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the assistant secretary of state for european affairs discussed u.s. foreign policy and the senate foreign relations subcommittee hearing. the discussion focused on military interest in europe and the nato alliance. this hour 20 minute hearing begins with subcommittee chair ron johnson. good rng. this hearing is called to order. i'm happy to welcome assistant secretary wes mitchell to discuss u.s. foreign policy in europe. the secretary i really appreciate you coming and looking forward to our back and

forth. i would ask consensus of my opening remarks be entered into the record. i just want to make a couple quick points. i'm an accountant. i like data. there are two relatively big issues that have been brought to the floor in the last 18 months. one relates to nato's nato partners meeting their 2% commitment. the question i had, okay, 2% have a limited number of them actually meeting that. but what does that mean dollar wise. and we did ask the state department and in 2016 that shortfall was about 122 billion worth of defensive spending. now, in 2017 according to testimony, they've increased spending about 14.4 billion. decided to go up another 10 billion in 2018. so now the shortfall is about 98 billion. we're told that over the period from 2019 to 2024, another $35.5 billion shortfall will be

filled, leaving $62 billion shortfall eight years after in 2016. so just kind of puts that into perspective in terms of what that actually is. and as i've discussed this with our european allies and friends and partners, i always try to make the point. this isn't just president trump making this point. he's really speaking for the american public. if europe expects america to be steadfast in our relationship, the least europe can do is spend that 2% and contribute their fair share. the other point i want to make and the other bone of contention obviously is trade. we hear the massive trade deficits. the fact of the matter is we export -- in 2017 we exported about $5,000,000,028 into the eu. we left goods and service of 101

billion. that's about 19% of what we export. i understand that the president is trying to recess our trading relationship shock, our european partners into really reducing tariffs. i think the best term that the president is introducing in this debate is reciprocal treatment. it would be great if we could have total reciprocity in our trading relationship with no trade barriers, whether tariff or non-tariff barriers. that's a worthy goal. i hope we can achieve that goal as quickly as possible. dr. mitchell, i also did read your speech to the heritage foundation. and just kind of -- i don't want to steal your thunder, but i thought it was pretty salient because i don't think it's included in your testimony that you said it's coming into 2017 administration inherited a failed russian recess. a conflict in ukraine that

already cost 10,000 lives. a failed red light in syria. the largest migration wave in recent european history. an eve that was navigating and iran agreement that helped enable an expansion not seen since antiquity. these are enormous challenges. we still face them. new challenges are growing every day. i'm 63 years old. i really can't remember a world that seems to be so disstabilized. so many threats coming from so many different directions. i think this will be an interesting conversation and i turn it over to ranking member f murphy. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. thank you ambassador for being with us here today. as i hope you know, i tell visitors into my office from europe regularly how lucky we are that you have chosen to take

up this very difficult assignment. i want to update you on recent news with respect to agreement with greece and macedonia which hopefully paves the way for macedonia institutionse again, i thank you for your service and your willingness to serve. that being said, we had a nominee to the ambassador before this committee last week. and it's fairly ridiculous that it took a year and a half to get an ambassador to brussels. but he characterized the moment that we are in today with respect to the u.s.-europe relationship as just part of the normal ups and downs in the transatlantic relationship. this simply is not true. the relationship between the united states and europe is in crisis. it has never been this bad in the post war era. it is getting worse by the

month. and i it collapses, as i would argue it is on pace to do, then the entire world order, based upon a joint u.s.-europe drive for democracy to the world collapses as well. i know this sounds hypervolumic, but i really do thinks the stakes are high. i think the state of the relationship, if it is a relationship these days, is in that bad a state. i don't have time to run through the gauntlet of abuses that the president has had. he has unilaterally backed out of the two most important diplomatic achievements, the paris accord andhe iran nuclear agreement. he started a trade war that the chairman referenced with europe for the global economic add strer sayre res, rather than -- adversaries rather than partners. the undisputed leader of the eeu. he cheers the breakup of the

union parading around like some sort of revolutionary hero. he tries to open rather than heal racial and ethnic divides and he recently says russia should rejoin the g7 about what message that would send given the fact that russia's behavior has gotten worse, not better. this has all led to one of the greatest friends of the u.s.-european relationships to say is put in interfering and trying to destabilize the policies of the eu. but trump at the moment is far worse. the president's hostility towards the eu is making the challenges that we face jointly all the more difficult from brexit to the rise of populism, tensions in the balkins and fighting terrorism. the united states should be

standing side by side with our allies in europe. not trying to break apart this relationship. i hope that you will continue to serve as a bowl work against the worst of these attacks from this president. but you and the other supporters of the u.s. eu alliance are losi ts argument within the administration badly so far. we're very lucky to have you and many others trying to win that argument. but unfortunately you've come out on the wrong side. and i look forward to exploring some of these topics over the course of this hearing. >> thank you, senator murphy. dr. wes mitchell is the assistant secretary of state for european affairs. he spent 12 years building the senator for european policy. he is the author of books geo politics. he received his phd in germany.

