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a pro pain-free absorb been pro were how solomon in new york and this is cnn and it is just passed 9:00 p.m. hours after an attorney for the former president did what he likely wishes he could but cannot because of again, gag order launch into a verbal assault on michael cohen, his motives and combustible pass the language was course from the start, prompting an immediate sidebar with the judge moments later, the defense returned to the colorful language cone is used on social media to describe his onetime boss painting, an image of him as a jolted former employee with dollar signs in his eyes also for the second day this week course of the former president's allies, some of whom were vp contender, showed up attacking the trial and cohen in ways once again, the former president cannot joining our team here tonight is korean ramy, a reporter for the wall street journal has been following the trial from inside the courtroom. what stood out to you today i think that moment you just described that with todd blanche sort of

coming straight out of the gates super aggressive at the beginning of cross very much stood out to me especially because of i think it was well, if the judge the answer is no or shawn shut it down quickly. >> and as we saw in the transcript, that sidebar, my sean said and don't make this about you for that perspective. no. but for the jury, i mean, i guess it did show that he was aggressive and his intention was to go after cohen, even if ultimately the rest of the cross are much of the rest of the cross was a little more toned down. >> you have a sense of what the reaction in the courtroom was or whether sure. how the jurors seem to interpret it throughout the jurors were quite engaged. they weren't sort of captivated at the way that i think they were sometimes during the stormy daniels testimony, but they were engaged. they were taking notes. they seem to be taking it seriously. at times, i had a pretty good seat of like being able to see the jury today and

lance would be asking about some of cohen's social media habits and he'd be talking about a chito crusted cartoon villain or some such thing. and the jurors are like studiously writing notes. and wondering like they just write down sciutto crusted cartoon villain it's very possible. it's robust. >> you said that you pointed out that cohen's testimony is essential to prosecutors because he's the only witness who is tied to cover up a hush money payment directly to trump do you think he was effective in doing so? and do you think in his testimony well, i think that's the big question here, is whether there are these moments that cohen talks about, that he is the only one who can tell that story, like prosecutors did the absolute best they could in having the phone records, having the pictures this morning when he was talking about the oval office meeting prosecutors would flash things on the screen. there was a photo of cohen at a podium at a lectern

and the white house, there was a calendar entry showing that he had recorded that he went to the white house on that certain day so i imagine there's no doubt in jurors minds that cohen was in the white house on that certain day but whether in that meeting trump had the conversation that cohen recalls having? i think that's something that jurors are going to be deciding over the next week of the trial. >> and for as much as as important as it is for michael cohen for the process the kitchen making their argument. he's also the biggest witness for the defense and making their counter-argument and saying that dlj i wasn't responsible for this there is so much writing on how well todd blanche does handle that when michael cohen is back on the stand on thursday and what we heard from this afternoon is that trump was initially pleased with how this is the only thing todd blanche has really done in this case. he hasn't really cross-examined anyone else at length or taken much of a presence. he's been there every day, but this is his entire job is to cross-examine michael cohen and to do so successfully, trump

was initially happy with how todd blanche actually did today. of course, trump judges everything that he really sees in his evaluation based on the perception and the coverage of it. so we'll see if that changes over the next. >> so just at that point elie, how did you think todd blanche did today? >> well, i wasn't impressed with him with just based on the transcript and based on our feed, we had a cnn i thought he was a little bit all over the map and current i'm i'm interested in what you thought because we've been focused very much on what was michael cohen's demeanor? how did he play in the courtroom? what was blanche like? because i know him. i go back to the southern district of new york with him. he was a pretty mild personality, like all of us. you can get more more jacked up for the courtroom. what was he like? >> after that initial aggressive questioning? yeah, it was much more mild. i mean, it wasn't timid. it wasn't he wasn't afraid of cohen, but it was called it was he was clearly prepared. he'd clearly been practicing for this moments but he wasn't attacking cohen. >> it's interesting for the most part.

