great. hello. my name is morgan and i'm an event manager at politics and pros and i'd like to welcome you all to pnp live. soon i will drop a link in the chat for where you can order a copy of surviving deep waters a legendary reporter story of overcoming poverty race violence and his mother's deepest secrets straight from pnp's website. you can ask our speakers a question today by clicking on the q&a button at the bottom of your screen and we'll try to get to as many of those as much as we can towards the end of the program, but we apologize in advance if we don't get to your question also, there are auto captions available for this

event by clicking on the live caption button at the bottom of your screen. let's introduce this afternoon's guests. bruce johnson recently retired from wwusa tv 9 also known as cbs in washington dc after serving 44 years as an anchor in reporter. he anchored the six o'clock news and the seven o'clock news broadcast called offscript with bruce johnson. bruce has won 22 emmys including the proceeded prestigious ted yates award, which is awarded only with a unanimous vote of the net the national academy of television arts and sciences board of governors. he has been included into the society of professional journalist hall of fame. the natas silver circle and the washington dc hall of fame. he was selected as the capital press clubs journalists of the year and chosen for the murrow award.

bruce's most prized awards are his community service and civic awards. which number in the hundreds? johnson will be in conversation with gordon peterson who brought four and a half decades of experience to cover. of coverage of news in the nation's capital peterson is an award-winning news anchor reporter writer and producer who's work has taken him across the globe from central america to europe asia in the middle east for 25 years peterson served as a moderator and executive producer of the political round table inside washington, which was broadcast in washington dc and many other major television markets from coast to coast. from november of 2004 until december 31st 2014 peterson was the senior correspondent in anchor of abc 7/wjla-tv's news at 6 o'clock pm prior to that. he had worked at washington dc's

wusa tv9 for 35 years as an anchor at of the six o'clock and 11 o'clock pm news broadcast. let's give our guests a virtual round of applause. hey gordo. hi bros. great to see you there. let me begin by talking about you. you might leave the room. i don't embarrass you, but bruce johnson's book surviving deep waters is a great american story. i love this book by great american journalist. this is a story of a man one and two a very limited circumstances in segregated, louisville, kentucky. a man who's the courage and drive and ability and intelligence took him to the top of an extremely challenging profession. despite many obstacles that society had placed in his path full disclosure bruce and i worked together for nearly three decades. we've been friends for more than four and a half decades first on

rose the title surviving deep waters. where's that come from? what does it mean? well you fail to mention also that you are one of the most respected journalists in in the history of this country. i i consider you a mentor and one of my closest friends. so let's get that out of the way for purposes to pull disclosure the title surviving deep waters. it comes from way back when i was a child. we we had left the projects my mom it married to my stepfather and we had a house not far from chickasaw park chickasaw park bordered the ohio river we would go down to the park where everybody gathered whether you were poor from the projects or whatever doctors lawyers bankers or whatever all black all african-americans segregated, louisville, kentucky at the time. so we go to chickasaw park down to the ohio river and us kids with swing on the branches of the trees out over the ohio river and we would drop like rocks into the current and

that's that's how i wrote it and then we dog paddle we call a dog. like we dog paddle too short because none of us had learned to swim. so that was surviving deep waters and needless to say that was the beginning. there'd been a lot of deep waters and the key was to get through it and get out of it and and not just me but a lot of the people around me. okay, i love that. you know you write my stories never been just about me. this african-americans been carrying the aspirations of a mother a grandmother an entire communities of black folk. they had done the heavy lifting before i was born. i would love to have known your mother mary and your great-grandmother millie bell. tell us about them. you would have two incredibly strong women my mother after raising. eight kids mostly, you know by herself being the person a family to graduate high school my mother at age 52 got her undergrad degree from the university of louisville.

my great-grandmother a grandma. millie is what we call her was even more impressive. she was born to slaves and then subsequently former slaves in a small town called pembroke, kentucky. that's near the tennessee line a place. i'd never been before a place. i never heard of until my mom told me about it really somehow made her way to louisville, kentucky and her daughter ivory was my mother's mom. she left at a very early age and so millie was left to raise my mom to raise her grandchild and they was so poor at times they lived in an alley behind floyd street in the cities east end. they were so poor that when they move into a place they didn't bother to unpack because they knew they wouldn't be staying there long. they would go to the nearby railroad tracks and they were waiting for the trains to come by they would scoop up the fruit and vegetables. cost off of the trains and they would take their dinner home. that's not poor they were you know if anything i've learned over the past 50 60 years

covering news here and elsewhere. that if a kid has a chance to survive he needs at least one he or she needs at least one caring adult in its life. and in that since you're very lucky. yeah, you were inducted into the university of kentucky's journalism hall of fame. i think in 2020, right? but until 19 no there were three tv stations in louisville, right your hometown. yeah when i was coming here until 1968 there no black news reporters on the air, right? absolutely, right when i was a kid my mom would take me to her job when she was 20 years old 21 years old is a domestic for this rich white family lived in saint matthews outside of louisville, and i would sit there in the basements while she's bringing up frozen food and laundry and you know doing that sort of thing and i'm watching those three black tv stations you're talking about and i say black they were black and white td stations, and i don't see anybody on that screen that looks like me. i don't think about it the time but i'm being socialized. i'm watching leave it to beaver

