children morally, socially and economically. he's interviewed by journalist and author anya -- watch "after words" tonight at 8 eastern on c-span. ♪ >> republican presidential hopefuls including asa hutchinson, mike pence, vivek ramaswamy and senator tim scott will speak at the iowa faith and freedom coalition. live coverage saturday starts at 6:30 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span now, our free mobile video app, or online at c-span.org. ♪ >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we're funded by these television companies and more, including comcast. >> are you thinking this is just a community center? no, it's way more than that. >> comcast is partnering with a thousand community centers to create wi-fi-enabled -- so students from low income families can get the tools they

need to be ready for anything. comcast supports c-span a a public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. ♪ >> julie su, president biden's labor secretary nominee, testified at her confirmation hearing before the senate health, education, labor and pensions committee. she faced questions on her panhandling of pandemic public assistance as a state government official. she's been acting labor secretary since the less aring ig nation of march i the walsh in march. [inaudible conversations]

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>> -- nomination of julie su to be the secretary of the united states department of labor, and i welcome her this morning. and let me get directly to the point. ita strongly support ms. su's nomination. she has been an excellent deputy secretary of labor for the last two years, and and i believe she will make an excellent secretary of labor into the future. and i hope very much that she will be confirmed by the senate, and we need her in her job as soon as possible. and let us be honest as we gather this morning. the debate over ms. su really has nothing to dor with her qualifications. no one can tell us with a

straight face that ms. su is unqualified for this position. in fact, she is extremely well e qualified.l this debate really has everything to do with the fact that julie su is a champion of the working class of this countryly who will stand up against theev forces of corporae greed. that's really what that this debate is about. now, let's be very clear, for the last 50 years middle class and working class of this country have been struggling. while we have more income in wealth inequalitied today than we have ever had, over 60% or our people are living paycheck to pay connect, and millions are working for star the vegas wages. julie su should be confirmed as our secretary of labor because she has spent her life fighting for those working families, and

they need her now. what this nomination is about is really notpe come complainted. complicated. today, as we speak, large multi-national corporations are spending millions of dollars on ads,s, sometimes ugly ads in various parts of this country trying to defeat her nomination. they know what i know, and that is that she is prepared to take onri powerful special interests and stand up to the needs of those working people who desperately need defending today. and while many corporate interests -- not all, but many -- oppose her nomination, she is supported by every major labor organization in this country representing over 20 million workers including the a afl-cio, the united mine workers of america, the teamsters and the seiu.

all strongly support ms. su's confirmation. .. to do. b we need a labor secretary who will work each and every day to make it easier, not harder, for workers to exercise their constitutional right to join unions and collectively bargain for better wages, benefits, and working conditions. we need a labor secretary who understands that we must end the international embarrassment of the united states being the only country on earth that does not guarantee paid family and medical leave or paid sick days, something of this committee will also address.

this is america, when your child or spouse get sick, you should not be fired from your job because you are taking care of them. julie su understand that. we need a labor secretary, women in this country are earning just $0.84 on the dollar compared to men and queen equal pay for equal work. the labor secretary believes young people in this country should have access to apprenticeship programs which give them the skills they need for good paying jobs rebuilding america, something this committee will also address. the labor secretary who understands that employees in america who are working 50 or 60 hours a week should not continue to be cheated out of the overtime pay they have earned and are entitled to. we need a labor secretary who will and force child labor laws

on the books and expose the exploitation of underage workers by unscrupulous employers. we need a labor secretary who understands that it is acceptable that half of older americans have no retirement savings and we need to expand, not cut pensions in this country. i believe that julie su will be that labor secretary. as i think we know two years ago, the senate voted to confirm julie su's nomination to be deputy secretary of labor by a vote of 50 to 47. every democrat in the senate voted for her nomination. every republican in the senate voted against her nomination. the only thing that has changed since that vote is that julie su has done an outstanding job as deputy secretary of labor. working with marty walsh who

strongly supports her confirmation, julie su has worked to expand apprenticeships to 30,000 americans so they can get the high-quality manufacturing and construction jobs that are desperately needed to rebuild this country. i understand if my republican colleagues have expressed concerns about the 11% unemployment insurance fraud rate that occurred in california during the height of the pandemic when julie su was california's secretary of labor. but here is what my colleagues conveniently ignore. during the same period, the an appointment insurance rate was 15. 4% in tennessee, 15. 3% in arizona, 14.3% in south carolina, 14% in massachusetts. those days several public and governors and labor secretary's and all those states experience higher unemployment insurance fraud rate in california.

the unemployment insurance fraud rate was 27% in kansas, 23% rhode island, 60% in new york. in vermont it was pretty high as well. all substantially higher than california. the reality is virtually every state faces major challenges with respect to fraud in the initial him -- unemployment insurance program. in the midst of a horrific pandemic when donald trump was in office and mitch mcconnell led the senate, millions of americans were rapidly losing their jobs. we remember those days, through no fault of their own, republicans and democrats came together and passed the cares act by a vote of 90620. every member was in the senate at that time voted for it. republicans and democrats made a conscious decision the top priority in 2020 was to get

unemployment benefits out as quickly as possible to millions of americans who needed it. and to relax regulations because we are dealing with an unprecedented public health emergency and that is what we did in the cares act that donald trump signed into law. the truth is the trump administration failed to provide adequate guidance and resources on how to administer these emergency unemployment benefits and fraud went up across the country. that was not something that julie su did. that is what every republican in every democrat who was present at the time voted for in the senate and donald trump signed into law and the department of labor administered. further, under julie su's leadership, california was the first state to implement safeguards to combat fraud in the emergency assistance program. these safeguards were later promoted by the trump administration, appropriately

so, and implement it nationwide. those are the facts and they are not in dispute. julie su has the experience, qualifications, the passion, and the ability to be an outstanding secretary of labor. i'm proud to support her nomination and pleased to welcome her to our committee this morning. senator cassidy is recognized. >> so nice to see you. i disagree with senator sanders. as much as i think about julie su it as pleasantly as i regard you i will disagree and say with a straight face that i do not think you should be secretary of labor. the committee's priority should be, put differently to use senator sanders's words, we need a labor secretary who is fair and unbiased when enforcing the nation's labor laws. should be a leader who is responsible, experienced and skilled, not an actress.

with the demo traded record of competence as an administrator and demonstrated record of successfully concluding labor negotiations. but there are, as senator sanders points out, serious concerns about julie su's record. as secretary of california labor and workforce developed agency, julie su was chief enforcer of ab 5, controversial law that dismantled the gig economy like uber, door-de-ash to work as independent contractors. senator sanders suggested all workers would be united in supporting this nomination. those independent contractors opposed a b5. ab 5. julie su expressed herself as merely being an enforcer of a law passed down by others but i've spoken to people in california who said julie su was the cheerleader before the law. independent contractors, freelancers make their own hours and choose the work they wish to do. they are shielded from

unionization that would take that flex ability away. this is made illuminating freelance top priority for large labor unions, those endorsing this nomination who want more workers paying forced union dues. it's important to note evening california ab 5 is unpopular. the governor and state legislature had to pass 100 exemptions after it was implement it. the statutory exemptions are longer than the text of ab 5 itself. 59% of californians voted to erode the law. in 2019 she described employers who oppose california's over reaching law as not understanding the economy that, quote, we want in california. as acting deputy secretary of labor, julie su has overseen the biden had been a straight and push to eliminate independent contracting via federal executive rulemaking

the detriment of workers. a new regulation would strip 21 million individuals of their ability to the independent contractors enjoying the flexibility this provides. are rejected in california is not a policy that should be spread across the nation. i wish to hear julie su's position on the part of labor's effort to uproot the franchise model. she said privately she will not pursue this but the franchise model employs 8 million americans. she made public comment in support of a joint employer rule which would impact the 800,000 franchises operating in our communities. saddling them with liability for thousands of franchise owners that operate as small businesses would be a shrewd way to destroy the system of franchise use. a model which is empowered under presented groups in the business community like women and people of color, giving

them the opportunity to live the american dream becoming successful small business owners creating jobs and lifting other workers out of poverty. no one is surprised the joint employer rule is a major priority for labor unions. it is easier to pressure one company to unionize to increase union dues than to pressure thousands of independent businesses. president biden promises the most prounion administration in history. at her nomination announcement julie su responded, quote, sign me up for that. i want to help. the priority should not be whatever makes it easier to coercively unionize workers while understanding the business model. another republican, i don't expect to agree with the political positions of a biden nominee but we should expect the heads of our federal government are not driven by activism to carry out an agenda for a favored political group but leaders who will carry out

the duties of the office and give everyone a fair shake. it's also a response ability of the secretary to be a good administrator. and senator sanders points out, julie su oversaw the development partners, the edd. these program loss, $30 billion in fraud by waving fact checking requirements represented by the department of labor guidance. the california state auditor reported despite repeated warnings, they did not bolster its fraud detection efforts until a month into the pandemic and suspended critical safeguard. under julie su, fraud in california was rampant. wrapper - a rapper was arrested and pled guilty and ordered to

pay 705,000 after posting a music video bragging about how easy it was to defraud the edd program. the lyrics include, quote, i'd done got rich off of edd. ain't hit no more lips because of edd. just last night i was selling peas ♪♪ and i just woke up to 300 g's. for the record, my interpretation is $300,000, but it was -- he was ordered to pay 700 gs through restitution. the rapper was not held accountable because of julie su's oversight but because he publicly admitted to his crime in a rap video. i ask unanimous consent to insert a transcript of this music video entitled edd into the record. >> we will put it into record. >> business management does not inspire confidence that julie su can run a multimillion dollar organization.