>> you've seen a lot of the trial up close. >> do you feel that there is an explanation for this $420,000 other than what the prosecution has said that money is four. >> what's the defense argument? for what this $420,000 is for it just because donald trump felt like giving it to michael cohen. >> i think prosecutors were trying to squash a few possible defense arguments today in their questioning, they talked about the legal work that cohen had done or even consulting work sort of post trump's election. and it was minimal like they were trying to make to say defense if you're going to argue that this is what cohen's getting paid for. it will not cut it i think they made that case, but i think the question is not whether sort of what cohen was getting paid for or was this a legal retainer? it really is about whether trump himself directed these false business records that he

is charged with and that is something that cohen is the one who can speak to that and michael, you don't think it took me nine think the prosecution is prove their case. >> you don't think that i don't think they have yet? >> i think they're trying to with cohen. i think that's why weisselberg is such a big deal and it is absence from the trial is such a big deal. i think they've gotten to the part of yeah, there's some false business records, but this next step of did they falsify the record with the intent of committing another crime? i think that's where you put trump in the room where you need somebody to to backup what gold? and as current said, i mean, i think the the main weakness in the government's case is the connection of donald trump not to the payments, but to the creation of the false business records. i mean, we heard about how those records were knowledge if he had knowledge that it was being knowledge is not enough. he has to have caused it. now, he doesn't have to have done it himself. he doesn't have to have use the drop-down menu. he doesn't have to have put the

words retainer on the on the check stub, but he has to have engaged in behavior that lead the people who did actually do the writing to have done that, but can you make the argument that his behavior if he slept for stormy daniels and he wanted to cover it up and he paid the such money that that caused the behavior. well i think it's got to be a little more direct than that. >> i mean it doesn't have to be him saying file this. no, it doesn't have to be an explicit instruction, but it does have to be behavior that led to this specific act of creating the false business record. and that is to me, still the weakest part of the government's case. everything else i think is gone not into it is michael cohen saying that donald trump did approve it verbally when allen weisselberg showed it to him. that is really and it's not clear they're going to get much closer to that. so that's the question of truly it is up

to the jury and if they view that as legitimate enough and far enough, the word the language in an indictment is crucial. and remember we've got two lawyers on this jury, which is unusual that might really look at the technical aspects of it and what it says is that the writing, the business record is done with the intent to defraud and the intent to commit another crime and aid and covering it up. >> so they've got all of these things. they've got approved and i'm saying i don't think they've gotten all the way across the finish line with them, but i think if i'm not mistaken, it may say antony dive in, but when the judge is going to instruct the jury on the law and it's really going to be an or practically so it's going to be enough for them to prove that it was done with the intention of concealing another crime. and i think all of us one thing they told the jury is that there's direct evidence and the circumstantial evidence but both are evidence. so we don't need necessarily that smoking gun moment where someone comes in and here's the video was something else. you could have certain potential evidence may think what the strength of the prosecution's case. here's

what we've been talking about, is gonna be this competing narratives we have a lot of evidence here and i think the idea that the prostate, but the jury is going to say yes, he did this for the campaign and yes, he he he on tape with michael cohen and yes. david pecker also met with him and yet he signed all these checks, did all that stuff. but the one thing he didn't know about was about the pacification of these documents. i don't think it really makes rational sense. i think if you're a defense lawyer, your case, your counter narrative has to make rational sense. i think here it's not going to be enough to have these little next up credibility. it's not gonna be enough to say you really have a vendetta against the sky because for everything, they've shown, michael cohen and stormy daniels say about donald trump. they have another tweet, like you said, kaitlan, they have another more vitriol that's coming the other way. so really what we're looking at, a lot of folks from the defense table to the cooperators who were all kind of dirty. >> and i think but those document mental working the prosecution, it tips over to having a pretty persuasive case

current. i think oh, sorry. no good. i think the other thing the prosecution does is we have heard a lot the past couple of days about trump micro-managing, like they have really made a case that trump wasn't not only was trumping micromanager, but that cohen wanted that and really wanted trump's approval. >> want to trump's attention and also check in with trump at every step of the way, every step of the way that cohen needed trump's approval, not just because trump wanted it, because cohen needed it. >> let me ask you the former president has had a growing entourage and non-family members, but of various characters who are additional from vice president and other things the group that was there today, what kind of an impact did that have in the i mean, were they noticeable? the courtroom, do they do doesn't change the dynamic in any way. the courtroom they were noticeable the sort of courtroom benches behind trump have at times been half empty, right? >> when i was there, like boris epshteyn was just there

