also next week and look for is that the boston book festival that is posting over 300 speakers. later in the month tune into the live coverage of the texas book festival in austin. and it will take place from the cities in our harbor, for information about upcoming book fairs and festivals and to watch click the book fairs tab on our website, but to be battle. >> and now, but tvs afterwards, washington times national security columnist, bill gertz discusses china's efforts to become a global military and economic superpower. he's interviewed by paula, former under secretary of state for global affairs of the george w. bush administration. afterwards is a weekly interview program with relevant guesthouse interviewing top nonfiction authors about bill, congratulations and thanks so much for joining us today. your blog, we are going to cover

a lot of ground. to seek in the inside up next china's strive for global supremacy. so, first of all why did you decide to make the book? >> this is my eighth book. and, in 2000 i bought a book called the china threat which was a play on what bashan calls the china threat. it was amazing and that they really predicted the emergence of a major threat posed by communist china. ever since they broke the apple i tried to do another china book and, every publisher i approached said we will not write a single topic china book. you can add chapters in china but we won't have a single topic. >> is that? >> i really don't know. it was their interest or their concerns about whether they would sell finding, a detriment bylsma said, it's time to do

another book on the threat from china as sitting becoming greater then it was way back when the china threat was published in 2000. >> your book is very timely. but, let me ask you about this title. it is deceiving the sky, and then you go on inside communist china's drive for global supremacy. the second half was very clear and understandable. what is it deceiving the sky? what is a come from? >> the communists in china are stephen hh -- and many now of the famous dragon just to come from the worn street era. this is 400 - 200 bc. there is also a book of the 36 strategy whose author is not quite clear but it is a compendium of military strategies that would allow weaker power to defeat stronger power which is beijing's main goal today.

the very first strategy is to see this guy to cross the ocean. the meeting goes back to a legend in the legend is that the emperor, one of his generals wanted the emperor to go to war with neighboring problems. the emperor was reluctant. so, the general arrange for dinner at the home of a wealthy peasant. and when the emperor arrived he stepped into the house and he felt it move. he realized it was in the house after all. it turned out to have been about. so, the emperor was the sailing on his way with the general to this neighboring province and he had to decide do i go to a warrior or return home. and he decided to go to work. and the.is, the general, even, you have to even deceive this guy. in chinese legend, disguised emperor and the emperor is actually considered a godlike figure. so, you have to even deceive god to achieve your objective. to me, this is exactly the

strategy that the chinese communist party and beijing are using today, specifically directed at the united states. >> i was very struck by the fact that you dedicated the book to the chinese people. now, before we go into the content and u.s. policy towards china, tell us why you dedicated the book to the chinese people. >> well, i think the chinese people need to be liberated from the horrors of the commonest regime. we don't, i remember doing a debate in new york city many years ago and it was whether the china was a threat. on the side one said that china was in the threat was a businessman who came up after you said you know, i have been doing business in china for 20 years and i have never met a communist. i was shocked and i said well you should visit the people's liberation army museum in beijing check done in the past. there you will see all of the founding fathers of communism. that is even now, stalin, ankles

mark, so, it is really important to understand this aspect this regime is truly going after global supremacy in a way that they had not done in the past. >> well, if you are in beijing today and you were before chinese audience and was mentioned that you dedicated the book to them, what would you say to them directly? >> well, there is a big myth in china that the chinese party is one with the people. chinese colonel came to visit at the washington times many years ago he said, i said look, my beef is not with the chinese people, as with the communist party of china. and he said zero no, there is no difference between the communist china party and the chinese people, that is a huge lie. 1.4 billion people are enslaved under this system, they are as

many as 93 million communist party members, but for the most part, the people of china do not want that system. they have tasted a little bit of prosperity mainly in the main cities, they tasted a little bit of freedom, many have traveled to the united states and so i really felt like i wanted to dedicate the book to bring the chinese people to the communist party. >> at the beginning of the book you go into how we got it wrong. in particular, you cite back in 1999 the defense intelligence agency issued a report and basically that report minimize basically that china was a threat. but then you juxtapose that with some 20 years later you basically indicate that army lieutenant general ashley had in fact indicated that communist ideology had not changed at all as a motivating course for china's rulers.