by the way, former labor secretary marty walsh develop trust for the business community as well as labor unions. setting politics aside, marty walsh has experience in negotiation in managing organizations. that experience is important. one hundred 50 labor contracts expiring this year, the potential of replacing them with someone with a history of bias at no experience handling labor disputes should be concerning to all. i look forward to hearing from julie su as she addresses the concerns of this committee. >> i would like to welcome our nominee, julie su, currently the acting secretary for the part of labor in the last two years served as deputy secretary to marty walsh. i thank her for being here with us and turn it over to senator padilla from california to introduce her. >> thank you, mr. chairman breaking number

cassidy for allowing me to introduce acting secretary of labor julie su. julie su is a proud californian and as you will hear, a champion for workers everywhere. julie is a tireless advocate, was a tireless advocate for workers in california for years, so much so that two months after i joined the senate in early 2021, i had the honor of introducing her to this committee when president biden nominated her to serve as deputy secretary of labor. in the time since her first confirmation she has proven to be an effective deputy secretary of labor. now acting secretary helping this administration add 12.5 million jobs to the american economy. since president biden's first day in office that's more job gains than any previous

president in a four year term and that's no exaggeration. during that time julie has been a relentless defender of the rights and dignity of workers, job creation and labor protection are not mutually exclusive but they go hand in hand with strong response. economies. her service and track record comes as no surprise once you understand where she has come from blue she's proud daughter of immigrants and native of california and she knows the sacrifice many working families face to make ends need. her parents worked hard for decades in minimum-wage jobs before establishing and growing their own small business. they've seen both sides of our paycheck. they instilled in julia strong work ethic that led her to take on tough fights for workers as a labor lawyer, labor secretary

for the state of california and deputy secretary for the us department of labor. during her time as secretary of labor in california, the it's a crime campaign so employers as well as low-wage workers better understood their rights and responsibilities. as secretary of the workforce develop and agency for the then fifth-largest economy in the world, the fourth-largest economy in the world, she managed seven major department, boards, and panels to conduct quality jobs, provide workforce training and strengthen the state's economy. did i mention california has the fourth-largest economy in the world? on a personal note it was a privilege to work alongside julie when she led the campaign in california to help low-wage workers understand their rights

and feel protected about when speaking up about labor abuse, that's quickly important. and i know many of you have expressed concern about recent reports of child labor violations in america particularly migrant children being exploited in the workplace. several senators including many republican senators express their dismay on hi sge k calling on the federal government to do its part i'm cracking down on these labor violations and holding people accountable. if we are sincere about our dismay about the child labor violations then you need to agree that we need julie su confirmed as soon as possible. her experience and qualifications are unmatched. i'm confident her service will

fundamentally strengthen the american workforce in the years ahead confirming acting secretary julie su to serve as chief defender of workers and workers rights in the biggest economy in the world will send a strong and important message that in america workers are valued, workers come first. as undersecretary walsh put it, julie is a lifelong champion of america's workers. if confirmed as the first asian-american to serve as secretary and president biden's cabinet millions of americans will see themselves represented in the highest levels of the government and will take pride in her story as a daughter of working-class immigrants. julie is the pioneering labor champion workers deserve to lead the department of labor now. i'm thankful that president biden has chosen to nominate her for this position. i urge you to join me in supporting her nomination.

thank you, mr. chair. >> thank you. julie su, the floor is yours. >> chairman sanders, ranking member cassidy, members of the committee, i am honored to appear before you today. i have enjoyed our discussions prior to this hearing about the department of labor and its role in meeting the critical challenges of our time. i'm grateful to have my daughter, a college senior who is graduating from yale next month, with me today. as a political science major, she, like our, are aware of how amazing it is for her to be here not just for me, but to see democracy in action up close with my other daughter is in her sophomore year at amherst college, where she is

on the basketball team and that she is taking in economics midterm today. we thought it was better for her to stay on campus. my parents, sister, and brother in law are all up early and watching from california. i want to start by thanking president biden for this incredible opportunity, and senator padilla, for the very warm introduction. as deputy secretary of labor, i have worked hand in hand with marty walsh to deliver on the president's promise of an economy built from the bottom up in the middle out. the results speak for themselves. the us economy has added a record 12.6 million jobs. the lowest unemployment rate, less than 4% for more than a year which is the lowest and 50 years while labor force

participation has returned to pre-pandemic levels. when he announced my nomination for us secretary of labor the president called me the american dream. my parents believed in it, i benefited from it and want to do my part to make sure it is a reality for workers across the nation. the dream for my family began with my mom's 30 day voyage on a cargo ship to the united states because she couldn't afford a passenger ticket. both my parents came to america for opportunities and found it. in utah where they studied, in madison, wisconsin, where my sister and i were born. in southern california where they settled and built a life. to get through school my parents worked minimum-wage jobs. when i was 6 years old, my mom got a job for los angeles county as an officer. this job gave our family two crucial things, financial security and health insurance.

it also afforded my mother a pension which guarantees my mother and father's financial security into their old age. this level of economic security was impossible for them to imagine as they worked long hours and came home every night with the same first question for my sister and me, did you finish your homework yet? that a transformative power of a good union job, something i can speak to personally. when i was growing up, my family saw opportunity in the form of small business. they owned a dry cleaning a laundromat business and a franchise pizza restaurant. for years my dad had his day job and a pizza shop returning home after 10 p.m. pm with pizza for my sister and me to take the next day. small business owners are the engines of our economy.

i have watched it and i saw it every day. i translated for my parents a common experience in immigrant families. after college i went to law school and became the first lawyer in my family. my experience at home shook my commitment to making the law understandable and meaningful to individuals and communities too often left out of the economy. after law school i spent two decades representing workers. what i learned is too many people still work full-time year-round and live in poverty. too many denied a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. i learned working people when given a chance to organize, to be heard, not only make things better for themselves but also help to bring the american dream within reach to those around them. if confirmed i will bring these lessons and experience to my role as we continue to rebuild the economy. i will work to make sure hard

work pays off, workers and small businesses just like it did for my family. prior to coming to the department of labor i served the people of california for decades. i saw firsthand the government has a meaningful role to play in providing support to the majority of employers who play by the rules. one of these rules is investment in workers programs, to provide training to meet employers needs for skilled workers and give more workers access to quality jobs. over the last two years secretary walsh and i worked side-by-side to expand apprenticeship in internet industries and opportunities for jobs like building roads and bridges, manufacturing semiconductors, and so much more. many of these jobs do not require a four year degree. we created a national strategy and expanded investment in rural communities, tribal

communities and mental health along with other initiatives to ensure our nation's workers are ready to meet the needs of employers in jobs across america. i have been a leader dedicated to finding and expanding the vast areas of common ground between employers and employees. my job as deputy secondary meant my primary focus was on internal operations of the department, secretary walsh's leadership style was to involve me as a true partner. i was with him for the 20 our negotiation between rail employers and rail unions that took place in our office and i have traveled from new orleans to detroit from indianapolis to nashville, san juan to houston, where i have seen firsthand the creativity of america's workers and small businesses. secretary walsh and i expanded our compliance assistance for employers and employees providing real-time information

through minor safety and health apps to keep miners safe, helping employers work with employees with disabilities with job accommodations in place and supporting employers to adopt workplace health and safety programs including how to find and fix hazards. i believe the department of labor should make it as easy as possible for employers to keep workers safe on the job. if confirmed you can count on me to listen to employers views about how best to do that. so all of this brings me to today. president biden asked me to finish the job secretary walsh and i started. if confirmed as secretary of labor, i will work to preserve and expand the american dream for all americans and look forward to working with all of you in partnership on this shared endeavor. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much.

as the son of an immigrant who came to this country without nickel in his pocket i appreciate what you have said. the story of millions of americans. i want you to continue your opening statement in terms of giving us your sense of what your major accomplishments have been, what you have done in the last several years in the department of labor and what your vision is. what do you want to do? what problems do you see out there and what do you want to accomplish as secretary of labor? >> thank you so much for the meeting that we had. i know we talked about how we need a secretary of labor who will deliver in this moment and i enjoyed our conversation. and thank you for that question. you laid out clearly what a historic economic recovery this

has been. the president said himself all the time, this is what it looks like to build an economy from the bottom up in the middle out. i have been a part of a had been a straight and for two years, proud to see what good, thoughtful policy and implantation looks like. in partnership with congress, our economy continues to define expectations. 12.6 million jobs represents the mom getting back to work after the disruption of covid. it presents a veteran coming back from military service and getting a seamless transition into civilian life. one woman i met is now laying pipes 30 feet underground, doing a job that she never imagined for herself. when she comes home at the end of the day her hands are dirty but her children are proud of her.