checking his phone and yet sometimes it's like that and so there's this packed courtroom of reporters and like five people from the public in the back. and then these empty pews near where trump is sitting are behind where trump is sitting. but the past couple of days, it's been packed that he has had all these supporters and it's quite noticeable. and at one point today, some of these republican elected officials in the middle of cohen's testimony, just walked in and it was so odd because there's a lot of rules in the courtroom that we can't just say go to the bathroom or have a snack or like do whatever you want or leave yeah. >> eat in that courtroom. and it was in a moment with michael cohen was answering a question from the prosecution and the morning break had ended, they had all all trump's allies had gone outside to do a press conference because you can, we can still have our computers. you could see online they were outside speaking publicly. and only a few people came back in after the break. we assume they had just left because the bench was empty behind donald trump. >> and then while michael cohen is in the middle of a sentence

in walks, byron donalds, vivek ramaswamy, governor burgum, and another campaign aide. >> i believe there's at least four people, maybe five, and they don't slip into the back and go to the back row. they walk all the way up to the front and they get in the second row. >> it wasn't clear from i was on the left side, so it wasn't clear how the jury if they looked if it distracted them, if it distracted michael cohen, but there was a moment where i saw the judge, justice marshall and i've been watching him throughout the case. >> he was essentially glaring at them. he looked noticeably annoyed at the fact that they just walked in and you just don't see that in that courtroom. >> it was the least i mean, it's a very ordered proceeding. and that was the least order. but i think i've seen in the past couple of weeks you can use our binoculars if they're in a sidebar. i mean, it's that strict and there's multiple court officers walking around telling you you can't be talking, you can't be on your phone if you're a reporter the public. and it was just it was a kind of love. >> you have been oculars i'm going your binoculars really

like those oculars actually more like special forces, things that like just that's important. >> marta's have them bring ramy. do you wear glasses current? >> do binoculars. you know, i don't have monocular is and i can borrow starting to think that i needed some. now they've been cracking thank you for having me. everyone is going to stay here. we may not have video of michael cohen's back-and-forth with the defense, but there is definitely heat than emanates off the transcripts. john berman joins us with that also ahead what was said in court today about with the former president would be testifying in this case we're trying to

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preferred better science, better results. >> how it really happened with jesse l. martin. >> sunday's at night on cnn if one thing comes through loud and clear, the transcripts from today's trial and it's something elie honig mentioned earlier. >> there's no love lost between michael cohen and the former president and his, if we had any doubt about that at one point, the prosecution had cohen reading tweets from the president and the months after the fbi rated cohen's office in 2018, trump had praised his former campaign manager, paul manafort and one for refusing to quote break. cohen said he understood he was being told not to cooperate. john berman join us with more of the transcripts. i know you've been going through them. >> what else have you fast, so

there was one exchange that caught my eye that gets to two points here that you've all been talking about. number one, how a little michael cohen currently likes donald trump and how much he wants to see him convicted in to how michael cohen didn't directly answer a lot of the questions, at least at first, the todd blanche posed to him. so blanche asks him, you've also talked extensively on may a culpa, his podcast, your desire to see that president trump getting convicted in this case, correct? cohen says sounds like something i would say blanche says, well, sir, i'm not asking you if it sounds like something you would say i'm saying, did you have you regularly commented on your podcasts that you wanted president trump to be convicted in this case. >> cohen then says, yeah, probably and then blanche says, do you have any doubt cohen says, no. >> then blanche says so why did you answer? yes, probably cohen says because i don't specifically know if i use those words, but yes, i would like to see that blanche says, and so yes, you want to see president trump get convicted from this case, correct? cohen says, i would like to see accountability that's not

