side support blood pressure and improve heart health. rush to walmart and find total bee's knees night with abdullah. next on cnn closed captioning brought to you by mesobook.com her firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. >> if you or a loved one has been diagnosed with ms ophelie oma call us now donald trump essentially dares a judge to fine him or sent him straight to jail. >> this is a special edition of news night, the trump hush money trial. good evening. i'm abby phillip, and i'm kaitlan collins. we are here in new york and today you saw a tab lloyd king, who was all too willing to do donald trump's bidding, giving an unvarnished view of the former president of the united states. i'm talking about david pecker, the former national enquirer her boss, who

outlined in carefully choreographed testimony today how he boosted donald trump in his tabloids, how his entire apparatus blasted trump's rivals blatantly bogus stories and how he struck and off the books packed with trump to bury stories to bolster his 2016 election chances by bamboozling american voters. the former trump friends, but two plus hours on the stand today as the former president was there glaring, as you can see here in this court sketch from across the room. and what marx, a no doubt about it betrayal for the politician who most prizes loyalty and new tonight, donald trump is again testing the limits of what he can say and how far he can push the judge who is presiding over this trial before he is actually punished. now in a new interview, trump is committing what looks like and sounds like a pretty clear cut violence relation of that gag order that restricts what he can say about some of the main characters. in this case, who witnesses such as former fixer, michael cohen and here's what he told that cnn affiliate wpvi, just a

short time ago michael cohen is a convicted liar and he's got no credibility whatsoever. he was a lawyer and you rely on your lawyers we've got a whole big panel here with us today. but first let's bring in c in an anchor, john berman, who has been poring over these transcripts. all de jian, there you are. >> oh, over here now, you switched over. >> john, which just just tell us what is catching your eye today at this house. all right. so you're talking about the gag order hearing. first of all, i mean, all my papers are messed up now, there's a lot of papers and transcripts from the hearing today, more than 50 pages of transcripts from the gag order hearing. none of those pages are particularly good for donald trump or his lawyer, todd blanche, you've got very contentious between the judge, juan merchan and todd blanche. let me just read you a little bit of this. blanche, the attorney said this gag order. we are trying to comply with it, and there is no doubt that we are here about ten different purported violations president trump is being very careful to comply

with, your honore, as rules and the judge cuts in you mr. blanche you are losing all credibility. >> i have to tell you that right now, you are all credibility with the court goes on a little bit later with blanche saying, to the extent that your honor views the posts about mr. cohen and the system is being too close to the line. >> tell president trump, tell me, and we will make sure it's not violated. helped me help you. in other words, he's saying the judge says, as far as the whole distinction between reposts, you have stated it's ambiguous. you stated you didn't know, but again, i hate to come back to this, but you're not offering anything to support your argument. >> blanche, the attorney says, but you're honore. >> the judge says, i was not done never a good thing. you are not giving me anything to hang my hat on to say, yeah, you're right. the reposts that was unambiguous unambiguous as his the rest of our panel, who is here with us. >> we've got brian skelter, who is a special correspondent for vanity fair, robert gray, who was a former counsel to

president trump. lot of questions for him during the first impeachment stacy schneider, manhattan criminal defense attorney, and temidayo aganga-williams, who is a former senior investigative counsel for the january 6 committee, and tim, you have given what you just heard from berman, they're talking about how this day started for trump's legal team and what this looked like. what does that spell? we'll talk about what it means for the gag order. but what does it mean when that's the relationship between the judge and the lead defense counsel on de really date two of this as a litigator that really just made me cringe. i mean, i think i cannot imagine or more problematic way for a judge to perceive you. so early in a trial, to have your credibility question by a judge. that's about as low as you can gov as a lawyer in a courtroom. i think there was a really bad day. i think why it matters that it's the tone going forward. there's gonna be a lot more skirmishes in front of this, judge. clearly, we're going to learn more at a sidebar, but the gag order, there's gonna be other evidentiary rulings. this judge, you want him to like to

like if you're the defense lawyer here, i think they haven't some say he doesn't believe you that you weren't credible on de two effectively that's a really, really bad sign because going forward, when you make that argument went to close call. he's going against you and going for the people so can i can i pose the question? >> to you that i sort of asked at the end of the last hour, which is what is the impact really on this trial? robert of trump repeatedly violating gag order. i understand it's about protecting the witnesses. it's protecting the jurors. but on the actual trial itself, what's the impact, if any? >> my first reaction. so that's really a sideshow. the jury is of course not a price of any of this and likely will be kept in the dark about any resolution with regard to the gag order, unless somebody is doing what they're not supposed to be doing, which is following media stories in the press while the trial is ongoing. so i think the effect is zero as far as todd blanche is concerned, i mean, maybe i've gotten into more and more trouble than some of my