so, secretary mitchell, don't be constrained by the five minutes. give us your full opening statement and we'll start with questions. >> thank you, senator johnson and senator murphy. members of the committee. i appreciate you calling today's hearing. i am very happy to have this opportunity to talk about the strategy that is guiding these administrations approach to europe and euroasia. next year will mark three decades since the fall of the berlin wall. as we celebrate the triex, we must -- triumph, we must remind ourselves it was not inevitable. it was prolonged effort by the united states and our european allies. i think it's now very clear in retrospect that history did not end in 1989. today, as both these senators have mentioned, europe is, once

again, a theater of strategic competition. europe today faces pressure on multiple front. strategic campaigns from russia and china. record waves of migration. iranian ambitions in the mediterranean. ou europe strategy begins by acknowledging that america and europe must take the reality of strategic competition seriously. our goal is -- was outlined by president trump in warsaw, and that is to sprepreserve the wes. we cannot succeed in that task without europe, which together with the united states is the west and the heart of the free world. preserving the west begins with strengthening our physical defenses. the united states has demonstrated our resolve by reaffirming our commitment to nato article 5 and putting real -- we're providing military assistance to ukraine, georgia, the baltics and other european

countries. for fiscal years 2018 and 2019, the administration has ruested more than $11 billion in new funds to expand the european deterrence initiative. our allies are stepping up. at u.s. urging since january 2017, every nato member but one has increased defense spending. the number of allies that will spend 2% on defense by 2024 has tripled. and the number allocating 20% to major equipment has nearly doubled. in that time, the alliance, as a whole, has raised defense spending by 5.1% or $14.4 billion. and we project a further $10 billion increase this year. the largest such increase in a generation. but material strength is only part of the equation. taking strategic competition seriously requires that the united states and europe replenish our shared commitment to the cause of freedom that sense antiquity has been the

west foremost gift to the world. russia and china both represent a coherent model, stability founded on authoritarianism and force harnessed to certain aspects of market competition and coingled with state-run plittization of the economy. both russia and china want to break the west. russia wants to splinter it and china wants us to plant it. one place where they are especially aggressive is in central and eastern europe. our first priority here is to check russian aggression. in recent years, a gremlin has attempted to forcefully redraw borders, intimidated and attack neighbors, launch information and cyber campaigns against the west and engaged in military buildups on the western frontiers. . . .

>> since january 2017 we brought sanctions against russian individuals and entities. in response to the attack the united kingdom we helped organize the largest expulsion of russian spies in history was that more than a hundred 50 spies back to russia. the partnership for your leading the u.s. government's effort to counter this information. we demand the russian government uphold its commitment allows citizens to exercise their freedoms without fear of retribution. the parallel, were building the means of self-defense where the frontier states most directly threatened. we've lifted the previous restrictions and help the states

improve. simultaneously, were striving to keep ukraine on the path of reform. by urging the leaders to adopted anticorruption court and to set guest tariffs for market prices. were working to strengthen economic engagements with georgia. across the eastern frontier and into the heart of the basis were working to build stronger long-term relations against the chinese inroads that we can our security and under mine the ties to our quest. were look working with allies and to combat corruption improve military readiness, diversified supplies like a southern gaffe court or in the pipeline. an increase regional coordination.

throughout the region were animated by the needs outlined in the national security strategy to compete for positive influence. nations have greater strategic influence and in the past. the memory of 1989 is fading. we must be diligent to defend western principles. we must be willing to engage diplomatically than we did in the recent past. criticism is a recipe for strange men. we must provide a viable alternative to allies and reach out constructively. europe's southern frontier, the mediterranean basin is another point of strategic focus. rallying the allies to take the southern frontier more seriously will be a focus of the upcoming nato summit. were working with allies to increase and coordinate contributions in the middle east and secure the borders, get the more deeply engaged in counterterrorism the eastern mediterranean imposes a particular challenge.

russia has increase its presence in the seeking to solidify its presence. turkey faces challenges. a steadfast challenge to defeat isis and counterbalance iran. we look forward to working with the newly elected president making clear the issues need to be resolved. our media concerns are to conserve the release of pastor andrew and other unjustly detained u.s. citizens and staff to prevent this 400 system and develop a motive for our respective forces and local partners in stabilizing northern syria preventing isis return. we encourage the president to implement his pledge to lift turkey's ongoing state of emergency and take additional measures to ensure to look at

turkey's democracy. in parallel, were constructing a long-term strategy to bolster the presence of the eastern mediterranean. were cultivating grease in the western balkans and working to systematically strengthen security. were also increasing u.s. engagement in the western balkans. through active u.s. diplomacy with the e.u. we supported the prime minister in achieving a historic breakthrough in the grease name dispute. we helped open up communication channels and are promoting re and all o the areas anchoring the western alliance and stabilizing the south were committed to finding a way forward. the past nine months i've made 29 visits to european countries and given more than 22 speeches. through the outreach i've seen what unites the west is far greater than what divides us.

