could release gershkovich. the national security advisor said there have been talks but no resolution yet. it appears they're at a dead end for now. we talked to current and former u.s. officials who worked on efforts to release americans detained in russia. they do say the russians want the people detained to get through the entire court/legal system on the russian side. that has not happened for evan yet. hopefully later this month. >> and to our viewers, thanks very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation." erin burnett "outfront" starts right now. outfront next, the grand jury in georgia still meeting as former president trump's legal

team says charges are imminent tonight. we'll talk to someone who just walked out from in a grand jury coming straight to us. now the death toll in maui is at 99. it will be higher. our bill weir is there getting a rare look at what's happening in hawaii. and the ruble takes a massive tumble. a very public and embarrassing message tonight. let's go "outfront." fast and furious, you are looking live at the fulton county courthouse right now where a grand jury is inside, working overtime, still hearing the case at 7 p.m. eastern with all signs now pointing to an unprecedented fourth indictment against former president trump. the lights are still on in that courtroom where the grand jury is meeting. we are two hours past that court's normal closing time. trump's advisor telling cnn his

team is preparing for that indictment to be delivered imminently. coming up this hour, we're going to be joined by two witnesses because moments ago the former georgia lieutenant governor, jeff duncan, he just left the court. he waited his turn, he testified before that grand jury. he'll be with us momentarily to tell you about it. we'll be joined by journalist george chetee. we are waiting for him to finish his testimony and join us immediately thereafter. i want to be clear, both of them were scheduled to testify tomorrow but then they were moved in a last-minute switch to today. this is now going well past hours. it's just one of many surprises adding to the intrigue tonight in georgia. we also saw reuters reporting that a document listing criminal charges against trump was brief posted and then removed from the official web site of the fulton county court. that obviously can be hugely significant. the statement to the court then calls it a, quote, fictitious document. we'll see. trump himself of course is spun

up. he called the former georgia lieutenant governor, jeff duncan, is coming here to the camera after testifying, he called him a loser, warning that duncan, quote, shouldn't testify. trump also called the fulton county d.a. a, quote, phony and called the former d.a. very partisan and biased and unfair. all of that from the former president. paula, the lights are on, they're all inside. what is the latest there right now? >> reporter: and we are watching and waiting. the grand jury is still inside two hours after the courthouse usually closes. the judge who oversees this grand jury also still inside. he's popped his head out of chambers a few times to encourage reporters in the courtroom to just hang in there. so we continue to watch and wait while we do some reporting on exactly what has happened so far. among the witnesses that have gone before the grand jury are two former state lawmakers, both

democratic former state senators went in to testify today. we expected they would be asked about a presentation they witnessed by rudy giuliani that was laden with conspiracy theories. moments ago the former lieutenant governor, jack duncan, will join us shortly. we know there is at least one other witness inside, the independent journalist, george chetee. he's been helpfully tweeting updates about his status but his tweets also suggested there's at least one other witness still in there so it might be a while on whether we get any answers about the possible fourth indictment of former president trump. >> paula, thank you very much. of course we'll go back to paula the instant she hears anything. as promised, i do want to go straight to jeff duncan, who just finished testifying before the fulton county grand jury moments ago. you were scheduled tomorrow, they called you in today.

you had to go in and wait and then go before that grand jury. what can you tell us happened? >> well, it was a very serious atmosphere, as you would expect and one that was back and forth conversation. i was certainly honored to answer their questions to the best of my ability and that's what i did throughout my period of time. not certain of the exact time, maybe an hour plus. >> and so we understand, who was asking the questions? >> well, i'm going to certainly just not being a lawyer, i'm going to stay away from the details, making sure i don't jeopardize the integrity of the investigation. but it was a very intense meeting. >> intense and serious. okay. an hour plus. let me just try to get an understanding from you, then, lieutenant governor, about what the questions -- what was it really focused on? that's a lot of time, a lot of questions. what were they really focused on finding out from you? >> i think they certainly wanted to hear the facts as i knew

