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intelligence officials testified on the increase threats posed to the u.s. by the chinese government including china's intelligence collection efforts and influence operations. homeland security hearing is about one hour 45 minutes. ♪ [background noises] the committee on homeland security subcommittee and counterterrorism law enforcement and intelligence will come toom order. good morning the purpose of this

hearing is received testimony from expert witnesses and security realm that will educate our efforts to mitigate threats posed by the chinese communist party too the u.s. homeland. i now recognize myself her openingd. statement. good morning. i would like to thank all of our witnesses for testifying today be bringing your expertise to this committee informing members of congress of threats we are currently facing. despite years of attempts by the united states to develop a productive with dishonesty and aggression. the government run the chinese commerce party at manipulated us at every turn committing espionage in her homeland and working to overturn the global rules -based order. u.s. is now in competition the chinese government at the top of

the global world order while degrading power militarily, diplomatically and economically. in recent months events have shown us of escalated this competition entered u.s. airspace and spent the next eight days over the majority of the continental united states. we do not know yet we can research and the intention critical infrastructure across our country. homeland and ultimately one of the many ways to exploit today weer must take the conversation beyond that balloon. and discuss all avenues the ccp is threatening u.s. homeland security national strategy of

stealing from u.s. military and civilian targets the majority of the threats china poses to the u.s. homeland security are occurring below the threshold of traditional conflicts. we need to be cognizant of these threats generate multifaceted solutions to deter them. these threats already directly affecting american citizens. cancer center for instance one of the nation's top hospitals for cancer my home state of texas ousted several scientists in the center and 2019 the scientists were flagged by the u.s. national institutes01 of health regarding a variety of threats including data security, property loss ultimately investigated by the fbi. this incident was by no means unique with the ccp continued targeting american research and innovation across the country. additionally ccp is exploiting the open nature of american

academia to seal vital research and development. confucius institutes mechanism uses ccp to recruit american talent to support military civil fusion u.s. government has worked most institutes. their influence on american universities. today is a matter fact i am reintroducing the german green and congressman brad the ghs restrictions on confucius institutes and chinese entities of concern act. work to close institutes and programs at the same goal operating in the u.s. it also holds american universities accountable and ensures that prioritizes student education and right to free speech above partnerships with

confucius institutes her car universities to censor curriculums in favor ccpqu ideology. i appreciate the support of german green, and look forward to bipartisan discussion on this. in addition to threats to american ip and academic freedom ccp isan targeting u.s. cyber security critical infrastructure and undermining our economic security. moreover illicit fentanyl, fentanyl analogs and related precursor chemicals are predominately source from the prc and sent to mexico for these poisonous drugs continue to feel the tragic mental crisis in her homeland. i am eager to discuss these challenges and more during today's hearing. let me be clear about this hearing. to anyone who is listening at home or abroad, this conflict in the discussion today does not have anything to do with the chinese people who are living in china and being manipulated by

the ccp. this conflict is with the ccp is an authoritarian regime crazy genocide with its own people they censorri free speech, not just in china but across the globe and the aim to end democracy as we know it. this hearing is the first of many but it is a first step on the subcommittee and a greater committee on homeland security, which we intend to confront the threat stemming from ccp that target our homeland for lumet ccp aggression a strength, deception with unflinching truth in its attempts at exploitation with justice. look forward topt bipartisan cooperation is congress as well seek effective solutions to combat pervasive threats posed d by the ccp and the homeland. i now recognize ranking member, my friend from rhode island for his opening statement. mike's good morning. i want to thank chairman for calling this important hearing and thank our witnesses for comingng today. i especially want to thank

doctor tyler from brown university in rhode island for joining us along with their other expert witnesses. it is an honor to serve as ranking member of the subcommittee and i look forward to working with you mr. chairman and all members of the subcommittee on a bipartisan basis to protect americans from those who seek to threaten thehe security of the homeland. make no mistake, china is the competitor with the greatest combination of intent and capacity to threaten u.s. global leadership. the president himself stated last year himself by 2049 he wants to ensure china andf the ccp lead the world in terms of composite national strength in international influence. this is concerning for all of us who believe deeply democracy ano human rights must be advanced and protected here in our own country and across thehe world. just lester fbi director christopher asap before this committee in this very room and warned the greatest long-term threat to thehe information and

intellectual property and or economic vitality alcounterintelligence economic espionage threat from china. collar secretary has warned the chinese communist party is accelerating their efforts to fuse economic and technology policies with their military ambitions in ways that are forcing us, compelling us to defend united states businesses dand workers. we have already seen the chinese communist party threaten the safety and privacy of american citizens to economic espionage and theft of u.s. intellectual property. the theft of personal data of american citizens through cyber attacks, the recent use of a spy balloon and other methods of surveillance to illegally gather intelligence on american territory and the buildup of military capabilities that seek to eclipse the united states and our democratic allies. we must recognize the threat posed by the ccp take immediate action toon best position the u. to confront china's attempts to undermine our national security.

today's hearing is an important opportunity for members of the subcommittee to demonstrate we are united in a bipartisan effort to defend the privacy and safety of the american people. to protect u.s. industries and supply chains that enhance national security. all while remembering one of the most important ways to counter the chinese communist party's ambition is to build an economy here at home that works for working people so we can show the worldrl our american systemf democracy and freedom is more effective in lifting people up in the ccp model of her talk her seat and repression. democrats are committed to doing this work with our republican colleagues in the spirit of collaboration. last year thanks alicia president biden congress passed thesh bipartisanship set to invt $280 billion into domestic conduction that will enhance her national security, strengthen u.s. industry, create jobs,

reduce inflation and improve our competitive with china. cia has recently lost dedicated mission center and the state department have launched a new office of china coordination in order to strengthen the diplomatic military and intelligence capabilities and meeting ccp threats. it is my hope today's hearing will further illuminate the ccp strategies to undermine our democracy, our economy and way of life. and how congress can work together to meet these challenges. we do this work together we must remember the people of china and people of chinese origin experience oppression and human rights violations at the hands of the authoritarian chinese communist party and anti- asian harassment and discrimination is too prevalent locally and here at home. might be abundantly clear we do not condone any anti- chinese or anti- asian bigotry. and we must condemn any acts of

discrimination in the strongest possible terms. our struggle is not of the chinese people but rather the chinese communist party that is increasingly hostile to democracy and humanos rights. the ccp wants nothing more than just the americans become divided and prejudiced but they disappointed. instead we will outcompete the ccp by ensuring america remainsi a beacon of freedom to the world and by continuing to provide safe harbor to those fleeing oppression and violence. that istr how we will strengthen our nation and our economy. i look forward to hearing from today's witnesses and i yield back. >> think it ranking member. other members of the committee are reminded opening statements may be submitted for the record. i'm pleased to have distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this very important topic. i ask that our witnesses please rise and raise the right hand. use almost where the testimonyem will give before the committee on homeland security of the

night states house of representatives over the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth so help youte god? thank you. let the record reflect the witnesses have answered in the affirmative, thank you. i like to formally introduce our witnesses. the honorable wilbur williams dedicate his life or 32 years to government service. in may of 2020 senate confirmed him as the very first director of national counterintelligence and security center. in this position he was the head of counterintelligence for the entirety of the u.s. government is background and counterintelligence lent itself well today to our specific discussion which willpe focus heavily on the ways the ccp espionage efforts and how they impact her homeland including the theft of u.s. ip exploitation of academic research and much more. lieutenant general joined us from the michelin institute also a friend of mine and former line as a fighter pilot. he is a senior fellow for aerospace studies.

