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we're moving forward with indycar. because we're moving forward with everybody. shell. powering progress. having with jesse l. martin, sunday's at nine on cnn just pass 9:00 p.m. here in new york, we begin the hour after the first of what's expected to be several days of testimony the former president's hush money trial by a critical witness, michael cohen, a former fixer, an attorney for donald trump. >> he testified today about the then-candidate's alleged deep level of knowledge and involvement in the payments and stormy daniels, as well as the alleged reimbursement of cohen for cohen says fronting the cash. but cohen's testimony is potentially undermine bypass that includes some felony

conviction and i'll the equally significant credibility issues we're joined now by lani davis, famed as a former special counsel for the president clinton. he's now the former turning current legal advisor, michael cohen, also former federal prosecutor, aly, how many is also joining us lineage? good to see you. what was your impression of how michael cohen did and what can you tell us about how about the preparations? >> that he has gone through before taking the stand well, i wasn't there, of course, but i hear that he was controlled and it reminded me of the long journey painful at times that i've had with michael since june of 2018 when he finally talk to me about turning his life and fessing up and owning his lies over ten years with donald trump and i kept saying, why should people believe you? that was in june of 2018? the next time he walked into a hearing room on the record on national international television looking at a sign on the wall above, congressman jim

jordan head. that said, liar, liar, pants on fire. and that was the congressional hearings that we expect him to be calm and factual and tell the truth and own all his lies. and do that in real time. and then finally being with him for the last few years while prosecutors questioned him and ultimately decided that they had this case. but following how they a question to him and how they prepared as elie honig knows, the construction of his case is about documents in about text messages and about corroboration because of course they know that credibility will be at a line of attack and that he's gotta be backed up in everything that he says. and i think that's the way it's been developed. and what do you think was the key moment today from his testimony there, the key takeaway? i wish i could have been in the courtroom. i decided it would be better to be in washington, not bad on my

way through the courtroom and be available to do this for michael but what i gather was a key moment for him was control that he showed. i know last night i perform mother's day dinner. we talked and he was calm but he was very anxious and has been been a lot of stress fear for his family, the president united states threatened his wife is wife's father is children have been threatened. so he's been through a very bad or deal, not to mention anyone to prison. and was in solitary confinement after he refused to sign a piece of paper, promising not to write a book. this guy has been through a lot of pain and all i heard last night was resolved to do what i said to him before his congressional testimony keep your voice down. tell the truth, and oan everything that you did wrong for trump. don't defend and do an attack. just own it. and the rest is going to be up to

people to judge, including the jury. i never bunch of other folks on the panel course it was my other one. of question is a question we asked its former daniel's attorneys just a second ago. do you know how many times he worked with prosecutors and now with prosecutors to go over to prepare for today. i mean, it must have been a lot. >> yes. >> i. was with them every time. a lot of people made fun of me because i wear the same tan jacket all the time, anderson, i had to try to get another jacket. we walked in and out of that. prosecutor's office first time to the first set of prosecutors. i first called cy vance and asked him to come up to otis, fill them federal satellite penitentiary. he was sent to interview them for the first time, secretly in prison. and that was in 2019. so count the years, how many sessions we've had with the prosecutors first piecing together a financial fraud case, ultimately that went to the new attorney general. which it's very 100 or more and sometimes

hours and hours at an end. so if i counted them up over five years, at least 100 or more you've definitely needed another job. i mean, i was there, so it was painful right. to questions for you one, you said earlier to wolf blitzer that every word of michael cohen's testimony will be corroborated, but is there a way to corroborate what he testified to today? one of the biggest moments there at the end where he said that trump did approve the agreement that he and allen weisselberg, ed, come to of how he would be repaid well, i think we had missed mcconney. >> hey verify that he was aware of the chew up of those numbers. that is allen weisselberg's handwriting and trump dictated well, the approval of allen weisselberg writing it up and trump knowing that he was not paying legal