i think 12.6 million jobs is 12. 6 million stories like that. >> you touched on it in your remarks, something this commit i hope will deal with in a bipartisan way. you mention there were in so many words millions of young people who don't necessarily want to go to college or are prepared to get their hands dirty and are in good wages doing some of these important works that need to be done to rebuild america. talk a little bit about your vision of stronger apprenticeship programs for our country. >> there is so much we can do they are. and we have been doing it over the past few years at the department of labor. we have expanded apprenticeships across the country. we have in the last two years over 4,600 new apprenticeship programs are presented 11,000 or so employers. ..in the last two years, over 4600 apprenticeship programs representing 11,000 or so employers. these are opportunities to make

sure not only that job seekers and in particular young people get the high quali >> right now. rebuilding roads and bridges and issuing fraud internet accessibility -- broad internet accessibility, making sure that every family that turns on the faucet gets clean drinking water, building coast to coast electric charging stations. all of this m this work needs workers, and employers have been saying that what are we going to do to make sure we have the workers that we need and apprenticeship programs are a big part of that answer. and my team has heard me say this at the department of labor many times, we can build physical roads and bridges, we also have to build the roads and bridges that connect people to -- >> what i'm hear prosecution there you, secretary, you're prepared to work with this committee to the greatly expand apprenticeship programs in this country. child labor is an issue of great concern. you have some experience in that

issue? tell us what you would like to accomplish to the make sure that kids in this country are not exploited by unscrupulous employers. >> thank you very much for that question too, chairman sanders. as we have seen, there's been an increase in attention to the truly horrific examples of child labor that we've seen of late. to be clear, we're not talking about a young person when who's getting their first summer job at the local retail store working thehe cash register whee they're learning how to show up on time and work with customers. in the case, the most recent case that the department of labor found, it was over 100 children as young as 13 working in meat packing facilities on the night shift doing cleaning work. i think we can all agree that

that is exploitive child labor that we do not want to see, and the department of labor is not only continuing to enforce the law, we're also leading an interagency task force across the federal government to the make sure that we are exchanging information as needed and bringing all of our resources to bear, and i look forward to working with this committee and congress on, if asked. >> okay. thank you very much. senator cassidy. >>ed thank you, ms. su. let me first express add hi ration for your incredible personal story, and all of us are one or two generations from a story like that, and yours is more immediate. let me, first, express that. speaking about policy issues though the, a.b. 5, controversial in many quarters in california, unpopular. you supported and helped to implement it. in 2019 you described that you, that those who do not want to comply with the overreaching law as not understanding the economy that, quote,, we want in california. and the wear want is kind of a royal we. and it's important to note that

the legislature hadng to go back and pass almost a hundred exemptions. so i say that because i think one thing that concerns us, would you commit to not trying to force an a a.b. 5 type regulation upon the rest of the country that which was done in? >> thank you for the question, senator. the short answer to your question is, yes. the context to your question is that the a. b.c. test in california was first adopted by unanimous california supreme court decision that was written byn republican-appointed chief justice. >> isn't it fair to say that this, the a.b. 5 greatly expanded that decision and covered workers that were not necessarily covered by that decision,ic but went far beyond? >> following that decision, the california legislature did pass a.b. 5 that codified the test. to be extremely clear, i was not part of thede legislature, i've never beenn a legislator. i have tremendous respect for what you all do. i have not done that job.

and so the abc test was codified in california it's not the only state that has it. but whenn the department of labr issued our rule on independent contractor versus employee classification, we explicitly did not include the abc test in our rule are. so that is why i answered yes to your question. only congress can adopt the abc, i cannot -- >> other things that could be done through rule that gets at the same point even if it does not include the abc. so is that an equal kind of commitment not to attempt to do through rule that which to otherwise has the same sort of effect? >> i wouldit commit with absolue certain i and commitment that i will always have full faith andty -- fidelity to federal law. >> now, that's different, because a i've learned give me a start attorney, and they can find all kinds of interpretations of federal law are. let me move on because i've got limited time.

when we met, you said you would not pursue changes to the joint employer regulations, if confirmed. we know this is a priority for labor unions. could you again and for the record give assurances that you willt, not pursue changes to the joint employer rule as secretary the of labor? >> so ors senator, i know you mentioned the concerns about franchisees and franchisors. i mentioned that my parents had a franchiseebusiness -- >> i've got limited time. >> okay. i understand the importance of the model. there's not a clear rule on our regulatory agenda. it was not on our agenda last year -- >> and is that to say it would not be on the agenda the at a later point? >> not the agenda the in june, correct, senator.n >> thank you. there's about 150 labor contracts coming up i representg 1.6 million workers expiring this year. and one of the concerns about your nomination is that you lack direct experience negotiating and handling labor disputes.

and so can you point the any experience negotiating seasonful outcomes from labor disputes? >> thank you very much, senator, for that. so i did work very closely with then-secretary marty walsh on the negotiations that concluded on our part in september that involved the rail unions and the rail -- >> is it fair to say that it actually took congress and the president to the step in the and conclude those negotiations, those were not successful, fair? >> when we concluded our 20-hour negotiation, a tentative agreement was reached. that averted what everyone was saying would have been a national disaster. it is true that there were other parts of the process, as there always are in collective bargaining negotiations with the table. the other thing, to your question, senator, is that one of the other big issues that's looming is what's happening at the west coast ports, the ports of l.a. and long beach in my hometown involving parties and

people that i have known for some time. and i have been actively engaged in that conversation as well -- >> is it pair to say that those seem to be breaking down? there's a press release in february with optimism, but subsequently there's been other reports not quite so optimistic. so it'd be a stretch to the say it's a successful process, right? >> they're not concluded yet, senator, that is true. my role, if confirmed, would be to, when asked, help make sure that the parties stay at the table, that they are able to to grapple with some of the hard issues that they a face and that if asked to come assist, would do so. i would not give up on those negotiations at this time, senator. >> mr. chair, i ask unanimous consent the articles concerning the importants to president biden from over 300 retailers urging him to step in and

negotiate between the union and the management to disrupt the supply chain for american consumers. >> without objection. >> that, i need. senator murray. >> it's great to see you here today, acting secretary su. you'vewi been a reliable and a fair partner since your confirmation. i really look bard to continuing to work with you on implementing bipartisan policies that we passed mt. last congress like the secure 2.0 and mental health parity and the pump act which helps makee sure working moms have the civil right to a brake and a a place to pump at work. break and a place to pump at work. thank you for theth work you've done. as health committee chair, i led a group of senators commenting on the department's proposed rule regarding employee classification. and i've been extremely frustrated regarding all the hand-wringing from system of my colleagues who are misrepresenting this issue. dol explicitly states in the proposed rule thattr the fair labor standards act does not

have an abc test like the test many california. dol's been very clear it does not have the authority as you just stated to implement an abcest. that is something that only congress can do. and everyone out there fear mongering about an abc test knowsth this. in fact, several of them have put out statements acknowledging that after the proposed rule was issued in the fall on october 11th9 of last year, lyft stated this about the independent contractor rule and i quote: importantly, this rule, number one,e, does not reclassify lyft drivers as employees and, two -- employers, and, two, does not force lyft to change our business model. this approach previously applied to lyft, an app-based company, and did not result in reclassification of drivers. on december 14th of last year, the international franchise association submitted a

statement saying, and i quote, i faca applauds the proposal for s express recognition that the abc test does not apply to the fair labor standards act appropriately clarifying that the franchise relationship falls outside of its coverage. and, chairman sanders, i'd like unanimous consent to introduce both the statement from the lyft and the statement from the internationalth franchise association that i have here with me into the record. >> [inaudible] >> thank you, mr. chairman. acting secretary su, do you agree with those statements that i just read from lyft and from the ipa? >> thank you very much -- ifa? >> thank you very much, senator murray. iai mean, lyft knows their business model. i would definitely confirm your point and what i said to the ranking member, that the our rule does not include the abcest the, it cannot include the abc test because only congress can adopt that test. and our rule is meant to be in full compliance with the fair labor standards act and decades of federal law on the issue.

>> and is it true that dol has already stated it does not have the authority under the flfa to implement an abc test absent an act of congress? >> that is correct, senator. >> good. i think that's pretty straightforward, and i hope that clears it up for all of our colleagues that are here. let me turn to something else. at the end of last year, i was able to work with the bipartisan bicameral leadership to pass a huge bipartisan retirement package and secure 2.0. dol is going to oversee the implementation of a considerable number of the provisions like establishing new emergency savings accounts which i believe will help expand coverage including a retirement savings lost and found to make sure that aa workers have access to the money that they saved at past employers and many other priorities. atif confirmed, will you commito working with me and all of my colleagues across the aisle to insure that the provisions of --

areo implemented correctly and n a timely manner? >> i absolutely will, senator, and i so hastefully answered the first question, i didn't also say thank you for your leadership. also you mentioned the pump act, and as a mother who breast-fed both of my t children, i wantedo thank you for that too. yes, off course, we would, we ae going to implement it and look forward to working with you on it. the law does require the department to establish a lost and found program as you mentioned to the make sure that people, americans who have saved their entire lives for retirement are able to access those benefits when they retire. sometimes people change jobs and lose track, or maybe they forget.en and that's why a program like that is so important. the department of labor actually under our employee benefit security administration, oebsa -- or ebsa, launched a program in 2017 that was more of an individual case-by-case one, and through that work have

recovered $6 billion of retiree benefitsin for retired american. and so secure 2.0 is going to let us do that for all retirees, and we look forward to working with you the make sure that becomes real. >> well, thank you very much. and thank you for all of your work as acting deputy -- as deputy secretary. look forward to working with you in the new position. >> senator romney. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and deputy secretary su. we now know that una accompanied minor children are being trafficked in all legal labor markets across the country. your department wrote last year that violations have increased by some 70% since 2018. that communicated to the white house prior to this year? is that something a that you've communicated to them, that this is a major, major problem? >> so thank you very much, senator, for the question. as we discussed a little bit earlier today, we are seeing -- >> no, no. i have a very specific question and very limited time. did you communicate that as a department to the white house prior to this year?