he is a command pilot most recently served as deputy chief of staff of operations under u.s. air force headquarters. this is dropped job to oversee airpower capabilities including homelandnd defense mission of north american aerospace defense. the foundation of his impressive background, he'll be able to speak to america's evolving homeland security needs as it faces a challenge never seen before by the ccp. given the recent shocking events which i think were a a wake-up call of the surveillance a balloon, we are grateful for your service general and for being here today. the honorable kerri joins us from the center for strategic and international studies or csis or she is the director of aerospace security project paired prior to this she served as deputy under secretary of defense for intelligence and security. her strong background in homeland security and defense policies willxc be an exceptionl addition as we discussed the growing and changing threat

ilandscape including threats of america critical infrastructure as it pertains to the u.s. competition with china. i would now like to once againef recognize the ranking member gentleman from rhode island for brief introduction of the next witness. quick thank you, mr. chairman from pleased to welcome our fourth witness doctor tyler is an assistantro professor of political science and international public affairs at brown university from the great state of rhode island. he is also the watson institute assistant professor of china studies and devotes his time and effort to improving our understanding of national security decision-making in the people's republic of china. professor also previously served as a military intelligence officer with assignments in afghanistan, u.s. cyber command the office of the secretary of defense. thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today i yield back. >> thank you very much. and again thank you to all the witnesses for taking time here.

i now recognize the honorable william for an opening statement that we do have a timer we will keep them to five minutes, you are recognized. >> chairman, ranking member, and subcommittee. it's an honor to be here with you today to discuss this important topic. it's been 32 years of my career working for the u.s. government. the fbi, cia, as a chairman reference wasl a first confirm director of the counterintelligence security center. i'm here before you today is the ceo of b the group to provide consulting services to board of directors, ceos and executives on this exact threat we discussed today. today's topic, china, is an existential threat complex, pernicious, aggressive, strategic threat our nation has ever faced. the u.s. private sector and academia had become the geopolitical battle space for

china. xi jinping has one goal, to be the geopolitical military economic leader of the world. along with the administrative security people's liberation army, the united front work department they drive a comprehensive whole of country approach through efforts to invest, leverage, infiltrate, influence and steal from every corner in the united states. this is a f generational battle for shooting pain that drives their every decision. we must approach this threat from the communist party of china with the same sense of urgency and spendinggy and strategy for the past two decades combat t terrorism. it offered to the subcommittee we are in a terrorist event slow, methodical, strategic persistent and enduring events which requires a response a degree of urgency of action. let me be more specific. coming to party china's capability for second to none as

an adversary. cyber breaches, insider threats, available for penetrations or critical infrastructure of which 85% is owned by the private sector. have all been widely reported there's much more in the classified room we have become numb to it as a nation. additionally it's estimated 80% of american adults have had all of the private dentist delivered by the comet's party of china and other just most of it. cripplingg stranglehold on many aspects of our supply chain will result in daunting vulnerability in susceptible of unacceptable proportions. in the current threat landscape sophisticated surveillance balloons, maritime port surveillance, strategic land purchases and military bases, terrestrial and space to 5g threats us-based chinese police stations, while weight and tiktok the collage begins to

paint a very bleak mosaic. from the cyber security perspective trying to possess its persisted in unending resources to penetrate our systems and infiltrate our data. sit dormant and wait for critical infrastructure for future hostilities. at the same time insider threat epidemic originate from the commonest party of china has been nothing short of devastating in the u.s. corporate world to addition the commonest party of china's strategically conducts malign influence atoc the state and lol level with precision. this effort must be exposed and mitigated. so why does itr all matter? economic security is national security. economic global supremacy, stability long-term vitality is at risk and squarely in the crosshairs of xi jinping. in 2020 the estimated from theft of intellectual property and trade secrets just from the cummins party of china, just

from what we know in prosecutions is between the 300 billion in $500 billion per year. that equates to about $4,006,000 per year for an american family of four after taxes. the cost is real. how do we mitigate these threats? we must rate a robust private partnership with the real intelligence area while at the same time staying true to our core values and rule of law which made america the greatest country in the world is ever l seen. this will take a whole nation approach and willl take time suh approach will start contextual campaigns reaching a broad audience with a heavy level of government chambers of commerce university campuses and from boardrooms to business schools because the y matters. board of directors investment leaders must begin to look beyond the next fiscal quarter earnings and think strategically about how their investment decisions and awareness, long-term threat can impact not only their business model atod e

economic national interest of the united states. in conclusion i invested terror attacks after september 11 a lead counterintelligence programs of the fbi w for i woud suggest the threat posed by china is much more dangerous than the longevity and sustainability our nation than any terrorist threat actor. thank you i look for trick questions. quick thank you pregnant recognized for his opening statement. looks chairman, ranking member and members of the community thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. as an individual who spent over three decades in service to our nation i am also deeply concerned about the threat of the chinese communist party drives through the u.s. homeland. especially in military swim lane. that is why events like this today are so important. on my last assignment on active duty as a deputy chief of staff for operations for the nine states air force but our job was

to organize, f train, equip forces, air forces and present those forces to the combatant commanders around the world that includes no ride north calm the in charge of homeland defense. i also developed a very good understanding of the threat to china poses to the united states the capability they used to achieve those objectives. i would first like to highlight or begin describing the threat china poses to the united states and its allies. in 1991 the u.s. was t celebratg the end of the cold war we are also celebrating the victory and operation desert storm, china went to school on us. they took note and they started a very concerted and deliberate effort to modernize their military capabilities. and here we are three decades later they have largely met that market. they even seek further progress that is why this year they saw significant increase in their defense spending. there military now enjoys

leading edge capability that include long range persistent straight hypersonic weapons, advanced integrated air defense weapons, stealthy aircraft, surface-to-air missiles andir electronic warfare. several of those systems have the range to hold the r u.s. homeland at risk. in chinese spy balloon as was mentioned before garnered significant attention this past february is a very loud a wake-up call regarding ccp global omission. unfortunately the u.s. is stretched thin when it comes to the capability and the capacity required to defend our homeland and in the air domain. air and space domain norad was originally designed to detect and defend north america from a catastrophic attack from the soviet union, later russia additional row was added on after 911 to intercept, identify redirect unidentified aircraft that were approaching restricted areas. the norad radars were optimized

and in tune to detect aircraft thats met those criteria. the balloons until recently generally did not fit in that category.ns as threats evolved including balloons, stealthy aircraft, you a s unmanned aerial systems, cruise missiles so must our detection and defense enterprise for this will require we modernize current radars and install new sensors and emerging zones of vulnerability. not just over the nation but well outside our sovereign territory so we can get a heads up they areus coming. we must invest resources in the norad mission. that command gets from the u.s. air force air force today is the oldest and.s the smallest it has ever been in history. we are still flying b-52s that are 60 years old. tankers are over 50-year-old. fighters over 30 years old even the same f22 the rest air to air fighter ever made first flew in d.1997. starts abroad.