expenses. rudy giuliani said that on television donald trump at first said he knew nothing about the stormy daniels matter. he denied the affair, but the fact of the legal expenses is going to be the key fact that the jurors just have to use their common x their common sense jurors. so go to bed at night and don't see snow on the ground in wake up in the morning and see snow on the ground have not seen it snow. but they use their common sense. there's no other reasonable alternative. donald trump in the oval office. why does this shock us? it shocked me the first time michael told me it was before the congressional hearing. i said, how did you get paid michael the money that you laid out for stormy daniels? he said, oh, he wrote me checks when well, in the oval office when i visited him as president, he wrote you checks in the oval office. where are those checks? oh, well, they're home well could you ask laura to take a photograph and send them to my phone so i can get them to the congressional committee. so what is the explanation that donald trump would say why he wrote $35,000 checks from a

personal bank account while he was a sitting president yeah. >> unless he testifies and i invited them today, to testify, he said he would testify. why won't he testify unless michael is telling the truth and he's afraid to test it. yeah. i have a feeling he's not going to get on the stand, but i do want to just remind everyone in this one moment because you bring up the oval office. i agree with you. >> i actually ask donald trump about michael cohen in the oval office. this was after the fbi i had raided his home and his office and trump had been saying publicly that the new york times just trying to get michael cohen to flip on him and just, you can see the level of anger and trump's face as he doesn't answer these questions. >> thank you very much everybody. >> thank you, everybody let's keep going on the other tapes,

mr. obviously, after that, trump had his aides band meet from the white house, but i just wonder what you think it was like for michael cohen to be there in the room with donald trump today and for donald trump to listen to that testimony. well, honestly, i listened to michael's voice last night and he sounded relieved to me and burdened because he finally after all this time he finally going to be able to tell the truth. what happens to mr. trump, whether he is acquitted or convicted is really not my concern, nor should it be anybody's concerned. it's up to a jury that's our jury system. and if he is acquitted and i accept that, but what i wanted whereas per michael as delta, his lawyer to tell the truth and get his life back. and when he called me and he said he was doing this for his wife and his family, and his country i believe tim because i knew he was only opening the door to a

lot of suffering that is going to go to jail, who is going to be vilified by mr. trump and all of his supporters and his face, nothing but pain. but i think there's something relieving about telling the truth and going through the pain of telling the truth. and that's what i hear heard in his voice last night its ally here. >> good to see you. it's been a little bit. i just wanted to follow up so almost exactly 12 hours ago, i asked you, is michael cohen going to testify that donald trump approved these payments in what you had turned the mob boss style, the general, go ahead and get it done, or is he going to say that donald trump's specifically authorized the specific retainer payments you said 12 hours go it was gonna be the mob boss style, but actually michael cohen did the opposite. he gave specific testimony. he finished up his testimony by saying there was a specific time. how do i so bergen i net with donald trump laid out on retainer payments and he said, do it. were you surprised by that? >> no. sorry, ellie, i either misspoken didn't speak clearly or i'm just playing tired. no, of course, i've heard michael

telling me that it was very specific. the understanding was he waited and waited. david pecker and the people at the national enquirer where telling them you got to pay it was panic setting in as election day approached. and finally, michael was waiting and waiting and then he got the instruction. go ahead and pay it no question. but he also many times got the code from donald trump and lots of other incidents that he testified to in his congressional hearing. so i think i was referring to that la lanny. >> let me yes, sir. just a question about the charges in this case this is a case about false business records prepared by the trump organization does and this was something i was a little unclear about from the testimony today. does michael cohen know specifically how donald trump caused false business records to be made or did he just take the money and assume the false business business records were made i'm

not aware in all the hours that i spent with him which over 100 hours in his prosecutors room that he saw the recording of those business records as legal expenses which made them fraudulent and of course enhances the 34 counts into felonies as a means of concealing the crime that i don't think there's any doubt that he was motivated for political reasons. >> everybody. i just don't get that argument on that any longer. and of course, i'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's innocent until proven beyond a reasonable doubt geoff. but on the actual recording of the expenses, i think it's more like the famous circumstantial evidence test that i said earlier he knew they weren't legal expenses of that is certain. and those numbers were recorded as legal expenses. so is he going to argue that he didn't know they were recorded as legal expenses when he knew he was writing checks from the oval office to reimburse a