and basically, the report that was issued then really documented how and why china is a threat. in fact, one data.that really struck me was the $600 billion annually in stolen technologies and intellectual property rather substantial. so, how did we get it wrong? what was happening in 1999 and then y20 years later he change? >> sure. i'd like to tell the story that back in the late '90s i was writing a story on the pla, and at that time the pentagon was more pressed family and they would give you background briefing so i went in they gave me a background briefing which was fairly vanilla in terms of what they had to say. but at the end of the briefing a colonel came and he said the general would like to see you. the general was the director and he sat at the end of the table and he told me that china was not a threat.

and i was very surprised. i would expect that kind of kind on my question was, why do you think that and he said, basically because of their statements. and this was astounding to me. i could understand that for policy officials who want to spin the reporting for even civilian intelligence people but for the top military intelligence officer to say that this their arms communist dictatorship which has missiles capable of hitting our cities is not a threat i really felt deeply resent deception operation underway. passport a couple of years later in we revealed and i revealed him on my earlier books that one of the top analyst at dia turned out to be a chinese high. and that he was passing information. so, i believe that it was china's. penetration at dia at that time was given this false information. general ashley, the current dia director has obviously made

taken a major shift, and that is a reflection of overall trump administration policy. they have made at tectonics shift in policy towards china and by identifying it as a strategic competitor. that is filtering its way throughout the government bureaucracy right now. >> in fact, let me pick up on that, with the advent of the trump administration in fact, back in december of 2017, was 2017 it was, when the national security strategy was released, it does state that both russia and china are strategic competitors. but, you also defined china as not just only a strategic competitor, but also a threat. you really document that in the book. elaborate a little bit more on that picture. my view, the first step in finding solutions whether for policies or anything else is to

identify the threat. without understanding that, we will never be able to solve the problem of china. so, i looked at this and i said, what is it that makes up the threat from china. and i spent a lot of time looking at chinese ideology. look at their weapon systems, their intelligence operations, their financial warfare and, it is quite an impressive array of threats. in my view it is in a substantial threat town like any faced by the united states many times in history. >> but there was another dimension and that is, in the trump administration the link has been made between american national security and the issue of economic security. and that is really is centerpiece that has been

developed. to some extent you could argue some of that has been there but in terms of the approach is very hard-hitting and it's really having a significant impact, particularly at a time when china itself has been confronted with its own economic woes. >> so, wouldn't you add that it's not only the military component, not only digital power influence, and also the economic dimension that is absolutely essential here's my guess, i have an entire chapter on chinese economic warfare but before i get into that i wanted to.out about this idea of the multifaceted threat from china. the reason the threat has become worse is because we, the united states has been engaged in what i describe as a 30 - 40 year gamble, strategic gamble. that gamble began under henry kissinger when the aligned with

beijing against moscow during the cold war. it was designed to basically help defeat the soviet union, again, the u.s. at that time bailed out, struggling communist party of china but after the fall of the berlin wall and the collapse of the soviet union, there was never re- evaluations of the engagement policy with china went on autopilot. and, it was never reevaluated and it became this great legacy policy that we have to continue. and that really has been enormously damaging, for example, let me give you one that's the most concrete example. engagement carried through several administrations both republican and democratic but during the administration is bilking latent heat a high.and at that.bill clinton allowed our national weapons laboratory, the

nuclear laboratories to have exchanges with china. within a few short years the cia issued a conclusion that through espionage china had obtained secrets on every deployed warhead in the u.s. arsenal. that loss of secrets which has never been fully resolved by our investigative agencies but is clear that it happened was compounded when the chinese then spread warhead technology to pakistan. pakistan then threw be a q. week on nuclear that nuclear technology to north korea, iran, syria and libya, we found this out in 2003 when we took out the libyan nuclear program. among the documents turned over to investigators were chinese language documents on how to design is small warhead missile. i cannot think of a greater damage to our global security than this unfettered engagement

that did not understand the nation number threat. >> rather substantial points that you are making, it dives into the economic domain as i was asking just about that a bit. because, that particular piece, you made very clear that kind of threat that is posed given the kind of espionage activities taking place but also, how is the economic instrument being wielded in advancing china's own agenda #. >> the chinese economic threat derives from the fact that they are trying to use their economic powers to diminish the united states. and, they are doing this through several layers. let me first touch on the trump shift in policy, what president trump has done more than any other president has aligned u.s.