knows best superman all white heroes all white men in charge great fathers had all the answers, you know how to love their women their children that sort of thing and i'm thinking that's my world too. it's not until later on that you realize well, not really not really and all right. 1972 along comes bruce johnson and a remarkable broadcast journalist named l. shuttlecock hires you to work at wcpo, cincinnati. what did he pay you? i don't remember maybe maybe a hundred fifty dollars a week maybe to start might have been less than i don't remember. it wasn't a lot. it wasn't a lot. oh, i'm sorry good. it was seven the book you said was 7500 bucks a year. yeah. yeah. yeah. okay. that's all right, honey. go get this. he was expanding his news

operation. i had done some some broadcasting in undergrad school. okay some basketball games or whatever and he kind of like the way i looked the way i presented myself that sort of thing. he was expanding his news operation. i was only black lady hired and i became the only black in his newsroom photographer isn't writers. no nothing but me any higher two white women, so we were the beginning we didn't take anybody's jobs. we were the beginning but i got a chance to watch this guy as a news reporter incredible journalist. he had an eighth grade education. he started out as a copy boy in a job that he reminded me was only reserved for young white guys. okay, i couldn't have applied for a job like that, but he never said it to me. we never had one of those heart to heart talks about that kind of thing. but yeah, i mean, he apparently saw something in me and i certainly saw a lot of him. i it to be in our shadow party. yeah, but you know, so you're the only black employee in the newsroom. did you feel isolated? did you feel you had to adjust

your behavior in some way or chorus, of course and you know, i tell people about time even in this book in my case. it's about journalism, but this could have been about medicine it could been about education could have been about law could have been about business a lot of people who look like people going through this sort of thing at this same time, you know after 1968. yeah. it was very lonely. you have any mentors a lot of times you're asking is it me or is it them and sometimes it was both you laughed it races jokes that were funny. i i write that i don't ever recall going to a company picnic or being invited to you know christmas party company christmas party. yeah, you kind of realize that afterwards and then when you go out on stories also, you know, it's a very isolating situation, you know, the big stories are going to the bedroom reporters who happen to be white guys, but and also had a guy once tell me alan white and this might have been the most important thing. i heard while i was in cincinnati bruce. you can't write you may never be

a writer. i wanted to cry or let loose at one of those childish f you kind of things and gotten myself fired, but i didn't have a backup plan. i didn't have anywhere else to go so i came back the next day after the whole newsroom had heard that and i started going through the trash can you know picking up the scripts? you know that others had written and left and i started practicing and practicing and practicing and without shadow coty gave a script back to me without saying you got to do that over. i'm like bam i can do this. i can do this and i can't believe they're paying us to get into other people's business. it's like journalism bounce me loved it. it's interesting. you mentioned the writing now you've been blessed with the women in your life. including your wife. lauries little great friend of mine, but you've also been very lucky with your next boss as well of the shuttlecock and jim snyder was all about writing. he hired your channel 9. i think in 1976 right hides of

mars bad day for julius caesar great day for me. yes and and you know, so you and i was students at what pat collins who's now over channel 4, but work for jim tonight. he called that the gym snyder school of journalism. here tell us about the big guy about jim snyder. first jim snyder said years later when somebody asked him, what's your biggest accomplishment at channel 9 and he said well it really too turning pat collins and bruce johnson into television reporters. he told me that but a taskmaster i mean in shadow coty. you know was the phd program jim jim snyder was the post post phd program his favorite line to me was did you get away that in cincinnati? just and keep in mind. i was kind of like one of the last pieces of this incredible teeny to put together.

i mean you and max robinson is anchors jc hayward maureen bunyan glen brenner came at about about the time. i did andrea mitchell who still would nbc susan king bob strickland. wow. it was like an all-star team. i had to find my place, but before i got fired, you know because you had to be good he would let you go. and so i thought i died and going to journalism have the diversity the skill the the different socioeconomic backgrounds. i mean what a team and jim said it was there every day. i loved him and beard him at the same time. i was so afraid of jim cider early on. probably until he left i used to watch my scripts from the lobby five floors down from the newsroom so i could go home and not have to pass by his office. this is your story not mine, but i got it was a piece of coffee. see said did you write this?

i'm thinking it's pretty good. then i realized he's holding it up like it's a dead fish this to me. what in the name of god was going through your mind when you wrote that glenn brenner said to be one day. she we had a lot of fun people should know that he said i can't believe we're getting paid to do this stuff. oh, yeah. yeah. yeah and when you win it's a lot of fun when you win and we were winning. i mean big time that you know, the mayors would hold up press conferences if we were late. i always got the person the last question, you know in the streets people would stop and you before and after the story. and they want to know about your colleagues. they want to know about you. they want to know about max. they want to know about our photographers and and the photography. i mean god, they they were the globe products, you know, the business they were just great and reminded us every day that i'd be you know, bruce you'd be nothing without me. i mean if i if i heard that from one photographer i heard it from all of them.

they were they made us. i mean, that's a truth. they were more the photographers. they were producers. they were just and also great journalists. let me a couple of stories. i don't want to run out of time here. one of them was your story about trying to hail a cab in dc while black. i just i remember that to this day and and your technique was remarkable. can you us about that? well, i was coming from one of my sons. you know a little football games and i was coming through georgetown and i had to anchor the weekend news, so i was only going maybe six seven blocks up to the station and i couldn't get a cab to stop, you know kept held in the cab. i get you know, was it me and you know what it was and then you know, i started hearing from people that black guys can't get a cab in dc. okay, and it's a lot of instances black women can't get a cab in dc so and that's how you get a lot of stories. i mean you're out there and in the streets be curious don't have to be brave which got to be curious. and so what i basically did with was get some of the cities