have the forces in offense of a punch that's where it begins. in modernize to meet the demands of the national defense strategy as well as to deter threats against our homeland. specifically the authorities too small to meetma real world demands. it's a major security concern while other services possess airport is specifically tasked with homeland security to air sovereignty mission. international guard is the entity within the air force bears a preponderance of homeland defense. their mission is particularly hard-hit by the gap between old aircraft that are aging out of inventory the lack of new aircraft arriving to backfill those spots. homeland defense resiliency

sensors data fusion, and fueling capabilities. homeland defense is the highest priority mission we need to start treating it thatrt way. and oneto more story to share wh the groupup here, on january 8, 202011 iranian ballistic missiles hit a u.s. base in iraq. i was the coalition forces air component commander at that time. we possess the intelligence about the attack of what's going toto happen. we were able to detect missiles at launch but we are able to track trajectory. when it came to shooting them down, to defeating the missiles we lacked any options, why? we did not have the capacity, the defensive capacity due to the other global commitments that are force was spread across print american service members had to write out that attack and hope for the best. it was an appalling set of circumstances.

let's think what could happen against our homeland with threats like that part adversaries like china understand the vulnerabilities is gradually waking up this reality. leaders have yet to t seriously address the shortfall. we are still in a problem admiring phase not in a solution implementation phase. that has to change. we have the bravest men and women in uniform but we owe it to them to ensure they are prepared for the mission we asked them to execute. we owe it to our american citizens to ensure they are protected from attack. america's homeland is noac longr sanctuary against threats like china. we must recognize the new reality in aggressively close critical gaps in capacity and capability of air domain. thank you for allowing us to focus on this topic today and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much for your opening statement. now recognize. >> thank you chairman, ranking member and distinguished members of the subcommittee pray thank youf for letting me appear befoe you today. i've been fortunate to examine

these issues for my time at a technology start up, of the department of defense inherent legislatively at the armed services committee. let me servicing conflict with china is not an inevitable, not inevitable. chinese come's party has ambitions to become the world's leading power and has undertaken a broad campaign all tools of national power and influence to achieve. while strategic competition and potential military conflict with china may seem abstract to many americans, china surveillance balloon was atms about visible sign the u.s. homeland is not out of reach of beijing's threats. the challenge is one of those national economic security. noty only the pacing military threat for the united states, but also the top threat to u.s. technology competitiveness. i will discuss three areas with the threat to the u.s. homeland is particularly acute for technology acquisition, critical infrastructure, and influence operation but i will offer few

recommendations to a help direct these challenges. first, technology acquisition. beijingad has made a national gl to acquire foreign technologies to advance its economy and modernize its military. it continues to use both legal and illegal methods to target u.s. technology, including areas such as high-performance computing,re biopharmaceuticals, robotics, energy, aerospace it targets the people, information, businesses and research institutions in the united states it. these methods include economic espionage, data infiltration, joint ventures, research partnerships and tout recruitment programs amongmo others. my written testimony offer several specific examples of wherexa the ccp has put these methods into practice. this matters for our defense. our military battlefield advantage has long rested on our superior technology butut howevr that is at risk as beijing seeks to close the gap in our technology. this matters for american

businesses 225 to $600 billion is annual estimated of the u.s. economy from stolen intellectual property. ccp law and policy further bolsters these methods paid for example 2017 national intelligence law requires organizations and citizens to support intelligence work and to keep it secret. second the ccp as targeting critical infrastructure in the united states. i fully anticipate beijing would seek to disrupt it. possibly through cyber attacks, especially early in conflicts. this to be motivated by desire to deter u.s. action, effective decision-making, and delay of mobilization of u.s. forces or affect the will of the american people. the government is taken some steps to share intelligence information on prc campaigns are target critical infrastructure such as oil and gas pipelines. importantly also included sharing tactics and techniques and procedures used byce chines. third the u.s. homeland is within reach of the prc

influence activity. examples include tiktok u.s. intelligence officialsn caution can be influenced by ccp driven manipulation of its algorithm. they also include operation accent ccp directed individuals to spy on us-based pro-democracy advocates, intimidate chinese and chinese and american students at universities pressure individuals in the united states return to china including by threatening family members. also exerts influence through belt and wrote initiative, exporting terrestrial infrastructure information communications technologies and other technology areas sprayed this global influence directly impacts businesses in u.s. security interests here at home. one acute area of competition is commuter including satellite communications, satellite broadband communication like spacex, start link which cis recently examined. further expansion of chinese telecommunications services could boost beijing's presence

in foreign terrestrial r networ. providing ccp with remote access, enabling it to surveilled universes block internet access and sensor information. i offer few recommendations to help address these challenges. expanding education and awareness in this hearing is very important on that regard to remind the american public the threat posed by the ccp is not abstract nor solely a distant military conflict that could take place across the pacific. the american public and businesses need to understand the security and economic risk and understand they are a target. expand intelligence threat sharing with the private sector. building off work to date they can better understandes vulnerabilities make including leveraging technology as artificial i intelligence to hep identify supply-chain vulnerability, track foreign agents and eliminate

disinformation. leverage technology innovation maintaining u.s. technology leadership means not just preventing the transfer of technology to the prc but also setting the conditions for innovation sector to stay ahead of the competition boosting cooperation with allies and partners which is a competitive advantage and source of strength the ccp does not have it. technology cooperation can be strong feature of these relationships. finally continue to invest in a strong defense including homeland defense which is required to deter prc regression, resiliency to attack and ensure we have the trained people, posture and intelligence weapon systems ammunition to defend the united states of the american people. thank you again for your time today look forward your questions. >> thank you, chernow t recognis for his opening statement. >> chairman pflueger, ranking member and distinguished members of the subcommittee. thank you for the opportunity to

testify today. it is really an honor to meet with you. my testimony is given as a scholar of chinese foreign policy emphasizes for two reasons. my role in academia is one of a researcher not an administrator. my testimony is not on behalf of or directly or indirectly associated with myre employer. second, as of former intelligence officer in the u.s. military and well some of the most detailed reporting on topics of sensitivenessn homelad security remain classified. as such a testimony to offer his scholarly conclusion sick meat drawn upon publicly available research. i remarked they'll focus on two areas. one the broader strategic context in which china's overseas intelligence collection and intelligence campaign should be viewed. two, publicly available research to date of the scope and effectiveness. the competition being the nine states and china represents one of the defining international challenges of the country.

the future of taiwan for the domestic regime the threats for the homeland overseas x to betty's forep the strategic context of a loosely divided into two t categories. swell documents or the recent incident in which a chinese c high-altitude balloon traversed american airspace illustrates and vivid fashion china is willing to assume risks in order to gather data against american targets. parallel to intelligence selection global public opinion

in simplest terms china presents foreign citizens with information with the hope it will shape the targets attitude perhaps the behavior. his efforts to shape foreign public opinion through party propaganda are real. the scope is broader. there's a few comparatively few studies the causal effect and exposure such messages have on foreign audiences. in addition trent in the global opinion should provideom some comfort whatever and so i do have several reasons the operations may prove to bens les effective than some of us might fear it. by emphasizing gaps in public knowledge i'm not suggesting that you can dismiss potential threats china poses to the u.s.