crime and that is the what they jury has to use its common sense about. and the old song that i mentioned, if you go to sleep at night, there's no snow on the ground. you wake up in the morning. there's snow on the ground, there's no direct evidence that it's node. this jury is going to have to use this common sense. did donald trump really lie about there being legal expenses and then they recorded as legal expenses and it wasn't because of his instruction that there should be a concealment of the real crime, which was the crime that michael cohen went to jail for which is paying money for political reasons right before an election lennard davis, i really appreciate your time. >> thank you could i say one thing, anderson go yell. >> spent a long time since i've said that. so go yeah. >> you have a good night. thank you. thank you, everyone else does stay with us where the full transcript from today's testimony coming up, michael cohen testifying on the fallout of the access hollywood tape plus the former president brought an entourage for republicans with him today. >> the save the things. a gag

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their glob life is on the line right now to now distractions good serious still feel sky high closed captioning is brought to you by skechers hands-free slip in this tiny home trend. now, this is more like it. the same goes for my foot work. why one hands-free with wide fits, get your slip, dry white fit sketch are slipping the full transcript of today's testimony by michael cohen is out. he became the latest witness to testify just how scared the former president of 2016 campaign staff was when the access hollywood tape surfaced, one former aide who worked at the rnc when the tape came out, previously testified that members there were rattled than that she remembers conversations about possibly needing to replace trump as the republican presidential candidate. >> today cohen gave more testimony about the fallout and john berman joins us with some of those transcripts yeah, it was really the stormy daniel's

matter following access hollywood, that according to michael cohen, in rage, donald trump are really set him off. he's describing a moment when stormy daniels people is to be keith davidson and dylan howard from the acquirer came forward and said, stormy daniel's is looking for some money here. hovland, you're the prosecutor says, did you tell him donald trump what you had heard from dylan howard and keith davidson cohen says, yes, hoffacker says, and what was his reaction cohen says, he was really angry with me. >> i thought you had this under control. i thought you took care of this. i expressed to mr. trump, we did 2011 with the stormy daniels matter first came up, cohen says, i have no control over what it out and does. and he expressed to me there was a previous denial just take care of it. there was a lot going on at the campaign at the time. he was like just cake, take care of it, hoffinger asks, did he say anything to you at the time about how this might be viewed if it got out, cohen says yes, hoffinger, what did he say in substance cohen? he said to me,

this is a disaster, a total disaster. women are going to hate me because this is really a disaster. women will hate me guys may think it's cool, but this is going to be a disaster for the campaign. hoffinger, what if anything, do you understand it to mean by women will hate this and what his concern was. todd blanche says objection, judge. overruled. michael cohen says he was pulling very poorly with women in this coupled with the previous access hollywood tape, he just stated, this disaster and get control over it. >> i think we can put this particular aspect of this case to bed. i mean, it obviously was motivated by the campaign, the payoffs every single witness has said it it makes perfect common sense. this is michael cohen saying nothing new that everybody hasn't said before. and yeah, there's a couple of snippets where people said, well, he was worried, trump was worried about meloni. i was worried about his family situation that's fine. that doesn't cancel out, that they've shown i think more than adequately, that there was a campaign motive here. i just don't see any basis to say that there was no concern with the campaign. how could that even be? well, he doesn't

hearing this and jeff doesn't hearing this ring. >> this bell about attorney-client privilege. what how is how is he's representing? there's nothing me i am the prior. i'm a loyal to the president in his private lawyer, and we're having these private conversations how does this attorney for an exception okay. so there's a crime-fraud exception? and here's the only way that comes in, because now you have two lawyers on the jury who may know of this. the only way that crime for exception in comes in is the judge has dad to have ruled beforehand that there were some that that it fits into the crime-fraud exception. so now the lawyers if the lawyers know their stuff, the way my colleague you see you do in their mind, they're like, well, the only reason why we're hearing this is because the trial judge has already ruled that there must have been some crime here that there's now there's an exception to the attorney-client privilege. that's the only way we're hearing michael cohen is no