colleagues that i should have. but i mean, as a defense lawyer, i'm more than happy for the judge to be taking me on as opposed to my client and look, todd blanche is not going to be easily intimidated. i think he's going to try to win purchase client to follow the letter and the spirit of the gag order. but look, the fact of the matter is this is what everybody warned about, including me, which is a trial in the middle of a campaign cycle. and there is inevitably going to be collision between the terms of a gag order that prevents the former president of the united states, who was the leading presidential candidate from being able to respond with regard to information that is potentially politically damaging if michael cohen is free, go out there and speak, it's a little odd to be trying to put a a muzzle around the defendant on trial partly understandable because you're trying to protect witnesses, but this is an unusual case and you've got perhaps the government's lead witness out

there in public. and frankly should be, i think at managed by the prosecution to just, you know, stop what you're doing until you're done testifying a trial, then you want to have added want to talk all you want. go right ahead. >> but to muzzle donald trump when you've got other witnesses where at least one other words it's out there speaking. what well, is a muslim, i mean, that's under threat of attack witness under any grant talk about the jurors under god but what difference does that make any big would it doesn't make you look at safety of the witnesses are paramount, but the president, who is a candidate for office has got to be able to respond with regard to matters that involve but that's some that didn't have all that involve the campaign and if this becomes what everybody was concerned about, what i was concerned about was essentially a sideshow for people to explore how to do damage to donald trump in the political process that is not something that he is going to tolerate, and he will tolerate contempt and not allow that line to be

cross. the judge. i understand the judge can do what it is the judge thinks is right. but donald trump is a presidential candidate, has to do what he thinks is right. >> and there's going to be a collision. >> and if it's pressed and this thing goes beyond like $1,000 fine or whatever with regard each violation and the judge decides to take him on and tried to put him in custody. i can tell you that that will bring this trial to a halt. well, that's why that's because there will be an immediate appeal. i do. a juror who held the start to wonder if you think that there is any validity to the idea that maybe what the judge also might have to do is say to a michael cohen or say to prosecutors, you gotta get your witness under control. he cannot be out there talking about this case. and creating this spectacle on the side. >> no problem is the defendant himself doesn't have that type of gag order. the gag order is to protect the witnesses in the case from vitriol, from donald trump but a typical trial might

have a gag order where no one is allowed to talk about the case because the judge doesn't want people trying their case out in the court of public opinion. they wanted to stay inside the courtroom we don't have that kind of situation, but to say that this case is political and preventing donald trump from exercising his first amendment right. this is a business fraud allegation, pure and simple. it's about allegedly falsifying business records and things that went on that trump is alleged to have run an expense of paying somebody's silence through his business records and doing it falsely. i don't see the political connection until we get into the campaign influencing which is the second part of this complicated felony charge. also, donald trump spoke to the cameras on multiple occasions today. he did an interview on his way to his gag order violation hearing today criticizing michael cohen calling him a criminal, and segall thing. so at this moment, he is certainly not muzzled, but brian, i wonder when you're looking at this and after that got out of the way, david pecker took the

stand in resumed this and this is this tabloid king and it was just it's remarkable to see him sitting there, not this far from trump, but going into detail about when he met trump and he was so impressed by him. >> but obviously we've seen how dramatically that relationship has been reshaped. >> the totally admitted into a scheme to help get trump elected i covered the enquirer and pecker back in the mid in 2018, millions backroom deals with history, but this was eight years ago when these tablet covers were coming out promoting trump and disparaging hillary clinton. i was covering this pretty extensively, but i learned a lot today. there's a lot that we didn't know at the time. that's been exposed under oath. pecker has never given an interview about these secrets. so now, for the first time these have come out whether you call it a conspiracy, the way the prosecutors do, it was clearly an alliance that went much deeper than was evidenced to readers or viewers or anybody at the time so from a media standpoint, we learned a lot about how this worked and how trump is using one of the most