homeland. it'sen an sufficient cause for attention rather we do and do not know will illuminate policy regulations which are detailed in my written testimony. allow me too briefly summarize the care. first the u.s. government will devote resources towards publicly available research buildingng gaps in our knowledge regarding china's activity abroad. second, u.s.se government should used to poetic channels to establish opportunities for american research to better understand the chinese political system and do so in ways they feel protected from potential exploitation entertainment by the chinese authorities. third the u.s. government better disclose its understanding of the threats china poses to homeland security specifically

with data for. >> and citizens assume when they use foreign technologies. thank you very much for your time i look for to answering your questions. >> thank you. members will not be recognized in order of seniority alternate between republican and democrat for five minutes of questioninge it is my hope today we will be able to go through two rounds of questioning. the chernow recognizes myself for five minutes of questioning. i think what we heard there is just an incredible breadth of knowledge and experience about with the chinese communist party has been doing for several decades what they are currently doingal the threats is the wakep call happens several weeks ago with the chinese surveillance and balloon that is incumbent upon us to really start uncovering these threats and quite honestly from what we've heard from this panel, thank you

for all of your opening statements. we could have several hearings on the individual subjects. but appreciate the time here. i will appreciate start with, when you look at the ownership of property in the united states and we go back prc -based ownership of u.s. farmland in the last 20 years has jumped from about $81 million to 1.9 billion at the end of 2021. and moreover i think it is widely reported a lot of the prc or prcwn links ownership is adjacent to very sensitive facilities. could you provide insight as to why that is, what the goal is and what they are doing with those? >> thanks for the question mr. chairman. i'm going to try really hard to

stay within theha classified rem here it's a plan that goes back about a decade ccp plans and of intentions to incorporate multifacetedet intelligence apparatus. it starts what i would call outside the fence line of dod facilities. that began with the cell tower capabilities tracking being able to monitor weapons silos in other areas, purchased businesses outside not only military bases but military residential areas. the influence of the chinese to be able to do software and malware penetration on electrical grids and power stations outside of the military bases. i think the next expectation is exactly what yourre reference. what is the next thing that commonest party of china and russia for that matter are looking to exploit outside the fence linets of the u.s. milita? that includes land purchases. we look at all the land not on

the chinese communist party have purchased are going to find strategic military base and or sub terrestrial things underground as well as energy issues to the military base. we look at the balloon we just saw very similar comprehensive strategic plan. >> the land the balloon now or in the future. does not have strategic entity or coordination. i think we will see in the future what some what they are surveilling or potentially do more surveillance too. >> thank you. thank you for the testimony. the threats you haven't mentioned they are worried about and concerned about on the

airpower threats. what needs to happen resource wise specifically here to identify, deter, detect, defeat? >> thank you chairman. what keeps me up at night is the age and the capabilities of our existing airspace forces. for 20 years and been engaged in land centric campaigns in the middle east. counterinsurgency, violent extremists. counterterrorism pride all important for our nation. but during that 20 years we did not invest in air and space forces to the extent we needed to so we are left with the old fleet that i described before. aro 30-year-old fighter could provide spare support in iraq or afghanistan against a low-end threats threats are it's not going to survive very well i can say china fights. but more so it does not deter china. and so we have to realize the investment that's needed in the air and space domain has been

neglected. for the exact reasons that have been describe our expert panel is on china. that is what keeps me up at night. >> you look at the threats being opposed, hypersonic's the range is increasing, the ability to reach out and touch us, how important is norad question of the joint power enterprise to the defense of our homeland? >> national defense strategy two of them now in a row have said homeland defense is the number one priority. thero problem is we have not resourced it to that extent that our words say. the commanders of norad have asked for modernization of radars foror years now and have not gotten it. that would have helped us to check those balloons sooner. in the aging fighters almost every major metropolitan city in america is defended by our air national guard fighters getting older and older they do not have the capabilities and the radars

they need not only for the balloons but the radar they need for the real threat would be a cruise missile attack against our homeland. so that is what concerns me. >> thank you. my time has expired i yield back and i recognize the ranking member. >> thank you chairman. it is clear the chinese communist party's take a whole of government approach to advancing its ambitions at the expense of u.s. and democratic interest. and therefore we must take a whole of government approach to meeting that. so, i'mm going to focus on the home land realm. can you expand on the methods the ccp is using to influence public opinion both here at home, and what more we could be doing to mitigate their success?

>> sure, thank you very much for the question. the book to date of china's influence operations those in the united states and abroad are focused on winning friends and influencing people. since coming directly from dcheating paying who has directd the parties apparatus. tell the story to the world. it is interesting to think about the ways in which china's institutions domestically are positioned to make that transition from a domestic basic propaganda machine to an international one. if one thanks from the perspective of the chinese communist party from their perspective domestic propaganda has worked. thus far keeping the ccp empower those capabilities and organizations exist. it's easy to see how they would

assume those same types of propaganda it would work. to date however doesn't emphasize in my written testimony we do not necessarily have the best evidence to judge whether or not these propaganda efforts outside of chinese borders have been effective. as i mentioned the opening statements,he practically in the united states and the countries with whom you share closest interest has the client substantially in the past threen years. which would suggest me certain perspective theri propaganda dos not necessary work as a ccp would hope. that being said there's a multitude of things there has been a global pandemic the fact it could be working in certain areas and not others. the framing the chinese communist partyti and diplomats used are more effective than

others. it's one of the reasons i think there needs to be more research and something the government can help with. >> thank you. in your written testimony on the threat of corporate espionage and the theft of intellectual property, he recommended the creation of an economic threat to assist u.s. companies in protecting themselves against corporate espionage. can you expand on how that should be structured to be most effective if we were to do it? >> thank you ranking member. i recommend an entitynt similaro the is specifically geared towards economic awareness. and under sing and trade secret theft. unknowingly the thought process but the laws that govern our patent processes and ip theft on the world.

and educate the outside counsel to understand what it looks like when you are aboute to be stolen and robbed of ip theft. the intelligence community to businesses are not only at risk but in the process. once that happens it's too late the data is gone. theo government needs me more forward leaning. >> i found that very interesting. how it should be staffed very interesting recommendation. >> judgment j yields. the chart now recognize that gentleman from new york. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thankan you all.