>> i don't know the answer to to that question, senator. >> okay, thank you. my second question which is during your last two years at the department, the public calendar shows that you've had a standing meeting with unions on a regular basis. but until six weeks ago, you had not met with any business associations. unions on a regular basis, but not with business associations. i guess it's really hard to understand how when we think about putting two groups together getting a compromise and negotiating how we can have any confidence that you'd be seen as an unbiased, neutral arbiter, but instead would be biased inn such a way that business associations are not going to beav able to trust the department of labor. your record in california is of greater concern to me. the factin that urn your lead unemployment insurance payments in california of some $31 billion went to people who were

basically receiving money on a criminal basis, illegally receiving money from the federal government. $31 billion. that's about as much as we provided in military aide to ukraine. -- aid to the ukraine with. under your leadership in california, $31 billion was fraudulently paid out. a principle in all sorts of enterprises known as the peter principle which is people getl e promoted to a poit where their competence is no longer -- has no longer been established. in this case, your record there is so severely lacking, i don't know how in the world it makesng sense for the president to nominate you to take over this department. to work behind marty walsh is one hinge and to learn from him -- one thing and to learn from him, but you haven't had experience. negotiating a major deal between unions and management. and your leadership of an enterprise resulted in $31

billion of fraudulent payments. what am i i missing? >> so, senator, thank you on both those points. in terms of business leaders, i think that business leaders and industry associations who worked with me would paint a different story about both my openness and myus desire -- >> but you've got to meet with them for them to do so. if you haven't met with them for the first two years until six weeks ago, and you met with unions regularly, that sends a pretty clear message to those business leaders. >> so 100%, the relationships are verym important. i believe that i have them, and i'd be happy to talk to you more about them at any time. but as i said in my opening statement the, i think anybody who knows my record would say that i am someone who is communicative, transparent and really sees that there is tremendous areas of common ground between employers who are job creators andld employees who

do thehe work. >> that's as accurate as it is irrelevant to your competence to be able to lead a negotiation fraught between unions and management. help me with the $31 billion. >> thank you for that, senator. so the vast majority, over 95% of the fraud in the unemployment system not just in california, but across the nation, was in the pandemic unemployment assistancer. program, a program that was passed by congress to meet a very, very urgent need, an, unprecedented crisis that s with viewed to require an unprecedented solution. that pandemic unemployment assistance program did not have the of safeguards that regular unemployment insurance does. >> who sets those safeguards? there are guidelines in california. you chose to waive them to get that money out. $31 billion. >> so, senator -- >> doo you realize what $31 billion would have meant to thee people in ukraine had we been able to double our military support there? >> yes, yes. and that is why i -- fraud, waste and abuse of any kind is

completely unacceptable. that is why in california as soon as we knew that there was fraud happening, i shut the front door to that fraud. i made changes to the program thaty would insure that people couldn't get in the front door. but to c be very clear. thee state auditor who did many audits never said, never found that my eliminating eligibility rumors resulted in any of the -- >> my time is up. the buck stop thes at the top. -- stops at the top. you're the one that decided to waive the guardrails. $31 billion. the idea of promoting a person who's had that experience to a position of leadership of the entire department of labor makes no sense at all. thank you. >> respectfully, senator, if i may, just on the unemployment insurance fraud issue, california's unemployment insurance fraud rate which was different from the pandemic unemployment assistance was really about comparable to what it's been before. thej high rates that you're programabout were in a that did not have the safeguard

in its design. >> senatoror baldwin. >> thankt you, mr. chairman. welcome, acting labor secretary su. i want to revisit a couple of the questions you've gotten from colleagues across the aisle because i don't, i didn't hear you get an adequate opportunity yet to answer. so my colleagues have suggested that you are inexperienced in negotiating labor contracts. however, as you mentioned, youd stood shoulder to shoulder with former secretary walsh for those marathon negotiating sessions to get to a keel to the avert a national rail strike and economic shutdown. further,th your nomination is support ised by both the teamsters representing 340,000 ups workers for whom the largest private sector collective

bargaining agreement expires in july of this year and the port of l.a. whose 15,000 workers facilitated $200 billion in trade last year. the collective bargaining agreements for these workers expired in july of 2022, and your experience and relationships with the l.a. port wouldi be invaluable in insuring both sides reach a fair agreement and avoid supply chain disruptions. ms. su, is it, isn't it true that you are significantly experienced and qualified to negotiate vital labor agreements? >> thank you so much, senator, i appreciate it, our meeting and that that question. and, yes, i believe that i am. >> thank you. to hear some of my colleagues tell it, you're also writing regulations with no regard to the impact on small businesses. your track record not to the mention your life story tells a very different story.

not only are you endorse by your hometown's chamber of commerce in los angeles, but you have worked with national chamber in many industry associations throughout your tenure. you talk a little bit about some of the initiatives you've had that you've worked on as deputy secretary and how you proactively sought out and incorporated the input of the industries involved in those initiatives. >>as yes, thank you so much for that question, senator. over my tenure as deputy secretary -- again, working very closely with secretary marty walsh -- we spent a lot of time talking to employers, individual employers, industry associations especially about the work force needs. how are we going to match the needs that employers have for workers for good jobs, for better jobs and for training programs that will align the two things. and so i sat down in michigan with both employers and unions

about what it's going to look like as we build a, more electric vehicles, for example. i've sat down with employers, you know, across the country around how we can support them in expanding their apprenticeship programs or creating, you know, w not just employer training, but looking at the sector as a whole. the needs that we have today require more than just matching between employers and is job seekers, butti really building capacity in communities to do training on a sector-wide basis e. and sector, industry leaders representing employers are really key to that which is why i have met with them and why those who do know me will say that i'm very much committed to working many partnership understanding their needs and their challenges and figuring out what government can do to help meet them. >> thank you. you know that i'm also the

incoming, new chair of the labor health and human services subcommittee on appropriations which drafts annual legislation the fund the department of labor. one pointew of significant bipartisan cooperation within the labor hhs bill has been support for increasing funding for apprenticeships. over the last several years, we have seen funding increase from $90 million in the year 2016 to $285 million in last year's omnibus. i'd like to thei hear you talk a little bit more about how that funding has been used at the department of labor and how it might help employers especially in smaller communities like we have so many of in, how would it help employers find workers with thea skills that they need? >>s i so appreciate the chance o talk about this. thank you, senator.

so we are very proud of the work we've done in the apprenticeship programs. we've done it in multiple industries in terms of expanding. soap cybersecurity is one of the in-demand industrieses with high paying jobs where there's a immediate for skilled workers. in just a 6-month period, we were ableer to the expand apprenticeship programs many cybersecurity to the iewn of 16,000 individual premises wringing the total across the country to 43,000. teacher apprenticeships. in 2021 there were 2 states, now there are 17. in terms of your question about smaller communities, actually in wisconsin we have a grant, it's our women's apprenticeship in nontraditional occupations grant, a way of looking at all these good jobs we're creating should be available to the all communities. and i have seen when you give women a chance to do work they didn't imagine doing, they can change lives. and wee do have a grant just lie that with the wisconsin regional training partnership which is

going to help atk t least 950 people in a small community to join apprenticeship programs. >> senator cap toe. -- senator tuberville. >> thank you, mr. chairman. ms. su, thank you for being here today. you have and long history of activism on behalf of organized labor. i think that's all understood, but very few examples of impartiality. you've been biased. for instance, you wrote to in 2005 that businesses perpetuate economic injustice and use, abuse and exploit poor people. i have some legitimate concerns that i you won't be fair and neutral, if confirmed. i'm notan confident that your ability to act as a neutral and fair secretary won't be compromised by personal view. ms. su, your nomination is is opposed by at least 32 the business groups and coalitions, and the primary concern we're hearing is that your confirmation would be devastate dog a wide number of industries

and -- devastating to a wide number of industries and business. this much opposition concerns me. you have tried to assure critics that you would wear a different hat and be less of an activist, but i find that very hard to the believe with all this opposition. can you explain that and how you're going to overcome that? >> thank you very much, senator. i'm notiv sure if i should call you coach, i know you said -- >> sure, you can. i've been called worse. >> --- in our meeting. i did tell my daughter that she you said she could come see you to talkwo about athletics and education, both of great interest to her. so i appreciate that question. i do believe that employers and employer associations that have worked with me could help to round outo the perception of those who have not yeted had a chancece to work with me.