sleazy brands out there, the national enquirer to launder his attacks against his opponent that's now of course, he's much less subtle. he just does it in front of the cameras. but even at those pressers, you've been describing, they're not really pressers is not taking questions. most of the time at those moments where he's speaking front of the cameras, he's not saying much, he's repeating the same talking points. he's reading the same tweets from his friends he seems to be in a very narrowed echo chamber without much newest sorry, you could argue that this is just the art of repetition that's a great knows very well. he understands that if he just reads the same thing over and over again. we're still going to take it live through shai brian was talking about how david pecker admitted to a scheme to help donald trump get elected explicitly testifies to the scheme in where he was when it was hatched in this testimony, you have really for the first time today talks about this august 15th august 20 meeting where michael cohen calls them and says, hey, come to trump tower, meet with donald trump.

>> and then this is the exchange here. the attorney, the prosecutor, joshua steinglass, asked, can you describe for the jury what happened at that meeting, please? pecker testifies at that meeting, donald trump and michael, they asked me what i can do in what my magazines could do to help the campaign. so thinking about it as i did previously, i said what i would do is i would run or published positive stories about mr. trump and i would publish negative stories about his opponents. i said i would be your eyes and ears because i know the trump organization had a very small staff and then i said that anything i hear in the marketplace, if i hear anything negative about yourself or if i hear anything about women selling stories, i would notify michael cohen as i did over the last several years, i would notify michael cohen and then he would be able to have them kill in another magazine or have them not to be published, or somebody would have to purchase them steinglass, the prosecutor asks purchased the negative stories about mr. trump, so they would not get published me. you mean and pecker says that they would

not get published yes. >> i mean, i'm brian and what they basically laid out with those questions and answers from david pecker& the questions in the prosecutors was the national enquirer would get a tip. those are donald trump, david pecker would be alerted. he'd call michael cohen and asked michael cohen what to do. and michael cohen according to david pecker and will hear the cross-examine and what michael cohen has to say about this. but he would say well, let me call the boss and see what he wants to do with the karen mcdougal story with it? other stories. >> what do you want to do about this? >> ironically, this is the kind of scandal that the national enquirer, one of exposed in almost any other scenario. the enquirer had a history for all its flaws, for all of its faults of reporting on politicians on both sides of the aisle. for exposing scandals and controversies and polit politicians. >> words they didn't in this. >> example but instead pecker because he was go ahead, are long relationship with trump and saw a benefit to that enquirer decided to pick a horse, right aside to get in line with trump and create a pro-trump propaganda outlet,

which is really what the enquirer was. but he's never fessed up to this until today in court it's not just that part. i mean, if it were just that, then it would be unsavory bad bad for journalism. maybe bad ethically the issue now is what happened next, does it a crime or is it a crime? >> and hello. >> well, take everything that you just said is true. if the campaign had gone to the federal election commission had said we want to make a payment to suppress this story. and we want to use campaign funds to do it. what would the federal election commission have said they would have said, are you out of your mind? that's a personal expense. we also have a competent fec and that's not a campaign expenditure and the flip side of that, if that's so is that it can't be you ask the question is, is it a crime? prosecution is going to have to prove that this is a concealed illegal campaign contribution. and that's going to get hung up on the axle. i think of

testimony that you're likely to hear on my imagined during the defense case or through cross-examination about wait a second. now that's not the ftc's view of this. they would not have viewed this as a legitimate campaign. i think i do think it just as i go through this transcript and you look carefully at the exchanges, it is why i think the prosecutor and david pecker always leads into this was a campaign meeting. >> what can i do for the campaign, right? mbe that they close this circle in the next few days, but that's in here, that's in the transplant you'd expect that toe there. they are becse they know they have to prove it. >> i'm just saying sot does seem like they're conscious of the issue that you're bringing up? >> yeah. >> i don't as i sit here, i don't know the answer to that question definitively as a tter of law, i'just suggesting that i think that's a legitimate defense. we do't know how th's going to come out and enlarge part. it'll depend on ultitely, the jue and what the form of the jury instructions will be. but i thit's gitimate legal question not entirely clear what the answer yes. >> oth thing, i an, just to drl do a little bion what