really high end black people kevin cave as he was drop dead handsome impeccably dressed in a suit and tie every day putting the ward 7 councilman put him on the street to try and get a cat. he couldn't get a cat the former commissioner the dc cap association karen. i'm getting her last name herbert. i think it was you put her on the streets, you know to try and get a cab and she couldn't get a cat and and we're rolling on. live, you know right in front of the national gallery of art. i have one black eye on the corner and a white co-worker right behind him both in camera frame the cab driver stops with the black guy. he tells him he's going to southeast dc. he says not going there and he starts so you told me not going there, but then he goes and picks up the white guy. where are you going get in and he was alive on live television. i mean and that was still going on years after we did when all kind of awards and you know, the the city chains the rules and made stiffer penalties for cab drivers, but 10 years later

another station did the same same five-part series in one and incredible amount of award. so it was still going on. right other story i want to mention because i remember this one very well is your reporting during the cocaine epidemic? you convinced a young man to show you his his gun. i mean that was embassy amazing exchange you had with this this kid. tell us about that. well, i was working with kevin king dc native great photographer. great friend, and this is what we did, you know during those days we were coming crack and every day it's a homicide there's violence and it takes a personal toll on you also, but that day we wanted something other than a dead body. we wanted somebody alive who could explain to us. what is like living there and going through this and we riding around in southeast and we saw this building had these young guys hanging out of the windows been doorways. we know immediately what it was they were selling crack. gordon these guys couldn't have

been over 13 14 15 years of age. okay. i knew also that these guys were probably packed packing, you know, carrying guns because everybody was carrying a gun during those days was it was violent dodge city dc was a murder capital of the world back then so i said to the guys as they approached us. look i'm just a news guy, you know, we're not here to do police work, but i need to show how violence it is. and so i'll fast forward and and i asked him if they'd be willing, you know to show me a garlic to carrying one and then i'd get out of there and stop interrupting commerce. those are the words i use they know exactly what i was talking about. and so they huddled up and came back over and the guy in charge says he'll do it and the guy who couldn't have been over 125 or 30 pounds soaking wet pulls up his shirt and shows us his good. it was a revolver. it wasn't similar automatic and he explained why he had to carry that gun. wow selling drugs and you know, how'd you get the gun? well, i got it from a pipid. would you give the pipette gave him crack? are you afraid out here?

of course? i'm afraid. he says police are out here armed and they're afraid and that was it, you know, and and that brought it home. it didn't end anything on the violence. continue quite some time after that, but that that kind of demonstrated again. it's not that we were brave. we're just curious, you know, trying to explain trying to to understand what's going on out there. you know. now let's talk about marion barry. mayor marian berry. nobody was tougher on marion barry than bruce johnson. i remember that very clearly. you never pulled your punches and yet you were the only reporter invited to speak at mary and barry's funeral, which is a tribute to you and to him tell us about mary and various. well, i i think i'm not sure that i was the toughest guy on marionberry, but i was tough because that was my job. i was supposed to be tough like he had his expectations and objectives and and what people wanted from the mayor and and i was the news man and i had a job

to do and mary was the news back then very very was the story that i was always after number one. it was exciting. he was incredible figure to cover. you never knew what was gonna happen and he was always operating by day in the lines and by night outside of the lines. let me just leave it at that and he knew you know that i was after scoop the story and often it's the story. he didn't want to tell and sometimes it became hilarious. i had to teach him. what off the record meant, okay, because he would like to engage in conversation about these stories, but he would tell you great stuff in my opinion great stuff toward the story and they need say afterwards that's off to record. i'm like, no it isn't you have to say it's off the record before we started talk. i'll give you a real short example and i use it in the book. i mean, so mary berry is holding a press conference because he's trying to stop the dc council from taking away the funds for this a mental health facility in

anacostia, and i'm like, okay, it's good story, you know marion very doing what the people expect him. and on the way out. he says bruce you guys second. i need to tell you something. okay. he's a senior photographer away, which is a sign. okay whether we have here and what does he say? he says well, i haven't paid my taxes and the us attorney is investigating and you're probably gonna hear about that. so i want want you to hear from me. like are you serious? you haven't paid your taxes, but how long and i said well that trump's the other thing you're doing here. i mean, i got to report that i can't act like you didn't say that and he thought for a second then he looks of and he says well, i'll tell you what put the two stories together, you know how to do that. and happy he wrote the story. i mean he was right the lead is he's been investigated, you know about the attorney's office. they're not paying his taxes. we found him we caught him. well, he's holding this press conference trying to say this mental health facility. and that was mary and barry. i don't think he helped grudges.

i think i think he respected me. i think he wanted to be friends with me. i mean hell i wanted to be friends with it. we just couldn't be friends. okay, we're like, you know way and and i think that's why he picked me to or allowed me or whatever you want to use it to speak in his funeral. i was like the guy but couldn't help but like it this guy you want guys, i know too he knew everything about the city's budget line items. he could talk about the city's budget. you know, yeah, i i don't again i have to keep moving because we don't have a lot how you have 22 emmys among your other awards is morgan mentioned, but i'm wondering how many ulcers you've caused management over the years fighting for the stories you wanted to cover because great reporters never take no for an answer. they never you know, nobody says to a gravity. no, you can't cover that. you know harry's gonna cover that. nobody. nobody thinks that answer, you know, because the headline is going to be oh news reporter