i also have shared and will say again my own personal background has given me a front row seat to the needs, the issues, the struggles, the challenges, the difficulties and the incredible work of small business owners who are the life blood and the job creators in all of our communities. my family now -- how to bring employees and employers together, labor unions together. we've been doing so much of that just to build with training partnerships understanding that that that if you build a training partnership where participants know at the

beginning of training that they're going to end end up with a good job at the end of it, that's a very simple way to divine a program that is going to work and is going to let you recruit people to it and want to stay in the program. >> so following up on senator romney's question, have you made an effort to meet with non-union businessesto and groups in your last two years? >> absolutely, senator, yes. >> how's that going? >> i think it's gone well. i think, again, employers are both excited about the opportunities created many in the administration -- in the administration. we've seen it's not just the historic federal investments that are going into bringing manufacturing back in the united states and all of the infrastructure investments, it's not just federal investments, there have been hundreds of billions of collars in private investments, what's been called crowding in, to meet the moment, to take advantage of what the federal government is doing. that is thell president's vision

for how we reimagine industrial policy and create an economy that works for everybody. >> let me get my last question in real quick. you've consistently worked to oppose and block efforts to stop illegal immigration. you reportedly sent a memo to staff during your time as california labor commissioner instructing them to turn away any immigrations and custom and enforcement agents who show up in labor offices without a federal warrant with. i'm concerned about the fact that our southern border's wide open, i think we all are, most ofof us, and the negative impact this is havingg on our country. could you provide that memo to the us,th to this committee? >> thank you very much, senator. >> do you rememberav it? >> i don't remember it, i don't remember it well. i don't have access to it. at this time. i do want to say, senator, again, i think that my background is really about a

commitment to the dignity of work and of the importance of making sure that workers have is the protections that they need -- >> right. >> -- when they go to work so that they get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work and that every worker comes home healthy and safe at the end of the day. i think that regardless of where you live in the united states, that is part of the basic promise of this country, and we want all workers to be able to put food on the table at end of the day and put a roof over their heads. and and that is the record of work that i have done in my career. ing. >>th thanks, mr. chairman. >> thank you. senatorth murphy. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, good to see you. i want to say thank you for coming and spending some time with me talking about issues that are important to connecticut. i may get to one of those if i have time. but, first, i really wanted to givet you an opportunity to expand a little bitten on the

answers-- bit on the that you were giving to senator romney. california's a really big state, and so every number coming out of california is going to be a big number. and so when you, you know, look at this question of unemployment insurance fraud, right, $100 billion is a lot of money. but, you know, i was looking at the percentages from other states when it came to insurane fraud, and there are some big numbers too. the number in california is about 11% of benefits paid, but, you know, in tennessee it was 15%. in alabama it was 14%. in south carolina it was 14%. in kansas it was 27%. every state had issues here. but what seems important to me is that you led when it came to implementing reforms, so much so that as i understand it the trump administration ended up adopting some of the reforms

that you put in place. so itch didn't sound like you gt a chance to fully, you know, give the committee the information on the reforms that eventually became standard practice or recommended to other states and just wanted to let you finish out that answer. >> senator, thank you so much. thank you for meeting with me prior to this hearing as well. first, lette me just state again very clear clearly that there is no place for fraud, waste or abuse in systems hike this -- like this. thear criminal enterprises that took advantage of the lack of eligibility requirements built into the pandemic unemployment assistance program made it, it was not only bad because it was a fraud on taxpayers, it was also bad because it made it even more difficult for states to actually pay out claims to to those who were eligible.

so it was, there was really, it was really a horrible situation that there was so much fraud on thee system. but you are absolutely right, senator, a that once we saw that it was happening and it happened because the pandemic unemployment assistance program and the state auditor said this too the, it did not have safeguards if in place at the geten go. it was meantu to go out quickly because we were facing a massive crisis in which people were out of work through no fault of their own own in unprecedented numbers. it would allow people to self-attestri that they were eligible. it had a minimum payment amount, a minimum payment should be paid. it had automatic back dating in it. so if you applied in august but you were unemployed as of february, you got all the amount back to february. hose were built into program that is states worked mightily to the stand up very quickly on

outdated technology and the rest which is well known. once as california labor secretary one of the things that i did was i stopped automatic back dating. and and that is believed to have stopped over $60 billion worth of fraudulent payments that could have gone out. after i kid that, the department of -- i did that, the department of labor did issue a directive to all states to do the same thing. since i've been deputy secretary, what we've been doing at the department of labor is really trying to learn from those lessons to the make sure they are never repeated again to work in collaboration with statements to be clear about the things that we should do on a national level to fight that kind of fraud. that kind of fraud went from state to state. to shore up the up employment insurance safety net so that in the next crisissing ed the really deliver. >> thank you for that response. i wanted to make sure we got as much of that on the record as possible. i'm going to ask you a second

question and just ask a commitment from youin to work wh me because i'm running out of time. you and i talked at length in my office about the challenge we have with the defense industrial base in connecticut. we have to the hire 5,700 new workers if connecticut and rhode island -- in connecticut and rhode island to meet the commands of the submarine fleet. we're producing more submarines than ever before. that's a real challenge for us, and it's a challenge we can't meetsl without assistance from e departmentma of labor for apprenticeship programs and work force training programs. so i just want to the ask for your commitment to work with me and other members of this committee who are going to need dol's help and need the secretary's help directly ince making sure a we have enough resources to the train all the people we're going to need in order to fill the needs of our defense manufacturing base in connecticut and throughout the country. >> 100%, senator, yes. >> thank you.

thank you, mr. chairman. >> senator mullens. >> thank youma for being here today. s it's a pleasure meeting you. i do have to the kind of address something at the beginning. you know, our chairman came out with a very strong comment daring everybody, basically, that if they disagreed with your qualifications, to say it with a straight a face. and is as always, he always talks about starvation wages in which i thought, man, he's really setting a tone here. but i'm just starting to figure out, that's just your personality. no offense, but it's just your personality. i don't understand the lack of knowledge, basic knowledge, when this is the health, education, labor and pension, the basic knowledge to understand what labor costs really are as a business other than who's employed truly hundreds of people, labor is always going to have a beginning wage. and everything else goes from there. so you can't call a beginning wage a starvation wage if

there's always going to be a beginning wage. i don't care what industry you're in,st always going to start something. product that industry is making is going to adjust whatever the cost of thatt final project is. it's going to be delivered to everybody.re but that is actually what an apprenticeship program is too because that's supposed to get people into the program to get people working towards that. yet. apprenticeship programs themselves can be restrict i because a lot of people that are entering these work forces, they didn't want to go to college. butap yet we keep expanding apprenticeship programs from one year to two year to three years, some are four years and longer. and if the individuals, look, i didn't want to go to college, so i entered work force to begin with. we've got to think about what we're talking about when we start expanding apprenticeship programs. but it also understands the lack people that's running these programs, running an industry of actually understanding what business is like. which is why so many of us, why you are seems like a super nice

individual, and we had a great conversation. that doesn't mean being nice qualifies you to be, be secretary of labor. because if you don't have that basic understanding of knowing what it's like, then how can you relate and truly represent both sides? for instance, have you, have you ever been an employer of a business? it's yes or no, i'm sorry. >> ite have not, senator, but my parents have.de my family -- >> have you ever done it? >> i have not. >> if you don't understand whatst the like, how hard it is to sit awake at night figuring out how to man a job when you don't have the people there, you're going to have to do it. have you ever created or balanced a budget for a business? yes or no. these are yes or nos real quick. i want to run thrum them. i'm going to say that's a no. have you ever acquired or sold a business? >> i have not, senator. >> have you ever had to raise capital in order to launch a new business? >> i have not, senator. >> which goes back to one of your comments which you yo

about, have you ever had to provide quarterly reports to shareholders? >> senator, i have not done these things -- >> i'm just going, this is qualifications, becausell the chairman said canh you actually say with a straight face that you're qualified, and these are points we're trying to make. have you ever decided which health insurance plan you're going to the offer to employees? >> mr. chairman, if i may -- >> i'm just trying to make a pointt here. so have you ever, have you ever -- >> i have not chosen a health insurance plan -- >> have you ever had an employee file worker's comp that you had to work with or fight against? >> as an employer, no. >> kuhn what what a worker's comp experience mod is? >>rs i do based on my work -- >> but you've never had to apply it to your bottom line to figure out what your profit margin's going to be. have you ever filed taxes on behalf of a business? >> i have not, senator. >> have you ever had to comply with federal government on a

maule business? >> no. >> it's hard to understand when you're getting regulations coming at you. have you ever had your business model threatened by the federal government's overreach of regulations? >> no, senator -- >> i have. andon that's what drove me here today. and we have someone like yourself that makes a comment like this, like you did in 2005, says the very definition of a corporation has an identity that is created to permit maximum income and designedded to insulate individuals through profit of the liability. that's your opinion about a corporation. codo youti still stand by that? >> i don't remember when i wrote that or the context in which i wrote it -- >> but -- there is no context in which this can be taken out of context. do you still believe that to corporations are are just the insulation to shield individuals hike myself? because we don't have any liabilities, and we have no financial liabilities at all as a corporation, as an owner at all. iar mean, i don't understand th. do you still stand by that