you're saying and i'm curious abouthe other lawys at the table if trumpad just made the payment himself, it's a rsonal expense. he'd labeled here. that's right. but he did not do tt becaushe was trying tconceal it. >> so yeahi would say all the surrounding facts here. >> i think robert undercut the hypothetical you put forward, right? if this were simply a personal matter, he could have done something that was far more simplistic. and i think what the prosecution did here effectively it was to set the table as to how this is all connected to the campaign. had david pecker event effectively was brought on as a and actor to help further trump's chances of winning the presidency. now, there is a world where perhaps the epc might've taken a view that is not, those are not the facts that we have here. i think we are talking about donald trump's intent when you're saying why did he, if it's oven direct, the he's fortification of business records. and was that for the purpose of concealing an election unlawful attempted to

play with election. i think the fats here are coming out the gate strong from the prosecution. i feel very good about this first witness and the other where i went, there's corroboration. we've talked a lot about michael cohebeing the star witss. i think what'so affectethey is that 're not tking about michael cohen and his credibility issues. we're talking about michael cohen and corroboration. david pecker is going to be a great witness that has been because michael cohen, even before his understand is becoming a stronger and strongewitness. and i think when you add an a document, you added more testimony. it's going to make the osecution ve a really did you hear e and says, what >> herwent when they made a point of having dad pecker are related this back the campaign, y, we have been doing all of these positive stories looking for good stories about trump this was the first time we ever paid for one or three stories that are involved in these allegations, it was about a dormant who is shopping the story that trump had fathered a child now it out of wedlock, it wasn't true. and in that do you have that? >> i have that i can read you the dorm guys. we have this if

you have this in the control room, he's talking about the story of the dorman in pecker says, if the story was true and i published it, it wou obably be the biggt sale of the national enquir sie the death of elvis presley. okay. so he's ignoring it would have been a huge story had they published it the prosecutor, joshua steinglass says, did you have any intention of publishing and at the time you negotiated this deal pecker says at that time, no. steinglass says, what was your intention in terms of publishing it depending on how you're vetting went and becker says, if the story came back true, i would have published the story shortly after it was verified steinglass says, before or after the election, i would have published it after the election. pecker says steinglass just dives in a little deeper. so even if the vet and came back and you believe the story to be true, you would have held the story until after for the presidential election of 2016. pecker says that was the conversation. i had with michael cohen. and that's what we agreed to. >> so here's what's going on

underneath. this is not going to be a case about eventually disclosing an illegal campaign contribution. this is a local new york case, and there was a new york statue that says that it is illegal for two or more people to either promote or prevent a candidate from taking office who's running for public office. so we'll get the word promotion here. so allegedly in this case, burying the stormy daniels story and& all the other stories as well. but particularly this one that's going to fall under the new york state statue. we're not getting into issues of campaign finance fraud were getting into local law violation and this case, really the funny part about it, if you could call it funny, is it's really similar to taking and your family out for a very expensive dinner and running the expense through your business. >> trump allegedly had a personal matter, allegedly, he's denying it, and he ran the expense allegedly of paying

stormy daniels off through his business records called it a retainer to michael cohen and michael cohen is going to come in and be the lynchpin here and say there was no retainer agreement. >> this is what we think the de foreshadow this. there's no retainer agreement and i wasn't doing what they said i was doing, what the trump organization and trump's said i was doing. i think that's how the case will eventually fall out. but if the jury finds that it was done and they believed that it was for personal reasons. remember? todd, blanche and opening statement try to quote unquote, humanize the client, everybody kind of dismissed that as it's kinda quaint that they're trying to establish that donald trump is both a father and a husband. that wasn't done for just some idle purpose that is done for the purpose of summation later on after evidence is all in to say, hey, listen if the jury finds that there's reasonable doubt and believes that donald trump's motivations was not. we're not principally to advance his interest in a campaign, but to conceal an affair from his wife and his child and the jury bicep or at least one juror buys that are

at least one juror finds that there's reasonable doubt as to whether or not it's for an illegal purpose. as opposed to a personal purpose. that's why todd blanche did what he did an opening. that's a setup for what's to come. lee might help his wife came to court, though. it would for any family members and this is all about donald trump's intent. >> so you have a point, you have a point. >> and we will get to look, there's so much to get to erase a lot of questions actually, what that last comment everyone standby for us i've next breaking news from the court tonight, a judge denying donald trump's demand to subpoena stormy daniels for information. we'll have more and that plus how the secret service is preparing for the possibility. the possibility that trump may be thrown behind bars for contempt of court this is cnn special five coverage cnn news night with abby phillip. >> he's brought to you by. so tick two fine. now, you've so tick two is the treatment you've been looking for.