strong u.s. relations may not lead to immediate agreement with allies, but long-term process far outweigh the short-term benefits through the appearance of political unity. my msashe same, we must act. we cannot do for action on things that make the west weaker. a path is of strategic renovation. doing the hard work of strengthening the west now so we don't have to later on terms much more favorable. to preserve is to act. i'm committed to doing that and i'm convinced we will succeed with europe together. thank you. >> i just want to ask one question and i'll turn it over to murphy. we had an interesting conversation and i asked previously to what extent do we know the dollar investment that

china is making into all of europe in particular central europe. you gave me a figure on that and he mentioned a few times the pressure of the influence of both russia and china trying to yield within europe. we talked about hungry. can you tell us how much china is investing and how strategic their investment is and give us your thoughts and what's happening with hungry. >> the chinese investment is strategic and growing. the exact dollar amounts are hard to pin down. a good estimate is between 2005 and 2017 people's republic of china invested more than $24.19 billion in the 16 plus one countries that form central and eastern europe. to give you a sense of perspective on this, china is the primary financer of high-speed rail rate link

between budapest and belgrade valued at $3.8 billion alone. the united states and general overseas between 40 and 60 billion worldwide. if you're looking at the aid we put out a something like $1.13 billion total. including supplemental funding. the scale what the chinese are putting in is considerable. the debt diplomacy. they wait until countries can service the debt claim the infrastructure. they're sharpening their outreach and are competing for influence.

from the u.s. and western perspective, we have to acknowledge that we have lost ground in central and nation europe. eighty-nine is a distant memory for a lot of people. one of the most serious objectives we need to have is the 30th anniversary of 1989 a magnificent opportunity for the u.s. through diplomacy and aid to reengage hearts and mind in that region. endeavor that will take focus and effort and i look forward to working with this committee to increasing the western presence. >> you encourage me and i made some trips paid attention to them. if you did a great them anytime soon is another question. we also talked about hungry in poland. both leaders have come under criticism from my standpoint you

have a policy a positive engagement. can he speak to that. >> i think we have to engage. we have lost ground in part because our rivals are showing -- but in part because of unforced error in our part. i would start from zero and say to your point that we did d prioritize central europe as a strategic -- we did that for good reasons at the time from 2009 onward we had to reset. we were deemphasizing europe militarily and diplomatically. the russian and chinese were not. many countries in the region you see the russians and chinese have gained yardage. in the past when the united states has been harder on our allies then we are in russia i think thas a mistake.

in our approach going forward we try to strike a balance. we have to be clear about her principles and what we stand for. we will never stop. we have to balance that with increased diplomatic engagement. chinese and russians are in these countries at regular times. spending money on infrastructure. if we show up occasionally into nothing but criticize we can lose ground. we haveo strike the balance carefully and we have to get back into the game and compete for hearts and minds. >> thank you. >> thank you mr. chairman. i think our strategy with respect to europe is a total debacle. it's not your fault. i understand you do not's share the views of this president with the respective the the taxis

launched on europe are some of the policies he's make implementing with russia. you're the only one we can ask. when we try to get clarification on what the policy is. let's start with russia. theresident recently announced a new u.s. policy to bring russia back into the g-7. that would reverse the previous policy of requiring russia to implement the mintz agreement before being invited back into join the g-7. why did our policy change? >> thank you for the question. on our approach to europe it's well articulated in the speech and his starting point is to say that we are not going to strengthen the west by continuing the polite fiction of some areas of policy that are weakening us.

and preventing the united states from wanting to stay engaged long-term. so imbalances and trade, all of these have been positions we staked out forcefully becau if you don't address those things in the years ahead the west will be worst off. on russia, the administration has been clear that the door to dialogue is open. we stated that it various levels. we've looked at ukraine, and improvement in the relationship can only happen when russia stops aggressive behavior. we been disappointed in the government's unwillingness to accept responsibility. with regard to upcoming developments that apartment has nothing to announce at this time. what we been clear on is an approach to russia open to dialogue but doesn't sacrifice.

>> the president expressed his desire for the g-7 to bring russia back in with no preconditions you are not in charge of u.s. foreign policy, the president is. he announced his desire is to bring russia back in without preconditions. we all watched him say that on tv. is that not the president's position? >> i think that's extrapolating. this is one of the world's largest nuclear power so we have to be open to dialogue. we have to reach out to keep channels open. this administration in the past year and a half have taken a tough stance on russia than the previous administration dead in its first six months. six years. i record on russia if you judge by the actions a stance taken on

sanctions, what were doing to buck up our allies we have a good record in the administration got draped kicking mainstream to implement the sanctions by people on the panel. so to say that their leading sanctions you're forced to put into place, i have great respect for you, i think that is stretching the bounds of how this played out. the president recently tweeted that the people are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the coalition. crime is way up in germany, up 10% since migrants were accepted. other countries are worse, be smart america. this is exceptional that the president is opening campaigning against the leader of the most

important country inside of europe tweeting that germany is turning against their leadership. we know statistics you reference are not true. crime is down 10% not up. why is the president openly trying t honor mine chancellor merkel support in germany. how does that support u.s. objectives? >> the situation with migration is when we have to take seriously. in the last few months in italy, austria, germany and france they have been clear that they want stronger borders. they want to protect the nationstate. >> this is a very personal attack on chancellor merkel. he's saying the people are turning against chancellor merkel and using his social media voice to criticize her into cheer those that are

