just under an hour and a■ half.

[background noises]7h [background noises] i am pleased to call today's hearing to order. all for joining senator capitol and me too explore one of our favorite topics and that is recycling. specifically we are here to discuss the sustainability policy called extended producer

responsibilitynd how these programs can improve recycling infrastructure and recycling practices. so what exactly is responsibility extended responsibility establishes a system in which financial responsibility for products lifs shifted upstream to producers of those. and how to extend policies worker? well, states or countries adopt policies that may require producers to pay a fee that is associated with their goods to a producer whose responsibility organization. and then these organizations can use the revenues for the expansion of recycling infrastructure. and for consumer education. consumer packaging materials like plastic, like cardboard or aluminum theory as we know

greatly the respect recyclability. some materials such as paper have more viable products and viable markets rather than others. we are pretty good in this country of recycling. extended producer responsibility policies can consider these differences in materials and their fee structure which can incentivize producers to make more packages sustainable. for example in colorado there working to establish a program where fees will be assigned to goods based on their environmental impact. products that are more easily used or recycled will have a lower associated fee for the producer to pay. difficult to recycle repackaging like plastic films fee in order to pay a lower fee in the system in colorado producers it can cae packaging as a lower

environmental costs. programs and several other states have also shown real potential. in oregon, and maine have recently established extended producer responsibility package policies for packaging regardless of the material type. more states adopt these policies it is critical the federal government understand how to support responsibility efforts moving forward. we are hoping today's discussion sheds light on just some of the activity going on in our states and what the proper role of the federal government should be. extended producer responsibility policies can also help drive recycling rates up. since producer responsibility organizations and governments can use revenue they generate to improve recycling infrastructure and expand access to recycling and communities including ruralc

communities. right now consumer packaging makes approximately one third of all plastics produce and i'll say that again consumer packaging makes approximate a third of all plastics produced. and sadly as we know plastics are not commonly recycled in america. according to the epa, 2018 less than 9% of plastics were recycled in the u.s. again. less then 9% of plastics were recycled in the u.s. just a couple years ago. you put that figure into perspective it's even smaller than the national recycling rate for all materials which is roughly 32%. as members of this it committee have heard me say it more than they want to remember, but i'd like to say find out what works and do more of that. these policies actually can work. for example the extended producer responsibility program in british columbia was able to

achieve an impressive residential recycling material rate of 86%. 86%. and 2022 up from 37% in 2004. pretty amazing before it was implemented in that country. and as we will hear today, it's also been a surgeon private extended producer responsibility policy, why is that? we know what most americans want to make sustainable purchasingcs growing. according to a 2020 survey conducted by mckenzie mortgage -- more than 60% of responders said they would pay more for a product with sustainable packaging. large consumer brands have noticed most companies have established ambitious sustainability goals such as using a minimum amount of

content in their packaging extended producer responsibility policies can help producers meet those goals. however it is worth noting the extended producer responsibility policy on their own will not fix our waste management system. these policie in tandem with other investments in infrastructure and education and data collection. fortunately congress has a track rerd o making such investments. as you may recall a part of the bipartisan info structure law which was written in this committee and managed on the floor by this lady right here in yours truly and became law in 2021. our committee worked to secure three to $50 million to strengthen recycling infrastructu and provide recycling education grants across the u.s. of a. bipartisan work to strengthen our nations systems does not stop there. last adapted to other two other

pieces of bipartisan recycling legislation at the urging of senator capitol. senator boozman and myself. smooth displays which help gather much needed data to improve access to recycling infrastructure and rural and disadvantaged communities. this congress et cetera capitol, et cetera boozman and i are committed to see both of these move across in closing we know recycling is a win/win. if it is an environment it can also benefit at the same time in the economy. that is the kind of win/win situation we all look for it. that's why our committee continues to consider further opportunity to support better recycling practices. we are looking forward to hearing from before review and we welcome

you. thank you for joining us. you brought your family there in the committee will turn to ranking member capitol and her leadership and we look forward to your marks. >> thank youd morning to all of you. it is nice to be here this morning for this committee's continued focus on sustainability and waste management and underscore the factn this country and around the world. i get a complex issue it's easy to sit here and lisette all the problems but it's very, very difficult to start finding realistic solutions. one crowd sandwich and all plastic production tomorrow that doesn't make sense. acknowledging our continued reliance on plastic and working to prevent is not mutually exclusive private sector sustainability goals international development like the management