fired for covering news. i don't think so. tell me about the troubles with management. okay, good. this is coming from a guy who the news direct is trying to get you to cover some story about the last david nash is going to be aired and there's a big story going on and you decided on your own you're gonna read that page one one big story. anyway you you've got as many officers as i have but i mean, that's what we do. that's the cloth that we're cut from. you know, you're fighting for the best story, you know, and it's amazing. i'm thinking all day long and i've been thinking for the past several days about our brothers and sisters who are in ukraine right now covering this war. that's who we are. that's and every one of them, you know came up just like we do i i can't tell you how many times maybe you can't i have said f you to somebody not meaning it in terms of harm, but just kind of like i'm serious about this listen to me, you know, i don't have to be right

but at least consider what i'm saying before you say no and my kids used to say all the time that have you ever do you have a customer on the air if you like no and they can't believe that i haven't been caught slipping up saying something if even if it's a serious is at you on the air, let me i just want to know for the record then among the challenges you overcome. we're near a fatal heart attack in 1992 cancer in 2018. and another thing great reporters have is court spa a lot of that and to me what's for is running a marathon after heart attack. bruce johnson random marine corps marathon after the heart attack. i just want that under the record. okay. it was it was some time after the heart attack not not days

and what okay. all right. yeah. anyway, you mentioned how the we're blessed with a great photographers. we've had over the years and producers. i i we can't name them all you did you name them all in your book and i'm grateful for that, but you begin the book by telling how you and photographer great guys get a shot of the woman in fbi custody after the mary and mary drug us. um, tell us about that. that's that's it to be a very beginning of your book. okay, if you take everything that we've been talking about in terms of what makes us who we are. i mean it all came together in in parking lot of that hotel in northern virginia the fbi, you know, they've been on marion barry's trail for the longest time, you know for you know, mid the allegations of a womanizing drugs and you know in corruption all that kind of stuff and so they got him at the vista hotel. okay smoking fbi provided crack. okay. everybody knows that again, you know how we are we're looking to go beyond that. okay.

everybody's got that story. how did they get this guy? how did they get married? so got some, you know, really good information that they were stashing rashida more at this hotel in northern virginia. they didn't trust putting her anywhere in washington. they don't want the media finding out. they didn't want metropolitan police finding out even though some of them were working on task force. so anyway got a tip and so we're there in we were led to the parking lot, you know this hotel and we're looking you know jody small, you know was my production assistant. greg geisse was the photographer and we're looking, you know, because we know we're there and you know, i i got another tip while we were there that they're moving her. they're moving her and i don't know if it's because they saw us in the parking lot, whatever but here she comes here comes this this whole woman dressed in black very striking, you know with his hat and jody called out her name, you know, rashida, you know and rashida term for a second. so the fbi guy is telling me get

the app out of here, you know, fbi and you know, i lost my mind there gordon for about 30 seconds. i'm like, i don't care. i need this shot, you know, and and so i had to stand behind the fbi car while greg guys ran from the other end of the parking lot to get the shot with slow it down slow-mo that night which added to the effect but no no we we were gonna get that shot or you know, this this report is about to be run over or locked up or whatever. i mentioned hotspot. you said to the fbi agent. it's normally some identification. how do i know your fbi? the guy's got his hand on. you you say in your book and i love this quote. i love the streets and the people in the streets the ex-offender who was robbed at gunpoint while operating as food truck. the man who graduated from howard university law school while homeless who showed me how

he negotiated the streets the shelters and the soup lines great stuff, but that was your career in washington in the street. it's it's you know, i i found a lot of those stories people gave me those stories and those stories perpetuate, you know, people see what you do and they you don't judge. you know, that that's the main thing i try to say to reporters and especially young reporters if you don't judge if you allow people to tell you who they are and what they're about and what their values are and what their dreams are you come away with some great stories, you know, when things that really bothers me and i talk to young people about this all the time don't write your story before you get there. don't allow a producer or somebody in your shop to write a story and you go out and get the sound bites that that they insert into that story be able if you can it's very hard for young reporters today because they've got so much to do hang around after the the yellow tape is rolled up, you know where you can really talk to people about

their lives, you know, and how they make ends meet and what their values are and what they what they make of this what you just saw. is it the same thing they saw are no they're familiar with it. they know what's going on. and you know what later on they're gonna call and tell you gordon. i've never had a mother tell me after her son or daughter was shot and killed in the streets. no, you can't have a picture of my child. no, they give me a picture of the child because i say to them. i don't want police to tell this whole story. i know the police side of the story. you tell me about your child, you know the dreams he aspirations you had for this person and and they always did always did you know, which just let it you know, really incredible stuff. you know, you know that over the years. many corporations are buying up local television stations and they decided they didn't want to investigate invest in in beat reporters or investigated reporters. and when you consider that

newspapers die in all over the country you wondering who's going to cover city hall the way bruce johnson did? i don't know because they discovered a long time ago corporations that television stations and newsrooms or cash cows. i mean when they're only a few stations like you say we were making all the money because the advertised new where to go to get people. they were watching us do our jobs every night. but then the corporations are treating us like divisions of the corporation. what's the bottom line here bad investigative reports. we really want to spend that much. how many times is he on the air that report? well, he's just a reporter how much you want to pay johnson really? anchor guys. do we really want to pay that kind of money for for a guy sitting there reading the news? okay. i know he does interviews. i know he goes out into the streets so they decided the answer was it was a resounding no, and then they're getting competition, you know, obviously from social media. so today's report is fast forward these young people have to come up with the story and

sometimes stories handed to them. they have to shoot story. they have to edit the story. they have to go front the story, you know chances are in a live shot and then they have to feed social media. okay, and so they don't have time to stick around to get the back story the next story or to plan a see, you know for a possible future connection a source and and they get frustrated because they came in with the same dreams and aspirations that we came in with and they're not getting the same deals that we got. yeah, and maybe they're doing it off a lot less money. so so i feel for them. i i which is why every time my phone rings the one of these young reporters. i talk to them. i'm not talked to three or four young reporters, you know today the book helps because my thing this is the book that i wish is there when i came into the business, you know, it will help them. hopefully it will encourage that and and we talk about stories and how to cover, you know stories. let's talk about the tv news business and how it's changing in the context of the pandemic.