dozens of demonstrators protested outside of the building in new yorksi city's chinatown last c month. the building, which isth owned y the chang lee association over a servicethey call station. they are accused ofon operating ccp to make this descendents and activists. like the recent incident with surveillance balloon this station the action that works u.s. sovereignty and poses a threat to national security it's been reported over 100 of these offices around the world. please describe your concerns surrounding this and the safety of americans. in the subsequent it's a

manifestation in the search of the domestic police station is in part in partnership with operation fox hunt that my colleague talked about. what does an international program but very, very aggressive in the united states to surveilled. and they're very successful at it. it's unacceptable. do you know how many are on u.s. soil? >> i'm pretty confident with law enforcement the state, local, federal level are pretty aware of that. >> thank you, mr. chairman i yield back. what's a gentleman yields i know

recognize my good friend and gentleman from california. >> mr. chairman from texas, thank you very much. i've been sitting in this committee for number ofhe years, cyber, big issue continues to be a big issue. a number of testimonies ago we heard the russians have essentially penetrated most of our infrastructure. just like we penetrated most of their infrastructure. we have a standout so to speak. actions is too expensive so to speak as terms of damage. now we have a situation internationally and geopolitical realignment where russia and china are beginning to work much more collaboratively. my question, common thoughts, how do you see this china's

foreign minister recently said essentially warned us of conflict and confrontation. how do you see this evolution in terms of multiplier effect on the threat of the united states. russia and china working together, how real is that? what is the potential for continuedio collaboration to really challenge the united states in ways we have not envisioned in the past, thank you. >> mr. congressman i concur with youron statement. i think it is a very concerning issue into nationstates do not like each other, are merging as one commonn enemy, the united states. geopolitically, diplomatically. >> you say an enemy my friend is at the situation? >> is better you said it but correct. i will stick in my lane here from the mention of russia's penetration to our systems both it, ot, skater, ics here in the

united states. probably predates the chinese, and his party a of china but i'm pretty culvert of the chinese commons of china has either duplicated those penetrations or ridden along those. i think this sharing, the intelligence services between vladimir putin and russia in the party is probably most problematic for me is what they seek that's the most invisible part of that threat. >> i'm thinking right now is still of an edge when it comes to cyber, two or three years may be. so, i often think of defense, a good offense is the best defense you can have it. so if i may, what would you recommend moving forward will be the best way to counter these unprecedented challenges that our countryryle has? >> congressman i think you make a good point it's probably important we reiterate the fact that as much as what you are

hearing here, it's depressing, demoralizing it's a legitimate threat to our nation pretty must pause to remember we have the most amazing military in intelligent and law enforcement capabilities the world has ever seen for the women and men of deity the intelligence community are w phenomenal. our i capabilities are second to none in cyber, military apparatus and intelligence. so americans should go to sleep at night and be thankful for the fact that offensively we've never seen anything better than we can do. >> today, today. >> yes earp, please continue did not mean to interrupt you. does anyone else have thoughts to my questions? ma'am? >> congressman phone might build off of that on cyber, when i look at the homeland so much of our commerce and activity rights on commercial infrastructure and building off of the point earlier, it is very important government figure out how to share threat intelligence information with the private sector come with oil gas

pipeline you hear this top level talk. what his particular valuables bring out a way to provide security to some of these business leaders bring them into the tent. but also share specific techniques, procedures within. it's one thing of the general chinese threat it's another thing to hear the tactics they are using to go after a you. let me work with to take some ypreventative measures. >> 30 seconds, anybody else? the chair i yield thank you very much. >> i would point to your question the incredible success are intelligence and defense departmenten has had with ukraie in preventing russian r capabilities but here in the u.s. as a category four us to being ahead of others in the

cyberspace. >> thank you for ending on a good positive note, mr. chair i yield. former navy seal. >> thank you, mr. chairman i appreciate.an it. we appreciate it. it's not often appear me and my colleagues on the other side of the aisle can agree upon something. the american people are watching and they are very concerned with spy balloons flying over the united states. farman being bought up near theft of the intellectual property the origins of covid. chinese police stations some of our cities. my first question is for you to

live france correctly? quick surge you know what elite capture is? >> yes, sir. >> for the panel and for some of those watching can you describe with that is please? >> councilman i i would probably refer to us on experts here for that definition. >> does anyone want to take a stab at it? >> , mi correct you are an expert in counterintelligence, right? >> yes, sir. >> can you give me a broad it does not have to be super specific, what is elite capture? >> we look at capabilities to be proactive and make an effort to capture telecommunications to humans to technology or in the

gray space provides us the best venue or avenue for potential to win. >> okay. can you give me some examples how that is often done? how that is carried out? >> first of all a lot of it is done section's ability to capture pelt communications, conversations to foreignor adversaries of nefarious activities both terrorism and counterintelligence, espionage those actors overseas and writing on commercial capabilities that are around the world. that capability allows the u.s. to pre-identify and threaten warning to actors here in the u.s. both from assistance data and people perspective.

foreign states and actors often try to compromise leaders and officials within our own government used to that's a form of elite capture? >> i would. it is done quite regularly for decades. >> would you say it's often true family members are often used in these types of efforts to corrupt foreign leader officials? >> congress and for the past decade i have spent my time in three different organizations advising in informing to the threat to them as a person it always starts with family members. >> thank you. sir, are you also aware of some of the reported business dealings of hunter bided of individuals linked to the chinese commerce party? >> only what i've seen in public

reporting, sir. >> what did you think of the reporting you read, sir? >> i'm not sure what i read in public reporting but i could say that of which ford entities are utilized against americans and family members, is tried and true and very predictable and reportable. >> only ask you a follow on to that, sir, did you find the reports whether you believe them or not? did you find those reports concerning? with all of your knowledge in this space and how you have seen this type of thing play out in the past? the potential tactics and techniques that were displayed publicly about the potential for penetration of the united states president is something most intelligent services try to do

rarely. the judgment yield site procedures second round of questions. we have other members of the previous climate show up we will yield that initial question to them. the chair now recognizes myself for additional round of five minutes of questions. thank you for your expertise and your testimony today. i would like to focus on the critical infrastructure peace and what you said, they are targeting critical infrastructure you fully anticipate should a crisis, hopefully one does not happen. should one happen and unfold beijing would seek to disrupt the operations of critical infrastructure. i was very intrigued by your discussion on sharing information with local, state, law enforcement and otherwise.

from the colonial incident until now, however we as a federal government specifically in the department of homeland security, can you give us your opinion of how we are sharing how the critical infrastructure private partners because most that is owned by private industry, are they ready for what is next sin that coloniall incident happened again? >> chairman, thank you for that question. i think the colonial incident not attributable to china highlights the catastrophic impact that can occur as a result of a potential attack against cyber critical infrastructure. the point is exactly right from what i've seen previously. i would anticipate as a crisis or conflict build the ccp will

seek to target critical infrastructure early on. this is the first move or advantage for the tools they seek to used to delay or potentially delay it. on information sharing i think the success i would point to i thought did a very good job bringing in oil and gas operators. and providing very specific detail on ccp cyber intrusion campaign what specifically they were targeting but equally important how they were doing it the techniques and procedures. but that is one sector the several different critical infrastructure sectors there are some very good intelligence information the communityha has they could provide weatherby to financial services, electric grids et cetera.