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tonight as a judge is just denied donald trump and his legal teams request to try to get information via subpoena or story daniels, including whether she's had contact with any of the other witnesses in this case? before we discussed just a reminder. >> here's what stormy daniels told anderson cooper when they sat down was it hush money to stay silent yes the story was coming out again. >> i was concerned for my family and their safety. >> i think some people watching this are going to doubt that you entered into this negotiation because you feared for your safety. they're going to think that you saw an opportunity. >> i think the fact that i didn't even negotiate, i just

quickly said yes to this very strict contract and what most people will agree with me, extremely low number is all the proof i need you feel like if you had wanted to go public, you could have gotten paid a lot of money to go public and it out it out. >> i know for a fact, i believe without a shadow of a doubt in my heart. and some people argue that i don't have one of those, but whatever that i was doing the right thing. i turned down a large payday multiple times times because one, i didn't want to kiss and tell and be labeled all the things that i'm being labeled now the panel is back with us along with olivia newsy, washington correspondent for new york magazine, who has been inside the courtroom watching all of this play out. >> and i want to get to what it's like inside the courtroom in a moment, but tim, just your first reaction to this, judge denying the request by the trump team. they wanted to be able to subpoena stormy daniels for her communications. and basically, the judge said the request was too broad it's not

surprising. >> i mean, i think that that's one thing about this crowd that we have to remind ourselves that it is normal criminal trial and at times we the trump ask of it makes it feel like this grant process but beside the courtroom. but inside the courtroom, i think if this were not donald trump, that's the request of it also be denied. i think here when you add in the additional factors of the witness intimidation, everything else you've seen for trump, i think that hurts them in these kinds of applications. >> do you think that this was even i mean, it seems kinda like a bit of a hail mary to me, but as a lawyer, i mean, was it a standard motion for them to find it's also a little bit late. we have started trial already. the time for trial is motion. you make your motions are called pretrial motions. if the defense had discovered something different the change in circumstances from before when the trial started, they'd have every right and they probably wouldn't this motion to get this, but i think trump's lawyers are going to reach for every opportunity they can and test the limits. and that's the best way for

them to mount this defense. >> robert, i mean, when you look at how trump's legal team is handling this, todd blanche, from what happened today, we don't have revisit the entire gag order hearing, but i wonder how would you be doing this differently? what would you be doing if you were that defense counsel sitting next to trump? >> the defense is entitled to prior statements of anyone is expected to be a witness but they have to be statements that are in the possession, custody, or control of the prosecution. so that's sort of your frame of reference in terms of having evidenced prior statements use to impeach the testimony of a witness. if that witness testifies at trial, it's a little more complicated when it's like stormy daniels and she's made statements not to the government, but to other people in the media. and otherwise, i think they were trying to get access to the universe of those statements. i don't know why the judge thought it was overbroad or how it could maybe have been narrowed or tailored to get the

defense what it what it it's after. but i mean, i think you can still explore that even during trial up until the time, but the witness testifies indeed all the way through the witnesses direct examination before cross-examination starts. so i imagined this will be revisited. i don't think it's the last of this. my guess is they probably took the takeaway message. okay. it's overbroad. why was it overbroad? is there some way we can narrow it to get subject matter material information that would go to the witnesses prior statements about things that she'll testify to at trial. so i think it's i don't think that's the last word, i guess is what i'm saying. >> and olivia, i mean, luck at the end of the day i don't even know when was the last time donald trump and stormy daniels were in the same room? that's that's gonna be a bombshell moment in this case, trump's entire demeanor around this woman who is the center of not only this controversy, but an embarrassing episode. and it's personal life and in his public life.

>> i noticed when prosecutors mentioned stormy daniels, his name when they mentioned karen mcdougal, and when they mentioned michael cohen, trump's seem to sort of shift on company mr. billy in his seat in the courtroom the other day. he was not looking over at prosecutors. if it's not totally clear what he was looking at, but he was sort of shifting, playing with papers, scribbling notes to his attorney. i can't imagine how much more uncomfortable he's going to appear when he is actually in the same room with them, but i will say if the if the defense is looking for communications between stormy daniels and other witnesses she's become friends with michael cohen by both of their accounts. they've taped, i think two podcasts episodes together, at least there are others. a lot of public i'm michelle donald trump is not listening actively to michael cohen spot a caster to stormy daniels. blood but there is some public information about that. >> so very hush, hush. moment but it does speak to the moment of trump's sitting in the room with these david pecker is one to start, but we believe stormy daniels is expected to take the stand. >> michael cohen, obviously, but karen mcdougal as well.