with global footprints or staring down uncertain regulatory and economic future for it my primary focus in evaluating extended producer responsibility policies undernse they are grounded in reality. consider the downstream impacts to everyday consumers included regressive cost to be passed down. especially in rural areas currents recycling programs are more limited the cost of standing up once are more expensive. companies cannot operate do not have in mind. and disposal requirements to sell their products if every state has their own. show estates with the biggest population and the most stringent restrictions will become the regulatory could unfairly dictate to state

like mine that have structural impediments to recycling access anresources defining that necessary infrastructure. preventing this outcome with standards and its market uncertainties as to why we need to bring these types of conversations nationwide impacts of epr policy. to a potential revenue driver and a competitive advantage in district government environmental community must work together to achieve outcomes that protect the outcome and grow the economy. to become achievable we must be in my and avoid mandates rent epr or circularity that may have unintended the federal standards are imposed it may show growth in the emerging sector and in the emerging sector. we see this happening irs guidelines on hydrogen tax credits with no basis in law or

stifling the development that's in my state in my hydrant hub that's why he bring it up. the cannot be allowed to happen in the recycling and waste management. during today's hearing were likely hear statements such as the devil is in the details or if done correctly these precautionary will arise in our discussions. they emphasized the need to discuss all the potential consequences both intended and unintended. significantly improve domestic recycling the reduce and provide new opportunities economically. equally so a poorly crafted epr scheme late regressive burdens on consumers, privilege large companies over smaller companies open the door for targeted bands for materials out of favor such as plastics. i can understand the rationale i have yet to see a proposal that

adequately is addressing all these concerns that's why we are here today to start in epr schemef chemical recycling. we'll never improve meaningful rates of must carefully consider what stakeholders but stakeholders should have a role in decision-making such as it waste management industry this ten left out temperate when you think about the appropriate role of government by the last thing us companies need are another layer of bureaucracy to navigate. i look forward to hearing the panel and look forward. >> thank you, senator capitol. our three witnesses we are pleased to welcome each of you to our committee today. i think we will hear first doctor johnson for it what is the h stand for?

>> herbert. >> the chairman ceo sc johnson and son. makes many of us have in our homes and households including is it myers or mayors? >> mrs. myers. and windex cleaners which i have not used since yesterday. [laughter] weekend.told h h [laughter] they also have ambitious sustainability goals to make products more recyclable and reusable. doctor johnson, thank you for joining us today. you are welcome to begin your testimony at this time, thank you. carper and ranking member capitol and distinguished members of the committee for the opportunity to talk today. this is an incredibly important topic. i am a scientist by education but i've spent the last 37 years

in my career in the packaged goods industry. and as a of a large global consumer goods company that is a big user of plastic i see plastic into very different ways. on one hand i status the most useful versatile cost-effective materials developed in the last century it has brought extraordinary benefits to human life and well-being on this planet. on the other hand as a lifeline conservationist i have seen how plastic has become one of the most profound global pollutants that's affecting planetary animal and human health. the challenge is reconciling those two perspectives. how we as a society can and would in a practically most economically and least disruptive preserve the benefits of plastic is brought to humanity while preventing the

vast amounts of plastic that end up in landfills or worse end up in the environment where it can affect animal and human health. now our company has a long history of environmental leadership. i have long seen our companies of plastic and packaging waste something we have been working on for very long time. we launched our first one to percent recycled plastic bottle 33 years ago in 1990. we have continued to take numerous actions and launched many other initiatives to ruc p. we are going to continue to do so whether it is improving pcr content in our products, providing reit use, refill options or other initiatives. however, for all of our countries working i cannot say i can raise my hand and say i feel

good about the progress we have made. innovations of one company can try or efforts we can take, individual far. it is incredibly difficult for an individual business or even businesses as a whole to makeerc waste. it takes everyone in the plastic ecosystem working collectively together from plastic manufacturers, packaged goods companies like ourselves, retailers, recyclers to individual useé■rs or plastic products all coming together, working collectively because the scale up matters. scale at retail, skillet recycling, scale and supply, scale and education programs. scale through everyone in thelug together holistically.

without scale we tend to get expensive ineffective piecemeal approaches.