them. that's what this whole process has been about, even bigger than just the grand jury. i think this is an important pivot point for america. we can't just be half baked with conspiracy theories and kind of just pat it down. we either have to validate that these conspiracy theories are real or they're not. i know where i come down on the matter. they don't exist. this is part of the painful healing process for the republican party for us to move past this moment in time. this temporary moment of insanity is what i think history will reflect of this time being republicans. >> so were they focused on the former president's efforts to find 11,780 votes, as he said, just one more than he needed to win? was it mostly focused on that or the fake elector scheme where there was a slate of fake electors put forth in georgia? their access to voting machines? what are you able to tell us? >> i know this isn't the answer you want to hear but it was a wide ranging conversation across

a lot of different topics. as the president of the senate, i had the purview of committees and legislation and misinformation and of course i spoke out very early in the process about the misinformation. within hours of the election it seemed obvious what donald trump's play was, to spread misinformation and start grass fires. the unfortunate part there wasn't the millions of republicans behind a handful of us and unfortunately the fire burned out of control and two and a half years later we're still in the position where we were there with this guy leading our republican nomination process. i do think this is going to be a pivot point, a changing tide. it's an opportunity for somebody to step up and do the right thing here, totally turn their back on donald trump's ways and past and lead the party in a direction that is better and to join us to fix this mess that

joe biden put us in. >> your former colleague had talked to me about the seriousness with with think approach the questions, members of the grand jury, how thoughtful, how prepared they were. what did you find today and were they all there? was everybody present and sort of -- how would you describe the attention they paid your testimony, the focus that they gave you? >> i can tell you that there was the highest level of attention in that room for folks with the district attorney's office to the jurors. it was just an extremely intense period of time and everybody was prepared. it's just like walking into a perfect meeting where everybody is prepared and ready to go to work and that's really what it was, a very, very serious work environment. >> now, you originally of course were scheduled to testify tomorrow and you found out today it got moved up today. did they give you any reason as to why your testimony was moved up so suddenly? >> didn't affect me, other than maybe i didn't get to the car

pool line today. brooke had to cover for me. my story is my story, whether it was a year ago, a day ago or ten years from now. my story swas the facts and i ws fine to deliver that information today. >> team trump believes an indictment is imminent. you were literally running to the camera. the judge told reporters to hold tight for now. do you get a sense after testifying that this decision will be coming, you know, imminently, tonight? >> i'm not sure of those details. there's a heightened level of security. i've just never seen that much police activity and certainly they're prepared for whatever the scenario ends up being. >> one final question to you, lieutenant governor, was there anything they asked you today in the conversation that was about an hour, anything that surprised you or you did not expect? >> no, absolutely not.

i felt like everybody was prepared for the moment. they knew the facts. there wasn't a whole lot of having to set the table for whatever the question was, it was a as a matter of fact question and a simple answer. >> i appreciate your time, lieutenant governor, thank you very much. i know it's been a long day. >> thanks, erin. >> joining me ryan goodman, the former special counsel with the department of defense, stephanie grisham joins me and thanks very much to all of you. ryan, so you hear the lieutenant governor. you having been through this, you can parse what he said in a much more meaningful way. you go in at this stage, it's described the way he described it as both the grand jury and fani willis' team, about an hour, what do you take away from that? >> it sounds like we're at the very, very end game and that it's quite likely that we'll have an indictment decision and hopefully the indictment itself if that's the case tonight. it's just all the timing is

pointing in that direction. he was supposed to go tomorrow. they made him come today. the courthouse usually closes at 5 p.m., they're holding it late. it sounds like they want to wrap this thing up. if that's the case, whether or not the jury returns the indictment affirmatively or negatively, i think it's going to happen tonight. >> anthony, what do you think? >> i agree. i think what we've seen is a real desire by the fulton county d.a.'s office and to be sure the jurors can be released from their duty once the decision is rendered. certainly this morning donald trump's attempt to somewhat intimidating tim duncan from testifying at the grand jury, i think there's a lot of reasons why they want to wrap this up and be done with it. >> to that point, stephanie, mentioning what the former president said about jeff