it's not for me, it's for the jury and this court blanche says, i didn't ask what you wanted to see or nazi about accountability. i said, do you want to see president trump convicted in this case cohen says, that's what we just said. you're asking me if i want to see blanche says i'm just asking you to say yes or no. do you want president trump to get convicted in this case? michael cohen ultimately says, sure this is what we call pulling teeth. >> i know it can seem like cohen had a couple witty rejoinders there, but i don't think witty rejoinders play well with juries. i would've, if i was on the prosecution sayyed, i would have much preferred michael cohen when the question was, you've start on your podcast that you want donald trump convicted. yes, i have you hope that he is held accountable? yes, i do. you've wide yes, i did. when it gets into all this gap, probably how could it be? yeah, probably he says that every single day of his life. so it makes cohen look like someone who's maybe willing to just shade the truth a little bit. and by the way ultimately, the defense's pitch to the jury is not that you have to believe that michael cohen is a fantasies to makes

up things out of whole cloth. >> if you believe michael cohen just tweaks the truth a little here and there, throws a little, yet probably when the answer should be yes the evidence in this case is we were just talking about is close enough that that can be enough if you don't believe michael cohen hundred percent, you can throw this out. >> so i don't like those responses from inconstant i don't know if there's an argument that the prosecutors would make, but maybe it's too strange, but if cohen really wanted to ally and convict trump, he could have said in this meeting with allen weisselberg and trump that trump definitively said, yes. violet, as a legal absolutely. that's a very that's a powerful argument. there are several meetings thanks where he doesn't say that. trump said the most incriminating thing. the oval office meeting, he doesn't say that trump came out and said, make sure the documents are the the the business records are false i mean, if this is the argument,

this is something prosecutors do all the time, is they say if he was cooking up a story, he cook up a better story. >> now, it's not a perfect argument because you actually want a better story, but that does, i think help cohen's credibility the fact that some of these exchanges are suggestive of of trump's guilt, but not conclusive proof. >> and i think it also lins to the argument that offense might make a look jury, the prosecutors asked you to that they wish they could have made them a better liar that's not that's not where you want to walk walk into it. i mean, i agree with you on sort of the back-and-forth that it's game play. and i think sometimes we're the witness. you have to use a cattle prod a little bit and say, look, you're not the smartest person in the room. you're going to answer my questions. we can start this out. we're going to have a couple of days at this. and so i'm going to make you answer my question. that's what i feel like he because they live at the same time, he's got to walk a line of not creating sympathy and look like he's

going too hard on the witness because that's a dangerous place to be. so he's got a basically let the jury say, look, this guy thinks he's smarter than me. i've got to rein him in some and then get his question was so comfortable acknowledging his lies that he's told before when the prosecution was questioning and obviously he knew generally where they were going, what they were going to ask because they'd asked it to him before they weren't asking questions. >> they did know the answer to, but he was willing to say they'd purpose statement and you'd say yes, that was a lie. they'd asked him about something that he said publicly, he would say yes, that was a lie. what i told wolf blitzer in that interview when it was todd blanche, he seemed to be caged year and in those moments, not willing to acknowledge it because he seemed to be fearful. i mean, he's attorney he was before he was disbarred, if fearful that todd blanche was going to try to get him in a trap and that seemed to change the longer he was on the stand. but at the beginning, i mean, he wouldn't even acknowledge a lie was a lie at first, he was saying it was an inaccuracy of what he told special counsel, robert mueller. obviously, it was alive is deceptive, and then he

later did acknowledge it was alive i got better, but i will say though, that michael cohen, that we've all seen on television and the michael coleman we've heard so much michael coleman has showed up today, did seem like a distinctly different person than we all expected. so think that we had earlier is important. putting a witness in context, and yes, he's not a perfect witness, but i think if we all get asked a few weeks out, what would be talking about the first day after cross-examination of michael cohen? i don't think we would be parsing out necessarily the word by word, his responses in the same way, i think we would have thought of cost examination would have torn him to pieces that would have shown this guy can't be trusted. and now here we are saying like, well, perhaps he should have just said yes faster. so i do think if i'm the prosecution that makes me feel pretty good tonight john, you have another part of the transcript. >> well, look, money was a big part of this and there was the whole exchange about merch, they colon with selling on his podcast, but also how well michael cohen i want is done on the books that he's written, two of them about donald trump, at least tangentially, if not