>> what is the impact we will look at the fact it transited and got to the atlantic ocean before it's shot down. what kind of message is that sending? what is the impact strategically? >> it is a terrific wake-up call. the vehicle could traverse american airspace for that long for you afforded the opportunity to collect that much information. now a balloon is up there around 12 miles. satellites are three to 50 miles. it is down in close where it hangs out for a long time. potential for collection is significant. so ideally the thing would've been taken down prior to hitting u.s. airspace. they exploited the scene. i don't think that will happen again. we have to talk to government officials about it. we do not know until he fully exploits what they could have gotten or what t they got.

but to me it's a very grave violation of our sovereignty. >> is something like that embolden the ccp? and reduce our deterrence? and what do we have to do to claw the back of it does? >> absolute anytime they were authoritarian regimes as o something of that nature and we do something about it. what can we get away with next? we have to close this gap we have to demonstrate credible capability, we can affect them in some way of our choosing pretty think that is something important to not have the capability but the will to do so by that time to deal with the regime of that nature. >> , let's turn to the precursors that china produces that are then used in the productionn of fentanyl for the connection between the cartels that are taking these products they are making fentanyl and eventually getting it to the united states. you talk to your opinion as

former intelligent expert on that flow, what the ccp and the cartels are doing. >> mr. chairman is a very important topic. the recent reporting over 100,000 people have died from fentanyl overdose. >> set us multiple times what happened in 911. it's probably on this except a. we can map the production of the precursors from china from mexico, to drug gangs to the american soil but it's clear the apparatus is t working hard to distract that. it takes a more than that to disrupt it. have to be preemptive effort which china doses process of

killing americans has to stop. >> thank you very much my time expires a chart yells back i recognize ranking member. >> thank you very much. in your testimony you wrote that while thehi evidence shows with efforts in the united states and other countries do not show evidence. we do not have as much data in the global south and the emerging markets. we know china is making big investments in many of these emerging countries for strategic reasons i think that's very important for our work here in congress. there's always a perennial debate on foreign aid why this is important and what this is to the united states? >> thank you sir.

so, when one thanks about how propaganda works, we have to think about why a target audience would ever believe it. if i o were to come in here and read a bit of chinese propaganda i would not, but if i were folks in this room would discount that information pretty significantly for the reason is they know it i is propaganda. thee effectiveness of such information or influence campaign rests upon the abilityo of targets to be able to understand that the political science test the actor giving the information does not have their best information at heart. that is component number one. an component number two is some baseline level of distrust of that targett state. in countries outside the united

states shares very close relationships with the baseline level of mistrust that is present in most of the u.s. public, present and these other countries which would then cause targets in this country into propaganda. >> thank you. especially when we look at things like access to minerals that are critical for our economy and other factors. those relationships with the global south are important. china certainly understands that. i question, chairman and i both in her opening statements were clear the chinese chemistry but is in authoritarian and democratic regime that's become increasingly aggressive. anti- asian hate globally would you agree, and anyone can weigh

in as well that it is important we combat anti- asian hate and all of its form. for a range of reasons for the fact against the chinese communist party ammunition to fuel their propaganda both in china and here at home. >> thank you ranking member. yes, absolutely. anti- asian racism has absolutely no place in american society but we can all agree on that. reasons why it's unacceptable. where the chinese communist party exploited. when chinese diplomats in the chinese states to call attention to these trends. so for example there is an report the chinese states issues on human rights in the united states. which often time calls out

broadly on specific on antiaging. this is clearly not about the chinese citizens, both in china or the united states. in the communist party regime. makes it very difficult and onto ther doctors points you have to do it very clear to say it all the time. i thought about chinese citizens. mostly importantly the departmet will use that against us at every single point spread is a double edge sword. the more we don't set the more the communist regime we don't set a mission is denial but it is real. >> i will close by saying this is yet another reason why it is important to focus on combining

the rise of racially motivated extremism to the homeland as well. thank you all very much for your testimony. >> a gentleman yieldsow not recognize. >> thank you chairman paid your capacity as a director of the national counterintelligence and security center of billion a year. we describe the impact that theft has on the everyday american like people back in myo district? >> to make this distinct, as i mentioned in my oral remarks real impact is about 4000 or $6000 per american family after taxes. it is a real cost to the american homeowner and family member per. >> in turkey so that number again apologize? >> bushing $4,006,000 per year for american per family for after taxes and with the

$500 billion in social property theft equals but those are known cases that's not a guesstimate. secondarily for the subcommittee those are not the real cost for the real cost for all the ip theft, manufacturing theft results in the cummins partyst f china building that same capability overseas. getting it to pat and global markets before we do in selling it back to the american people, the american public and corporations. multiple ceos have said to me it's not just a dollar value of ang product that has been stolen it's the manufacturing plants that are not built inn the u.s. not created they lost that patent radiation technology the cummins party of china with the global market first. >> what are some of the ways the u.s. government has worked to identify counterintelligence issues that threaten? >> i think there was a robust agendada probably starting in 25

and 16. we briefed thousands of ceos and industry about this threat. in from different sectors. as a direct impact on national interest have a robust capability to back to the home districts early and often to prevent it before it happened. >> thank you for your service, chairman i yield back as regards adjournment reels not recognize a jumper from california. >> thank you, mr. chairman. wanted to focus a little bit on

our back yard of the border. had a chance to go to el salvador a few years ago and heard china was looking to acquire, purchase, 80% of the coast and really build a deepwater port in that area. today i am really, really bothered the world's largest oil reserve in venezuela are essentially a venezuelan government, the government of venezuela has really close ties to russia, and to china. this is our backyard. it is my understanding we still have a good brand is south of the border. most countries, colombian cleated andll others, they like the brand of america, the american dream so to speak. again thinking about best defense been good offense, what do we do to make sure we keep

our backyard, our backyard secure. and not have these kinds of advances by other countries. >> i will start congressman i think there's some great issues in the panels will be look at south america specifically we can look as the collies mentioned subsequent to 9/11 concentrated on counterterrorism and we missed the boat of the influence of both russia and china and south america it influence twice because they provide critical infrastructure for free. they provide mobile phones to citizens of south american countries for free. the chinese invest a lot of money in america and have them beholding to their interest as well as washington did historically. i think we probably the skin when the policy link, have to be more aggressive with our brand in our capabilities and our investments in south america to

help us in the long run. >> to make the best medicines of the world, the best covid vaccine. we are essentially the breadbasket of the world. how can we use those assets to really project our presence in the backyard? lieutenant general? >> , that is a fantastic question in his absolutely a concern. chinese investment in countries around the world, especially when we are absence allows inroads for them to develop relationships. not just by what is immediately there but also future investments and other things. when it comes as a detriment to the u.s. homeland defense doesnt not stat at homees and starts overseas wh a credible capability we need to have but also with our allies and partners.

if wera become isolation list we see the terrain of the chinese were going to pay a price militarily. when he chinese and military comes into countries it allows them to start your train of the chinese develop relationships with the chinese. and it results in an inability to leverage the way we should. and so it's a very significant thing for us we need to look at that. one last point is armed sales. a lot of times we don't sell things a countries because we have issues with the country which is understandable. but sometimes they are going to buy it anyway. and when that happens is a choice between them buying chinese are buying american, sometimes we need to think maybe it's worth to buy american. >> general quite a challenge in here did you use the word absence? did you say that? >> or i may have absence? >> are you saying were not doing her job appear going overseas visiting people, being diplomats as members of congress, do we

need to do more of that? >> i think you're doing a great job. >> that's not the answer i'm looking for, sir. you just said something i want to make sure all of our members of congress understand exactly that is a great points. i want you to back it. we do need to shore faces around the world. we need to do that. i want to thank you for that comment.lu >> you are absolutely right. we do need to show our faces around the world for our military is has a lot of international engagement. we need that same engagement off other levels of government put our state does that forgetting outcome seen, under synchronous alleys and partner perspectives. the one big advantage the uss militarily is that we have a lot of friends out there. china does not enjoy that same thing but were going to lose ozment if we don't get out there engage those friends allows to base from their country they'll support us and back us up in international forms. >> thank you sir. chairman i yield too.