national security with economic security and that is filtered throughout the entire government whether law enforcement, intelligence, and everyone is looking at the chinese economic threat. and as you mentioned, the white house was very successful in highlighting the spirit, they issued a report with a stunning title title china's economic aggression and there is a huge policy fight with the bureaucrat saying, we cannot say economic aggression, but when you read the report you understand why. that is where they determined that based on the estimates that between 250 billion in 600 billion annually in american intellectual property and technology has been stolen by china. no nation can survive, especially a nation so heavily reliant on its technology and innovation with that kind of theft. so, getting back to the soviet cold war analogy, as you

remember back in the reagan administration, the reagan administration did something unique toward the soviet union, they basically said, we are going to block western technology to moscow, it was a major contributing factor in the demise of the soviet union. trump is basically doing a similar thing towards china, he is going to say okay, let's see how great the chinese economic miracle is, once american technologies blocked off and so, there has been an unprecedented level of policies designed to prevent this lower technology, in fact, i.out in the book that this policy got its launch very early 2017 during the trump tower meeting with the newly elected president trump. he met with the top executives from silicon valley into a person their main concern was, how do we stanch the flow of american know-how to china. so, that is where it has begun.

>> to feel like china's predatory economic policies will be afforded as a result of this policy approach? in the financial warfare chapter deceiving the sky, i.out that in addition to the tears that have been posed by the trump administration which are having an impact, china has taken a different tack and they are going after american capital markets through those investments to raise those money, as well as to raise policy. take for example the investments by the california personnel or retirement fund in chinese companies, those funds could then say, don't sanction china because our retirement funds are invested. this is happening on a large scale. i'm happy to say the administration within the past week has announced they are

going to take steps to announce they are going to try to curb this very unregulated capital markets which again united states is unprecedented leader in all capital. >> the administration has been quite vigilant on this issue and the negotiators also have these goals, those objectives and correcting those predatory actions as part of the negotiations. robert like kaiser are at the forefront of it. who is she china's leader. >> the gg being goals and objectives. >> swag up until the upper reaches of power which took place around 2012 and 2013, the chinese tragedy for the world again they watch closely and saw the collapse of the soviet union

and so, their idea was, mom let's be friends they were in a communist, they were not a threat. >> the reason for that is xi jinping is policy for that is to buyer time, that has changed dramatically under xi jinping. xi jinping has announced his goal is the chinese stream. and the chinese stream in my view is a really a communist party of china. this is where china is seeking to take its rightful place as the sole superpower in the world. so, it's not just that they are spreading their own power and the communist system and their predatory lending practices, but, it also means that in order for them to achieve that, they have to go after the united states. they had to weaken their main enemy. and there we see the unfettered

policies of china to send the opioid defense knowledge to the united states to exasperate the op of crisis. >> is a nature that they have strived rather successfully they have done that through the votes which basically says he is leader for life, he also has done that even in articulating the power of the communist party. he talks about the revitalization of the communist party. you see here made to any capacities be vulnerable? >> he has consolidated powers since 2012 through a massive perch. that has been carried out under the awesome auspices of corruption he has instituted an

unprecedented purge, not just of middle level officials were low-level officials, the sum of the most senior officials of the communist party. anyone perceived of your bible. this is creating great instability in china. the way china's communist party is structured is very much like a group of mafia family were each mafia has an outreach and network. by purging the mafia families it is creating some type of internal opposition to him. that said, he has strengthened the internal apparatus in china which is mainly the administration of purity. there are numerous chinese security organization, all of them modeled after the soviet kgb which is again, a political police and intelligence service that serves a dual function as both intelligence and internal