comment, yes or no? >> i will tell you what i do stand by -- >> no, no, i've got one more question. do you stand by that commentsome. >> i costand by the important rule that both employers -- >> do you believe that america wases built on white privilege d systemic racial insubordination to which you've written also? >> can i say what i costand by, sir? is. >> thosepl-- are your comments. i'm asking do you still believe both those comments? you wrote those. do you stand by those comments ori not? you wrote 'em, do you stand by them or not? >> i believe that we -- >> no, ma'am. do you believe what you said? it's a yes or no. >> i will say this -- >> if you can't answer it, no on this,m ms. su, then that's a hue problem. just like our chairman sometimes leads with the gavel with a biased opinion, you also will lead y as secretary of labor or labor department with bias, becausec you cannot say those type of statements and represent

all sides. with that, i yield back. >> senator kaine. >> thankh you, mr. chair. secretary su, thank you for meeting with me earlier and talking about issues that i'm concerned with in virginia, the tight labor market, seasonal visas for a lot of our seafood workers. i really appreciate it. i look forward to supporting you and workingng with you on those issues. i just want to summarize some topics, and i want you to tell me if i'm wrong at all, summarizing what i heard before. business interactions, senator romney said that you had only started to meet with business associations recently, but during your two years you've met with businesses repeatedly, correct? >> yes, senator. >> chambers of commerce, united airlines, businesses connected withas ports all around the country, railroad -- you had dialogue with businesses constantly during your two years, isn't that accurate? >> that is correct. >> businesses like the los angeles chamber of commerce have said secretary su has worked

with the chamber many times to bring a voice to labor issues, that's one of the biggest chambers of commerce in the -- is that correct? >> i don't know for aha fact, b, yes, i do believe that is what theyve said, thank you. >> and the society for resource managements, hr professionals around country, they support your momming nation. i think in business interaction itci seems like you have been engaging in the dialogue with businesses, to senator mullins point, you haven't run a business. we have cabinet members who have. i think cabinet members should bring diverse experiences to the table. you can't have all experiences, butpo other members can. secretary of commerce had a very active role in the private sector before her public service career. with respect to the concern about independent contractors, folks are concerned with the particular california a.b. 5 law. a california supreme court decision can. you never been on california supreme court. it was codified by the

california legislature. you were not a member of the california legislature. you were obligated to implement just as you would be obligated to implement federal laws in your capacity as deputy secretary of labor. you have issued a regulation in this space that does not incorporate the abc test for determining who is an employee and who's an independent contractor.. the major groups that were concerned with a.b. 5 like lyft and the franchise association have praised the federal standard that you've issued as, thank goodness this standard does not include the thing we didn't like about the california standard. so there's a pr campaign, don't californias arizona, or don't t julie su california our workplace. very explicitly the independent contractore rules that departmt of labor is issuing now is not the a.b. 5 rule, so the attacks really are not relevant to what the department of labor's doing today. on the unemployment insurance

issue, i agree with senator romney and others, fraud's outrageous and especially people taking advantage and defrauding the program that was designed to help the nation out of a crisis. but many states, as senator murphy said, had fraud rates much higher, and for people who just didn't focus on this, let's be really career about what thid was. the week that ended march 14, the, which was the last pre-pandemic week, 278,000 americans filed unemployment insurance claims. the next week it was 2.9 million americans. the week after that it was 5.9 million americans. the week after that it was 6.1 million americans. so our nation's employment agency that had been used to dealing with 278,000 claims a week nationally were now dealing with 20 times that. and what did congress do? we did three things that ad to

your workload even beyond that exemotion of claims. we first said you have to give benefits for more weeks. we second said you have to increase the amount of benefits to get us through this economic catastrophe. but third thing, and this is where all the fraud was in every state including virginia, we made you pay unemployment benefits a to a whole class of people who are not part of the unemployment system. independentry contractors, gig workers. congress required you to do that. people who weren't in the california system, who weren't in the virginia system, and we did it to save the economy. 95% of the fraud in california wasco in that program, and that 95% number was probably the same in virtually every state. service the i congress that required you at a time when your work force was low because unemployment claims were low, but now unemployment claims were expanding 20-fold just in your normal business, we made you do

three things. and some scammers took advantage ofg it. it infuriates me when scammers take advantage of seniors or when scammers take advantage of something like that. you were dealing with a reality concern you can't blame congress for this, but i can be honest about a how this problem got created, and i'm upset with the fraud, but i'm not upset that congress did what it did because it helped this nation get through the worst public health emergency and one of the most serious economic challenges in the hundred years. i think you've been -- you did a fine job under challenging circumstances trying to negotiate through the extraordinary set of programs, and i think you've done a fine job in your two years as deputy secretary, and i look forward to supporting your nomination. >> senator budb. >> thank you -- budd. >> thank you, chairman. you're on record supporting a.b. 257, and this bill creates a fast food council of 10

unelected government bureaucrats to dictate wages and working conditions for california restaurant businesses. andod this bill forced unionization on workers who never even asked for it, and it took independents away from small business owners, and it gave it to unelected bureaucrats. deputy secretary su, california voters have gathered enough signatures to prevent a.b. 257 from taking effect, so will you push policies as the secretary of labor like you did in california that take away the independence of job creators? >> thank you very much, senator. it's nice to see you here today. it believe that bona fide independent contractors will always have a place in our economy. they have, they will and they're very, very important. i'm not positive of a.b. 257. i believe you're talking

about -- >> let me just go back ott last part of the question which is will you push policies as secretary of labor like you did in california that take away the independence of job creators? more of a yes or no with minor explanations. >> no. and to be clear, i would absolutely respect thehe authory body, of you to make laws that i confirm if will be enforcing.h >> thank you. you've called the abc test a model for the country. voters in california decided thereou shouldn't even be a modl in that state with over 60% of voters overturning part of the lawfo that applies to ad-based ride and delivery services. it also resulted in a list of carveouts for industries that was longer than the law itself. aside from the fact that california lawmakers are obviously picking winners and losers, itse seems obvious thata

law requiring more than 100 separate carvingouts is deeply flawed. -- carveouts. deputy secretary, do you believe that california's a.b. 5 is a model for the department of labor to build its federal labor policy on? >> thank you, senator. i believe that a.b. 5 was a bill passed by the california legislature and given to me in my then role to enforce. i do not believe that the abc tests that have codified a.b. 5 is federal law, and i do not believe that i could make it federal law unless you all made it federal law. >> lette me push just a little more. so your comments to senator cassidy, you saidd the departmet of labor does not have the authority to implement the abcest the, but do you still --tist test, but to do you still think it's a good model for the country? >> i think, senator, that

independent contractors have a place in our economy and need to be able to operate. i also believe that misclassification, meaning when you have someone who should be an employee but is called inexhibit contractor, maybe thy work -- independent contractor, they work side by side with other people who do the exact same thing they do, so they're not protected by minimum wage, overtime the, unemployment insurance and other laws and the employees are, that that is a problem in our economy that needs to be addressed. >> so, thank you. i want to shift gears to rulemaking. the fish douchely -- fiduciary rule is still on the agenda despite the fact the last time it was the issued it had devastate thing effects causing 10.2 the million low and middle income individuals to lose access. i have serious concerns with the dol reimplementing a failed

standard, not to mention the potential mismatch of industry standards that might arise between it and the sec's reg best interests. so i'm curious how much taxpayer money the dol and the doj previously spent on implementation and litigation of the disastrous 2016 fiduciary rule and how much those departments would project to spend should the labor department move forward with another rule. any idea how much you would spend on that, on implementation and litigation? >> so, senator, thank you. i was not here in 2016. i will say that your point is precisely why it's so important for us to engage with all stakeholders before adopting any rules. >> hopefully, that includes 10.2 million low and middle income individuals who have watched access to investment assistance. i'm out of time. i'm going to be opposing your nomination. i do appreciate your timec toda, and i yield back to the chair. >> thank you, senator. >> senator hassan. >> thank you, mr. chair. and i want to thank you and

ranking member cassidy for the hearing, and acting secretary su, it is good to see you. thank you for meeting with me. before i start with questions, i want to take a moment to echo some of my colleagues' comments this morning and reiterate how important it is to crack down on the alarming increase in child labor violations, expand access to career training pathways that will lead to good paying jobs and support workers who experience disabilities. so i want to start with a question about work force training. people need access to high quality work force training that leads to good paying jobs. as youa may know, i along with senators young, collins and cain are authors of the bipartisan gateway to careers act which would establish a career pathway grant program for community colleges, tech call colleges and work force development partners to provide job training for unemployed or underemployed individuals. it would also provide support to workers who c face barriers such as transportation and access to childcare. ifif confirmed, how will you

increase access to work force training and supports that boost program completion? >> thank you so much for that question, senator, and for your work and leadership in this space. i really enjoyed our conversation about this and other issues. as deputy secretary alongside secretary walsh and as acting secretary and, if confirmed, as labor secretary this would really be a top priority for the department of labor. we are seeing the need for skilled workers in a whole bunch of different industries. that's why the department of labor recently put out an $80 million grant to expand nursing, training for nursing. i know this is something that this committee has already brought to light as well. and that stakeholder engagement andng listening to the needs in the there industry, we found the need is not only for nurses themselves, but also for critical instructors. and so the funding opportunity