enacted and goals are set and the more time that is given to achieve those, the less the disruption there will be to business, the economy and consumers. time will allow for product innovation and recycling technology innovation and allows for education programs and allows for annvestment in capacity into recycling and recg infrastructure and many other things. many organizations hupport and k what the world wildlife fund has done in particular has created some excellent work to educate it's workable in closing i would like to say i believe it is a critical issue that needs to be addressed and a practical good way to make substantial progress is through a national regulatory framework where you can achieve skill and take spots ability for the lifecycle of the

products and i think the sooner goals and expectations are set for the industry and a time is given to meet those goals better. thank you. >> doctor johnson, thank you for leading us and now turn to aaron simon for her comments. vice president plastic waste and business at the world wildlife fund. ms. simon has been with the world wildlife fund 2011, is that right? , efforts to engage in the private sector to reduce plastic pollution. while commanded you are recognized for the next five minutes or so. >> thank you, chairman carper and ranking member o-uppercase-letter and other distinguished members he committee for the opportunity to testify today. before i came to wwf, i was a packaging engineer and scientist working here for ten years. he spent a lot of time designing

packages and for products both that were large-format and moved to the rooms that started up on walmart shelves. so when we talk about this topic today, not only am i passionate about it but i can talk about it from a few different perspectives. >> that's maybe why we invited you to come. [laughter] world wildlife fund is one of the world's leading around for over 60 years in our mission is to protect the world's resources for future generations and to help to address somebiggest chae planet today like plastic pollution. plastics are essalthey've helpee insurmountable challenges, but the cost of that innovation has been quite extreme.s generatingf the plastic waste in the world that's ending up in the rivers,

coastlines and communities and it's eat is 11 million metric tons of plastic pollution entering every year. just a little bit of perspective that is a dump truck per minute so in the hour we might be talking that would be 60 dump trucks heading to the oceans and they are ending up everywhere from the ecosystems we are trying to protect to the city sidewalks. impacting the communities and economies and of course leading to the growing health crisis of micro plastics in the food and water. so to be clear, it isn't anti-plastic. we think it can be a cornerstone to many of the innovations that they don't have a place in nature they are ending up. curryvily on the single use economy where we make news and get rid of plastics and we need to turn the system into a circular economy and that's going to require a multifaceted approach that

protects the communities, the environment and the economy. and we see this and our partners as a huge untapped opportunity for the u.s. and its leadership and so massive that if we were to start today to transform the plastic economy into a circular one, we could than $4 trillion in direct and environmental and social cost by 2040. policies like extended producer responsibility can be a critical part of the solution. we know they are responsible for the robust recycling and other parts of the world. creates powl incentives for companies to reduce and designed for the recycle ability and mitigate the environment. the shift of the responsibility the objective is for the physical organizational and financial structure to be shared between the producer and the government.

it creates a structure that increases the end of life and allows for better environmentally sound treatment and provides incentives for manufacturers to design more resources and invest in infrastructure. the epr principles are broadly supported by industry and other ngos like the governance model. it would ideally be established at the federal level and in this type of model the governments of the oversight but the day to day management and obligations to an industry led producer responsibility organization. in my written testimony i provided more details of that and recommended parameters for . they hope the conversation community will help pave the way for congress to develop and enact legislation and we are not alone in that. we have a track record working with companies to improve their

footprints and advocate for policy. in my written testimony i will elaborate on the work with companies like coca-cola and walmart. the companies support the federal apr as well as corporations up the line. they are also knowing the american public is fully behind you. i k that soon to be released from wwf public polling will show 85% that plastic waste pollution is a concerning problem that requires immediate political action to solve. this issue is one that we can all agree on and a circula economy is the only way forward to help us to get there and the government and industry outline the best in class system. members of the committee have introduced the accountability act into the recycling infrastructure and accessibility act and at the break free from plastic act. these demonstrate the bipartisan

recognition of the growing problem and the keen interest in addressing it. well-designed federal apr provides another opportunity to pass bipartisan legislation. thank you for the opportunity to testify today and for the committee's leadership. >> it sou private sector and the nonprofit sector. finally we will hear dan. my sister grew up in danville virginia and one of my favorite places south of dover they have a fire company. we have a lot of volunteer fire companies i'm sure. people ask me and i always see the fire hall. we are honest that you are here

with us today. i understand you are executive director. how do you pronounce it? representing a wide range of stakeholders in america's packaging supply chain and we are delighted you're here. please proceed. >> thank you. good >> we are having an interesting movement of people that comes in to the committee hearing room the likes of which i've not seen in a long time and a lot of them aryoit looks like high school ae and i think they are interested in recycling. that's a beautiful thing and we are happy to see this.