duncan, warning him not to testify and calling him a loser. that didn't affect the lieutenant governor in any way. nonetheless, you are seeing the former president certainly try -- making his feeling known to witnesses or potential witnesses in this case. >> yeah, he's certainly doing what he always does. it's unfortunate because i think until there are actual consequences, he's going to continue doing this. it's like a toddler. you've got to give them consequences to show that people mean it. i wish, i hope that at some point a judge says that's it, we're going to give you 24 hours in jail or whatever the punishment would be. he's got to have consequences because, again, as i said so many times, somebody gets hurt or heaven forbid a witness does feel intimidated and that takes some of these cases off the rails. > >> the lieutenant governor talking about him coming in tomorrow. he's going to say what he's

going to say. we don't know why things suddenly changed. we do know that reuters reported on that document, saying it was briefly posted to the court web site and it listed charges against trump. the court came out and said it was fictitious. nonetheless, that happened today and subsequently things really sped up. things that were supposed to happen tomorrow started happening today. what do you think about all that? >> i agree. i think it's the most important variable that might explain why they sped up today. either that document is real and therefore does actually show the architecture of what the document might look like and you don't want the jurors going home at night, seeing the news about it and the analysis of it and coming back the next day or the document is not real and you don't want the jurors seeing all of the analysis of it and coming back the next day. she probably wanted to keep the witnesses in place and let that be it and have no questions asked about whether or not this

somehow played -- >> don't read in more into it or whatever, you need to not deal with it. >> they may have given them a preview of what the indictment looks like. >> right, depending if it really was fictitious or not fictitious. anthony, if trump is charged and convicted in the state ofle geo -- of georgia, just to be clear, he cannot marr cannot pardon himself, they're state charges. is there any else in georgia, with the way georgia law works, who could prevent him having prison time? >> the power to parole is not a governor's gift. it's an obligation, responsibility that's invested by the georgia constitution to board of pardons and parole. so it would really be up to them. but even then ultimately a sentence has to be filled before they can consider a pardon. so there's really no easy out in

the way the federal system might give donald trump an out from some of the federal cases. >> stephanie, i know there's been some reporting that perhaps the former president will speak indictment. now, obviously he did after mar-a-lago because he had a fund-raiser. he didn't after the d.o.j. charges, the second set for january 6th. what do you say about that, especially lashing out. the judge has put a protective order on the information that can be shared with the public. >> yeah, i wouldn't be surprised if we heard him speak. i wouldn't be surprised if they have a video already recorded and ready to go. as we all probably remember, he said if he gets indicted a fourth time, he will win the presidency. and his team has had now four times to get this communications plan correct. so i can see them wanting to try to get their message out there. i'm sure just like every other time we're going to have a lot of republicans on the hill who

will say, you know, this is a witch hunt, this is all staged, this is political before they even read the indictment. so it wouldn't surprise me to see a video from him. i don't think he's going to do anything but say this is rigged, we're going to fight back, i'm taking this on for you, et cetera, et cetera and fund raise and around the world we go. >> and we trump is unleashing new attacks on the federal judge overseeing his january 6th case as well. as we await here, the grand jury behind closed doors and we could have word on that any moment. and anger in hawaii as they say they're not getting enough help. >> they say we'll come and help. [ bleep ], nobody came to help us.