politically opposing her. side-by-side with an ambassador to germany who is openly stated he's going to use his position to help conservatives across the continent politically. my question is not about the position on gratian. the question is, why is the president weighing in on the political circumstances? why is he using his voice to politically undermine the chancellor? you can disagree if you don't think the tweet is doing that. but it's really sounds that that he's trying to undermine the chancellor. >> i interpreted the tweet to be an expression of concern about the state of migration in the western world generally. we have been slow to wake up to this challenge. it's a divisive issue. as i understand the president statements we have to take migration seriously.

irregular migration in europe is challenging societies at all levels economically, socially and it cannot be addressed by saying the doors wide open without serious public policy discussion about how we regulate and moderate the flow of migrants. on ambassador canal, his comments were taken out of context. he has made clear he is not endorsing any candidate or political party. we have a robust dialogue on many areas. and expect that i like to continue. the ambassador has since clarified his comments noted it is not u.s. policy and he was making general observations. my focus overall is to increase engagement in all areas possible. we have a very strong bilateral relationship with germany. many areas in counterterrorism

and trade. i take the long view and they have been through a lot of storms in history. that should not lull us into complacency. we have to be proactive. the re- the relationship is more healthy than often made out. >> thank you mr. chairman. i appreciate the hearing. >> the first has to do with something that might be a u.s. priority and that is how to squeeze investment. china has invested about 23 billion and we have a process in this country, while imperfect it allows us just screen. i was recently in europe talking

about issues including information on how were coordinating to push back against russia disinformation. this issue came up. there was an interest on behalf of countries working with us to help understand how we could come up with a way to view investments for national security perspective. my first question is if you could work on that and how you feel about that. has the state department done anything to share best practices and prevent adversaries from using commercial tools to undermine national security? >> it is a timely question. when i was in the czech republic we held a meeting and this was an item of discussion. we are working closely through our embassies. there are different ways to go

about creating a national security filter. different models that can be used. the point of emphasis is to find a mechanism by which allied governments can draw the differentiation between investments that are purely commercial and those that are animated or could create a pathway of abuse to national security concerns. we are an active ongoing dialogue and in central europe particularly importance and i've been closely engaged. >> i encourage you to do that. for those listening wondering why this is a big deal, it is a backdoor to the united states. european firms be owned by a company that might have a national security interest in obtaining technology in the united states we can contract that country that's not gone through that process. we could circumvent our process here. support and for us and our

allies. i hope you will work with them on that. it's in our interest that they have a screen. with regard to u.s. russia relations. there is a point earlier that you could look at the rhetoric or the results. it is impressive in terms of what this administration can do in terms of pushing back in specific areas. sanctions were talked about congress is more forward leaning but they did send the legislation. sanctions are appropriate is not just crimea but other issues, i think that's appropriate to keep sanctions in place. with regard to providing lethal weapons to the ukrainians to defend themselves we work with the obama administration for years and have been unsuccessful. initially in the trump

administration there was some concern. my recent trip to ukraine i was able to see the results which was now the trump administration is providing ukrainians the means to help themselves. this was the most striking example of that. including anti- cyber packages to push back about what is happening on the line of contact and i was able to go over the easter. if there is a russian summit which it looks like there will be, do you expect the sanctions will become part of the conversation? what is your view on that? there has been criticism of the way the sanctions have been implemented. people would like to be tougher on russia. but you expect will happen? >> i know there has been speculation.

we are going into all aspects of the engagement with their eyes wide open. we remember the example of reset. we've had two administrations prior that started their term with the prior opening and then open their term with a regional war. it is not something we will replicate. on the issue sanctions specifically i read this carefully. they spelled out what would be needed. that's law. we will abide by the law that's been formulated. we have to say what specific actions would be needed to address concerns what's change in the overall temperature in the relationship. on ukraine, a matter of crimea

and cyber what's happening this syria it's clear clearly spelled out. will abide by the letter and spirit of the law. thbrder point is important. increasing pattern of a russia that abuses openings really in an administrations term. we see that often in the u.s. collectively both parties and certainly this administration is a live to the tendency of vladimir putin to abuse one-sided openings. i remember the open letter that several eastern european friends of america road and warned us that if we open the store to one-sided engagement not only will he abuse it but we would have a war on our hands. we step back on missile defenses, we step back on promoting democracy.

and we see the consequences. we had to reset and we withdrew from europe and that's important to keep in mind because we had a solid time in the previous administration that i would characterize as the perception of engagement. in this administration we have a strong track record. we have the opposite. it's often described as disengagement but we are very engaged. look what were doing on iran. we may not agree with our allies but we are in close dialogue, were committed to finding the joint way forwa and i think we will. >> my time has expired. i expected issue is president putin asking to make decisions about ukraine without ukraine at the table. that has been the approach they

have taken in the past. in your role, i expect views on this how would you advise the president on this issue on the sanctions than what's going on? >> i will not engage in hypotheticals. on ukraine, we been clear in our public messaging, what specific actions would be needed a part of the russians in order for us to live sanctions. we have shown our resolve in this matter at least by providing aid, beyond that, our overall mindset has to be that we keep the door open to constructive dialogue where there are shared areas of interest. we oh it to the american people and the international stability to keep open to this idea.