please proceed. >> that is democracy. good morning, chairman carver, ranking members of the committee. i am the executive director of the american institute for packaging and the environment. i very much appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today on this topic of extended producer responsibility for consumer packaging. this is a core issue for the u.s. packaging together to craft and implement effective shared responsibilities, solutions for the package and recovery and recycling. we are the only material inclusive trade association representing the entire packaging and value chain in the u.s.■@m that's material supplie, packaging manufacturers, brand owners who use that packaging, retailers and their rights ■material managers. the membership also includes a broad array of industry, product and material specific trade

associations who are essential to the fric. we focus on the size and a data to support the public policies and advocacy and engagement based on rigorous research he deep commitment to achieve sustainable packaging policies. packaging plays a vital role in the united states and ensuring the quality of consumer goods as they are manufactured, shift, stored and used protecting the health and safety of the products. packaging has value and none of it belongs on roadways, waterways or landfills. we know how to recover it■7 ande reused and no one knows better how to do that. to design, supply, produce, distribute, collect and reprocess the packaging. the driving innovation designing packaging for better environmental performance to boost recovery and r and evil the existing infrastructure. ameripen supports the decisions that are results based, effective and efficient and

equitable and fair. this is the bedrock as the states have now enacted full packaging walls and two additional states have enacted groundwork laws. we will support thoughtful packaging proposals that properly balance the needs of the not support poorly proposals that are not based on reality and will not result in positive environmental changes or gre packaging recovering. we were deeply involved in the legislative process for each of the states that havenacted the packaging walls and we are deeply engaged in the implementation. there is a lack of consistency between these laws and the addional prolssa the u.s. causing concern for many including brand owners that will be the primary responsible party for funding the programs. a deeper discussion iseritedmayt

continues to expand and whether something could or should be done at the federal level. tod be thrilled to work with policymakers and other stakeholders to explore the potential media design for any federal framework or program. while ameripen isn't suggesting there is an immediate need for a federal program or framework a consideration must balance approach would likely be needed to manage the organizational structure for any program that moves forward to develop a national plan, pool resources and provide program funding. a federal government entities such as environmental protection

ag to have oversight and the organizational mechanisms to coordinate with states in the existing management of solide a. facing the states to receive federal support might also be appropriate to allow the continued planning and management of solid waste and recycling at the stadium and local levels. such a process would establish national standards for terms, data, measurement and reporting and for the use of producer funds which the in-state stakeholders must adhere to receive the framework that retains stadium the local planning are also providing greater funding and efficiency through national standards and a workable approach to integrating the aspects of the country nal takeover and the local recovering and recycling program. i hope these thoughts from ameripen over perspective on any

national packaging framework or program that might be considered. i very much a appreciate the opportunity to appear today and i would welcome any questions you may have. thank you. >> again we welcome each of you. thanks for your work and sharing your thoughts and colleagues. we will provide about five minutes of questioning i would say with respect to a fee setting. it's an important produce responsibility policy.

it may have a higher fee than the recyclable. question would you expand all this fee setting process can work as a tool and extended producer responsibility of the policies to support both the downstream and upstream changes. when we talk about this fee setting, the term that is being used often today is called eco- modulation. i don't know if it is a real word. what it essentially is about is a modulation around criteria for the packaging. if we want to improve the recycling system, we need to sue

standardizing the design of the materials to match the technology or infrastructure. by doing that we be on the qualy material. they will have a higher value to have longer-term contracts and so to incentivize the design for that you can create a fee modulation system where you incentivize producers to design for the system or design above that the content. they are no longer if they degrade the quality feedstock they are paying to deg i additionally, it can create the need for transparency in the system which can help avoid some of the concerns around the toxic

chemicals into recycling and there is better transparency. there is the material recycling facility that would have the ability to opt out of those materials and it will give us the opportunity to have better visibility upon reducing thooble future. as of the modulation is the way to sort of take a tool that could be just for financing recycling and use it for a bit >> thank you. doctor johnson, would you please share with us any viewsve regar? >> i would say that i would simply support as a key tenet od what we have seen in some of the schemes a pollution prevention hierarchy, so the worst being plastic going

energy down cycling to recycling to reuse, refill and the fees are based on the end-of-life product to the hierarchy. the system for companies like who make the products more recyclable to improve the content and just have continuous improvement in the system. a number of schemes don't have that, but we would certainly promote having that kind of system in epr. senator o-uppercase-letter. >> thank you all for being here. there is a fundamental chicken and egg issue preventing us from moving on. insufficient collection infrastructure hampers the recycling effort and the low demand for the recyclable materials discourages

investment. that's why i think extended producer responsibility could be used as a potential solution which is good. is it feasible to comply with the mandate without the integration of some chemical recycling? where does the recycling fit into this because obviously it is a major part of the materials produced. >> it's a great question. while ameripen doesn't have the position on the chemical recycling, we will say it is a tool inlbox and we wouldn't want any program at this level to move forward that would take a tool that increase packaging recycling and recovery that would include emerging technologies for the mechanical and as while we welle believe that would include the new technologies to support

advanced or chemical recycling. >> i support the fact that it's an important tool especially for the hard to recycle plastics.