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county grand jury. paula reed is back with me from the white house. paula, some real timing here it sounds like. >> reporter: that's right. understand the courthouse behind me is closed but there are still reporters inside along with the grand jury and the judge overseeing the grand jury. just a moment ago, our colleague, zach cohen, he said the judge said he is expected to stay for about another hour tonight. that would be around 8:20, 8:30. the grand jury is still meeting and the timing of any potential indictment is unclear. but we expected the d.a. fani willis would need two days to present her case to the grand jury. as we've seen today and as you noted in your great interview with jeff duncan, things have just been moving more quickly. so we continue to wait and watch to see if there could be indictments coming this evening. >> paula, thank you very much.

paula is there so she will know it the moment it happens. ryan, paula saying what you thought would be the case but actually put that it would happen tonight but it seems as if it now could be in the next hour. >> absolutely. so that's exactly what people have been thinking is going to happen and now this is one more data point that means this is truly imminent. fani willis a few weeks ago said this is imminent, like within minutes or hours. >> so, evan, when this comes out, the context here is this is georgia, which was a key part of the federal indictment, the d.o.j. indictment. jack smith and fanni willis said if she was standing next to jack smith, she wouldn't know who he was, they haven't coordinated. >> i think it's right that there's not been any coordination between the two teams, the smith team here in washington and the d.a.'s team. but at some point you have to

think that they will have to start running into each other. i mean, the judge in washington right now is trying to decide on a court date, on a trial date rather. so there's only so many days on the calendar and it's getting really filled up with not only this case, the documents case in mar-a-lago and the former president's other legal problems in new york. so at some point there is going to have to be some conversation where they'll decide who might be able to get a trial that goes first. and of course, erin, this case and the one that was brought by jack smith's team here in washington are both very relevant, one could argue, to the election, the forthcoming election. you have to argue that voters have an interest in seeing both of those cases or one of the two get to a jury before they take their vote. >> now, ryan, is there any chance that georgia would go first over a federal case? >> there is a chance because under georgia law there is a

speedy trial rule that's specific to their state, which might force her to go within a couple months. >> a couple months? will the me state the obvious. you're in october. >> so end of novemberish type thing. and that it might not be trump who asks for it because he wants it to be afters election but any of the other co-defendants could ask for their speedy trial rights under georgia law and she must be prepared for that. when she indicts, if she indicts, that she's ready to go. >> and evan, i know from you and paula and the entire team reporting, you've been reporting there could be a dozen or more people indicted in georgia. just to put an exclamation point on it, in the d.o.j. case right now you simply have trump and six unindicted co-conspirators. >> exactly, erin. that investigation is still ongoing. there could be additional indictments for people who were involved in the greater plot, but certainly if you're making a rico case in georgia, that's a

lot more complicated. and so, again, you're talking about a very crowded calendar and how do you get to that trial. you know, usually, frankly, when the federal government is indicting someone and the state authorities are doing it, usually what happens is there's a conversation between the two teams and usually the feds go first. that's not always the case but, you know, that happens often. we'll see how that conversation goes and when that conversation happens because it does seem like maybe that will have to happen at some point. >> evan, thank you very much. ryan, thank you very much. we're going to keep going back to paula. as she said, the clock is ticking, now less than an hour until we may get an unprecedented indictment out of the state of georgia could be coming within these next 50 or so minutes. we're going to continue to go back for our breaking news coverage, also to hawaii, where a couple collecting cash and emergency supplies to give to their neighbors talks about their home on the edge of the fire line.

they barely survived but others did not. their relatives also with our own bill weir. and the cost of inflation. in july, american families spent $700 more than they did two years ago to buy the exact same thing. treasury secretatary janet yell will be "outfront." i mamade a horrible mistake. ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ hi, i'm jill and i've lost 56 pounds on golo. hi, i'm barry and i've lost 42 pounds. jill and i are a team. if she tells me do something, i uslly jump on board. golo was doable, it's realist, anit's something we can do the rest of our lives. salonpas lidocaine flex. a super thin, flexible patch with maximum

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breaking news. the death toll in maui tonight 99. officials telling cnn that that number could double. 60-year-old carol hartley was trying to evacuate. her partner said they were separated by what seemed like a tornado of dark smoke, couldn't see anything.