i want engage in hypotheticals. we'll see where the process leads. we have been clear about where the boundaries are. >> thank you secretary mitchell for being here today and for the good work that you are promoti promoting. in yr statement you say clearly that we seek a better relationship with russia, but it can only happen when russia stops its aggressive behavior. do you think russia has stop this? >> no, man. >> this week national security advisor is heading to moscow to plan a summit with vladimir putin. in the united states president trump is talking about having what appears to be a very positive meeting with vladimir putin. what kind of message does that centaur european allies about

our willingness to be tough with vladimir putin? >> our european allies consistently say to us they want the united states to have a relationship with russia. they see the need to strike the same balance and to seek engagement where there are relationships. balancing that for values. in terms of national security advisor's outreach. i call that diplomacy. whether that leads to a better relationship or meeting is up to the russians. we have been publicly clear what the standard is for seen a change in the relationship or on ukraine. we had been crystal clear in our messaging on the need for the russians to stop meddling in our fares. >> let me interrupt you.

i would agree that we may disagree with the motives but i agree the actions hav been tough on russia. overwhelmingly by a bipartisan congress and that has been important. there is a difference between what were doing and what were hearing out of the white house. based on russia. the concern i have is that talking about russia needs to stop meddling in our internal politics and our internal economy and yet, we have not heard this president even acknowledge that russia is meddling in and continues to metal in american elections. there are concerns about what that will mean for the upcoming

midterms. despite the fact the intelligence community has said that, and i think it number people within the state department have acknowledged it, the president has not acknowledged that. that is the disconnect i am concerned about. and about what message that sends to russia, and whether they will misinterpret what the intensive the united states is. >> i understand the question. i would say judge aspire action. our goal is to ensure any dialogue we have with the russians any interactions were doing so from a position of u.s. strength. we have accumulated that position of strength in the past year and half very well. >> the proof is in the pudding.

so far we have not seen actions taken to address russians meddling in the united states. i look forward to seeing what might come out of that somewhat. i want to switch to nato. as senator murphy pointed out, we have seen progress between greece and macedonia on the naming issue. what you think that means for the potential for macedonia to join nato? are you concerned about what were seen in the demonstrations were seen and whether that will deter the governments of both of those countries and their resolve in this issue? >> that's a critical issue. i would say that making progress on the name dispute has been a major point of focus for the team. yes, i am concerned about the potential for russia meddling.

we saw this with montenegro, russian representatives have been making threatening statements. there is a high potential for the russians to try to interfere. we make clear that we are watching closely. it is not in moscow's. to decide the future. were working to strengthen them. i'm in frequent contact with leaders there. more broadly on your question, the next steps are the macedonian parliament has ratified the deal, but it has to be confirmed by a public referendum. the parliament has to adopt the referendum. we didn't expect to see greece ratify this only after they made the changes. we expect to see nato extend an invitation to north macedonia at the summit in july. were hopeful that you will open

negotiations but that is uncertain right now. >> have you had a chance to talk to the e.u. about it? and have they given you indication of what they might two. >> we are in dialogue daily with the french on this matter. we are working to help understand their concerns and charts a way forward. i am optimistic we'll see that. i think everyone recognizes that what the greek and macedonia leaders have done is historic. if it is successful, it has the potential to be -- really, i would expect to see a tailwind from that and how we approach bosnian serb ear. we are committed to using that

opening not just on the main issue but to get a ripple effe effect. >> if there is a summit between vladimir putin and president trump andreryn pale will you be aising the president that he should raise the issues of russia meddling as one of the issues for the discussions? >> the issue of russian meddling is at the forefront of all agency discussions about russia. essential reality that we are focused on. >> are you where the president has in any conversations raise those concerns? >> i am not aware and we often don't reveal the content of all private conversations. i know they have frequently publicly raise the concerns. >> the president is frequently publicly has raised the concerns? >> the administration. >> reporter: but not the president.

>> i would have to review the record. >> i would love for you to review the record and share where he is raise those concerns publicly. >> when you're talking about dialogue, it's important from a position of strength and resolve, i think your where that i was encouraged to read delegation which senator shaheen was went to join as well. unfortunately, senator shaheen was denied entry. now senator shelby will be leading a delegation next week. i signed on to that. i don't know if they will let me in. my plans are in the air. i want to go. i think it should be a goal to improve relations with the power that has 7000 nuclear weapons

that is putting pressure on the baltic states and trying to gain greater evidence. dialogue is good from a position of strength. i like to try to improve those relations from the standpoint of strength and resolve. all of us meet frequently with our european partners. i have made more trips to europe than i intended to. in 2171 of the reasons i wanted to affirm in our branch of government a strong and unanimous commitment to the strategic alliances to nato and the e.u. i am hopeful that long-term those are strong relationships. toetame sense? i appreciate your testimony here by ignoring problems. i want to get right in, if