hope hicks six, maybe kellyanne conway, it's not totally clear it's a pretty remarkable witness list that we could be watching play out here he's rattled already. how do we know he's rattled? because lies, he's telling, right? four years ago today, this was the bleach de if you remember that, right. trump had no control over covid over the pandemic and he talked about bleach that was four years ago today. what's the lie he told today said that thousands of people are being kept out of the courthouse and out of the neighborhood because it's become a you arm the courthouse. did i was just i was there. it took an uber like a normal person got out, walked around, came over, visited all of you. it's a normal de a beautiful park in lower manhattan. and yeah, there's some police officers and they're pretty bored because nothing's going on outside. if you live in the city, come on down tomorrow, see for yourself, he's doing that thing where he lies about what you can see, what for their own eyes. and he only does that when he's really rattled. so it'd be rattled already sitting in this freezing cold courtroom and then going home at night listening to his friends on television tell him it's like guantanamo bay. how

much more rattled will he be to your point when these others are up on the stand? it is so interesting that when the access hollywood tape was being read out loud and court yesterday, trump also reacted. >> he started passing notes to his attorneys. these are things that actually happen, things that he said, things that he did. but when it is out in the public sphere, i find that interesting. kaitlan, you know, and well, olivia, you know, well, it is interesting to me that he is still it's almost like embarrassed by it, or does he doesn't want to own up to in publicly? what's behind that? >> i think that he thinks that he can define his own reality and he has succeeded doing that for a long, long time, for as long as he has been in public life, he has attempted to set the terms of the world around him and how people perceive him. and that's what's so interesting about it. seeing him in this courtroom just completely with no power, not able to dictate when he even stands up or sits down he is probably for the first time completely out of control and it's pretty remarkable to see

there is a note of sympathy there. none of us are yourself, none of us, none of us are our worst moments. none of us it's all right. so listen i'm happily married. i don't know what it would be like to go and try to sleep with important star as alleged. but if you go and do that, if you have your worst moment, your worst time when you're not going down the wrong road or none of us are our worst moments. and yet trump said in there, having to relive what are alleged to be some of his worst moments of his life. there is a moment of sympathy there are simple, it's strange to hear from his attorneys know he's not accepted that these things happened, that we all know about& that are being alleged and yet they are claiming that they're not illegal. >> so it's this strange are such as oj defense. it's very strange and the difference here is told jurors are there watching as he processes this and watches these witnesses come up. we have much more to discuss about what this is going to look like in the courtroom coming up, we're also going to hear from a former judge who's going to join us to talk about what it looks like when that judge, today and

how he was reacting toward trump's defense saying that he was losing credibility with the court and what his options are for these gag order violations. if he finds that he did violate it. plus, all the secret service is preparing for the very long shot possibility that trump may be thrown behind bars for contempt of court. >> this is cnn's special live coverage back in a moment the seeking of the titanic. >> how would really happen, especially to our premier sunday at nine on cnn, liberty mutual customized car insurance and i saved hundreds that's great. i know. i've been telling everyone how many people did you tell only pay for what you need lucky so i can take all these trips because priceline has all these amazing deals and that's when i said deal on your right is our

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this is a shell energy 100% renewable electricity plan lighting every soccer match at shell energy stadium. we're moving forward with the houston dash. because we're moving forward with everybody. shell. powering progress. kevin liptak at the white house. >> and this is cnn we're currently waiting for judge merchan to decide whether or not donald trump actually violated his gag orders in multiple posts online and seeing that legal analyst, joey jackson is joining us with more on that and what the judges actual options are joey so this

is what trump cannot do pursuant to the gag order. what does that? let's talk about it. speak publicly about witnesses. why witness intimidation. and of course, they are public safety, speaking publicly about publicly about prosecutors and staff members cannot do that bragg's office. bragg is fair game. he's the district attorney. however, his court staff and family members, they are off limits as well and let's not forget speaking publicly about jurors. these are all the things they gag order forbids. now with respect to what trump is done, let us take a look at all of his post on truth social. those posts relating to a variety of alleged violations of the gag order which prosecutions wants to hold him accountable for. the prosecutor said that's a no-no. they went a hearing before the judge. the judge has to make a decision as to whether these constitute a violation. and so what does the law with respect to that,