>> aen gentleman yields a no record as my good friend national secured expert someone who has been 20 plus years in the u.s. navy, mr. gonzalez from texas for. >> thank you chairman pretty much associate my comments with my good friend lou. hannah and i took a trip to central america went to guatemala, honduras and el salvador. one of the surprising things that i was not aware is no members of congress had visited that area in three years. so, to the point yes there is a military aspect of it. there is diplomatic b we try to sue the state department do more. up here in congress and a bipartisan manner we need to be doing more in our own backyard. many of us on this committee are committed to doing this and just that. my first question is for you, general. i just got back my trip from taiwan it's a second trip to taiwan in the past 14 months. i spent 20 years in the military

is my good friend pointed out our chairman pointed out. i know what war looks like. we are at war. this is a war. it may be a cold war but this is a war with china. with the people's republic of china every single day are invading taiwan being cyber space for it not only that but the question i have for you is your expertise in the air. i spent five years as an air crewman flying against china. i know exactly when they come out and intercept our aircraft. they are doing that every single day. there is a danger in that, right? everything is fine until there is an accident, a spark if you will that turns a cold war into a hot war. can you speak to some of the dangers in which playing this game of chicken brings up, in particular to taiwan? >> absolutely. china has demonstrated significant aggression in the

air by penetrating taiwanese airspace. it is a violation of taiwan sovereignty. and also when they are in the air they are professionalism is fnonexistent. they will quote dust us off if you will put one case we had a midair collision one of their aircraft in avp three. that is the nature of how they do business. what we can't do is watch them and let them get away with behavior like that and not do something back. and not be there with taiwan, not be present, not be out there and make them prospectus the way they are driving fear into the taiwanese with their aggression. >> thank you for that. my next question is for you, turning over to cyberspace. this is what war looks like that is the first aspect of it. in cyberspace there are no boundaries., there are no borders.

they are all in on this together. we also cannot go it alone you have to have allies. put together a bill the u.s./taiwan advance research act. it essentially creates a closer relationship and the cyberspace with our allies. can you just speak to that as far as how can we, how can the united states grow our relationship with others that let's say are not traditional relationships. yes we have our five eyes we've got those relationships we've had for a long time. but other places like taiwan, what are your thoughts on growing that and in particular in cyberspace? >> congressman first if i can go back to taiwan .3 thank you very much for visiting i had a chance to go there in january. on taiwan if i can say the arming is incredibly important. greater defensive capability it includes not just tangible weapons systems but the trading that goes along with it. i think there's much more capacity they are for increased training opportunities with

armed forces paid the other you raise on taiwan is every day they are in this cognitive disinformation or with china. and with the ccp so the more that we can do to help them and highlight or create transparency around the disinformation campaign is important. on the cyber front you're absolutely right on the allies. these are areas and this ties back into china's belt road initiative. they are doing a lot to try to get their infrastructure and make others more dependent on them for where that leads to its other countries, not only in their ability to surveillance steal data, but also they are advancing their techno- authoritarian norms and standards for their things we can do on the international front also building norms much more akin to how we see the world how we with the internet to be operated in dated to be protected in the chinese will. >> i think it's very clear to

point out the people's republic of china are the aggressor. i spentnt five years in iraq and afghanistan. germany has also been at war. it's safe to say we don't want war. we don't are going to stand firm with our allies and prevent thousand thank you chairman i yield back. >> gentleman yields a chair now recognize the gentle lady from nevada. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. before i asked my specific question i would like to say i agree to and also that was brought up by our last speaker that we need to do more. we doti more by investing more. china is investing all across i china. just for build out sri lanka. that's not going to be helpful in these difficult areas.

time to ask the question we just heard this week about china saying there is a potential conflict or confrontation if we do not put on the brakes. what does that mean for us? is it an existenial threat is it saber rattling, is that nuclear war? what does that mean? how should we be engaging that it what should we be doing in response besides showing up taiwan or trying to make these investments that seem to be fairly difficult to get people to support? anybody? >> i will start. our recent statement by the chinese minister is a false narrative that we need to put on the brakes. we should start asking them to minimize their aggression. not only here in the u.s. but there allies and friends around the world. they're really great at putting

us in the bucket as being the aggressorsn,. word from our distinguished congressmen in congress when that's not thehe case. i think we as the nine states diplomatically have to do a better job a more effective job making sure the world knows they are the aggressors. they have a great propaganda program as you heard they will use that to show us as the aggressors. >> in general, how would you compare the threat by china to our homeland threat, by domestic terrorists to china? if we are looking at where our priorities are? >> the threat sum is a grave threat we have faced in our lifetime, certainly against the cold war. the reason was given economic superpower that is stealing our technology that sleeping head on weapons, they can strike us right here in the homeland.

or deny overseas in defense of taiwan. if we let them continue at this pace and do not answer that we will find ourselves in a very uncomfortable position as americans to me the existenial threat posed by china and the ccp y is absolutely the largest threat to the u.s. we have to realize. they are approaching us with anything they can find any way it was a scene they exploited this 100 other seams that have been discussed here but assignment wake up it is a >> moment for us here and we need to realize that. >> continuing with this down the panel how about the chips act? elthey're not the enemy they are the w competitor. has this helped in any way to deal the problem we are making chips at home instead of being so dependent on them economically? >> one aspect on the chips act like the highlight is the

national security piece to it. when we look at 80 plus% of the worlds chips used from commercial to our weapons system, are manufactured withinr the first. we talked here about the military threat. we, the taiwan semi conductor facility, you need to look at building greater resiliency in our industrial bases and manufacturing capacities. that for me it was a big. >> a joy to add to that congressman? thank you congresswoman. to go back to your original question about the pathways by whichh we would be most likely o see chinese aggression, it is my view the most likely avenue would be over a taiwan scenario. if one thanks about how to deter that theres are two primary things in place of thete united states have. the first is a credible reassurance to beijing the

status quo will not change. because of beijing thanks it's backed into a corner and has to choose either losing taiwan are launching a very risky and low probability when at war it is quite possible one can imagine no choose the latter pray there's incredible reinsurance portion is important. the other portion of deterrence which relates to the chips act as the change of the balance of power. anotherr way terms could fail is over time shifts toward beijing's favor the probability they would win a conflict it's so important the industrial base through things like the chips act. >> i cannot see a clock is my time? just real quickly, is there anything specific we need to do next other than going on code

else? >> might the great chips and science act two things need to occur. that type of ed partners the u.s. government unit legislative body or funding with the corporate sector. the chips in science act must be protected now to development of new technologist if we do not protect it they are going to be having hearings in five years saying how to develop technology get stolen and anti- chinese, this two things can be true pre- >> thank you and the leges time has expired for the chair now recognizes her final question, mr. crane. >> general, this question is for you. a second ago your tongue but how you concerned about the aging of the fleet, is that correct? and also you were talking about how china continues to steal our intellectual properties is that correct as well? how do we stop that, general?