and you would hope over time as

epr works, you get out of those hard to recycle plastics and put more into the recycling loop and may be there is less of a need for that kind of tool. but it is certainly important in my opinion in an interim period. >> do you have an opinion you mentioned here? >> overall i think we are cautious about chemical recycling today as it has not quite proven. however, i don't think we need to define how. i think we define outcomes in the process. we don't want to close off innovation but that any technology that is used to process and provide a secondary market has to be certain environmental and economic bars. if we set a system up to be about outcomes and in proving the benefits of system, then we don't have to put up barriers

around what it would i think the chairman and i have and i can speak for him briefly is we can't even get our small re through congress. so how in the world are we going to be able to do something on a federal level and a scale in which we are talking about which would be beneficial fundamentally to everybody in the country and all the states would be able comply. the two downsides i mentioned that were possible in terms of cost of product. with an inability to access cycling now and in the future.

a lot of things are moving forward that congress can help with and the acts we heard of today and the recycling and accountability act underan they are currently facing challenges as well. another thing that could be helpful and i don't think it is impossible to do is get some uniformity if you will around the definitions. i would agree with of the discussion about the end goal and endgame but if we are operating from a different generational standard that is something to think about and one thing i would highlight that i do see an opportunity for the federal government to support is that emergence of the market development so we want markets for these materials, producers one got to get to the recycled content er self-imposed or mandate states put forth.

i think you said four states already put in -- >> full in place. >> morgan, colorado, california. >> and what reay oersou >> illinois and the groundwork law what we need. >> argues in conflict with one another or similar? >> i would say generally speaking none of these are quiet like each other.on's product, ae they going to be impacted? >> there is some conflict between the state laws.

the laws that mandate and the products flow pretty freely across the orders so it would be impossible for us to comply with the law when you have that kind of labeling conflict. that is just one example. >> that is a good example of why it would be where we need to go here. it's something that sounds pretty simple and can complicate things. thank you very much. >> thank you. our colleagues here are very much involved in the national governors association and there there's an entity within the association that■g enables ideas what's working and what's not working and they have a word for

the committee that does that. i would remind us it's not just the private sector issue. the states have a dog in this fight and we welcome that. senator o-uppercase-letter the governor of west virginia when i was born and rumor has it that she has a son that might end up being governor of west virginia in the future. so we want to keep an eye of what needs to be done. i appreciate the opportunity. thank you to the witnesses for being here today. i have some concerns that relate frankly none of the witnesses addressed directly the financial burden is

come placed on that regulation. the adoption could increase grocery bills 36 to $57 per month for a family of four. this is a time of course when inflation is already impacting families across the nation, grocery prices are up 21% and of course who does this harm the most? it's our lowest ince that are the least able to handle these priceas with low income households they consume almost 20% of the prepackaged goods more than other households. we have all sorts of examples where the regulation comes in place and drives up the cost for consumers and of course that impacts the consumers all across the board. so for example, when california

passed and when you look right now, california proposition 12 as well, costs 85 cents more than california van in the midwest and if you look at for example the epa proposed tailpipe regulations that required a two thirds of all electric vehicles to be sold by 2032 to be electric vehicles they generally cost $65,000 or more than a regular engine and the low income household spends vehicle. so huge impact for low income families when you have regulations coming in place. so the overregulation can have a big impact when you talk about the basic necessities.

we have innovation that could also help with this it's the development of bio plastics the previous farmville expanded the products to include renewable chemicals and they are produced from renewable biomass allowing to be mixed with conventional materials and industrial processes of supply chains. that's why we use internationally and the usda has been slow to adopt these improvements. can you talk about the importance of innovation and provide some examples in an ofimportant innovation was happening. >> thank you for that question and there is a lot of innovation happening. bio plastics it is one example. there's others happening that we are able to incorporated with more content and what i would say is i want to try to answer both of your comment. one is the innovations happening. it's important to remember the packaging is designed for a

particular reason and purpose and i would even suggest in some instances that would be more true true with rural communities and the store and maybe once a week, once every ten days. whether it be bio plastics or other materials and packaging being produced, really it's meaningful when we have this more holistic discussion about the responsibility which then goes to the cost issue. you reference the study there's a study on both sidesf the aisle for increased cost to consumers. i would suggest consumers may have some of the cost impact and they may be able to internalize some of that cost as well even if it gets to what they are trying to do as a company. i'm sure mr. johnson can speak