longer an attorney. >> he was disbarred as a part of those secondly, to that point, michael cohen's not the first person to testify to this, and this is a way that you saw the prosecution handling this today is a lot of what michael cohen testified to tech city read calls that he backed up, were once that the jury had already seen but hope hicks has already testified that trump was worried about what was going to happen with the election. >> we've heard that from david pecker as they anticipated that women problem hope hicks is not his lawyer. michael cohen, issues. >> they said it. so it he said it in the jury heard it, so it doesn't nullify it. >> it's a good question. i think the answer is this attorney-client privilege has been very much waived by both parties. i think trump and cohen have long ago suspended any claim that they're still covered by privilege. they've both talked at length publicly in front of congress here in this trial to prosecutors about what was said. so i think this has been very much weight, meaning given off by both parties younger exactly five hours, exactly. like it's long gone. what i don't understand what i don't understand in

advance and we'll see is i understand that. >> you can point out that michael cohen has this history of lying. you say lied to his wife, but which parts of his testimony will they try to go after? that's what i find curious because i think so much of his testimony is bolstered by other witnesses you can say he's a terrible person. you can say he's, you know, he's convicted perjure, but what is the testimony before this jury? that's false. that's what part here unless i have a little bit of the charge, it's the sample george, i don't know if this is exactly what the judge is going to read, but this is the part of it. >> if you find that anyone has has intentionally testified falsely as to any material fact, you may disregard that witnesses entire testimony, or you may disregard so much of it as you find was untruthful there's also a part here that says, did the witness have a conscious bias, hostility, or some other attitude that

affected their truthfulness of the witness's testimony. during can take that into consideration. >> all that all that is true. but the question is, was the money a reimbursement? >> i mean, that's it's just seems to me that so much of this case is proven, even if even if michael cohen is a terrible, let me ask you this question. i wanted to ask it to allow any davis what should donald trump have written data? so first of all, we saw the checks on the checks, it does not say legal fee. it's just a fee. it just the amount of money to michael cohen. so it doesn't say not all the legal three on the check so it could be that it's here. i'm reimbursing him and this is part of the reimbursement. so closure agreement. so what you don't want it to say is reimbursement to pay hush money to stormy daniels. so what should it have been logged under? but weren't should have been put in the books, something other than a lie,

which is that it was a retainer. >> they've done say no one said and we're says this is a legal fee. he's paying his lawyer back for money that is lawyer paid out to the phrase on the on the on the stubs is retainer that's the word retainer. okay. and it's not a retainer. >> you're right. it is not a retainer, but it could be considered a legal fee when it's a lawyer who laid out their money for you and now you're paying a lawyer back. i will say arthur, that throughout the test and money what you do see is cohen and others testifying that trump was aware of many of the specifics what was going on and there was another element of that in the testimony today. >> he's talking about setting up the accounts where the ultimate payments came from. the prosecutor says, did you call mr. trump before you went and set up the account to make a transfer, cohen says yes, hoffinger says what substance did you discuss with him on these two calls? for which there are car records for cohen says, i wanted to ensure once again, he approved wright was doing because i required approval from him on all of

this. that's what the sum and substance of the conversation was, laying out exactly what was going to happen and what was being done in order to ensure the story didn't get sold to the daily mail or somebody else officer, did you let him know you're going across the street and you're going to get the account setup and make the payment. cohen says, yes, ma'am, would you have made the payment to stormy daniels, the out getting a sign off from mr. trump, cohen says no hoffinger asks, why not? cohen says because everything required mr. trump sign-off on top of that, i wanted the money back. okay. so this is really important testimony and this is a good example. hipaa, where michael cohen is and is not corroborated throughout the states. october 26, about two weeks before the election. the prosecution did a masterful job of weaving in various forms of corroboration. there's the phone records that john talked about. there's certificates from the bank, there's emails that backup that that's exactly what michael cohen did that day. however, to jeffries point, how are they going to cross-examine? how are they going to suggest michael cohen's lying? they're going to say what you actually discussed the content of that phone call with donald trump

all we have for that is michael cohen's word and folks on the jury can you trust him at his word? yeah. there's other stuff scaffolding is a good expression you used earlier. there's scaffolding around him, but to fill that in, you have to take the word of this man at face value that's what they're going to say. he's not a fabulous he's not inventing things, but he's an opportunity to your right, your right butt, and just to emphasize that point the most provocative and interesting parts of his testimony today, we're about conversations he had with donald trump. yes. and for that, there is no corroboration unless donald trump takes the stand, which we all know, he's probably here for that how much he would sort of go into donald trump's office where he says he would go into donald trump's office even after one phone call to fill in trump on something that trump wanted to hear all the details of all these steps along the way for just about everything monday. >> okay. and that goes to the standard issue that comes up in cooperating with cooperators all the time. >> and your point about oh,