carol's partner said he yelled at her "run." she was found dead on her proud. >> 68-year-old trey decided to evacuate and was found dead near his home. bill weir is "outfront." me and britney will lead the front. we got right behind us, just stay close. >> when charlie and britney fleck saw pictures of the devastation in lahaina, the couple knew they had to do something. >> we have cash. we have cash. we have help on the way. >> so they put out a plea on facebook and when thousands of dollars began rolling in, they began handing it out. >> thank you so much. >> we're coming for you. aloha. >> but that didn't seem like enough so they organized a

caravan and sweet talked their way past red tape and checkpoints and when they finally saw what lahaina looked like for the first time, they wept. but just on the edge of the burn scars, we find an inspiring example of hawaiian togetherness. >> colin powell, ruff kidding? that is aloha hospitality. thank you. >> you're next. keep up nice and cool. >> archie is a hall of fame surfer and lifeguard with maui roots that go back nine generations. >> reporter: this is your actual house here? >> this is my actual home. it was really lucky because my neighbors, they were here fighting the fire right at this corner. and the fire department said this is our last stand. we're going to hold the line right here. >> reporter: there's so much frustration over the official response so far.

he says authorities deserve some understanding given the size of the disaster. >> but this right here is a crime scene. and so what people don't understand is the government has to do due diligence before they start moving in. >> reporter: so it's a humanitarian response in the middle of a working crime scene. >> exactly. >> reporter: but at another relief pod on a beach nearby, frustration has turned to anger. >> you know, everybody's like, oh, you know, they don't come and help, they don't come and help. that's [ bleep ]. nobody came to help us. i mean, we rely on people like you guys that give compassion like we do, that, please, we need help. we need help. we need the next step. this is just the first inning. this is the first inning of what we're facing. >> tourism is our number one source of income. i would hope that our representatives, our

politicians, our government would ask the people from here when can we open? they should not be telling us, oh, we want to open six months from now. the truth of the matter is, when you look at the overall devastation, we are not going to be ready to allow people to see what we're living through in six months. >> and, bill, it's devastating to see what you're experiencing in an american state. i know the fire's been incredibly difficult to contain there. what can you share about what you're seeing right now? >> reporter: well, yeah, this is an area separate from lahaina. this is the south fires that took out a few hundred structures, including this home here. the homeowners were just telling me the fire came raging up this ravine and passed this home but these power lines were still live.

one of them broke loose, was just crackling and lay down they think, on this house and that was the end of it. the question of why the power shutoff wasn't done is on a long list of questions that locals have right now, while they're grieving, while they're processing the biggest forensic space can you imagine. i was stunned that the police chief told us out of 96 souls lost, they've only identified two. so the idea that right now there are family members who know they're a widow, may know they're an orphan and because of that their father or sister may have stayed behind and they have to give dna. it's soul crushing.

the sense of community and family give these folks the best chance of pulling out of this of any i've ever met around the world. the helpers are there but a lot of them are saying it would be nice to have any official presence. you've got volunteers who cut down all these trees on this road which were taken down and laying across. they said it would be great if there was somebody in uniform to come check on us. >> bill weir, thank you very much. very gatefrateful to have bill there. >> and next, gas prices on the rise. americans paying hundreds more every month. can they go inflation under control? and the offensive in ukraine, narrowly avoiding russian fire overhead and on the ground.

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rubles to a dollar. lost your mutual fund? putin is a -- and a thief. i wanted to begin with the u.s. economy, the one-year anniversary. gas prices are soaring once again. the average price of a gallon, regular hit 3.85, up 28 cents from just one month ago. how worried are you about this , secretary? >> of course this is an area of uncertainty but we're certainly well off the highs. and more broadly inflation has

come way down, something that's been a tremendous concern to americans. over the last three months, inflation has been running just around 2%. so i think the inflation news has been overall excellent. while there are still risks, we've got a good, strong labor market with unemployment with a low and the economy continues to grow. >> as you point out, the rate of inflation has been plunging. it's a fair point. last month consumer prices were up 3.2% compared to july of last year. a year ago when you looked at july to july, prices were up 8.5%. obviously it is a huge improvement, as you say. but the direction is still a green arrow, right? according to moody's, the typical household spend $202 more last month on the same