directly, blanche asieh, how much money have you made from revenge? >> one of the books that michael cohen has written, i don't know exactly, but i would say around $400,000. >> and knowing that in the first two months or so disloyal, that's the other book made around 2 million combining the two books, how much more did disloyal make after the 2 million that it made in the first couple of months, cohen answers maybe another million. so blanche asked you made i'm not expecting you to be exact. you made about $3.4 million from those two books. is that fair? cohen says over the four-year period, blanche says, yes, cohen says it is yes, sir. so $3.4 million, there's a lot of money. >> bravo. bravo to michael cohen. i'm doing something wrong with my books. that you should go on for donald end up in prison passion in life yeah, i guess i guess well, i guess all in all it's maybe not worth it. >> right government, right but that's what should try. the financial point i think came through pretty strongly, which is this is michael cohen's livelihood. this is what he does. he profits directly off this end. i think there's a

fair argument. he has a direct financial stake in the verdict because what happens if it's a guilty verdict? michael coe, will do a tour. i'll probably have heavier market for his book watch how quickly the bottom falls out of the michael cohen trashing donald trump market. so he's got, he's got it goes to his bias and its credibility. >> it's just a lot of money to, for a book. it's a lot of money michael, do you think the jury is going to register that or use anything that's looked around to every report are in the room who had written a book and yuri notice going like how do you think that plays with the jury? i mean, i think they absolutely look at that is just another reason that cast some some paul of question over his testimony in a statement. i mean, does he have another reason another motive to say something different and he does seem to be i mean, i called him a grip drumming earlier, but i mean, he does seem to be profiteering off of this whole feud. and so now we know his property and off the off right in the books and i just don't i mean, i think the jury they're in there because they don't have these sort of

preconceived notions, at least we hope that's why they were selected to be on this jury. but they don't have preconceived notions about people. so when they're here this, they're listening to somebody. so yeah, i had all these problems. i did all this and i've made 3.2 million off saying these nasty things about that the defendant and then does that cause credibility in his testimony? the question i think it does. now, one other thing that todd blanche asked michael we'll call it about that. >> i was interested in. was he asked about all of his meetings with the da off the da's office, generally, even before alvin bragg was the district attorney here in manhattan. >> and he also asked him, have you ever met directly with alvin bragg and michael cohen said, no i've actually never met him, which i was told isn't unfamiliar. >> alvin bragg doesn't typically meet with witnesses. you'd only meets with victims, but i don't know where todd blanche was going with that line of questioning. had he said yes. >> yeah. i would keep alvin bragg separated from any witnesses, especially michael cohen, by physical force, if necessary. i think that just and you're right right. that part of the cross exam sort of fell flat for me.

>> i think he was just trying to say you're so eager to please the dia you are begging them to come in. >> you've been trying to cooperate with them for months and months. you've been hoping to get him indicted for a long time, which culminates and now you're hoping it gets in prison. i think it just goes more to the vendetta theory, but i agree. i felt fat in the way it came through to me and i do wonder whether but it's a guided by the client. right. i mean, so much of donald trump's framing of this case has been the judge, the da, right? it's the folks at the top that are leading the charge and i do wonder times whether some of that hasn't affected how blanche is thinking about his cross-examination because that's where i thought he was going to idea that alvin bragg is directly involved. you really are meeting with the folks at the top of the chain here. and i think it's completely fell fat. >> number men, thanks so much. appreciate it coming up next perspective from a retired judge on today's cross-examination, michael cohen, also in judge merchan's