further to that. but it's definitely a consideration. my members are very concerned about the potential cost increase, but i think if we can find environmental or more products if they can internalize some of that cost impact will be less quite frankly. >> can you talk a little bit about what innovation into the packaging industry? >> just to comment on the cost piece, i share your concern and eople that can't afford these kind of cost increases. i would make a couple of points. one is if we let this emerging round of state regulations happen that's going to drive the costs better than if we had the regulation. the second thing i would say and this is one of the things i'm

promoting the more we get the regulation and more time given to meet the goals, the board of the innovation can happen and you get the economies of scale and you can mitigate the cost and inconvenience to the people that buy our products and i n■gadvocate for time to meet the hurdles but there are a lot of innovations happening on the recycle ability of products and recycled content. i think that those refill the kind of innovations and i think those are the three big things that will be promoted in the epr regulation. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. thank you for always showing up. i continue to work with you.

i used to be a naval flight officer stationed in east asia and the squadron was housed at the air station. i would raise likely to found at and we go there pretty regularly. i learned a long time ago in the state. thank you for convening this hearing as we explore the role of extended producer responsibility. i think it is helpful to remind ourselves th it's just one aspect of the circular economy for plastic. the policies should work in tandem with other areas like recycling infrastructure investments. help inform the fue

decisions and policymaking's and any stregies for public private partnerships and investments to achieve the goals and as the chairman said i'm proud california who believed paved the way towards a economy for the benefit of both consumers and the environment. thanks to the collected over 491 billion bottles and cans including the ones you are recycled. a 2.6 billion pounds because of electronics and it disproportionately impactful environmental damage if not disposed of properly. 2.2 billion gallons of used oil

and 9.6 million mattresses for recycling. we are going to takeind it. it's one of the first states with extended producer responsibilities with the sp 54 and 2022. this requires producers to produce a single use plastic packaging by 25% and make 100% of the packaging recyclable or compostable 2032 and the reports estimate that the targets would result in 23 million tons less of single use plastics over the next ten years. let's try to envision what 23 million tons is. the golden gate bridge, 23 golden gate bridges is what we are talking about or 150,000

blue whales. doctor johnson, how can congress must advance the responsibility policies while also partaking in the abilities to act? >> i do think there is an important level for states. what we would like to see as product labeling products, characteristics because our products flow freely across the state borders so that we don't have conflicts of law and we can capture good economies of■ scal. those are two of the most important things that we need from a federal level but states obviously should have a lot< of

capabilities to design these systems to meet the states particular needs. record here, i think we in congress can learn and try to broaden that across the country while not preempting the states that can and want to be even more aggressive. it's an important relationship to have. my time remaining i want to touch on one other topic. contaw which established what californians know as the redemption, the crv. this fee is referred to for consumers when they recycle their bottles and cans or give to a curbside operator or nonprofit recycler. thanks to the bottle bill, it iy

at 70%. it's pretty successful. what other incorporated in the extended producer responsibility policies? >> thank you for the question and for your leadership. i think it's important that learn and what creates sustainable secondary markets know that we are outpacing the ability to produce all the things we depend on and we need to figure out how to get them back so there's a lot of that wd into a system that could extend beyond single products. you could learn to create and enact incentives for the community. there's design standards across

a host of categories. we are primarily talking about the solid waste and single use materials, but there electronic. there's a lot of other industries that are going to learn from what is happening in the states and we should be considering those as we look at what kind of mechanisms could be successful in helping us to recover those unneeded resources in one place and prode them for other industries. >> thank you very much and just reminds a third of the three rs. reduce, reuse and then recycle. back to you. >> can't get away from that. you mentioned the golden gate bridge. there is also a golden gate park. when we were not deployed overseas i got to go to the very

first birthday at golden gate park and the speaker that day was ralph nader and had the best-selling books. it had a way of going around and it would change directions tnyoe opposite direction. the other thing we found out is when we turn on the heater, carbon monoxide would come out of the heaterd out that my car was it was hard to get dates in the winter. i ma it to pensacola florida and sold it for a dollar and bought myself a volkswagen which

up with 200,000 miles on it but that would have started and i want to say thank you for your leadership in california and ve much for your leadership here. all of us served in a number of committees with about three or four others and other committees are meeting right now. try to pop in at the extant that accidentthat they can but until, we will continue to ask questions. my+ next doctor johnson, but several countries including canada and france i established the producer responsibility laws and then recently i think we had some hereay, colorado, maine, california and oregon have passed their own law for consumer packaging and we heard both pros and cons to these

laws. one concern we heard from stakeholders is about the challenges here today and the state-by-state approach to recycling policies such as different labeling requirements and the national governors associatiohas an entity that is in place to share good ideas with one another and find out what works to do more of that. question called centers for■j bt practices and as great organizations still react, we try to work with them in ways that are helpful to the state and local governments. would you please share some of your experiences working with national producer responsibility laws and some of the challenges

faced complying with laws and how might they address some of the challenges there's good models of the legislation out ee youshared that in louisiana exae earlier where they've been able to achieve higher recovery rates and a very high access to recycling for the population in british columbia. some of the challenges that we've had evolve more around transparency fees.

