacation, find a paragraph in deuteronomy that tells him he can have a vote -- [laughter] the vote would be overwhelming. i think there would be 300 bipartisan votes for aid to ukraine. you saw there were 70 bipartisan votes in the senate, so there is still a very live issue. so, i do thinthpossibility thatf those wedge issues, there is hope you will push back against -- i think this debate about ukraine is going to be so serious, but also try to think ahead.

what is the next step? the story of donald trump and vladimir putin is not going to get any better. it's not going to improve. the election cycle is not going to make things calmer. so, part of the difficulty of making these predictions you are talking about is we don't know the level of chaos that is still coming. i'm always glad to see harry dunn up here, but every time i see him -- the police officer who saved thei think jas rehearsal. does anyone in this room think th donald trump will graciously concede defeat in 2024? does anyone? what do you think the aftermath of the 2024 election is going to be like? we were shocked after 2020.

is the miamight there be anothet on the capitol? other outbreaks of political violence? that is a wedge issue in the future. right now, donald trump can provide cover for every sort of dishonesty, immorality, every sort of incident of wink-wink domestic terrorism. i am not sure that will survive. i think if you believe -- none of what i am saying is ideological. it is not right versus left. it is a fundamental decency, a sense of right and wrong. i think as you watch the international stage play out, but also what might happendomese might be a pivot moment coming. heath: thank you very much. charlie: thank you. [applause]