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trump trial didn't go off the rail today with trump defense getting its first crack at star witness michael cohen, but it easily could have if not for some immediate action by judge m. or sean. we've told you earlier, he called trump's lawyer, todd blanche to the bench. only four questions in terrain in the line of questioning after it started off, ten sleigh with an expletive joining us now with more on that balancing act to keep things in line. someone who's known judge merchan from one 15 years, former new york judge joel kahn visor so what you make of what happened there with the first cross-examinatio n question leading to an objection and a sidebar well cross-examination is the beating heart of the adversarial process. so as a judge, you're going to take a step back and let the lawyers do what they do. if they ask an absolutely irrelevant question or something that is just beyond the pale, it's your responsibility to stop it, whether it's question one question for question 400 and that is precisely what judge merchan did. so when a lawyer says to a witness on the stand,

you said unkind things about me there's no relevance to that. the flip side of that is with respect to any witness who who has a bias toward the defendant in the case, that is fair game bias has never collateral. you can always ask those questions, but quite frankly, who cares what he thinks about the lawyer. >> but if that's how the lawyer wants to start off, like what's what's the harm and starting off that way to the defense. i mean, why would the judge intervened? the judge can just because it's irrelevant, it doesn't matter. it's not something the jury could consider if they can't consider it, you shouldn't be able to ask the question. it was a bum throw something along those lines, fire throw. i don't know what you call it, but it was just something that he wants there you go. mount. thank you. molotov cocktails. he wanted to throw it and he knew he was going to get that sustained. objection. hundred percent. i really hundred percent. what did you think of the second the second question was todd blanche was trying to go to the fact that michael cohen recently had said it's crazy

statements. >> michael cohen said he said the media is going to do facial recognition on the jury and track you down and camp out on your own. what blanche started to go down that line. there was another objection and the judge upheld that. we do have upheld would you sustain that objection? probably i don't know what it does other than to put your jury on edge, which is the last thing you want as the charge you trying to keep them as a cohesive unit for as long as you can. it doesn't it doesn't get it doesn't prove prove anything in this case. >> how about if the defense argument is just he's unhinged he says wild, ridiculous, irresponsible things. is that a fair line of cross? >> then it could be if he makes that argument, i would probably choose a different question to go to figure out whether or not we're going down in unhedged path and then try again. you see, judge, you see what i'm saying and i want to now ask that question then maybe, judge, what do you make of trump's allies that we saw inside the white house today. obviously, he's allowed are inside the courthouse. he's allowed to bring whoever he would like with him. but jd vance and doug burgum both it and moments outside the

courthouse this week attacks the judge, but also his daughter, which is precisely what led the judge to expand the gag order here, i've mentioned it's obviously difficult. i mean, they both add that they've made those statements that they were here on their own. i imagined it's difficult for the judge to prove in the gag order that trump had instructed them to make those statements, which it prevents him from doing. >> well, first of all, it is a public courtroom so they can come and they can talk and they do have first amendment rights, which of course we've sat on the show many times first amendment rights are fundamental, but they're not absolute, but certainly they can say what they want. but if you look back at the at the gag order judge merchan upheld when when donald trump posted some other things, people, other comments from other people, someone from fox news named jesse. i think they put on and the judge said, you know what that is a violation of the gag order because you are accepting it, you are putting it out there. you're giving it your imprimatur, and that's gonna

be a violation of the gag quarter so i think as a similar analysis here because look, all of a sudden, everyone didn't just descend on the courthouse. there's some conversations. i i pretty much guaranteed trump didn't call up and say, come on down and say these things. but someone probably did so is it a violation of the gag order? only if the people can prove and it's their burden that trump had something to do with it. but it is pretty curious and troubling that everything these outstanding statesman said was precisely with the defendant has tried to get out and is unable to get out because of the gag order, judge, let me ask you a question about the jury. >> we're now a month into this trial and there hasn't been a single alternate brought in. it. all 12 are still intact. that strikes me in my new york experience as pretty unusual in a trial of this length and does that tell you anything about the jury in this case?