in the context of the black lives matter demonstrations in the context of the insurrection at the capitol on january 6th. what was your reaction to watching the coverage of those stories? whoa, okay. let's start with the insurrection of the capital. okay. i had just quote retired, you know, and so i'm saying they're watching it like everybody else and i'm fuming and and i'm not only upset you know with people you you know, they're going into the capital and biting with law enforcement and and hurting then and, you know one case, you know, at least one case, you know, killing an officer or hurting to the point where they die i'm upset. with journalism that day i'm not gonna say journalists what would journalism that day? because we really weren't there. it's kind of like we turned the cameras on and let the cameras tell us and show us what was going on and we have people sitting on the anchor desk and the seeds and they're watching it and real time like we are at

home and telling us what they think is going on those photographers. you've named and one photographer that i forgot to mention in the book and i'm gonna mention right now, it's rick armstrong, but those same channel not photographers would have been inside the building because that's where the news was. they would have been using their iphones. we can go live five six different ways with our iphones. okay, they take great hd and beyond pictures they're better than those big cameras. we used to use. all right guys would have been in there our guys who look like the guys that were going into the capital would have been in there and they would have been telling us a lot what's going on. it wouldn't have been guessing. it wouldn't have been allowing, you know, the instigators insurrection is to tell us what's going on. so and even after that we didn't quickly follow these guys home, you know after law enforcement and national guard escorted. the insurrection is out of the building like, you know, this way this way, let's go. let's go most of them not in cops. we didn't follow them back home to wherever they came from. he's in their living rooms the front yards over the fence to find out you know, what is it

about this country that has you so -- and that is the question that i still have today that i i still don't have an answer for that. good question. what about black lives matter the way that was covered. i mean, you know, you hear certain members of congress will talk about the violence and so forth, but it was most of it was not violent. yeah, here's how it was often reported the the peaceful demonstrations turned violent, and i'm like, no they didn't those are two different demonstrations. they're the peaceful people who came to to make their point to petition the government and let you know that there have to be some changes with with these bad cops. and then there were the people that came there to raise out to cause problems. okay? i don't know how the organizes the black lives matter expected to control the rioters you show up to ryan. but anyway, a lot of new

reporters covering the black lives matter demonstrations after george floyd was killed and that was the latest killing. so i think we're prepared for some of what was going on the streets. we were all quarantined in our homes. i'm broadcasting live from the dining room and i'm looking out and i write about this and i know that that since trayvon martin, you know black people and young people have been margie and progressives have been what marching alongside

them to protest the police violence and escalating police violence, but what was different about this is you had all these white people out there marching and that was actually the new part of the story. i saw some young reporters actually go past the white people the interview black people again, i guess they're still looking for clergy and that sort of thing, you know, the old stereotype. where i had to say to some of my people stop the white people ask them why they're risking their health during the pandemic to be out there and because they were incense, you know, they they get it. they saw it. there was no wiggle room as my one of my young white neighbor said you couldn't help but being sensed by this and they went down, you know to black lives matter class today black lives matter signs, you know in the yard, but the other thing and if once down the book to the young people who make a black lives matter understand that that there's push back every movement we had like this historically, okay, and whether it be reconstruction whether it be the election of barack obama, there's always this undercurrent and it's it's it's been here almost immediately since those times a lot of it's in the book not gonna, you know, waste your time with that, but it's just a warning you know that you're gonna get a lot and thank you like lives matter. you're gonna get a lot of what what you've asked for, but you won't get nearly. you know what you deserve. it just hasn't happened yet. you know when you and i were coming along they were just three networks and great local newspapers control the flow of information. now anybody with an iphone or a laptop can find a bullhorn or a podium on social media and did basically people don't agree on facts anymore. we've got this politics of fear and resentment and anger and

cognitive dissonance and my facts are not necessarily effects. you know, i say the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and somebody else says oh, no just the opposite. it's a tough time to be a journalist. yeah. tough time is also a good time that that everybody's got these cameras and these iphones, you know, and because of not you know, george floyd would go on and on and on we wouldn't have those images and and i just can't believe that that we would have had the same outcome with george floyd if it hadn't been for the video tape and etc, etc. we can go on and on but i i hear you and i feel the same thing. i think it's dangerous. it's same thing. it's one thing for you to have your set of facts and be able to argue your point with your set of facts and you're well researched information. it's another thing though for you to lie. look, you know just look me in the face and lie, and that's what we've had and journalism didn't know what to do with laws, you know, especially when they were coming from people in authority people with rank

people with positions because they their thing was well objective reporting means you take my side of the story and they're a side of the story and my side of the story happens to be this this information. okay journalism didn't know what to do with this miss information. so what do we have fast forward today? we spent a lot of our time dealing just with miss information how resources that taking i i think way too much we need to get back to some of those things we were talking about. covering real issues, you know facts and things that matter to people i don't want to leave before and before before i ask about this because you once said to me something that has stayed with me ever since and this several years ago. you once said to me that we meaning african americans are the most forgiving people on earth. and if you walk through the national museum of african american history or cultured downtown or the civil rights museum with a lorraine motel where dr. martin luther king, dr. martin luther king was

killed. that journey will confirm the truth of what you said. where do we go from here on this? um, i i think we first recognize. okay. first off to white people you got to recognize that we understand it's painful to talk about this. we've been in pain for a long time. okay over this and we don't enjoy talking about this. we'd like to get the point where we don't have to talk about this this anymore, but it continues. okay, so you may have to walk through the pain. it's not like anybody's trying to hurt you. okay, but but give us that you want to talk about american history. let's go back and tell the whole story. okay, let's not just give us a month that we're coming out of let's go back. tell the whole story. okay, that's one thing the other thing i would say though to black people and progressives and say this in the book. maybe we shouldn't.