security. >> one of your chapters is entitled, the coming space bar with china. in fact, in that chapter you even discuss the prospects for war itself. and, speculate that china, that this cannot be ruled out. please talk a bit about that and then let's also discuss the trap in the path that we're on know what is likely. >> yes, the military threat from china is being used on what the chinese called asymmetric warfare, or, assassin weapon, that is again going back to eire where a weaker power does not try to confront the enemy had all but tries to find is

vulnerabilities and discuss -- space workers one of those commas base warfare is another. space warfare is a real vulnerability for the united states because on the multitude of satellite per communications, for finance, intelligence, military and navigation. china has understood that in developed an array of weapons. this is a nonfiction book but i included a fictional scenario for how china could launch a worldwide kind of pearl harbor, a missile attack pearl harbor. the first phase of that would be knocking out he missile warning satellite. the missile operates very good ice they can pick up key signatures the missile launches anywhere on earth. through attacking the or destroying as many as two dozen satellites the u.s. military could be crippled in its ability

to function. again, we are the sole superpower right now but china is working to diminish that capability. >> and what about graham allison zone-makes me i don't mention it in the book because i don't think it is a valid assessment,. >> i don't think war with china is inevitable. this notion that in the past going back through ancient times that are declining and rising power will automatically go to war. first of all, this has been a major chinese propaganda team that china is the rising power in the world and is working but, the united states must diminish. but we don't hear much is how the chinese is trying to diminish the united states. but i would save united states has definitely it's going to be the sole superpower and, i agree

with president trump strategy of peace through strength. they go back to the reagan administration where they basically says look, if you want to prevent a war, make sure that the other side doesn't miscalculate into stumbling into a war. i think that's kind of why i disagree with the graham allison strategies. >> you also have a number of very interesting quotes. each chapter has a quote. for example, on the assassin ace in space you have a colonel saying quote, to meet the requirements of defeating the united states in the war, the poa should have assassin maids, weapons of space-mike capability. you do talk about the fact that

it does have that capability today. >> this is one of the areas where china is ahead of the united states. the united states military has recently set up a brand-new space man. guess what, they have no weapons. at least no weapons that we know it. china on the other hand has an array of very lethal and capable anti- satellite weapons. we first learned is back in 2007 when china tested a ground launch so-called assault missile which targeted a weather satellite, a chinese weather satellite. the impact from that satellite and i spent an entire chapter explaining how the chinese lied about that, it's very characteristic of the approach, the satellite kicked it in some thousands of pieces of floating debris which are going to threaten both manned and unmanned spacecraft about 50. >> 100 years. china learned from that lesson, they take a look but a heat from

the international community and so the second thing they developed our ground based elation. the best way to attack an orbiting satellite according to the experts is to use a ground-based laser, high-powered laser. all you have to do disable or destroy an orbiting satellite is to warm up the electronic or damage the sensors are the optical cameras on those things and they are out of business without the same debris field. in addition to bold missiles and lasers, they have also delivered co- orbital satellites and i highlighted in the book on how they tested a group of small satellites. one of which had an robotic arm one of which could pressure satellite or knock it out of orbit. this is an impressive array of weaponry. again, they have been developing it come before 2007 and the u.s. is now trying to catch up and

make your book really documents many areas like that. in fact, i think digital area and cyber attack you begin with a quote in this case from the 1940s. i want to read that. says quote, to achieve victory we must, as far as possible make the enemy blind feeling his eyes and ears and drive his commanders to distraction by creating confusion in their minds. so, relate that statement to cyber. and cyber goals? >> the chinese cyber threat like the space that is another one of their asymmetric capabilities where they are on par or ahead of the united states. and, they have done a massive job of developing the ability to get inside of networks and control networks read everything from our military networks that tell what kind of logistics were