services it did a year ago, $709 more than two years ago. the rate of inflation has plunged but the numbers are still going up, it's a real hardship. what do you say to those families? can you tell them that prices will actually go down? >> so, i don't want to say that the level of prices will go down but i think inflation will subside to rates that are quite normal and within the range that the fed is seeking to target. president biden has worked with congress and within the administration to do what we can to lower our prices and give americans relief. the inflation reduction act had many features to do that, including cuts in health insurance premiums, in drug prices, the cost of insulin was

capped at $35 a month and, you know, we're working oil releases last year from the strategic petroleum reserve, i think made a big difference in the gas prices people had to pay but inflation remains a problem we're focused on. >> on that front, the economy is by far the top issue in this election. the latest cnn polls shows that 75% of americans believe the economy is in poor condition and maybe that's because, again, even though inflation rates have come down, they are still paying more. 63% of people in this poll disapprove of how president biden is handling the economy. what do you say, secretary yellen, to the clear majority of americans who simply do not believe that the administration is helping them? >> well, you know, americans know best, i think, about their own personal finances. and it is important to recognize

that when they're asked how are they personally doing, over 70% of americans say that they're very comfortable with their financial situation. so they seem to perceive the economy as a whole as doing less well than they are personally. but most americans feel good about their own economic situation. and of course i'm here in nevada today to talk to people about president biden's economic plan over the last year, where wages have been rising in almost all sectors of the economy and the biggest gains have gone to low-income workers who have seen a significant reduction in equality. >> madam secretary, the ruble hit a 17-month low against the u.s. dollar.

one penny is an entire rubel. they're calling putin out over it, whether it was hacked into or not. there it is, one ruble to a dollar. putin is an expletive and a thief. here we are nearly a year and a half into the war. how much impact do you think it is having now on americans? >> well, it continues to have impact on americans beyond the money that we're spending to support ukraine, the cutting off of ukrainian grain from russia's decision to end the baltic grain initiative is pushing up food prices with the biggest toll in the poorest countries of the world and it continues to have some impact on gas prices. but, as you mentioned, the ruble has declined in value, which is

a reflection of the fact that our sanctions, our programming sanctions with our allies and the war is causing a drain on the russian economy. >> secretary, i want to ask you one more thing. you recently were in china. you ate dinner at a restaurant chain called in and out. i should say to americans not to be confused with the burger joint. you set off a frenzy because you ordered a mushroom dish that contains what are considered magic mushrooms. now these mad mushroom dishes are selling out at that branch in china. you have sparked all this. may i ask you, i'm curious, what was it like, the mushroom experience? >> so i went with this large group of people and the person who had arranged our dinner did the ordering. there was a delicious mushroom dish. i was not aware that these

mushrooms ha dhallucinogic properties. >> i was wondering if the mushrooms were cooked properly, would they have no impact? all of us enjoyed the mushrooms, the restaurants and none of us felt any ill effects at having eaten them. >> now they're selling in at in and out china. madam secretary, thank you very much for your time. i appreciate it. >> you bet, erin. >> and next, what's happening inside that fulton county courthouse. the judge is set to leave shortly. we have the details next. and in the trenches, our own

pap paton walsh with ukrainian forces under fire everywhere around them. u just enter your le plate or your vin, answer a few questions. boom, you get a real offer. sell your car to carvana today. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [baby crying] ♪ ♪