come out of our feelings all the time. okay, if it's about our feelings all the time will never you know, move forward and out of this this sense of hurt and what's been done to us and that that's what i mean when i say in the book that i don't have the right to carry a resentment because my mother and grandmother, you know an ancestors, you know, they may have had the right and they're not asking me just to still be mired in in those kind of feelings.

they're asking me to carry on. i mean that's my job. they had paid my fair and so that's what i need to do. okay. i i need to tell the stories that they couldn't tell i need to tell their story. well, it seems to me when it comes to civil rights equal rights human rights. it's like walking up the down escalator if you don't keep moving going to end up right down at the end getting all chewed up way it began morgan. did you have a question for us? yes, we have actually a lot of audience questions and here for for you both. actually. let's start with chris christie blackman. she says it's great to see both bruce and gordon of i grew up watching both of you quite the question is do you find yourself critiquing the news when watching now that you're retired or find yourself wanting to know more with the world events? gorda i read more than i watch to be honest with you. i i that's another thing about the new media. there's so many interesting websites and you can cover so much more territory when you read and i unfortunately i i don't watch i i don't want to indict anybody, but i i don't

need to see whether every five minutes. you know what i mean? i can look outside and figure out it's raining. europe bruce. yeah, and maybe this house supposed to be you know, we evolved. okay. here's one of the things i say to young journalists because it's up to them to hold our injuries. we've got a lot more options now, we don't we don't have to tune in watch anybody at night or the whole broadcast. i tell young journalists your number one job when you arrive on a story or when you go in front of that camera, i don't care if you're the anchor or the reporter don't waste my time. give me a reason to continue to watch you. don't waste my time with information that i can easily find on my iphone. it's kind of like, what do i need you for and you can ask yourself. when what would i be missing if you weren't standing there in front of the camera and if the answer is nothing you're wasting my time. all right. next question. kershana dean asked.

can you describe one of the hardest stories you've covered as a reporter in dc? quick question for me it's nothing muslims the cumulative thing with would be the hope crack, you know epidemic because it was every day. it was non-stop. it wears you down and if it wears us down, imagine what it's doing to families and communities and that's what i think. but if i just throw out one story it would have to be the garrison twins and they're in the book. i in the crack chapter talking about lamont lawrence garrison who graduate from howard university after six years with degrees in political science. the plan was go to law school, but that summer, you know dea agents kick down their door in the trinidad section where they live with their mother they're on grandmother and arrested them for being part of a crack cocaine drug conspiracy. they profess their innocence professors from howard march down, you know from the campus

over to the courthouse in northern virginia where they would try and it didn't help them. they refuse to separate their case from the dependence most of who they didn't even know. okay, and so lamont and lawrence ended up doing a lot of time in prison. okay, and i can tell you more than that, but that that is the story that will always be with me. um, let's skip to a little bit of advice show washington asks any recommendations for young people in it in the media lots of diverse faces, but many feel expendable funding at many stations lacking etc. gordon now, how would you answer that and i'm not sure. i understand the question which is could you repeat it, please? yeah, sure any recommendations? for diverse faces funding at

many cable stations are lacking and i guess you can keep naming some of the issues. you know, it's it's at the point. you're almost have to be an entrepreneur. i think if you're a young person coming along and you could start a podcast at this point you could you could start your own website. if you can get on if you can get on with a a reputable station or a reputable news outlet, that's fine. i mentioned before that the newspapers are shruggling up which is which is great tragedy for this country. you know, we're almost gonna have to make it up as we go along because right at the beginning of this book, there's there's something i want to read. it says at a time in our history and newspapers are dying all over the country when many radio stations are building audiences by embracing alternative realities and when more and more

local tv stations are in the hands of corporate entities devoted to increasing margins of profit who will cover city hall. whoever they are wherever they are on social media or standing on street corners with megaphones bruce johnson is their model agree with every word of that. because you wrote that. oh, and i appreciate that. i think you absolutely right young people. don't limit yourself. okay, it kind of reminds me in the old days, you know, our parents would graduate or come out of high school and they go to work in the post office and they would work in the post office 25 30 years. and so they retired and got that pension, which everybody wanted you don't have to be limited. don't strap yourself with such low expectations. go start your own, you know television operation youtube you can start an operation. free you've got the camera you can go live and young people are doing this by the way, too go do your own thing and do it while

you're young do it while you young me and make your mistakes get it out of your system and you know for a lot of young people you will find also that maybe you're not gonna have to be a reporter and that's okay. there are many other things you can do with the same training that you've got in journalism and communication schools. yeah, i we don't know how this thing's gonna shake up because we're in the very early stages of it right now how it's going to shake out i mean this question comes industrial revolution what we're going through in terms of communications? no. this next question comes from robert lange says bruce and gordon since you both were reported on the street and anchored in the studio. let me ask you for advice. i find i've react emotionally to stories more when i'm in the studio when i'm in the field. my focus has always been getting to the story and getting on air. my emotions are in a box. i'll find out i find when i'm especially alive event emotions. sometimes take over. does this happen to you both and how do you deal with it?