going to need him were going to move troops to the battlefront to a financial networks and most alarmingly, the chinese cyber threat has been detected inside of our electrical grid. again, they call this cyber recognizance. another was, they are mapping the network. the united states have roughly three electric power grids. the chinese have been detected in all three of the belief among military is that in a crisis or conflict they could basically turn off the lights. now, we have 16 critical infrastructures in addition to our electric grid, our financial communications. but we cope dogs with the most critical infrastructures the electric grid. if that goes down were in deep trouble. >> on a scale of one to ten and ten being the most concerning, where are we on that scale in terms of a continued feature of

a chinese cyber attack. >> i would say the chinese cyber attack today is seven and eight and growing. we have witnessed it in many ways. it is going to get worse when the chinese have stolen massive amounts of data. in the book i highlight the case of -- and he was the case of a pla hacker and he operated the network out of vancouver that successfully broke into boeing and stole a $.4 billion worth of research on the c-17 transport. this was the militaries front-line transport. i have traveled on many of them. for as little as $300,000, they were able to steal the technology, not only did they steal it, but they sent it back to beijing where they turned it into the 20 which is their brand-new transport. this is only one example. identity side on this you being

case. it is characteristic of the kinds of things they are doing. but there have been many massive cyber breaches. the most significant of which was the offense of personal management, opm, were 22 million records of federal workers but not just any federal workers, federal workers who are engaged in classified work, this is an amazing breach, the government notified their information was compromised how could china use this? they could couple it with artificial intelligence which is another area they are working on and for example, they're interested in counterintelligence so they could use it to find out chinese language speakers they can use it for dirty tricks and things

like that, they could use it to identify network industries, they can learn could jen chose and break into those network. >> you have you have so many areas that you can cover in terms of their engagement and where they deploy different kinds of technologies economic interests et cetera throughout the book. i would be able to cover all you have a chapter entitled high-tech totalitarianism. you mention by 2018 china put into place a new technological control system based in part you say here on an estimated 200

surveillance cameras around the country and they cameras are seemingly everywhere. on street poles, lamps, ceilings, traffic signals, et cetera. talk about this high-tech totalitarianism. >> this is following on my important note that this is a reflection of chinese communist ideology. total control and the elimination of any person or institution that is perceived as a threat to the parties power, it has become what they call a social credit system, whereby just as you got a credit on your credit card or finances, they have a credit card for your politics. a friend of mine told me in beijing, where people normally cross the street, person refuse to cross the street when there wasn't a proper crossing signal because, automatically he would be identified and his social

credit would be diminished. there are also stories that people who have done things that are perceived as anti- regime or anti-communist party, they are limited from traveling. they cannot take trains, they can't figure, and people in china are actually even going to the remote parts of the country and trying to buy credit from people there that don't have this problem. a lot of this technology, these surveillance cameras were stolen from the united states. they have even developed in addition to facial recognition, they have something that can actually measure the gate that you walk. so if they can't see a persons face, they can use a massive database on high-speed computing to be able to identify individuals through their grades. >> what about chinese soft power? i'm going to use the term smart soft power and instead of --

power. we know they are heavily involved in economic development. latin america, the middle east, africa, you see it is very effective. if so, why is it effective in your opinion? >> well, under xi jinping they have expanded in a number of areas. i would say stop powers one, influence operations is another. they have eggs band is something called united front, which is a qualified intelligence unit that is responsible for advancing chinese strategic interest of the world. i think one of the key features of chinese expansion that is the belton road initiative. this worked out of xi jinping is ideology for china's dream. now the belton road initiative is a trojan horse of chinese expansionism. it's targeting on the developing

world. so they go into a poor country and says i would like to build the railroad for you they do it at exorbitant interest rate raven a problem paying back this loan and the chinese says that's my royal road now. and that kind of thing is taking place on a large scale around the world, especially the developing world. my own view is that the u.s. encirclement strategies, big we take over her body up our developing world and that we it exerts power against the developing world. >> what about their intelligence operations and espionage? you have a case in here concerning key west. share with us what exactly happened in key west. >> well, most people that are