>> well, does it tell me anything if i was able to tell what jurors were thinking or doing, you know, i i would i be a rich woman, i guess you never really know, but i agree with, you completely. it is unusual it's been my experience that in every criminal case, whether it's a misdemeanor, that's being tried homicide or this very significant press worthy case with the former president, the united states there are always issues whether it's with the jury, whether it's with a gag order, whether it's with people in the audience, whether it's gang affiliated, there's always something, but it is incredibly surprising that every juror is still involved. no one's late, no one had an emergency, no one has a root canal i agree with you one month into it and it's surprising what does it tell me? it tells me either they're wonderfully upstanding civic minded people, or it's just completely unusual and coincidental or they really want to be there or any any

version of all of those that's what it tells me. nobody wants out. >> because if you want out, you can get out on this. i mean, if a juror came in one day and said, i went into my social media feed and i saw something i probably wasn't supposed to see and it's tainted my view of the case. i mean, anyone could could have asked out with probably gotten out of this case. i've done cases less high-profile than this. we've gone three for alternate, steve. sure. and here we are not a single one, so i think it's a good indicator, just that the jury is focused and doing its job. yeah. well, here's a hypothesis. >> i would imagine a jury this committed to doing their job doesn't want to hang, doesn't want to come back and say, well, we just couldn't do our job i would think this is a jury that's going to try hard to reach a verdict in this case. is that is that a possible theory? >> possible. i would like to think that too, but you could have two camps that are entrenched and they're not speaking about the case. they are told at the beginning in the middle and there'll be told again, you may not discuss this

case. they're talking about lunch or they're talking about the weather, or they're talking about, you know, what their co-op board is doing. i don't know, but they're not talking about the case. so you don't really know where anyone is and we won't unless and until they go back there, they've been charged. they've heard all the arguments and they start their deliberations and then we'll know overall, are you surprised at all by the pace of things by how this entire case has been handled. >> i am i am surprised how smoothly it's gone. and quite frankly, the only thing that gone off the rails is the defendant who has goes before the microphone says whatever he wants, talks about his constitutional rights being violated when he's wrong. he's wrong every time he says it. and even today, the appellate division on an article 78 mandamus application found that a judge merchan did the right thing in terms of the gag order, that it was narrowly tailored. the order was justified and he used the least restrictive means, so they out and out dismissed his claims.

right there. >> it's kind of visor. thank you so much. it's great to have you ahead. how the trump defense responded today when the judge asked whether donald trump himself hello, be testifying adrenaline just like my shot of adrenaline right? >> school hard work meets ball, new thinking to help you see untapped possibility and relentlessly work with you to make them real when i was diagnosed with hiv, i didn't know who i would be, but here i am being me. >> keep being you and ask her health care provider about the number one prescribed hiv treatment. but tare the carvey is a complete one pill once a day treatment used for hiv and

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anything wrong. >> i'm testifying. i tell the truth. i mean, all i can do is tell the truth and the truth is that there's no case. they have no case. >> well if it's necessary well, i'm not allowed to testify. i'm under a gag. >> i guess i can testify the gag order's not for testify. >> do you plant testify in court probably so i would like to i mean, i think so cnas not going to testify, scan legal and i'm not illegal. >> analysts, but i can tell you that this legal analyst, norm eisen, was also so the coordinate today he wants investigated trump as counsel to house democrats in the first impeachment is litigated cases involving trump previously, he's also the author of trying trump, a guide to his first election interference, criminal trial. >> norm do you think trump will testify? >> anderson, i hope you're not going to replace me as a cnn legal analyst because you hit the nail hello. on their head there? >> no, no, no way that he is

going to testify and his lawyers won't allow it. >> of course he is known to override his lawyers. it would be suicide for him to do that it not only would harm him in the case in chief, or at least they haven't argument, they can make in my view, the prosecution just cleared the proof beyond a reasonable doubt hurdle with cohen's testimony, solidified it with cohen's very solid performance today on cross but on sentencing, if trump is found guilty, if the judge believes that he got on the stand and lied to him and his jurors. it virtually assures a sentence of incarceration. so i think that even trump is not foolish enough to make that decision i know. >> you love a good legal frehse. explain how the prosecution was drawing the sting today yes. >> my eye write a cnn trial

diary for every day of trial and today was about drawing the staying. it's a trial lawyer for term. elie did it often with some of his more dubious witnesses that he had to put on as a prosecutor it's fronting all of the bad news. so that the jury doesn't hear the negatives that michael cohen lie, that he's pled guilty to nine felonies, that one of those felonies was for perjury it's getting all this all out there and they did a very sophisticated job susan hoffinger learning from her misadventures on the stormy hey, daniel's direct was very adept and it actually was sophisticated. she planted a number of seeds that will only flourish when we come back on thursday on all of the main leinz vectors attack norm. let