the one thing that i would like to see more of in the extended producer responsibility ore of a push on reuse and refill. that is probably one of the best approaches to minimizing environmental impact. i would like to share an example at 12 years ago we launched a concentrate that you could put in the next bottle to fill it with water so you could reuse this model 100 times if you wanted. that is best environmental footprint for this kind of product but it doesn't sell very well. most consumers want to go through the inconvenience of putting a concentrate into the bottle. it comes back to it's very hard

for an individual company to make progress with of these kinds of innovations but if we have things in the regulations that could help incentivize these kind of things and bring scale, if they have 30% of the options, the many companies have options from their branded we had education programs, if we have subsidies, that propelled this kind of innovation. france put in their regulation a minimum amount of retail space devoted to both of these options.united kingdom has given subsidies for retail stations and there's over 700 stations

those kind of things work and i would like to see that kind of added to a regulation we could have federally here in the united states. >> some materials have more viable markets for repurchasing than others. it's recycled at almost 70% and put back into products for resale. the plastic products do not have the same recovery rate or value. question i think for you and doctor johnson as well. how could extended producer responsibility policies establish new markets for recycled materials?

>> every single one of the materials that we depend on today whether it's paper, glass or plastic comes from a resource so we should be making our best efforts to make sure all of the materials are getting a recycled recycledand they all end up in e so when we are talking about an extended producer responsibility scheme at the federal level, we need to be considering all of those materials at once and how we can create the design standards and of the modulation to enhance and improve the materials for the recycling and infrastructure and technology needed to efficiently recycle em so we have high-value materials on the back and for all of that. so, maybe the improvement would be because we have a much lower starting point for other materials, but that improvement is still needed because paper,

the materials that absorb the most of the contaminants it because they are on the lower end of the time you can recl them, those contaminants have a bigger impact on the strength when they are being recycled. so i think there's mutual benefits that can happen across for the market. i would say a key tenet of the extended producer responsibility regulation and key responsibility of the producer organization is to help create those end-of-life markets. if you look at the british columbia example, today, over 99% of what they collect goes into man and market and that's been improved over time. again i think the eco- modulation is important as well

to create a plastic pollution hierarchy and incentive system to move products from landfill or waste and energy up to higher value and more circular markets. to me, that is a helpful and important principle and extended producer regulation. >> let me follow up how important are the viable markets for companies like yours trying to use more recycled content in the packaging materials? >> can you repeat that? >> how important it is extremely important and what regulation does this creates scale and

supply of postconsumer recycled plastic which is important to us with our own internal goals. it's important for us to see that even today some of the hard to recycle things get into even downs like old markets, so to me it is a critical part of regulation. >> i think that is my question. i want to mention a couple of things if i can. senator o-uppercase-letter's bill has been provided for the leadership and made significant pieces of legislation dealing with recycling. we talked about it many times in the roo we've actually made it past unanimously with support in■; te senate and an effort to try to

find legislation with what's going on in the house and we stumbled over something that call a hold, and a member of the senate were holding some caseste has concerns about. one of our colleagues if you saw has lifted his hold on the two recycling bills the moved earlier here even today a lot ofp and the great staff work on that and we appreciate very much the decision, the staff is going to be working with the floor. i don't know how you work with folks for the republican andthe democratic leadership to see if

we can work on these as soon as possible. if we work with the house to get them to president biden's task. we don't always have good news, but that's good news and we will have been grateful for what he . before we wrap it up, one of the things i like to do, i am always looking for how we build consensus here because political lines, how we build consensus between the house and senate and with states and governors and other levels of government. i'me3 going to ask in closing if you would maybe close in terms of taking us closer to consensus

on relating to what we've been talking about today. it could be something else related to what we are talking about today. but we might ask triggered a response. do you have the chance to give an opening statement with some wisdom and i would ask if you would lead us off. >> thank you, senator. three quick thoughts. one is consensus is critical and we need people at the table and i'm not suggesting people in the room today are not at the table but one thing that ameripen has discovered over the last four years is we will only solve these if all of the stakeholders sit down together and that is what the consensus is, so encourage those that are not engaged in this issue to follow hearings like this and understand the complexity of it