familiar with chinese intelligence operations know about the two main spy organizations. one is the administrative state security known as msf. it's a national intelligence police. the second department of the poa, or to pois, that has recently been folded into a new military unit, but those are the two ones the fbi has been chasing for years. last year, something new emerged, a young man who booked himself into a hotel room in key west, left his wallet and things behind, had to cameras on him and then went to naval air station key west and walked around a security fence that had stretched in the water and began photographing the antenna. a contractor on the base spotted and immediately arrested him. the fbi came in and it turned out this was a new type of

chinese spy. a spy from the chinese and ministry. it is kind of the uber security service in china today. actually, eclipsing the msf into poa. so, this guy was convicted and sentenced to prison and the officials involved in the case said it was not unusual that the administrative public security had to stash a spy to spy on this facility which again is a key facility for counter drug operation, a major intelligence into their, who knows what exactly he was after. but again, in the counterintelligence business you can tell what motivation of the spies are by the targets we are going after you also talked about influence making and in this regard, one of the things that also takes place, you have really an influx of chinese influence in the united states,

you also have a we also have a number of academic institutions that have these confucius institutes. there has really been a flurry of attacks on those institutions that are taking resources from the confucius institute. let me give an example in the state of florida. i know they are in good number and senator marco rubio has come out very much against these institutions existing. >> talked a bit also and describe what is going on because in your book you do we together specific capabilities, specific technological capacities but you also talk about ideology and the importance of ideology. >> the confucius institutes, again it's another trojan horse often and it has been very

effective chinese communist party influence tool, especially on american campuses. there are about 100 of these institutes funded by the chinese government and the objective is to teach chinese culture. interestingly, the officially atheist communist party in china is using confucius as a tool as an influence tool. what has happened with these institutes is that these universities which again our dependence on foreign students have become dependent on these confucius institutes and therefore they are moderating their policies. you cannot find on many campuses courses that teach about the evils of the communist party of china. this party that has been blamed of the deaths of 60 million chinese since the founding of china. so, as you mention marco rubio has been one of the more outspoken members of congress and trying to get universities

to get these off. they are reluctant to do it because they have become reliance on it. you they become this finance and power working together. and of course on the student and researcher front there are at least 300,000 chinese students. not all are spies but all can be called upon by chinese security agencies to conduct work for them. in fact just recently there has been an arrest that wasn't involved in thousand talents program. this is one of the chinese governments biggest programs to get officials who have expertise to go from the united states to china. there is mention for the first time in the indictment in this case that the chinese officials was working with one of the confucius institutes on a university in massachusetts

which was not identified by name but which was most likely mit or massachusetts institute of technology. >> interesting, military might, we have touched upon a number of areas but let's go to military might. clearly, the chinese are investing in their navy and also many countries in the region have been very concerned about what they had been witnessing in terms of the islands, south china sea island dispute, but also about the investments, the significant investments in the military. where is it now. how would you describe it? >> i touched on this a little bit earlier. the chinese military threat comes in two forms, the conventional/unconventional warfare they have developed an array of new weapons systems.

i can remember covering way back many years ago that the chinese through a spy case in california stole details on the battle management system which is a huge radar that is the heart of our modern navy and they stole that, they combined it with chinese and now, they are cranking out hundreds of warships. in terms of submarines, again, they are behind the united states in terms of quietness. in the submarine warfare how quiet his submarine is is the most important thing, but they are getting quieter. on the nuclear front it is a major, major challenge in the sense that the chinese nuclear threat is increasing exponentially and we know very little about it. we have two arms control and the cold war as you know we are able to engage the soviet union to find out things about -- it was

a force for stability. they refuse to engage in the debate or negotiations with united states and the reason is, they believe that any discussion will determine its top value. they don't know whether they have 600 warheads or whether they have 1500 warheads or whether they have 10000 warheads. we honestly don't know. what we do know is that they have something called the great underground wall. this is 3000 miles of tunnel that are used for storage and production of nuclear weapon so, the nuclear threat from china is growing and is compounded by an advanced missile system. this is another assassin weapon called the hypersonic missile. it travels at mach seven or mark five or above which is 7000 miles per hour and can literally outrun our missile