me ask you about that because, okay, it's good to draw the sting it's good to front the bad news. >> but what about the bad news? i mean, what about the fact that he's made 3.4 million off of trump hating. what about the fact that he has said he wants this jury to convict? >> i mean, what's the answer to that? i have found mostly in my life as a defense lawyer before my foray into prosecuting donald trump, that if a witness is honest on the stand honest with the jury, if they fess up to what they did before, if they express remorse for what they did before, if they have a plausible redemption narrative if they're likable that juries will accept them. >> and i thought that cohen did all of that. and indeed he has one advantage over some of the clients who i've represented, some of the cooperators and

many who cooperate he's not working off time he's out so in that respect, he's situating what you mean by working off time very often the cooperator will be arriving from prisons, slapped in a suit and a tie to testify. but the their freedom depends on how well they do in cooperating with the prosecution. that's not the case for michael cohen. so that's an advantage. and i saw something very interesting today. it's the first time that i've noticed that in this trial again and again, susan hoffinger was trying to get cohen to talk to the jury and he started talking to the jury several times today, they put down their writing instruments and they just listened to him and it felt to me like a conversation you'd never know wellies constantly reminding me you can't read the minds of the jury. i did bring my jury consultant with me which i haven't common with travel,

susan susan nicholas, i brought her one day because i wanted her insights on what this jury was thinking, but i do think that michael cohen had a little bit of a bond that was established over his examination with the jury that is very dangerous for donald trump. todd blanche had to knock cohen afi had one shot at a first impression as my mother always said, you only get one chance at a first impression. >> he blew it what did your jury and consultants say to you she said that she did not think we were going to get a hung jury in this case my very first cnn trial diary was about trump's strategy one angry juror, what do you think? >> hung juries are very uncommon, very small percentage of trials turnout in hung juries. and she, there's certain telltale signs when you have an angry or an alienated juror or you look for the jury

michael knows this, you look for one of the members of the jury, smile it persistently smile at the defendant or wink or show some tail coming in and out over hostilely, who prosecution, she watched all day long. she didn't see any of it. >> how would you defense lawyer extrordinary have opened your cross-examination of michael color? >> i would have hammered him on his perjury and i would have gone for the jugular on the some of the bad answers on cross-examination nobody says oh the clarence darrow of our time, alina habba. but alina habba did get some tricky answers from michael cohen. i would have gone for the jugular right back for that having to do with the most sensitive issues for him, he pled guilty, but we saw today that cohen would have been ready for even

that that was one of the things that susan hoffinger drew. he had a good answer about whether he was honest when he made his initial blei, he said he pled guilty. so he told the judge he was guilty and he said, since i wasn't telling the truth to that, judge, but he explains he doesn't deny the facts. he was coerced by the southern district and threat of prosecuting his wife to plead to crimes that he didn't commit. one of the most distinguished judges of the southern district, judge ray cough as a whole book why the innocent plead guilty and the guilty go free that was what michael explain today. i thought it was very plausible. >> one of the most contested issues in this case is one of the lowest profile issues, which is the the business records himself do themselves, do you think cohen helped present the jury with an

explanation of how trump himself was responsible for creating the false business records he did he took us through the notes that allen weisselberg made of the gross step scheme. and then he put trump in two meetings, one with him and weisselberg and trump tower, another in the white house buying into that scheme, if you believe michael cohen, i think the jury does proof beyond a reasonable doubt that donald trump falsified those records, normalize and thank you. >> greg, saying a great account of what happened today. quick programming note this friday with hush money trial in recessed or miss a three 60 special my interview with karen mcdougal, i talked to her back in 2018 right after the story broke of her alleged affair with the former president's something he denies. it's the only tv interview she's ever done. watch the interview this friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. that's it for us. the newest right after a break when the competition is a nuclear competition, spying is

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