does address both those issues. we've expanded apprenticeships in trucking. that's one i haven't talked about yet. it takes too long to the finish programs. i do the think that we have to look at ways to recruit and to train and andnd to get people in high quality -- with high quality training into good jobs as quickly as we can and, if cop firmed, i would love to work with you on this. >> well, thank you. i want to turn to a slightly different topic. in january 2023, the labor force participation rate for people experiencing disabilities was around 25% compared to about 65% of those without a disability. we have to do better as a country at removing barriers and creating opportunities for individuals experiencing a disability so that they can enter andnd remain in the work force. i deeply value the work that the department's office is doing to increase employment opportunities for these individuals and helping employers better understandi was

to support them. to this end, acting secretary su, can you detail some of the major initiatives currently underway by the office of disability and policy? >> thank you so much for that question, senator. i was going to say and you beat me to it, the department does have our own sub-agency that's devoted to exactly the issue that you're raising because we see and understand that it is critically important if we are to build an economy where no one is left behind toyo make sure tt communities that are not participating in the labor force to the extent that they want to and could have an opportunity. and that isd, the primary focusf our office of disability employment policy. andfo one of the biggest -- for odep is i think what you're alluding to, competitive, integrated employment, making sure that people with disabilities are able to work in

the labor force alongside workers without disabilities and get the training and the pathway for upward mobility a that they need and deserve. and so we've been doing that kinds, of integrated employment work in multiple areas. we do it through technical assistance grants, we do it clue collaboration with -- through collaboration with states to make sure that funding that states are providing are all driving toward a holistic set of policies that will actually make a difference in the lives of people withap disabilities on te ground. and we have cone it in the form of technical assistance and worked directly with employers so that they understand how to deintegrate these kinds of policies in the workplace. >> well, thank you very much, and i look forward to working with you on that. iso have another question that that the i will submit for the record on aparen disships because i understand, one, i'm out of time, and i understand

other people have touched on it. it's an area in which new hampshire leads, and we would very much appreciate working with the department, moving forward and with people on both sides of the aislele to improve apprenticeships and make them more available in this country. >> senator portman. >> thank you, mr. chairman. chairman sanders likes to keep things on time here. i like that too. i'm from the logistics business. enjoyeded our conversation yesterday. i'm going to read a statement here because, like i told you, i think so much of what you expect in the future, you've got to pay attention to what might have happened in the past. so neera tanden, in her capacity as president of the center for american progress, held a panel on wages and benefits in december of 14 with you, administrator david wile who recently did not get nominated into a spot and labor secretary tom perez. on this panel, and i'm quoting what you said, just the last term the governor of california

signed a bill that creates a concept of client-employer that gets to the whole -- workplace that david b -- wile has talked so much about. fissured workplace, about a century of labor laws are premised on employer-employee relationships. so when you have these middlemen and subcontracting, you really start to take away from that. from the protections wean those at the top who contract for labor and those at the bottom. so the client-employer concept if you hire workers through a labor contractor as part of your regular course of business and there is a whole definition for what regular course of business means, but then you as the client-employer are responsible for all the wage liabilities as if you were the employer, and i think that has the potential to

be a very important tool to get at the insulation between the top and bottom layers. .. a franchise or franchisee is the most normal way to enter into the world for small business. i don't think you would be working on board keeping that kind of structure there talk about gig economy which we had a conversation on think you were acknowledging that was different from franchise or franchisee. i don't need to respond, i think a lot of it has to do with anybody coming to a positionma f sponsor, got to probably justify

some of the things in the past, character is important and i want you to respond to it. 1989 you to in the seizure of the president of stanford kuniversity's office in a protet known as takeover age nine and i've got from the archives of stanford library and i would like to submit into the record, thank you. stanford's president describes the office is unlawful, and of the greatest student protests in the last 16 years, three years after the takeover 89 stanford key participant of the griswold nine, a group of radicals that seized and occupied the office. in 1995 l.a. times, i was arrested but you know well all

the charges were dropped. please comment on your record in the archives of the stanford library, how could be something that would make us feel confident? >> thank you very much, thank you for the time with me on we've had aak lovely discussion and i appreciate your discussions. if i may just say, one of the first cases i had was involving workers were forced to work for as long as 18 hours a day but in that case, it was not just those who have a role, there were contractors of the chain who knew about what was happening. >> was signed in example that would be descriptive. >> they have nothing toou do wih it whatsoever.

>> that was my question earlier. >> nothing whatsoever. when everybody talked about franchise company is away immigrants get their first business in the middle class, that is my family, that was my experience. >> or you could gavel them out. you want to comment? >> state law not federal law and i will sure the committee my fidelity to federal law is complete.ce what happened, i do know if this utis responsive, i have an anecdote to share about this which is at my harvard

graduation the dean of the law school who was dean during the victims actually said at the graduation ceremony was good to see julie in my office talking about the addressing issues, i share that because i do think there are many ways to make change. many ways to make the world a a better place somebody who sits down at the table and -- >> thinking about the future so think you. >> thank you, mr. chair. acting secretary, i agree with you, there are many ways to make the world a better place. have to say looking at the work you've done, i you've devoted

your entire life to making the world a better place so i strongly support your nominee, he done an outstanding job as deputy secretary of the department of labor working as a key partner with secretary walsh, you have aet well-deservd reputation for inclusive leadership working with workers in business and industry association toa like to fulfill the mission of the department of labor and implement laws congress passed, that would be your job as secretary of labor and thus remind everybody the department of labor is to foster promote and develop the welfare of wage earners and retirees in the united states to improve working conditions and advanceme opportunities for employment and a short work related benefits, it is important to remember that is what you swear to uphold as i sincerely hope become our next

labor secretary. i want to know there is questions raised today about whether or not you have experience negotiating large contracts. you probably aren't even aware because this just happened but i understand played an important roleau in the contract negotiations international warehouse union and maritime association and this money they reached an agreement which is a very important moment, something for your delighted to know and be aware of and maybe you could take a minute to talk about your experience in this case being part of an important negotiation that impacts really the entire country. >> thank you for the, senator. those are parties i have known

before i came, they are in the midst of a very important negotiation that is consequential. i believe for the parties and also our supply chain and economy as a whole.ti i have been engaged the parties and our role is to help support them resolving their issues. i did recently impress upon them urgency of the issue and i am pleased they've made progress that's been announced. there will still be a few issues that need to bee, resolved but t is a good example of how collective bargaining process really works so thank you very much. >> it's also an example how important it is forga leaders le you to be engaged in this and i

will offer for the committee this is a quote from jean executive director of the port of l.a. and said in its brand-new, he said communication has been hourly by the minute acting labor secretary has been on this morning, noon and night. that is the kind of leadership demonstrated and why you are respected by folks in labor and business who had an opportunity to work with you because they value effectiveness and somebody was about seeking solutions to problems i rather than making problems. sometimes it happens that big business lobbyists decide that they are going tobl flex their muscle and try to get highly qualified candidate there's very little action to the person or record and they are about politics and money. i think this is a situation where you have big business

putting up the states and senators on this committee, you know what isho going on, they ae trying to use the money to influence and it's our job to capture all of that and get to the real personna and their qualifications and i think the record is clear your highly qualified to serve as labor secretary and i'm grateful for the opportunity to support you and i look forward to seeing you in this. >> senatorat murkowski. >> thank you, mr. chairman. welcome back to the midi. this question for you regarding a project i've had time to spend with labor secretary labor marty welsh, secretary welsh was very helpful in his capacity as head

of the department of labor and supporting this project, it is a resource development project in my state that promises great opportunity for alaskan workers, a time when our economy is struggling, he recognized the value of the, the value the project creates over 2500 construction jobs, 300 long-term jobs and contribute to our nation's energy security so as i look back over your tenure as the department, i see you have 22 meetings with the epa climate related advocacy groups, not too many with industry for in prior groups. the question is whether you would continue support for projects like the willow project that clearly creates jobs and improve energy security regardless of what part ofrt the

energy sector they are in. one thing he said renewable energy jobs and in my state we are still at the basis of our economy is resource production. resources live on so your support for the project. >> thank you, it is good to see you again. i know that project was something we talked about last time but many of the issues -- appreciate the chance to speak with you. sec. welsh and i have worked the last two years and when the president nominated me to become labor secretary, he said he wanted me to finish the job so the idea of continuity and

making sure we deliver on the many important things as we continue robust economic recovery we had are things i am very committed to and i stand by the decisions that were made during his tenure and obviously ther the leadership of president on the issue you raised. >> you haven't told me you support the willow project and the fact that it will provide significant jobs which are verye important to my state so to speak.if critical minerals and mining projects that will put in place a significant economic opportunity and job opportunity without producing raw materials. again it would be recognition

you have to drill forth days, these are jobs the country needs and the department of labor would support those. i want to ask about employment insurance and when you first came before the committee the concern of the time in my state we have an aging system when it comes to our ui system. we provided for the purpose of helping states modernize their aging system, we clearly need it, it's about $50 million and did not any allocated. it is myy understanding the funs aswere disbursed for the produc.

we don't know exactly what it is but we do know states like alaska are desperately in need of the modernization and updates didn't receive it. the question to you is why? why they did not use the funding provided to support the creation of new systems and whether or not you recognize it has to be a priorityt so thank you. to take the second question first, i absolutely recognize why it has to be a priority, i know we had a conversation about outdated technology and the need for system so they can be liable the when we have crises. the answer about alaska but i will tell you one

of the things done the last two years is making sure the $2 billion or so american rescue plan money meant for states and going out to state. some of it happens in phases so some states, some of my meetings we've talked about how much has gone to a certain state for fraud prevention and with the like, i looked into what happened with alaska, and some of this was done with where the states were in terms of this but our planap is to get the vast majority of theon funding out to states in the way they were intended by june. >> senator hickenlooper. >> the willow project.