there's conflict involved, fine but get the problem resolved to move forward in terms of a strong relationship. is that the attitude is you're dealing with the parshe can' separate the short-term troubles versus what the long-term outlook is? >> i get the impression with mbs of nato and the e.u. there is a growing realization that history did not take the course that people expected it to take from the vantage point. the world is becoming more competitive geopolitically. the west faces serious challenges from china and russia and iran. the political willingness to engage those challenges has increased. this is not the first administration to raise the matter of burden sharing. what is changing is the urgency

and also a wake-up call for europeans to see things like the ukraine war on their own doorstep. 10000 casualties so far. the regular migration flows as a result of the conflict in syria. geopolitics is back. on a long-term basis if we say in a few years time we look back and say we increase burden sharing germany minutes to present commitment, that we got a fair and more reciprocal playing field and a framework in place for dealing with iran, i think that would be good. we can say on that basis the west as a whole is collectively better off. none of these things were working on and diplomacy are things that were approaching from a narrow u.s.

self-interest. in most cases there are things that we race repeatedly with european allies in the past. we want to make headway. >> we are making headway. when i first joined the committee senator murphy was the chairman at that time. we met repeatedly with european partners .. then discussions were about edward snowden, merkel cell phone and that type of thing. then charlie -- happen. i have not heard that since. it's a serious nature of the threat of terrorist past all of our societies and the need for us to maintain strong partnerships and particularly sharing the intelligence which is the first line of defense against that. to believe our intelligence gathering and sharing and cooperation is stronger before

charlie? >> our intelligenceh european countries and the nato framework is exceptionally strong. >> again, that's a good positive outlook. talk about the conversation we had in our office, the different approach that russia and china use versus the u.s. when it comes to investing in foreign countries. >> i think the russians and chinese have done a better job than the west collectively integrating matters of commerce and investment into a geopolitical or strategic vision. the chinese tend to view commercial investments abroad as a matter of state. my perception is the chinese attempted to approach these questions with a long-term

filter. i think in the countries of central and eastern europe you iet,the results of that. killful building up of influence relationships and investment that the chinese has undertaken. i think we have to acknowledge these are serious, well thought out and resourced efforts. we have to be candid. the goal is to undermine the western order both politically and economically. the west by comparison has tended to segment strategic issues in trade. we have also tended to see imagine institutional enlargements were straight-line trajectory that was an end of history that implied a certain amount of -- on our part.

euro is not a post geopolitical environment. were catching up quickly in understanding the need to compete. this is a serious and prolonged competition with big power arrival. counterterrorism will always be important but it will not retain the salience in u.s. foreign policy different 9/11 until a few years ago. we have to shift our mindset. that requires tough choices for our society. >> america we spend about 1% of our federal budget on foreign aid. in the past there's a few strings attached. china goes about it differently. i heard evidence where they will build the ports but then make a loan which the country cannot

pay off and then all of a sudden they own the port. is that standard operating procedure? >> i think that is an actor characterization. the chinese tend to apply less in the way of obvious near-term strings. there are strings attached countries can no longer service the debt chunks of their infrastructure are claimed. there are strings attached and there are less immediate. the chinese tend to have a more relationship -based approach many of these countries are corruptible and it is the single biggest problem even among ally states. the chinese are brazen and using those pathways of corruption. >> is a big difference in a huge advantage that half in making those.

>> to comments on this conversation. you and i have a different analysis on what hped in 2013 in ukraine. i think it's convenient to suggest that the it was a consequence of a set of american policies from 2008 - 2013. i can make a different argument that it was the success of the transatlantic relationship that brought ukraine to the point at which they were considering joining the european union that panicked russia and that they'll pay for for a long time unless trump gets his wish and there brought back into things like the g-7. i don't think there's evidence that russia's bad behaviors getting better. i would argue is getting worse.

you seem democratic backsliding that has been led by the russians. use in the united states outsource diplomacy and syria, big, major new investments in places like the balkans and levels we did not see during the obama administration. in the partnership between the russian government and the trump administration with respect to pushing trumps agenda. the shutdown was trending because of russia government propaganda who is pushing the storyline in the u.s. media. they haven't given up on their attempts to try to influence the american political dialogue. i don't think it's evidence there bad behaviors lessening. i think it's getting worse and worse. let me turn to the iran nuclear

agreement. i would love to talk to you about what our strategy is. the announcement that we were going to pull out of the agreement was not unexpected. the message has been sent that we are going to reimpose u.s. sanctions but also secondary sanctions. chance; others are attempting to try to keep the iranians to their end of the agreement. the bear my ball keeping iran's access to banking systems. my question is a bigger one. what are the plans to continue to rollout previous sanctions such as secondary sanctions on european companies doing

