>> [inaudible] >> official that toll was 27 but one of the things i tried to document in the book was how the real death toll was much larger in the scores, if not hundreds. >> you have a question? >> oh, you're telling me it's over. [laughter] thank you all for coming. thank you for by the books. [applause] [background noises]

>> you're watching tv on c-span2, live coverage of the miami book fair. joining us is jonah goldberg, his most recent book is called "suicide of the west". we will get to the subtitle in a minute but mr. goldberg, is there a line you could drawe between your three books, liberal fascism, tyranny of clichés and now "suicide of the west"? >> yes, one most obvious one is they took an enormous amount of work by jonah goldberg. often tell people that this book is a bit of a prequel to liberal fascism and if i had it all to do over again i would written parts of liberal fascism differently. it's amazing how it's become a total for people to hate me on the left or like it on the right and i have changed some of my

views about how intellectual history works. in liberal fascism there's a tendency that is true of other people on the left and right to say philosopher a said acts. 500 years later philosopher b said therefore philosopher b must of been influenced by philosopher a. obviously some of that goes on but that intellectual connecting of the dots blaming everything on russo, i don't believe it in it as much anymore. it's interesting and illuminating but one of the things that come around to is on a much bigger believer and how our brains sometimes guide the ideas that we grab hold of. that tribalism is a thing that is hardwired into us and can manifest itself in different ways and places and that sense of want to be part of a group

that tried socialism or fascism or communism or nothingism or any of the things that you think is more important than i i realize, not just ideas that drive everything but receptivity of her own brains to those ideas that is important and there's a lot of overlap in the political philosophy in all three books with limited government and that kind of thing. the evolution of how i feel the things is it someplace where my head is a lot these days. >> if you had to rewrite liberal fascism would be a completely different book. >> no, the first four or five chapters maybe there's this source i would not of used but the overarching historical argument that i make and how i frame it i'm perfectly happy to defense. one of the things i wanted to do

with that book was to get people to stop using the word fascist so much instead i made a habit bipartisan. some of the hammer and tone partisan book in the second half of the book i do everything. unintended quizzes is that even though i don't like this political agitator and activist that has become a demon head on the right in the last ten years in part because of me and because i helped introduce him out there but what has maybe on the right so many on the right say we have to be like him when my whole argument was this was a bad guy in his argument is to justify means or bad thing and a lot of people on the right who think the only way is to be a -- i hate this kind of thinking and this kind of you can't beat them, join them, fight fire with

fire and thinking it's suffused the right these days with these sort of populist nationalist crowd which are not a part of. >> when you talk tribalism and look at yourself what tribes do you belong to? >> one of the things that makes it work that liberal democrat capitals work is you want to have a portfolio of allegiances. efferent institutions, different identities and -- i'm against of what gk chesterton called well at presence of a single idea. what you want or what makes it possible is not just division of labor in terms of our jobs but division of labor in terms of our mind that part of our date we could be religious and part of a date we can define ourselves as a father or mother or as a sports fan and that allows us to get outside of

these single lanes of identity and i belong to a lot of different tribes. my family is the ultimate first platoon, first allegiance but there's also places like national review and the american enterprise institute. you can go down judaism to some extent although i'm a very bad do but go down a long list of these identities and i think they're mostly simpatico or symbiotic each other but also different. what you don't want to do is where the demands of your single tribe override all other considerations. you get -- one of the reasons i don't like populist on left and right is basically the logic of the mob. it says we are all in it together and what we believe in is correct and one of the things that we've seen in the last couple of years on the right is

this attitude from some conservative activists and intellectuals that i'mm arming from a french intellectual and can't remember his name but the people have chosen and i must go with them for i am their leader. there's an enormous amount of get on board the train and get with the program's and i used to stay for ten years to see the most thing that was set on a college campus every single day is if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. that is not a bipartisan attitude in big chunks of the country and i don't like that. >> where is the overlap between tribalism, nationalism and populism? >> in one sense there all forms of tribalism and there is the thingrm that the evolutionary psychiatrist psychologist writes about really well called the coalition and we are born with this wiring that says we need to be a part of group that's part of our collective interest and

part of our wiring in the family fathers understood this is part of human nature infection. m smith says seldom will you get to men of the same trade or business meeting where the conversation will quickly turn to conspiracy against public good and what he meant by that is people tend to form groups, prison gangs are perfect example, self forming coalition. tribalism which is a good day today i have to think is gettina that natural human tendency that manifests itself in different ways. one way to think about is communism with tribalism for one class. fascism was tribalism for one nation. nothingism was tribalism for one race. there is the thing in our brain that clicked on that says we