he's a terrible person. >> he's a liar. will who was inside and outside of donald trump's office for ten years let me give the judge, the jury a motive. >> you may consider whether a witness had or did have a motive to lie. they're going to show a picture of him wearing a t-shirt that has donald trump behind bars. does this guy have biased as this guy of a motive to put him behind jail. he's telling the whole world that he does and it will be interesting to see how he handles that on cross because today he made a point. it's several several junctures where he would make fun of himself or he would say, yeah, i had an ego that's why i thought that i should get a job in the white house or yes, i did want to benefit from being donald trump's personal attorney and i knew it would come with a lot of opportunities where maybe donald trump wasn't paying me once he was president, but i was going to get well this other access, he took these small moments to kind of make fun of himself or criticized himself. and the question is, how the jury will discern that they're essentially

expressionless during this entire testimony. you cannot tell they're paying such close attention. they're taking copious notes, but you cannot tell what they are thinking or how they're taking it john berman, thanks very much. i appreciate it coming up. the former president brought some political backups with them to court today, including republican senators jd vance and tommy tuberville. we'll talk about why with the democratic strategist james carville next would you have chronic kidney disease there are places you'd like to be like here and here not so much here far sneaker reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis our sega can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary hey, tract or genital yeast infections and low blood sugar. >> a rare life-threatening

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powering progress how really happen with jesse l. >> martin sunday's at night on cnn on arguably the biggest day of his criminal trial, the foreign president brought his biggest entourage, including number of republican lawmakers and least one vice presidential hopefuls entered. >> jd vance of ohio. they took the microphone during the lunch break to denounce the proceedings. >> what's going on inside that courtroom is a threat to american democracy. ladies and gentlemen, we cannot have a country where you get to prosecute your political opponent on its instead of persuading voters ventral into attack prison biden, who to be

clear, has nothing to do with his trial and take shots at michael cohen, which defendant of course, has gagged from doing. it already is now a democratic strategist, james carville, james i mean, she then won't be surprised that i mean the former trump's running mate auditions have moved to the courthouse not at all. what i'm spotted, it took people so long to get there. i mean, he got cameras, he got publicity, he got to suck up to trump of course, is zero evidence that present bont had anything georgia's prosecution, but i just done it took so long. my favorite to adamson was sent a tableau bill from alabama, who said that the manhattan criminal court was depressing, i guess she was expecting my cousin, vinny to show up can do. criminal courts tend not to beat are most cheerful i mean,

nothing else seems to. the latest polls in new york times show him ahead of president biden a bunch of key swing state right? >> i haven't seen in the last year, we've had indictments, we've had war as we paid foreign policy crisis at the post, haven't changed so i don't think anybody can say would much confidence. i think a hung jury, if anything, would probably helping but weirdly enough that it just duration seems to be stuck in a place and has been stuck there for a while i don't know all predictions that things will change a been futile so far that bob, but all i can tell you is that i don't know, but i think a hung jury would would would help him. i do think good him more enthusiastic be joined us huge crowds and it's quite concerning out there james. >> it's kaitlan collins and first i have to tell you roll tide because i see, your tiger

shirt that you're wearing right now, but i have to ask him speaking of senator tuberville for elevate from alabama but he clearly is someone who is beaten, been angling for maybe a cabinet position. if trump wins and is back in the white house, jd vance, obviously it would like to be vice president, others in this realm are going to show up. we know vivek ramaswamy, marco rubio. i'm sure we'll see doug burgum maybe at some point. what do you make of the fact that all these people who are either trying now to be donald trump's vice presidential pick or in his cabinet are in that second row of the courtroom what's really amazing is the lack of support. >> i think your son, eric, was the only family member and he kinda showed up for a day i don't think his wife will get within the same stadium here. but it's been amazing that no one has figured out which sentenced to vance and send at the tuberville. but for them, they got more publicity today, didn't have gotten maybe all year and i suspect that they were going to see more support