>> i support the decision made and other projects are coming, i commit to you this understanding of the issue to make sure the people of alaska is heard and well represented in the department of labor. >> thank you. >> it's no secret the appreciation for julie and i appreciate you being here and going through this. as someone i spent eight years, i spent au, lot of my time tryig to recruit and attract people to public service who insp many cas could make enormous the more money is prestige or celebrity -- your celebrity status here is pretty good i have to say and i

have to say the highest the end of the table and in your firsthandd experience to be a small business person, you understand what so many workers and families across the country are facingn everyday and i think your focus on beingth transformative so many people is unbelievably powerful. last as a mom, you recognize the need to invest in our next generation making sure we have cortical sensory lines but does work through thick and thin to have exams today myself so anyway, i look forward -- i want

to talk a little bit and i know this has been covered thoroughly already, it's too important to refer to such terms but we talked previously how these needs need a rebranding and refreshing because a big impediment is convincing not just students but their parents that this is an experience for every individual but we need to rebrand so this doesn't drive down opportunities for so many people. you want to comment on that? >> i agree with that, thank you so much about your comments and for your support. i agree that it's funny i just had the conversation yesterday with a large employer who says the same thing one of the challenges we face as we seek to

expand the manufacturing sector in the united states and manufacture a weapon system and all kinds of things across this that we need to rebrand some of theor jobs for the jobs that are new, there's ways to do this matter different also make them much more accessible to all communities so i think making it clear that a pathway to apprenticeship for someone who is going to get a job is just as valid, as a worthy of our respect and going to a four-year college is something i commit to you and i know it's something you care deeply about what we should be engaging in use the privilege and hearing our voices

to make sure that happens in it with the commitment and robust manufacturing industry in the united states. >> will think we could emphasize enough to agree with us on this, this is one of the looming opportunities there for the taking and great leadership you can provide, about 25 seconds to maybe for the record, i know we talked a little bit about small business employers in the paperwork makes it hard for them to go through the apprenticeship process and hope we can work together with department of labor to facilitatefo tha and & less red tape and bureaucracy.

>> absolutely commit to working with you on the. >> senator casey. great to be with you and thank you for your public service and i support your nomination probably and you are not only prepared to do this job, think you will serve distinctions that you have in the department of labor already, it's important o put a few things on the record that the get to my question but i'll start with the mission of the department and the destruction. washington you have am debate around impact and sometimes a lot of this. here's the mission statement for the united states department of labor, a mission statement today and under the prior administration to foster, promote and develop the welfare of wagee earner, job seekers and retirees of the united states

and also improve working conditions in advance opportunities for profitable employment and ensure work-related benefits and rights. it is not the department of corporations, not the department of employers and employees and all the talk you've heard, is the department of labor. i want permanent labor fighting everyday for workers, not as some have characterized. the department has to administer some 180 federal laws for 150 million workers and 10 million workplaces. to do to protect workers if corporations were doing their job, we wouldn't needd a good habit of labor but we need one in the unitedte states of ameri. this is where hot air is in washington in this debate about outhis nomination. i want to clarify, the first

thing california is a huge state. one in five unemployment in the country, is isn't it true 95 to 90% of the fraud in california was not from the regular on employment minister but unemployment program rated by the united states senate and the house in the middle of the pandemic, is that true? >> that is true so we have a special unemploymentu program fr the pandemic. and a lotpe of things went well and a lot of things didn't go very well. this isn't me, bloomberg law said this, many of the claims in california across the country stemmed from federal relief program.

every united states senator voted yesli on, program motion able to support independent contractors and other workers not previously eligible for benefits. claimant under the program to provide documentation verifying it, the ability of states to accept selfla certification allowed global workers to get faster payments and also expose the system to hang out false claims. that's bloomberg law talking about what congress did and the states had to administer so i think it is pretty clear there's a lot of hot air and friction around washington about what happened in california. i hope there is a similar examination every state unemployment insurance record as well. here's my question the minute i

have left about a topic made reference to, subminimum wage. we're trying to do everything we can to phase it out, get rid of it for workers and workers with disability. trying to get rid of it want to makee sure people with disabilities have a fair shot to work with the bipartisan bill, the transformation for the employmentt act and the workers with disabilities to raise their wages. want to ask youa again, what is the administration doing to ensure we have competitive integrated employment for people with disabilities and how are you enforcing this requirement? >> thank you very much for our meeting and for this question which is very important. competitive employment is the

northstar, it f is where we want to make sure workers with disabilities are able to access the same good job we've talked about with the training they need to succeed in those jobs and support they need in the workplace and pathways for upward mobility in those jobs. the office of disability employment process leader focus on that every possible way to expand theas programs support employers for adapting the program and provide technical assistance to do outreach and workers with disabilities to mark we will work with you on this. thank you, mr. chairman.

senator marshall. >> thank you chairman, thank you for being here. the unemployment insurance the statute of limitations improperlyon paid insurance benefit in many have limitations on the cases we define in 2025, we have legislation never extend statute of limitation for another five years consistent with the statute of limitations in fraud. how do you feel about the statute of limitations on this? >> thank you very much, senator. i know i said this already butui feel it bearsrs repeating the fraud waste and abuse in the

system was unacceptable and quiet the department of labor has been focused on making sure we are creating a system in conjunction with states that will stop at the front door and deliver benefits to eligible individuals for workers out of a eljob to be good stewards of taxpayer money. i've said ab few times these issues, i appreciate these questions, i have the authority of his body decisions congress makes about policies in this case and others is something congress would have passed and entrust the department of labor to enforce.

>> there's still ongoing and we can get back the money. >> i don't believe in the pandemic an appointment -- >> the priority should have been known so extending of limitation would allow going after this. >> the department of labor inspector general hasf been doig to investigate cases to apply to recover money where possible and i do think it is important part. >> i will talk to you about the employer definition in the past decade, previous administrations provided clear-cutut definitionf

the joint employer and you may have answered this already and it's not been replicated with anything, it's classified for businesses and would you agree employers should be considered a joint employer only directly and immediatelyui exercised. >> thank you for that question it was put in place by the that was actually vacated by the federal judge and they said the rule could not stand. as a result the department of labor was needed. what it did was restore the state of the law to place it was which was based on decades of federal cases interpreting to a

joint employer was and under what circumstances. >> you agree with how i defined a joint employer was? i won't go over it again, would you agree and employer to be considered a joint employer only if directly after exercising control of the primary elements? >> thank you for that question, senator. i know you know this, it is. in fact specific test based on the relationship between two or more -- >> would you agree with the way i defined it? >> i'm not familiar enough the case law to say that summary, the statement of it cut --

>> i understand that, it's been waiting over a year for an answer, do you think they sooner?an answer is any uncertainty? >> i think the regulatory certainty iser important, i know that my family history of having a small business, my extended family current status as business owners, the joint employer test as it stands is based on case law developed over several decades. the department of labor does not have in its current agenda a plan to issue another rule about that. >> thank you. i yield back. >> senator cassidy.

>> a wonderful personal story, you've been in a stressful situation. i'd like to clear up a couple of things said senator smith suggested that the final agreement achieved, that is not the case just for the record. the pacific maritime association stated, things we have been negotiating much less reaching an agreement just for the record.n a second, i have to disagree with my friend bobob casey, the department of labor of employees and not just the unions and i'm sure you meant that but there's a lot of freelancers who rejected av five has been recommended and that's what a lot of the discussion is. part of the discussion you might guess i am suspicious of the

termrm but regarding the abc tet the prior administration's rules vacated by the district rule on appeal is not for sure they continue to be vacant and i'm told it isca consistent from the supreme court. lastly the subsequent rule put out by the administration began to redefine roles more consistent with listen abc as opposed to that. i say that for the record and senator casey, thank you for your indulgence. >> if i can say one thing, i will accept attorneys that say i love doctors and my brother watching would want to say liver surgeon saved her life so i thank you for all you've done.

>> thank you. let me also say for the record the mission statement i read worker, to foster and develop these groups, wage earners and job seekers and. retirees and i think it should be kept in mind as opposed to having corporations as opposed to employees that we can continue to debate that. thank you very much, i'll read a statement for sanders, this concludes our hearing. thank you for joining us today. i asked unanimous consent to enter into the record 68 letters from labor and advocacy organizations, businesses and individuals in support of the nomination. the committee willer vote on the nomination next wednesday 10:00 a.m. in this hearing room formi

any senators wishing for additional questions, questions for the record will be due tomorrow friday april 2:15 p.m. >> i asked consent to enter letters representing 50 organizations in the business group expressing concerns. >> without objection. the committee stands adjourned.s [inaudible conversations]

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