>> the theft of intellectual property is something that will be the only thing i can comment on. step one is realizing that it is happening. making sure not on the prime contractor but the subcontractor that develop our defense systems have the appropriate resiliency. the best way for us to counter china is to invest for the investments in the department of defense has made for the last 20 years could fight t the wars we have been and are not necessary the investments that are going to make it successful again steering with it. competitor like china. so it is important we transform our investment to the areas that most concerned that which is our ability to hold targets in their homeland and our ability to denying them theirhe objectives. and so we can deter them through punishment. we can also deter them through denial it happens by investment in the department and the domain that are most criticalpu facing.

>> thank you general permit next question is, a moment ago you were raving about the capabilities and dominance of the u.s. intelligence agency. probably everybody up here would agree how impressive our intelligence agencies are and have been over the years. my question for you, sir, are you where the lack of trust in our intelligence agencies by u.s. citizens? >> icongressman, yes i am. it is a concerning issue. >> yes. and o you are aware there is a select committee on the weaponization of the federal government appear right now? >> yes i'm aware of that. >> i represent some amazing people in arizona. rural arizona, they love this country where the most patriotic in i myself am a navy seal i joined the navy after 911 i served for 13 years and i love this country and i want our

intelligence agencies to be strong. i think they need to be strong for good reason. i'm going to tell you right now sir, when we read -- years after the fact 50 former national intelligence folks, several heads of the cia claim the hunter biden laptop is russian disinformation only to find out years later that we all knew it wasn't. that is alarming to a lot of americans. and it makes us lose trust in our intelligence agencies. and for me, why look at a guy like he was in everything you've done as intelligent as you are i know that's gotta piss you off. if there were 50 former navy seals out there lying to the americanha people and i found ot about it that would piss me off. because it undermines the community i hold so dear. i'm sure you have a similar endearment to your community, am i correct in assuming that? >> you are correct sir.

>> whenha you think we do about that sir? how do we regain the trust with the american people and our intelligence agency? >> congressman i think you bring up a very valid points. reach is the current events of today with our intelligence community. it also impacts the recruiting of future generations of women and men who want to serve in the u.s. government intelligence. that is the core element. two things have to happen number one has to be complete transparency p of things that he happened in the past but more importantly the great things men and women are doing we need to be more proactive getting out to your district and other districts on a local level. secondarily there has to be some transparency of what is real and not real with the narrative. that's the obligation of law enforcement intelligence agencies to be forth with our declassification and transparency of what's going on. >> real quick, if it seemed like

ii was coming after you today i apologize for that. it is nothing personal at all. i love this country and i am tired of losing faith and trust in then institutions and the organizations that as a little kid i aspired too and i upheld and i know i'm speaking for a lot of americans when i say that, okay question with the however a quick you said war with china was not searching can you expound on that a little and please tell us all how in your opinion we can avoid war with china? >> absolutely congressman. i want to say that causes our loss and there's things we as a nation can proactively do. for example continuing to invest in a strong defense and ensuring our forces are ready is a signal and a deterrent. making suren we invest in resilient network the ccp decided to launch an attack it

will have less effect on our networks in our infrastructure. superior technology former secretaryy of defense i work for would always say we never want to send our sons and daughters into warfare fight persk with technology we are very much at risksk of sending our sons and daughters superior technology and agility in terms of how we use that technology.nd then, ensuring that we have a network of allies and partners this isit a weakness to ccp has and we haven't sir with all of your service you know we fight coalition it's important to make sure our allies are with us. our partners are with us. >> thank you, yelled back. with some logistical changes to the chairman had to step s out. i'm going to ask unanimous consent ms. jackson lee to be recognized for five minutes. we are in trouble now. [laughter] f >> we are both freshmen so bear with us.

unanimous consent to quickly recognize ms. jackson lee. >> to both of the chairman the ranking member and very pleased to be able to join you from my perspective you are to distinguish members of congress and thank you for your service. thank, you for your military service. before i start because homeland security allow me too put on the record that to be able to beat china it's an extremely important we assert our democratic values the competitiveness maybe we will have an opportunity to get the answer to why it's public now all the personal data so many, membersem of congress have been breached i do not believe we have had any determination for

commercial foreign country. exposing private data members of the house and senate. the other responsibility of governing the nation. what you put that on the cocommittee's record assessing e situation. this is a very important hearing pretty want to begin by raising this question. i will have a second question and i will bee finished. i want to raise a question you have describe the evolution of chinese commas party thinking when it comes to china's role around the w world. you know in recent years the ccp has that aims they tolerate no diversity when they go into custody. they do not even use the indigenous people. in china is competing with the united states met global

veconstitution values. we have to win the world over by saying our values of trade and otherwise are much better than theirs. and so, how successful are china's efforts, what actions in the federalra government take to outcompete the chinese communist party? i also think of you interact with us you have benefited in your own country many of us so we pass the chips act, chips and science acts close to my heart is a former member of the science committee invest to an 80 billion, i'm excited about that. unfortunately these gentlemen here 90% of her friends on the other side of theor aisle did nt vote for. i know the probably working with it in their district. would you share that with me and i would love to have to answer that as well.

>> thank you congresswoman. these are really excellent questions i thank you for them. you raise the issue of difference of government values and i agree. i know we do have common interests if not common values. china and the united states want to see their population live a prosperous lives for example both sides to see the world address some of the challenges of global climate change. the two countries have stark differences in the way they see the relationship are simply not present there. it is true china indiscriminately or without the types of behavior the target

regime will invest in it. you mentioned road initiatives this is certainly one of the keystone portions of china's efforts. i do agree the nature of the regime and that target country iss quite important. we do have some researchre that suggests economic statecraft try to use us is less effective there is logic and they are of course it is a mechanism by which we can indirectly shape china's ability and the way you are describing. cox congressman if i could add china has a playbook of ports

with the go into countries where they go in the kick out the locals close that happening across the globe. we sit formally but the figure out howo do they bring their different tools of national power to the table to provide alternatives? some of the years we've been talking about today are on the technology front. i have a space background out offer as an example our commercial space innovation sector right now is phenomenal. using space a technology understand the climate, mapping, encountering illegal fishing this is soft power for americans. ways we leverage is newer

technology for coolly protecting and ensuring they do not fall into the hands of the ccp work with allies and partners across the globe who want to work with us in these areas. i'm figuring out ways to get these kind of information to them and opening up markets for our businesses are not just relying on. >> thank you also very much. or approach is a danger to the framework of democracy for this nation. use that power of our values and our technology. i like commercial space it is crucial, thank you for that framework.k. this is an important hearing i think a showman for yielding. and i yield back to the chairman. >> thank you ms. jackson late. i want to thank the witnesses for the valuable testimony and members for the question today.

i also want to thank the members of the subcommittee they may have some additional questions for the witnesses. we would ask the witnesses to respond to these in writing pursuant to these hearing record will be open for 10 days. without objection the subcommittee stance adjourned. >> he spent as your unfiltered view of governments, funded by these television companies and more including charter communication.

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