for him to trial because people figured out rather late that that the cameras that they can get exposure but it was really surprising is in a trump supporters don't show up. there was one person sitting now, they're supporting him, so it is a pretty lonely guy in that courtroom. >> yeah. it's only been maybe ten supporters outside the courthouse, even though anyone can go and eric trump, you make a good point because eric trump has been the only family member who's been there. he was back there again today. i've seen him probably three times, but politically speaking, you would always see a candidates spouse next to them in a moment like this. and i think obviously melania trump is not a typical politicians is felt by any means. but what does it say that that she isn't there? >> well, i it says a lot. i mean, the whole thing would baron was going to be a delegate and she came in and said, no, i i don't i'm not

privy to any other private details of their marriage, but it doesn't seem to be a very from a distance. it doesn't seem to be remotely are happier close win, but that's really not hi, my business. but it is amazing. i mean, if you want to criminal trial, you would think your family would show up where your friends are. there would be some kind of support for your emotional support and moral support, but it's really stunning how little he said until today in i think the cameras will draw some more people there. >> how do you think president biden should handle this? should he be commenting on the trial more directly or they're obviously wary of doing so, given trump is so directly tried to say that this is biden's trial, even though it's obviously not it's not. like just things not being covered. you don't need to throw an extra well-known a firearm in its blazing away. now and i think i agree that the president should stay away from it, shouldn't comment on

it but right now he's got to try to move some money numbers yet these poles are stuck in a ditch. and admin at way for awhile if the access hollywood tape didn't derail trump's campaign in 2016, why would a case involving business records for the stormy daniels pay off derail his campaign in 2024 i don't know. >> i'm sure it's a good question and i can't pretend that i know the answer to. i don't think anybody else can pretend that the node answer to it. you would think all of these indictments you'd think that the covid response even think everything that had been january to six, i was firmly convinced that it would done in by january 6, more people than ever think it's a tourist visit now so i'm totally flummoxed is how distinct stays the same, but i do know one thing. it just stays the same and nothing more things happen.

the more things stay the same and we're democrats are doing the president's doing terrible voters under 30 would with black voters, which are pretty key to this whole equation here. so hopefully, we can get something going here. in the next four or five months. but right now not looking at promising james, it's it's abby phillip here. i wonder. i mean, not now we know, hey, i mean now we know that this might be maybe the only trial that we see if donald trump this year is it time for democrats to move on and look at the fundamentals of this race and not see these trials as somehow this x factor that's going to have a huge influence on how this thing turns out in november yeah.

>> upside if we are doing pretty well, they shouldn't ratios and that's been pretty consistent over several months. i've seen a lot of senate polling and that does look good. but right now in the presidential race, this is a sticky wicked out there that's all i can say. >> if there are all these characters parading to the courthouse to maybe audition for trump's vp. there are some who were here this week some who were down in mar-a-lago over the last couple of weeks? beaks. which one do you think poses the greatest threat here to the biden campaign at this point i don't think i don't think trump's vice president natural kick is going to mean a

lot i mean, i think he picked pence because he thought it probably would put some validity. >> thought he'd shore up the kinda religious, right? a little bit i think that needs argument or not there's some argument that it did in 2016 help him in that response that's it. >> i said, yeah, i couldn't help him. so i said yeah, authority pretty show up and it might have helped. it might help some on the margins. but i don't you don't people come up in his speculated it could be this person or that person i don't see any vice presidential pick changing the basic equation that we're looking at right now. i really don't. i mean, what i'm hoping happens is recovery keeps going on and it keeps dig in deeper down and people started feeling it. but right now it's recovery to that people have denying that exist in it's a good word is recovery because you have come back from something. so we should call it a recovery. but our economic message and is not

breaking through. it's been counterproductive so far james carville great to have you appreciate it thank you thank you. >> it's a great panel. thank you. >> glad you in your orleans how the jury is receiving cohen's testimony so far and whether they'll ultimately by the words, i'm going to meet a liar reaction from the trial and jury consultant detect this living with hiv. >> robert learned he can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why he switched to nevado divider was a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable, than davon detect this morning to learn that most hiv pills contain three for four medicines. devito is as effective with just two if you have hepatitis b, don't stop to vada without talking to your doctor. don't take to vada. if you're allergic to its ingredients are taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects if you have a rash or allergic reactions, symptoms, stopped a bottle and get medical help right away, serious or life-threatening luck duke acid buildup and