defenses. in addition to being -- it has the capability and a physics environment to maneuver its target. the chinese developed this as a conventional warhead by perhaps anti- -- as well as the -- and the new topic of concern, also it has been front and center in terms of our foreign policy. we are the secretary of state, mike pompeo has raised this issue with many of our allies, some who have taken measures against such technology, via the chinese and others who haven't listened and who are looking at going down that path. explain the concerns. about a walkway of 5g it's not simply an advance intelligent

communications. it is a revolutionary step above what we are currently doing in our handheld devices. it requires an infrastructure. the chinese are seeking to corner the international market on 5g technology. they are making -- expects high-tech utilitarianism. there are a few chinese telecommunications giants, many had been sanctioned by the united states, huawei technologies is the most concerning, and is a state run company masquerading as a private company. its leader was a former warfare expert and right now there is a huge battle, the trump administration has indicted the cfo, it's being held in house arrest outside of vancouver

canada there is a case against her which shows that huawei has been illegally conducting business in iran. it is a backdoor way to deal with the huawei threat. so far efforts have not succeeded in getting as many allies about this technology one way they have been influencing others which can be used for intelligence gathering they will not share technology or intelligence with key partners and allies that have huawei technology. the router some things. the reason is, there is a belief, we have learned from this noting documents that the national security agency was able to penetrate huawei equipment and actually spy on the spies that the chinese were spying on.

so, we know that in addition to that they have what is known as an intelligence law which requires allstate companies in china were private companies to provide data for chinese intelligence and unity services. >> i want to go down to last pass in the time we have remaining. one of which is, foreign affairs and number of years back to the pole, conducted a poll on in the poll the question was is russia geopolitical threat. and it was interesting because half of the foreign policy experts basically in varying degrees said yes, but the other half focused on china. and very specifically said that it is not russia, it is china. let's take a look at both, you have covered boat, you have written about both so, where on the scales you fit, where is

china? where's rusher in terms of geopolitical threats to the united states and our allies? >> in terms of magnitude, china is by far the greatest threat. and, i think this is a little confusing in the trump administration is national security strategy and national defense strategy where they coupled both china and russia together. again, this has been a very bureaucratic.for many years to try to diminish the chinese threat by elevating the russian threat. the foreign policy community and academic community is on a autopilot when it comes to russia. that is based on the cold war. during the cold war we fielded numerous experts on the soviet threat. they continued. there is kind of a russia threat culture within this community. and that is rapidly changing.

again, there were much for your china experts. the language was difficult, the culture was difficult, that is changing rapidly. i was recently at stanford where i heard an academic man who was not necessarily concerned about the china threat and he breathed a bunch of reporters. he literally said that, i am really afraid of what is happening as we see this emerging threat from china. the other thing to look at is the chinese economy is probably seven times larger than the russian economy. where the problem with pressure comes in, they are developing a series of vladimir putin students to a weapons. hypersonic missiles, and nuclear power cruise missile, massive large icbms, a number of very threatening weapons. the russian threat however i believe was limited to vladimir putin in his regime and in fact, one of the recommendations i make is the united states should

play the russia card against. we need russia as an ally, that will not happen as long as vladimir putin is empowered. but, russia said putin could be bought out, you could give him back the billions he has taken from russia. >> you put forth a number of recommendations at the end of the book what are some of the recommendations, how we can really tackle this challenge. >> reporter: i think the key recommendation i make is for the u.s. government and united states as a whole to recognize the true nature of the china threat as i call it. and really declare china much more than a strategic competitor but as an actual adversary or enemy. the national security strategy and national defense strategy took important steps in identifying china as a strategic competitor. to me that is a halfway measure, basically as a spot to pro

engagement community who said, let's keep trading with china and keep doing business with them as a way. problem is, after 40 years and engagement our economy is so intertwined with china, that is beginning to change. a lot of businesses are pulling out men in vietnam another places like that, i think it is time to declare and if we do that we say china is the adversary than that will go a long way towards helping us. another recommendation is to have a parliament in exile. let's recognize around the world and bring them together once a year and create ideas and policies for reforming the system into a democratic system. happening and have them going china. the other thing i look at is expanding missile defenses.