want to be a part of the group and sees the other is a danger. the great thing about liberal amaral capitalism is it helps us learn how to deal with strangers and we evolve for 100,000 yearse with serious programming process do not trust strangers. one of a book by guy at yale, paul bloom, where he surveys the research done about the programming that babies are inherited with. dover, no babies were harmed inn the product of those experiments but babies are born with accidents. french babies have a french accent. german babies heavy german accent. babies are born to bond very acquickly with the appearance of their parents and instinctively distrust people who sound different or look different. people say you to be taught to hate but they are completely wrong. people need to be taught is not to hate. we are in the evolutionary apartment which and talked about at great length there is an enormous evolutionary advantage

to being cooperative. the drive to work together will pass on its genes while the one that's full of rugged individualist who read [inaudible] will be wiped out. because of that programming there are certain political etiologies that can trick us into being part of this cultic unity. the great thing about -- ben sasse is good in his book about this. unity is not the problem. unity is a good thing. tribalism is a good thing but it's finding healthy attachments and outlets for it, faith, family, friends, local community, meeting and institutions close to home. those are all good things. the politics can't assert that very well at a national levelse without becoming distorting in tribal and that is the problem with government cannot love you. >> identity politics which is

the fourth mention in your subtitle is that just another word for these three things? >> what they all are is they are important different manifestations of this underlying phenomenon. identity politics is an ancient human understanding or a way of looking at the world. among the first forms of identity politics with was aristocracy. aristocrat resentment rule of the best. the most worthy. but what happened is another part of human nature that says i want to play favorites with my jeans and my family and my friends and my can and coalition and nepotism is hardwired and exists in every humanity that ever existed and the aristocrats invented the concept of noble blood. this idea that some people are simply born better than other people. aristotle talks about how people are born by nature slaves or rulers.

that was one of the original forms of identity politics that some people by accident of birth are better than other people and more worthy or worse than other people. one of the greatest things of the founding fathers did was get rid of titles of nobility. there was this idea inherent in the founding monopoly realized and a lot of hypocritical exceptions that you should judge people on their own individual merit and take people as you found them and the problem iob have with identity politics is that it's ancient and reactionary. it is going back to this idea there's different castes of people in different kinds of people that should be judged differently, not on their own merit but because of the circumstances of their birth or their ancestry. that is an ancient and actually form of politics and reforms so much of what increasing on right but on the left jonah goldberg. >> why does it seem so today

that populism and nationalism and tribal identity is so exaggerated and pronounced today perhaps more than was ten years ago? >> definitely more pronounced today. i think that one of the most important drivers of this is the breakdown of all the institutions of civil society at the local level in place where we live in this world. again, we are wired to want to belong to a group and get meaning any sense of belonging and the institution are the most healthy and productive start a family but local religious organizations, civic groups and when those things breakdown we don't lose that instinct. it was called the quest for committee. we look elsewhere for. our politics in the last 30 years, 40 years have

increasingly been selling this idea that the government can give -- that partisan politics can give you that sense of identity. partisan politics can be your tribe the first words the democratic convention of 2012 were from a video that said government is the one thing we all belong to. that sense of how to look at politics where there's my group and the other group is inherently tribal and demonizing and so you have very high levels of negative polarization in america today which is what -- scientists are getting at when nsey talk about for millions of americans the reason why the democrats is they hate republicans and vice versa. yet this giant sorted where today your partisan affiliation tells an enormous amount about you and part of your identity and 40 years ago if i asked if

you are republican or democrat i have to ask a follow-up if you are liberal or conservative but that's not true anymore. there's an enormous sense that politics is becoming a lifestyle and our lifestyles are becoming politicized because there aren't better sources of the meaning in our lives and with the balkanization of mass media we have any outlets that are serving as de facto arms of ourt two clinical parties in part because political parties are so weak and is one of the great ironies of the time we're in. our partisanship has not been this bad since the 1850s but the parties themselves have never been weaker. because they can't handle the politics that our country is supposed to handle all these institutions are being politicized. every ceremony some jack ass is often used as a political speeco sounds like it was fit for the party but "the new york times" lobbyist readers vote to call it congressman about the tax bill,

fox news will have a consultant for contributor for ten years the opinion shows at night are basically commercials for the rnc, msnbc is a virtue signaling to democrats in much the same way. these institutions become in some way co-opted in the political process and we are told because we only listen to media outlets we always agree with the demonization become self-perpetuating and we see the other is a person who that is wrong but against our very way of life and wants to destroy all we hold dear. that is part of the answer rig right. >> that's a taste of "suicide of the west", jonah goldberg's new book, subtitle of the rebirth of tribalism, populism, nationalism and identity politics is destroying american democracy. thank you for your few minutes here in miami. >> great to be here. thank you very much. >> the miami book fair continues now.