business with the iranians? how did the administration plan to do it they said witches, put together a series of sanctions that arse tougher than the previous. the europeans but no part of that. they want to continue the relationship with iran to get them from refrain from starting their program. we are unclear what the sanctions are. to most folks, it seems there is no hope of ever being able to put back together a set of sanctions that were stronger than the ones we had in place. >> on the first point, i agree i want to be clear in a public setting, there is one personal responsible for the ukraine more, that is flat amir putin. it is important to acknowledge the u.s. policy has helped to

create a permissive environment that indirectly aided many of putin's aggressions. the decisions we make in u.s. policy help to create a contact that arrivals can either exploit or not exploit. the reset was a part of that. we should not have a double standard. an administration can go for six years for a lopsided courtship. it is offense for this administration to talk about planning a meeting with the russians to explore if there are points. i take yourvell point. vladimir putin is responsible for the ukraine war. on the issue of iran, the secretary recently outlined our approach. i would argue it is a more comprehensive strategy. in addition to imposing

financial penalti focfes on engaging the iranian people, creating a structure for our regional allies. it is interesting, unlike art european allies are middle eastern allies were not pleased. they saw both the monetary and military terms how jcpoa created an opening for iran to be more aggressive. our focus is working with all of our allies to build a comprehensive international framework. what i have seen an hour interactions in talking about iran both pre-and post- decision, there is a fair and why consensus on analysis of the iranian threat. our european -- wanted to deal

effectively with the missiles, bringing revolutionary guard to syria. president macron had a four-point formula that are very similar to the u.s. approach. >> i understand that. you're talking about nonnuclear activity. we can continue to work with europeans on nonnuclear activity, but let's get the plainfield straight. europeans are not interested in re- imposing new nuclear sanctions on iran. they are interested in trying to hold together the set of economic benefits that will entice iran to stay in the nuclear agreement. that is europe's position. >> i think we'll know more in coming days. there is some difference of opinion among members of the e3. we will know more about their

collective perspective when we have more dialogue. but the self policing of european countries, and countries doing business in iraq, away from iran has change the equation. when european leaders look at iran and see their own businesses are voluntarily removing themselves from the equation in iraq, that creates a different playing field. >> it doesn't sound like a strategy of how you get the europeans into a different place than they are today. it's true they are trying to hold the steel together. it does not seem to be any strategy to reverse their position or any hope to rebuild the sanctions that were tougher than the ones we had. i know you can hope for that to be true. part of the reason that most of

that was they knew it would be unlikely impossibility. >> i would like to go back. as you know, recent electoral issues in bosnia have contributed to contribute sermons about stability there. i wonder if you can talk more specifically about what were doing to work with the international community to allow elections to move forward. >> i have been engaged on this issue. when i was in the balkans last week this is a point of discussion. we are working closely with the european union and other regional allies to use the small window we have to push for electoral reform. we are working with the co-op

and that will be the key to formalizing the people in a way that allows for stability and equal representation in a parallel track with nato we have supported the british approach in nato of lowering some of the conditions with regard to the defense property so we can have a clear path to discussion about nato prospects. on the balkans in general, i like to get back to the place we were when it was the main problem in the balkans. to deal with the name issue and get more attention i think the conditions create attractive opening for the russians to

metal. >> there is no doubt about that. i think the more we can do to help sav stabilize the situatio, the better. i want to turn to turkey. there are a number of issues with turkey that i know the state department is concerned about. one is their continued pursuance of the as/400 air defense system from russia. that would be in violation of past law. can you talk about what the administration is doing on that front. if turkey does except delivery of that system, when would we invoke sanctions? >> as you know i have been engaged with the turks on this. it is a serious matter. we have been clearing communications with the turkish

government acquisition of the as/400 which we would assess to have occurred when there's an old delivery of the technology. we have been clear that there will be consequences. first and foremost we will abide by section 231. we will impose sanctions. we been clear across the board and acquisition will affect the turkish military cooperation with united states. we have to put this in the context that this is a crucial ally partner. what they're doing to defeat isis is essential. this has the potential to spike the punch.

we need to say that a decision on s400 will qualitatively change the relationship in a way that's difficult to repair. >> i think that's important for turkey to hear. as your were i'm involved with senators to try and delay the delivery of f35's to turkey, primarily because of their holding without any reason, american citizens. i appreciate that at last week's ceremony with lockheed martin on celebrating the partnership that the state department did not send a representative to the ceremony. it is part of sending a clear message to turkey about what our views are, but i know there's

some confusion about whether planes have been delivered. it's my understanding dod officials have said we have begun delivery of planes. it's my understanding that's not the case. can you confirm whether any planes have been delivered to turkey? >> as you know, in this program u.s. maintains custody of aircraft until their transferred which normally occurs after a lengthy training process. that's helpful because it gives us time to continue the messaging. i think were in the training phase. we have watched developments on the hill and know what's being considered. we believe that we have existing legal authorities to allow us to withhold transfers. given that, we believe we continue to have the time and ability to ensure turkey does not move forward before having to take a decision on f35.