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it becomes your everything are calling was to build trucks. >> and that's why trucks are what we do we put our everything and every truck. >> so that when you find your calling nothing can stop you from answering it today michael cohen also later, details of the alleged catch and kill scheme involving former playboy model karen mcdougal. here's what he said. he told trump after learning mcdougal was looking to sell a story about their alleged relationship, quote i asked him if he knew who karen mcdougal was, if he knows anything about the story, his response to me was she's really beautiful. i said, okay, but there's a story that right, that right, that's right now being shopped. prosecutor susan hoffinger, then asked him, did mr. trump asked you to take any action with respect to the story, cohen replied, yes avengers says, what did he ask you in general to do? cohen answers, make sure it doesn't get released. here's what mcdougal's said to me in 2018

do you think? the presidential race had anything to do with this deal getting done what i'm looking back, at it now, possibly, yeah. if donald trump hadn't been running for president, do you believe this deal would have been made with ami knowing what you know now, probably not. >> know. how often you're pretty you're convinced. now this was an effort to do a favor for donald trump in the last few months of the presidential race unfortunately, yes. it's tough cutting from that shot of me in 2018 to this, i'm just saying rather been ravaged by time as john oliver one said joining south jury trial consultant around i was to be or not appreciate you being with us. one of the things that the courtroom sketch artist who was here said christine cornell, which is something a lot of us have noticed being in the courtroom, is that the jury greene does not look at donald trump when they come in and

out. >> does that you read anything into that as a jury series? typically do not look at defendants that often when they're coming in or out but be sure they are watching his every move. so when he is shaking his head, they are noticing when he is muttering things under his breath, there noticing he might not be doing himself any favors by doing that because they're catching all of that and they're thinking, all right, you want to say something, take the witness stand. so i don't know that it's such a great thing. he's doing it. one thing i'd be watching for though as the jurors walk in and out. are the two lawyers muddy buddies because that is something now i'm not a believer in reading faces are reading body language, but something you can tell r what jurors are bonding with each other. and if the two lawyers are bonding, that's good for somebody. and if they're not bonding, that could show you that there's gonna be some what we do anniston honestly, because i've tried several games this isn't that courthouse there's only a couple of places to go eat lunch around there. now, i don't know if they're getting any extra security because of this case, but typically they don't and it's interesting to see who's eating lunch with who, who just went were nodal

said who's going on the brakes with who when they get a break, who's going to get a soda with who? and you try to figure and then you go back and you look at the sheet is that we're not oh, creates like okay. well, this guy's a bus driver and he's hanging out with this woman who is an accountant. and you end the truth is, we don't know what the heck we're talking about it's all it's all who knows who's going to say these people have been together there now for weeks. so personalities are kicking in. there are people that like each other. there are people for sure that do not like each other on i can to each other before deliberation or not, you're not supposed to discuss the case, but they have to talk about something oh i don't have much experience of court, but i testify once in front of a jury and i was interested that some of them were very attentive, some of them clearly were bored by just not wanting to be there and no interest. >> what i was saying i'm watching this jury as a spectator two weeks ago, they were intensely watching this. none of them in board to be none of them seemed to be thinking about something else. >> well, this is riveting

stuff. this is, you know, maybe the most exciting i thought my testimony was well, not that your testimony wasn't riveting. i'm sure, but i mean, this is just such this is a historical event that they're taking part of. and what you see is we haven't lost any jurors, which is extremely unusual in a trial of this line nobody is going to drop if they can help or not. >> let me ask you about something that arthur said very loudly recently is there's a jury offended, there's a jury you don't even need supply route here's there's a jury instruction that says if someone lies about one thing you can discredit all their testimony. do jurors do that or do they moore pick and choose what they choose to believe? luck, they make their decision and then they back into it. however, they're going to back into it, right? they look at the case holistically. >> and then if they have to pick and choose to reach their decision, that's what they're