and move forwa. do want to mention that while we have i think 40 countries around the world that have the epr waste, many of the programs are set anr different packaging. these programs are continuing to evil, so as we pointed towards othe cries and what they are doing i think we need to be mindful of that and we need a unique united states solution for the way things are set up. my next comment is data. we need that desperately and it is a role for the federal government to help with that as we look to findindustry interesd environmental interest and estate and trust we lack the data that is desperately needed and we need to work more on

that. consensus is important for far far be itfor me to suggest whatt build given the emerging state regulations help prevent overregulation and i think that should be important for everybody. i would also say that this is an important and emerging issue i know you talked about micro plastics last week that i think is becoming very important human health issue that needs to be solved and i think if there is anything with the urgency around it, it's of that. but i appreciate the opportunity

to share my views. >> thank you for the opportunity once again. when you talk about consensus it about the process happening in parallel around the treaty. where it is the goal for all of those member states to come together and find a common path forward against a shared threat and that is hard to do in a decisive world as it can be to find in the u.s., but an interesting thing has emerged in the negotiations the end of the momentum in the u.s. that where we have common ground, more players than ever before is on an extended responsibility. we may have different reasons but ultimately we need a better more harmonized standards and a better collection and processing and better secondary materials. that is fairly common and why

you see more excitement and sector. they want that more than anything. i want to add one thing i didn't get a chance to comment -- >> on what? >> the cost to the consumer. the cost is already in the form of plastic waste today and the municipalities that are currently dealing with that so we need to make sure we consider where they are falling as we do the full balance sheet. mayors in the midwest part of the mississippi river town initiative talk about cost as one of the challenges they and how it's coming down to the local taxpayers. both will be on the hill hill tomorrow to talk about their support and they've done some studies that have shown that there are benefits to it. coming back in the form of 600 to $300 ar pay. i think there is an opportunity to find that commond and

where there could be those benefits to the distances and benefits and a benefits those that really needed, so thank you again for the opportunity. >> we thank you all and i hope that your work provides you as much satisfaction as our work provides for us. people who followed the news and those in washington, the we can't stand working with one another and that couldn't be further from the truth with respect to the issues before this committee. we have a lot of mutualord and things like the reduction act that we were involved in and helped write and to the bipartisan infrastructure bill that has huge climate provisions, some of which we talked a little bit about here today. another great leader, a statue f

him a couple miles from where we are gathered here today, former president abraham lincoln. one of my favorite lincoln quotes is with response to the question what is the role of government. what is the role of government. lincoln used to say it is to do for the people what themselves. .. with the market forces were that works. the only planus is no plan b. you gotta take care of this plan if we care about her grandchildren and great-grandchildren fky enough to have those who want to make sure they have a wonderful place to inherit and raise their

own families. but we appreciate it can be a complex topic. but we can find you. i want to send touch with you in our committee. we reach some of the best thoughtful policies and the advance these and other goals. i want to say a special thanks to senator for her staff, to the majority staff of our colleagues who participate in helping to select you to be our witnesses and provide some of the questions that have been asked here today.

i get to do a little housekeeping to close out our hearing. my favorite part of the hearing. i went to ask unanimous consent to submit for the record a variety of materials that include letters from stakeholders and other materials that relate to today's hearing. when asked unanimous consensus on the center to object i can pretty much run the show. [laughter] without objection senators are going to be allowed to submit questions for the record to the close of the business on wednesday that is march 20 we will compile those questions. we will send them to our witnesses and ask all of you to respond if you could bite wednesday april 3. in a place where sometimes we do not have great news every day the news about lifting the hold on the recycling bill is a wonderful piece of news.

i think folks across the country are probably encouraged by your testimony and what you have presented to us. the questions that are members asked. while you've been testifying half, we have just had a really impressive group of young people coming into the hearing on seats for folks who might be watching this on c-span or television the number of people can sit in the hearing room we have seats for maybe 50, 60, 70 peop. we've had probably 100 or more young people look like maybe high school, maybe they could have gone to any hearing they could have gone to any hearing and the house in session

for the senate over in the capitol but they came here. they came here by the dozens. and they came here because they know this is important. this is important for them in their lives and the families they will raise some day. we do not want to let them down. we do not want to let them down i would lik committee were not letting them down with your help we will continue to do that. with that this hearing is a raft thank you very ch. adjourned. [inaudible