were being cleared are messaging that there will be consequences. beyond that, i request discussing that in a classified setting. the provisions in the appropriations bill are also on track for passage. there would be additional ability to cite the acts of congress in dealing with turkey. to the extent that we can make this information public, how many american citizens to we believe turkey may be holding in prison? >> we can confirm dozens of u.s. citizens, mostly nationals that have been detained, you are aware of some of the legal and privacy restrictions to discuss it in the setting. there are roughly two dozen detainees, most on criminal charges.

of that number, i think for have signed privacy waivers. >> can you talk about what were doingo try to address those improper detentions and who were talking to in the turkish government and the extent to which were bringing this up. >> the subject of the detained citizens it at the forefront of the agenda. it's important that this top service when we talk to turkey. turkey does have legitimate security concerns that need to be addressed. we have tried to address those including in syria. in parallel, we have tried to help the turks under city and that if they continue to unjustly detain american citizens, it will significantly alter our relationship. we appreciate the capitol hill

has provided leverage. we use that to the maximum ability and explore every inch. i'll use this setting to look at pastor andrew bunsen in particular. i've been in touch with his wife and family. we have looked at the arraignment terms that have been brought against him, there is nothing there. this is on just as we have seen. there are limits to how far we can go with any ally or country. we've examined every option and messaged it to the highest levels. most immediately, we are hoping and expecting to see president act on the plate she made during the campaign expeditiously to lift the state of emergency.

>> want to follow up with former question. i know the past we have often assumed that after elections it would be easier to deal with president -- in turkey. that is not necessarily proved to be the case. is there any reason to believe that he would be more responsi responsive? >> we have said that we respect the democratic desires of the turkish people. we were concerned about irregularities and concerned about the state of human rights after the election. our approach will be to find those areas where we can incorporate and strengthen the relationship. turkey is a strong ally a partner. we will strike that balance.

i will not try to look at a crystal ball. i think president -- knows what our expectations are about the people, the weapon systems and her relationships in the region. we will use every opening we can to message that. keeping turkey on a track toward not only the political west has to be a prime objective for u.s. strategy in the region. >> thank you. i appreciate you bringing up the subject of turkey. this treatment of the pastors outrageous. every member of congress is highly concerned about it. we appreciate your lead on it. and i appreciate your strong statement on that as well. my final question, we have not talked about the baltic states. i've been concerned particularly

after russians invasion of georgia and crimea, what could be next. our response about ukraine i hope is strong, can you give me your assessment about the dangers of russian meddling in the baltics? >> the dangers are very real. the baltics, the security as never been stronger with america. it sets the standard across the region for -- i think we have to be diligent in this area both militarily and in regard to hybrid threats. we have strong pathways of coordination with all three of these countries. >> we appreciate your service. in incredibly important relationship are dealing with an unstable environment and world. thank you for your service and

testimony. the record will remain open till thursday, june 20. this hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversation] , what someone.

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[inaudible conversation] >> here is a look at what is life on the c-span networks on wednesday. the house is back at 10:00 a.m. eastern. at new, more work on 2019 defense department spending. they're expected to work on immigration legislation this week. that's in c-span. on c-span two the senate continues debate on the farm bill. on c-span three, housing and urban development testifies. in the afternoon ceo speaks at the national air club. then robert wilkie will take questions.

>> this past week with the help of our cable partners the c-span bus travel to juneau in haines alaska. as part of the 50 capitals tour it continues across alaska to our next stop in fairbanks. >> most of us it's the only way to see the delegation hard at work in washington. dci is proud to carry c-span for a number of reasons, especially for their emphasis on education. from lesson plans and handouts and educator conferences, the classroom offers so many resources to teachers and adds value to the classroom. >> thank you to be part of it, the tour was incredible. i heard stories of driving up in the things they saw coming to alaska was a nice trip from what i heard.

understand i have driven it a few times and it is an awesome trip. were so glad your bus came here and using it as a tool. >> c-span is four years old, much older than me. what i appreciate about c-span is it is not partisan. you watch the sparring that takes place. you watch your delegations talk back and forth. it's extremely informative and very educational. one of the best things on the bus, i hope they take them with me on the tour. but when you look at the video people can learn and kids can learn about government. government doesn't have to be a bad word. >> join us on july 21 and 22nd work will feature a visit to alaska. t free c-spaneekend on c-span

radio app. >> syndicated columnist mona talks about her book, sex matters. how modern feminism lost touch with common sense. >> we send such confusing messages to young people. young women, i don't envy them. this was a story i put in the book about a number of women athletes who have posed topless for "sports illustrated". one of them i quoted who said, proud of my body and want to help young women and my feeling is, that is a crock. women should be dignified, they should remember that when you disrobe it's hard for people to

take you seriously. a man looking at a picture of a topless woman is not quick to say look at that fantastic athlete. isn't it wonderful she doesn't have problems with body image. no, he's going to think about sex and not think about her in a respectable way. that's why said andrea merkel would not take off her blouse to prove she does not body and issues. if women want to be respected they have to behave in ways that elicit that. >> today, the supreme court issued a rule and trump versus hawaii on the travel ban. the 5 - 4 decision upholds the policy of banning travel for citizens of iran, libya, north korea, syria,