in the case of south korea when united states deployed the theater high altitude defense very effective missile system. by causing problems for them, this is a sign that china does not like the missile defense because it is so missile oriented. they have so many different types of muscle. so let's start deploying the missile -- throughout the world. in india, and southeast asia, and australia, and all of these places and let's really encircle china and mitigate the china missile threat. >> reporter: where does india fit into the strategy given india's own objectives in the region? and also, going back to the issue of russia, say just a little bit more about where russia likes. i like that question because, are you concerned about a closer

chinese russia alliance that is emerging #some experts think that is happening others counter that say that is not happening. >> first on india the india relationship with the united states is growing. india's kind of like the united states and that they have had this decades long debate about china with pro china and anti- china communist party concerns and so they're beginning to wake up to the china threat. they have a dispute with china and they are very concerns. when i talk to indian officials here, it is the main national security threat for china for india. as for russia and china growing closer together, we have seen in the past couple of years and in fact in the past few weeks some joint military exercises. this was unusual. russia has been having

large-scale exercises and china has been sending forces. i think the russians are a bit cautious about the relationship with china, traditionally china has speared china taking over its far east, the russian far east which is very vulnerable, low population and few differences. so, there have been a long i think putin has aligned with beijing, basically because he is against the united states so it's an anti- u.s. motivation. but it is the concern to see their growing alliance. it is mainly focused as an anti- u.s. online make if you had to pick out our vulnerability of china what you think they are most vulnerable long. >> reporter: i think their most vulnerable on the regime of legitimacy. they are going to be celebrating 70 years of communist rule and, it should not be a cause for celebration. again, when you look back at the

massive deaths that have been cause, there is a book published called the black book of communism which estimated the depths of communism to be 60 million people. this is the legacy of the communist party of china. it needs to be held accountable for that. i think by exposing that and exposing the true nature of the communist regime, it would go a long way towards bringing about a democratic change in china. >> and bill, let me ask you, and impeaching yearbook to policymakers, what you want them to know about this book? what is the most essential may be top three points and a message that you want to leave with them? >> yes. this is the most important book that anyone can read about the china threat. and, there are basically three things, two or three things but the main one is that china is a

nuclear arms communist dictatorship that is growing stronger and more threatening. second, we have really missed china. our policy community has misted and we really need to admit that. and i think that we are starting to see a much greater debate and policy circles about that. this is the key. and then thirdly, we have got to bring about a peaceful, democratic change within china. that is ultimately the way to mitigate the threat, to bring about the end of the communist party. and of course, xi jinping main objective is to keep the -- in power and ultimately become a global hedge fund for supremacy and dominance over the entire world. >> bill gerdes, thank you so much for coming today. much appreciated. and, let me just start from

where we really began, deceiving the sky, inside communist china strive for the global supremacy is certainly a fascinating book, and you have really done a lot of work and research that you put into this. so, thank you again for coming today. interesting read. thank you. this program is available as a podcast. all afterwards programs can be viewed on our website on book to be dawdled here is what is up in prime time tonight on tv. biographer benjamin mosher counts the life of the late intellectual susan . syndicated columnist shares her thoughts on how to reduce political polarization. former obama administration

national security advisor, and un investor, susan rice, reflects on her life and career. journalist james stewart james on his interviews with members of the fbi, justice department and white house to report on the mueller investigation. and bob recalls the life of a bootlegger, george remus. that all heirs evening starting at 6:30 p.m. eastern spam two, book tv. check your program guide for more information. >> welcome back to nashville, and day two of our live coverage of the southern customer books. we have a couple of author programs coming up, including former obama administration un ambassador samantha power on her recent memoir. check your program guide for a complete schedule, first up is a discussion about podcasting.

. . . >>