detachment you have to you almost have to be cold blooded at times and and get yourself out of the store. it's hard it really especially the kind of stuff bruce covered for years, but we we really have to stand back and and not become part of the story. it's because it's not our story. it's it's it's your story the story of the person's going through this thing whether the family has been subjected subjected to a tragedy or interview talking about political corruption and so forth. we're not on soap operas. we're not down on the boston common haranguing people with it. i just tell you what's going on tell you how many cars in a six car accident basically. like that? yeah. no. no, i i totally agree. there are there are presenters and some people very good at that, you know running a story so to speak, you know, you know, they they've got the gift, you know the boys to look and that sort of thing and then there are

the others, you know, and i'm not saying it can't be both then they're the others that are about the journalism. okay, and and for those of us who were about the journalism the payoff was that people started recognizing your work and you became your work they knew you'd get the extra sound by they need to go, you know, the extra length to get the detail and they knew that when you appeared in front of the camera that you wouldn't be wasting their time you weren't there just to say look at me and what i'm wearing today you would you were there and it was it was a service job. okay. it was a service. i mean we were fortunate enough to have these jobs for all these years. you know. and it's it's the other thing is i want to mention it's a great privilege to be able to do this. absolutely. absolutely. we have a responsibility into the people. we're talking to to be as honest as we can and to be as forthritis again. and we just you know.

you just don't make it up. that's all you know and part of that. honestly. sometimes was saying saying to a colleague that you had become friends with and you saw struggling, you know when they were shown the door because people got fired in this business. i mean, it's a very competitive business you had to bring something you had to hold your own and that's one of the reasons i i equated to professional sports you get a high draft pick, you know, but every season you got to go out there and deliver and and those that didn't deliver. i mean we're showing the door and it was a good thing at some point because you got to go on and do something else that that you really want to do and somebody who really wanted and deserve that slot got that slot. you know a few years ago. i asked a political person i admired very much a very hard question, and he didn't talk to me for a year after that and i felt bad about it, but i didn't feel bad about the question because it was a fair question

and that's something that goes with territory sometimes, you know. i'm not here to i'm not here to sell your your line pal. i'm here to find out what's going on in your head that kind of stuff. so. this next question comes from a sherry mangle thompson says i run i remember as a child my dad coming home after working as your cameraman during the dc rides in the 1960s as a child. i was afraid for you all. how did you both handle going home to your family families after such stressful and dangerous days on the job. well purposes full disclosure. i didn't cover. the rise of the 60s. i was in the riots of the 60s. okay and louisville at the time the right it's happened blocks from my house and i was in the streets national guard at this end. you know the masses that this in young people we're here and i i didn't throw a brick.

i didn't seal anything, but i took it all in i took it all in and i write about that too, you know in my understanding of it, but i've certainly covered riots, you know, right right. it's a very dangerous for everybody anybody near there, you know, seriously. the difference today is when we were covering big demonstrations, right so forth. nobody pointed out pointed us out as the enemy of the people. people of the people who are pretty much pretty much thought we were there to tell what was going on and so it was although it was not risk-free. i don't think it was as dangerous as it is today the hospital there wasn't the hostility it out there then at least in my experience. maybe you have a different takes was there wasn't a hostility then that we saw for example up in capital of 6. i think it depends on the riot. okay. i i don't know that media was in

a lot of danger, you know during up some of the black lab matter demonstrations maybe in some instances i can recall when a marion barry was arrested. we were down the courthouse, you know right about this also and and a lot of demonstrators and instigators came in from out of town. i didn't recognize some of these people they certainly didn't recognize me local reporters and i was assaulted isn't the right word because nobody touched me but but a crowd certainly smothered me and and a cop literally had to reach in and grab me and throw me into a police cruiser to get me out there back to the station. so you this isn't a risk free business. i mean a lot of times they don't distinguish between the media and law enforcement. you know, i've said more than once looking around great guys that i you know, what time we were we were in haiti, you know after the earthquake and i said, we're the only two people here have weapons. okay, so it can be dangerous we could have disappeared in haiti

and the station wouldn't have known where to begin to look for us and one of the things you had to do in these very volatile situations. it was protect your cameraman because he's carrying he or she is carrying this 60-pound camera out of there a lot lighter now and anybody jumps from behind they could be seriously injured. so yeah, i can't to kind of look out and make sure you know, they were they were covered but i i i never felt threatened or anything. i mean people would yell out us, but i never thought like i was in real danger and to bring it to full circle again. today's journalists multimedia journalists. they're out there by themselves young men young women without the backup and we were our backup the cameraman the reports and that sort of thing. they're out there by themselves. you've seen them get hit by vehicles. they've been assaulted in one case in virginia. you saw you know where she was killed so it's dangerous. you know anytime anyplace. well so this question is from an

anonymous attendee when covering news conferences of local political politicals. what do you consider to be the primary role of the reporter to recap the message for the public slash audience or to probe the presenter with pertinent but unanswered questions. oh you yeah, you just we're not there as to reprint their press releases. with there to find out what they're going to do. i mean if you're at the white house and president biden comes up and he starts talking about sanctions on on russia. you say how's it going to work? what are you going to do? how are you going to how are you gonna handle it? you're gonna you're gonna send arms to the ukraine you get that's your job that stuff out. your gray bruce. i'm sorry. that's absolutely absolutely.