gonna do. >> and that's just the way it works. >> fine, people going with their gut like i trust this person who testified, i don't trust this person. i like this first, i didn't like them where i didn't like them, but i believe what they're saying and going without rather than the minutia of i think i think people start with their gut and then they back into the logic. i don't know that it's the logical progression that you might think it is. so you know, how they feel about michael cohen is going to have a big impact. but i think he did some interesting things today. one, he had an opportunity to say that donald trump either told him we're didn't tell him that he had an intimate relationship with stormy daniels and he didn't do that. and i know you as a prosecutor probably would have said, well, if he's going to lie, he would allied better. that was a perfect opportunity for him to say something to bury donald trump. and he didn't do it. that shows these credible eye contact because there were moments where there are probably three moments where he would really look at the jury, but there were a lot of moments where he'd answer a question from the prosecutor and then she'd start and asking another one, and then he'd look at the jury to kind of see like how they how they took it, but it wasn't looking at them as he was answering.

>> does that make a difference in how they if they've trust them, i advise witnesses when they're testifying, do what's comfortable to you, don't don't if you're not comfortable making eye contact with the jury, don't do it. if your field more comfortable looking at the person that's questioning you, do that. it's really you have to be natural and authentic. that's the most important thing and testifying, i'm a big believer to renata as point in, just the gutting instinct, i think so much of this comes down to god. i mean, i had an experience where once we tried to case, we put on a really bad guy is a cooperator, and ten of the 12 jurors just outright rejected him, didn't like him, thought he was scary, rejected his testimony, that jury hang ten wanted to wait wait for the ending. now, we reach tried it they convicted on everything, including on things that were solely based uncorroborated on that cooperators testimony. >> so it's probably because they liked you, maybe just a little and they felt clips, but honestly, it could just be as simple as that. >> we'd liked this layer. we don't like to start is 12 human beings like this cooperator. we don't like an

optical, is it to have somebody who has lived repeatedly in the past? >> well, here's, here's the thing is obviously a huge obstacle, but, but just because he's lied in the past, they could say if he is credible about this, like i said, the stormy daniel thing, i think he did himself a favor but i think there was there was one interesting thing that he said was the $375,000 that he was getting paid. if you do the math and divide that by 12, that's 31,000 and change that sort of leinz up with the 35,000 he was getting a month, which is what the trump team is going to argue that these were legitimate payments for legal fees every month. so i thought that was a very interesting thing with this case is that there's there's almost like a crystal clear common sense argument about what happened. but then the legal part of it actually feels to me quite complex. and if you're on the jury, how how do you think the jury is going to deal with that? there's the part that kind of seems obvious. yeah, this was about the campaign. yeah. trump didn't want people well to know. yes, he didn't want to do it the right way because it would have been illegal. but but proving the

elements of the crime it's the dri going to have a hard time with that? yes. >> i think they're going to struggle, but i think we all tried to make decisions in the most straightforward and easy and simple way we can and one way they're going to start that process is they're going to go into the jury room and they're gonna say, do you believe michael cohen, but to your point, you and i've worked on trials together and i will be seeing this. it doesn't matter that donald trump has see anything else who's joe biden sitting? now i'd be saying the same thing. it's not gonna be easy. this isn't the kind of cases that you see in state court where it straight up bribery. what did he do? he told me you do this. i'll give you this amount of money, like even the menendez case down the block. this is like complicated legal issues that basically what they're saying is two misdemeanors outside the statute of limitations. if you put them together, you get a felony that's inside the statue of limitations but conflict with rd, but the defense made it easy. >> because they're saying straight up these war $35,000 legal payments, you either

believe that or you don't if you don't believe it, they're going to convict him. >> well, let me just very quickly, would you have wanted to jurors on the two lawyers on this? >> i am very squeamish about lawyers on any jury, unless you are really confident about what they're gonna do, look, we don't know the names of the jurors. the parties do they know a lot more about them than we do so they might know something we don't. stay veal. thank you. great to have your expertise. thanks, everyone. programming know before we hand off tonight this friday at three 60 special my replay of my interview with karen mcdougal's, you just saw i talked her back in 2018 right after the story broke of her alleged affair with former president, something he denies. it's the only tv interview she's done. watch the interview this friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. the news continues, including cnn special coverage of the trump hush money trial right after if you're living with hiv imagine being good to go without daily hiv pills good to go off the

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