right? this is the law. don't want you looking at that. let's break it down further as to what this means in english. and that is as follows. these are the options. option number one and admonishment. what does that mean, mr. trump, don't do that. you put people in jeopardy? you can cause safety and other issues. it's problematic. stop. that's what the judge can do. will that be enough? potentially not. he could find trump up to $1,000 per post that is in violation. last thing he could put trump in prison for up to 30 days. many people not believing that that's a viable option, however, for he can certainly put them in for a couple of hours. would that work? we'll see we certainly well, jeremy, thank you. >> and standby for us for more on this. i want to bring in judge ladoris hazard cordell, judge at one point during the hearing today, judge merchan told trump's legal team they were losing credibility with the court if you're a judge& those words have to come out of your mouth. what does that mean for you that means that things

aren't going well for the attorneys for trump's attorneys, and the judge is trying to listen objectively to decide whether or not criminal contempt has been committed. >> so when the other side, trump's lawyers proposed ridiculous defenses are responses such as, while re-posting isn't really posting so maybe there's no violation of the gag or it's absurd and it's a waste of the judges time so the judge was clearly agitated irritated and the good thing the judge did was like, hold up. i'm not going to make a decision right now when i'm in this mood in this frame of mine, and that's why i think the judge will likely issue an order, if not later, if maybe it's too late on the east coast or by tomorrow. so that trump can know what behavior is acceptable and what is not. i mean, it's clear. i think after the evidentiary hearing today that donald trump crossed

over into criminal contempt land, at least ten times so the issue is, what is the judge going to do and the whole purpose of criminal contempt is to, first of all preserve the integrity of a court proceeding to make sure people follow the judge's orders. but for the person who has violated in order, it's the purposes two punish the person and also to deter them from doing it again, a finds not going to deter him. so what's left incarceration yeah is that what you would do? >> would you go there? you heard jolene suggested could be not just not days, maybe you a couple of hours. what would you do sure. >> i understand that so if there are ten criminal contempt violations and it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. and that's required in this instance so what what would you do with a person who was not donald trump high-profile that person would serve some time in jailed for blatantly violating the court's order. not once, not

twice, but ten times so it should not be any different for this person. and donald trump has really just pushed the envelope consistently all through this process. so it's not an issue as far as i'm concerned. this isn't rocket science right? you violate a court order ten times, then you go to jail. the only issue i think is when he goes to jail, if he goes now that delays the trial, that's what he wants. you don't want to do that. so the judge can basically hold off and say, i'm gonna give you could be a de for each could be an hour for each ten hours in a cell. and hold off and say, you're going to start that sentence at the end of the trial because the trial and the contempt proceeding are two separate things. >> we have robert array here on the panel. robert, do you have any questions for the judge? >> i guess my question judges, whether in terms of you know incremental ratcheting up of

penalties, if an admonition won't work why wouldn't it be the case that a judge would look next to okay. i have my doubts about whether or not fines will do the trick, but maybe i'm going to be cautious here and do that first. and actually find out whether or not that's and lay that record down before i go down the travel now on the road of incarceration whether a matter of hours or days or months yeah new york law gives the judge the option of the affine jail time or combination thereof. and by the way, is 30 days for each of violation, a maximum. the judge can impose, but this could be total of 300 days in jail if the judge would impose some maximum so i just i think we're all making too much of this if anyone violates a court order and does it blatantly&

has been warned has been fined, and other instances at there's only one thing left to do. this person is thumbing his nose at the judge and at the core process. so the issue becomes and this is entirely up to the judge to say. okay, you're gonna go sit in and cool your heels. he could decide for a few hours and bring donald trump back out. because on me tell you, i've seen the jails and i think the jails here where i live are similar to the jail's and other parts so the country they're not particularly clean very noisy, and you can't, if you go in for a few hours, he won't have to perhaps changes close. but if he has to go in for few days, he's got aware of gera jail garb, so there's a lot that thousands of people happens who are sitting in jails now. and i just don't think we should make it such a big deal because this happens to be donald trump. he's viral related the law criminal contempt, then he served his time like anybody else,

entirely up to the judge and the judge may want to do an increment, but we all know a fine a warning that not going to deter him. he's pushing the envelope all the time. >> yeah. and i think most people agree any other defendant this wouldn't to your point, really b. a. question, but with donald trump, here we are talking about a judge, hazard cordell. thank you. thank you very much for joining yes. and up next for us, the role that former playboy model karen mcdougal will play when she takes the stand. that's next so. the playoffs, great teammates trust each other. we're going to do a trust falls, stand up, trust what you see every, up dog told the news a dummy with priceline vip family, you can unlock deals five times faster. >> you don't even have to be an actual family. >> i'd be the dad on the day