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news and our top story tonight. these are live pictures of the fulton county courthouse in georgia, where another indictment against president trump could be returned at any moment. journalist george chity is inside the courthouse. he was supposed to be a guest on the show tonight. he's still waiting to testify before the grand jury. ryan goodman is back with me. ryan, let's start with what that tells you. i should note george cheatty is a journalist. he talked about what he witnessed was when georgia was supposed to certify the election, he walked into a room on a different floor to a fake slate of electors. so, he has a very specific story to tell. but he is in there, and he has been waiting now for quite some time. >> he might be the final witness, totally independent outside of politics, a journalist, but that his testimony is only relevant to a few minutes. so, that's why we could still very welsl see the indictment

tonight. that's maybe somebody the jury wants to hear from or the district attorney thought they should hear from, as an independent voice and a witness to that incredibly important meeting. >> i should say also he's about to appear before the same people that geoff duncan, the former lieutenant governor stood before. he described them, geoff duncan did, as serious and intense, referring to the grand jury themselves. for all of us, those are our peers. those are the american citizens who were randomly called to be on a grand jury in fulton county, georgia. >> that's right. and the way he described it, it is such a solemn and awesome task and responsibility they have in front of them. so, the way in which he described how concentrated they were and that they were ready to have this high-level discussion with him in all the details just shows how seriously they're taking this issue, of course, and that they're maybe trying to just figure it out by the end of tonight. no need to go into a second day. >> let me talk about this, by the end of tonight.

the judge said, okay, just hang in for about another hour. which at the time she was reporting that would have put the timing around 8:15 to 8:30ish. but do you think at that time that would be a formal indictment, or is there any chance there's anything shy of that? >> i don't think so. it sounds as though the only reason the judge would want to have the journalists stay around is because something big like that is going to drop. it's not like i'm keeping you around so i can tell you to come back in the morning zpchlt the judge himself is stay there. he actually said, i usually leave at 5:00 p.m. >> you would need to receive the indictment. >> exactly. >> all right. we await, of course, any kind of an update, as we watch that. and i should also say that the lieutenant governor said, the lieutenant governor of georgia, said a block and a half away from the capitol, he had never seen security around that fulton county courthouse like he saw tonight when he walked out just a few moments ago and came on this program. next e exclusive, a first

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tonight, ukraine's defense

minister saying the country has the most mines and trap explosives in the world. and tonight we have exclusive access to the team finding those mines. nick paton walsh is "out front" on the front lines. >> reporter: the fires still smolder at dusk. moving to the front, ukraine's counteroffensive. a few hours ago, intense bombardment around this area. and now is sun is setting, as the occasional round being fired. most of it seems to be towards russian positions. we're here to learn of a new tactic that may help ukraine overcome one of the hardest obstacles here, mine fields. shell fire is a constant overhead. the drone unit used daylight to help direct artillery fire.

>> so, they're using to correct the shell is fired. >> reporter: a note they must keep hidden. [ speaking in a non-english language ] >> reporter: there's still the basic problem that it's trench warfare and mine fields. and that, by definition, makes the going slow. but as the sky darken and the air cools here, an advantage has emerged. one of their drones is equipped with a thermal camera, and they've noticed out in the wide cratered fields, about four kilometers away where the russians hide, something new. some of these white dots are russian land mines. they're attained through the heat of the summer sun, as the earth around them cools. the contrast is greatest at dusk or dawn, experts say.

so, they seem to glow. the unit told us they use special charges to blow up the mines. it's not a precise science. but a huge help in seeing an invisible enemy. [ speaking in a non-english language ] >> reporter: encircled by mines, don't try to tell them their counteroffensive could be faster. [ speaking in a non-english language ]

>> reporter: there's little time to reflect though. run, go, go, go. as a russian helicopter is spotted coming right at them. we take cover for it to pass. this is the kind of threat they endure every day with one just piece of information could send them running for cover. and then we leave. hours after we left, we're told that trench network came under heavy russian attack, which they repelled. but the grind is constant and respite rare. any advantage, no matter how small, urgently welcome. nick paton walsh near kharkiv, ukraine. >> my thanks to nick and to all of you for being with us. of you for being with us. "ac 360" begins now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com tonight on "360," all eyes t