all right, and we're getting close to time. let me see i can probably do maybe two more questions. i'm gonna try and combine this one. there's a couple people asking about black lives matter again. what will mara romani is asking what you think bruce about the role of the national urban league and the naac cp are playing in a dressing blm blm issues. what more can be done? and then the next question with black lives matter is from ronald baker asking does the mainstream media need to reach out more to those citizens in the midst of the protest to contribute and help complete daily stories. okay, the top part of that question. i would answer this way. i mean if you go back in times martin luther king southern christian leadership conference. there was n double acp a snake

they they were the muslims, you know called black muslims at the time. they the black panthers there are all these different groups with the same and different objectives in in so they managed to coexist. you know, i'm not gonna say it was great. there was criticism and sometimes there wasn't criticism. so i i think that's the case today. there's there's a role for all of these organizations. i would be suspicious if there was one organization or one person one member of the clergy if you will one politician who spoke for all black people. i think that's one of the big mistakes media makes they try to put us all in a box the black community. there are many communities within the black community if you will so show economically, you know, we're different always have been we have different strengths and weaknesses. so so i i think it's dangerous, you know, if everybody be

marching lock step you hit his arguments all the time democrats take you know, black people. they're most loyal constituency for granted. well the republicans they're indifferent, you know, you know to african-american people for the most part if you talk to african-american people, so i don't think there's any one way any one path. i think that there's room for all of these groups. let me add something here many years ago. i was in jerusalem and i interviewed the then mayor of jerusalem teddy colic. and i asked him very colorful person. i said how do you hold this all together? he said -- over here christians over here muslims over here. he said it's a beautiful mosaic. that's the way i think of this country as a beautiful mosaic and the pieces are magnificent, but together they are breathtaking and and i and and you know, if we we have to talk more about how this mosaic comes together and what a beautiful thing it is then about our

differences and i i think as journalists we have that responsibility as well that there's a lot of offline wonderful things going on in this people in this country people doing great things for suffering human beings and and sometimes it's great risks themselves a great sacrifice, but they doing it and and i do that i'm not talking about just doing good news all the time. i'm just saying that we have a tendency to awful eyes things. and and i think that's very dangerous. i think it's very risky, and i think it's unfair and i think it's inaccurate and i think we ought to do more about that. and the other question was does the mainstream media need to reach out more to those citizens in the midst of protests to contribute and help complete the stories of the day. yes, i agree. i think you should you know, why? are you here? what brought you here from idaho? why are you as bruce said? why are you so angry?

what's what's lacking in your life? how bad are things at home that you have to come down here and throw things at the capital? i think that i think that's all the other thing drives me crazy is is analysts talking to each other. how about talking to the voters once in a while? i think that'd be interesting doesn't cost as much to turn to the person sitting next year. i'm gonna go back to interviewing somebody. i once interviewed and i never think about this until somebody asked you know, the kind of questions. that was just posed. i once interviewed the grand wizard of the ku klux klan in selma alabama as they were about to march across the edmund pettus bridge and and i wanted that interview as much as i've ever wanted an interview because i really wanted to get up close to try and get a sense of what the app is this person all about, you know, and i came away my my own conjecture is and he apparently wanted that interview as much as i did because i'm a

reporter from washington and he you know, and it helped him to do this interview, but i came away with them. this guy's the phone. he's a fake, but that that's my interpretation. i didn't say that in the peace. i let what he had to say, which totally winning against everything my mother and grandmother would have would have taught me but i put that in because that is what he was about but i i don't have the luxury of just any good people that agree with me or people like kids, i know what they're gonna say. you know what? i mean? i i have always enjoyed interviewing the person that they came from a different, you know, kind of cloth. i have walked the edmund pettis bridge three times with john lewis a civil rights civil rights observance politics and faith in politics sponsored by his faith and politics. i found it very moving and when you come off the the bridge there are state troopers.

alabama state troopers lined up and they're all black. and what john lewis says is we have to have hope. so they always said we have to have hope i love john lewis just was one of the great gifts of my life to having met him to to be able to talk with them. yeah and to be in his presence. yeah, absolutely right as a matter of fact as i was winding down. the last chapter of this book one of my good friends reminded me. give them hope you got to leave them with some hope. you know, so i don't write to get even you know settle scores. i mean what what? exactly what i gotta leave him with hope and we're a bit over time. but the last question comes from leanne weibert. what do you do in retirement

volunteer read sleep? we'd like to know. well, i can answer for bruce bruce is like a guy just stepped up a foam fleck horse. he never sits down. me i sit down a lot and i read a lot and i visit with friends. oh, wow. i'm only retired from local news. you know, this book is keeping me busy. i'm busy a lot of college campuses. now the pandemic is he's like, i'm looking forward to really get now talking to people and if i really get bored, i'll go knock on gordon's house on gordon's front door to ask and if you can come out, let's see doing in there. can you come out and play? can we go for a walk? available. well bruce, it was great having you being able to host you on pnp live gordon. thank you for being such a great moderator. i grew up in this area. so this is also fun for me as

well meeting you all virtually after. to you on tv for so many years and thank you to the audience for tuning in. please purchase a surviving deep waters from politics and pros you can go into our store and purchase it or you can click on the link that is in the chat and purchase it now. and it's your patronage that keeps us going and everyone enjoy the rest of your saturday night. thank you expose. no. thanks for an incredible bookstore go by politics and pros.

body, and thanks everybody. this has been an amazing few days. this is our last big paddle and i'm taking the prerogative of introducing it because it's people i admire more than almost anybody. i've had the pleasure to spend a career with but before i do, don't worry, i'm not going to give thank you to all the sponsors. i'm going to tell you you got to go outside right after this at four clock. we have music and a whole lot of things but in particu