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enquirer executive david pecker will continue to testify about the catch and kill process. >> he's going to detail how he handled that process when it came to former playboy model karen mcdougal. so which witnesses are expected to testify and which ones will be the most impactful. so starting with karen mcdougal could, because i think this is actually fundamentally different. we were just talking about from stormy daniels. this was longer term, this was something that trump i mean, he's still denies actually the karen mcdougal relationship. what are you expecting from her? >> this one's more complicated. she has not been antagonistic about donald trump. she still speaks with him with some affection she described in her interview with anderson cooper, she described that they were in love. it was a very an actual relationship and that she ended it because she felt very bad about it being an affair. she's a religious woman and i think it's gonna be very different for him to see her in that

courtroom versus stormy daniels or that was a more surface level? bowl, a fair it was a transactional. >> they were talking about a roll on celebrity apprentice for stormy daniels. it was not an emotional affair where he talked about having a child and karen mcdougal in her account, i think it's much more emotional thing than the stormy daniels that's really fascinating. i mean, from the lawyers the ram i mean, from an evidentiary perspective, what's the thing that you you need the most for this case to be rock solid from the prosecutor's perspective, i might think it's fitting to that pattern that we've been talking about, right? that's what the prosecutors want to set forth, that the catch and kill was part of this scheme. we use the word conspiracy think that's, where she really fits in is add before we get to stormy daniels, we're going to have these other data point to show this as part of a broader agreement. and that's where this fills in. i think i'm the defense looking at her and what i just heard, it might impact how she's cross-examined. i mean, what if she goes up there

and she's not a hostile witness and she comes off in a more favorable way, it might impact how you go after her, meaning you don't hit are the way you might do with stormy daniels, who you might be aggressive and call a lion with her. you might try to fit it that framework of donald trump, the softer figure, that density that he's the man family of man who, whose real and has emotions as she may be able to fit into that defense narrative about donald trump as a more sympathetic character. but i think it's gonna be hard to do. >> it's this very complicated. you're trying to humanize donald trump's one who is larger than life as the defense noted in their opening remarks. but if you're attempt to humanize him is by bringing in in an alleged mr. is suffering. i mean, she isn't really bad schizer prosecution would she's going back backfire. i mean, look, i think the attempt to human eyes him is a tiny part of the case. i think what they'll try to do with karen mcdougal is be consistent with the defense's opening statement which said todd blanche said trump didn't do

anything wrong. he was just protecting his family. and if you look at donald trump before he was elected president, he was an international celebrity and the cost of doing business is getting rid of people who are nuisances in your life and it doesn't cost very much money for donald trump to pay these people off they would say this is something he would do. anyway, it has nothing to do with the election of brian. one way or another though. this is like, i mean, luck there. i was there for so much of this. a lot of this re-reading it, remembering it, this is going to be a process of that for voters all across the country, whether you like two or not, this case case is going to be front-page news probably every single day for the next six weeks, it'd be on the jury. so there's a beyond the jury beyond the legal arguments. i was just thinking today about what this is like to be dredging up bad memories for the country and some people could say it's a great memory is trump was elected in 2016. yes, but the ted cruz sex scandal, the access hollywood tape all the lies about trump's opponents that we now are learning. trump was helping

push through the enquirer with michael cohen and david pecker all of this is been dredged backup and a lot of casual news consumers will barely hear it, but it will see through, will seep through for the next days and weeks i personally, i'm of the view that a lot of americans have short-term memory loss when it comes to the trump years and the pandemic and all that, they don't want to remember how ugly some of this was. we live in a political environment now where it's all caps, tweets, he screams all day on social media. >> we forget that we used to live in a playful environment where people were kinda nice to each other in the political arena. >> decency and, decorum and this entire trial beyond the politics, beyond the legal part, the politics is reminding us of just how indecent and ugly it's because they're parallel things going on. there is a legal case, but there's also a character case pointing at the same time. thank you all for being here and thank you for watching news sites. coverage of the trump trial. laura coates live starts right after this you think?

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