by the democrats are that there are democrats who are out there to get the former president. okay, let's just allow him that not saying that it's true. but it's not binary. there can be democrats and people who are out there to get the president, but there can also be legitimacy to this investigation as well. it's not one or the other. it can be both and we don't even know what's in the indictment. yeah let's wait. step by step. okay. we have a lot of head cnn this morning continues right now. morning everyone and here we are on a historic day here in the united states. very big news. big news this morning, the former president trump in indicted sources tell cnn trump is expected to turn himself in just days from now, as he is facing more than 30 counts related to business fraud. the key witness in this case, trump's former fixer michael cohen, his lawyer will join us live in just a few minutes.

we're also going to have expert analysis on just how historic this indictment really is. the political fallout that's unfolding how it could potentially benefit trump. i'll tell you what's happening right now. moments ago here in new york city, alvin bragg, the manhattan district attorney, arrived at his office just hours after former president donald trump was indicted. we've learned this morning that trump had been asked by braggs office to turn himself in today to face those criminal charges here in new york, but his defense lawyers say that trump and the secret service needed more time to coordinate his surrender. after yesterday's historic indictment, sources tell cnn the former president is facing more than 30 counts. they're related to business fraud. and he is expected to turn himself in. on tuesday. the manhattan district attorney's case is centered around those hush money payments. surrounding stormy daniels caitlin's reporting that number of members of trump's camp were caught off guard by that indictment yesterday because they thought perhaps the da's case might be falling apart . so leyla santiago starts us off this hour and mar-a-lago

near mar-a-lago first. so let's go right downtown, bridging grass outside the courthouse in manhattan, britain. good morning to you. we just alvin bragg. arrived there, and the nypd has really been preparing for this. yeah listen, they have been preparing this for a couple of weeks now, of course, because we also thought this was going to happen. you know, last week so their preparations have been in place certainly ramped up. let me show you around a little bit as you guys just mentioned. the district attorney, alvin bragg is now in the building where he works at his his car right there. we are now seeing increase in security, even more than what i saw just about 45 minutes ago when i last saw you guys, of course, though, there is a lot happening behind the scenes that we do not see. of course, the intelligence officials are monitoring online chat rooms. social media keeping an eye on how things progress in terms of chatter in case any sort of protestor demonstrations are planning to come to new york and start to break out. that is partly why the entire nypd force

every single person, no matter the rank or position is going to be in uniform today, so there can be quick mobilization should any protests break out today into the weekend? and, of course, now, all eyes on tuesday when that arraignment is expected, learning from a source that still the planning that conversations have begun. in terms of that arrangement, how that will take place where that will take place, and those conversations are ongoing, of course, will be continuing to check in with our sources to find out how those conversations continue. guys developing very quickly, brynn thank you for that. reporting a little santiago live west palm beach, florida layla. good morning to you. what? what do we know about where the former president is now and have we heard from him? we understand he's right here right behind me at mar-a-lago as you see and listen, a lot of eyes are there right now to see if there's any sort of movement any sort of insight as to what the former president's next move could be on this. i got to tell you this morning. we haven't really seen anything out of the norm from the outside. but

here's what we've learned about what happened on the inside last night, cnn learning that president trump was here prepping political attacks against governor ron desantis when his team um, learned of this indictment something that they were bracing for, but were caught off guard by the timing of this. we also understand through our cnn reporting that he was still moving forward with dinner with gas had dinner with melania last night also mar-a-lago and i want to read to you the statement that he put out yesterday after this indictment, and i'll quote him. it says this is political persecution and election interference at the highest level in history. the democrats have lied, cheated and stolen and their obsession. trying to get trump. but now they've done the unthinkable indicting a completely innocent person in an act of blatant election interference. now, listen, a lot is still unknown right now, but again, keeping a close eye here to see if there's any movement and any indication of how this could move forward on tuesday,

preparation for tuesday, when we believe he will be arraigned. i have spoken to local law enforcement to see if they have been requested for anything at this point. i have been told that is not the case. but this is something that secret service would handle. so we will continue to monitor not only mar-a-lago but also the trump plane, which still remains airport here. very good point. leyla santiago. thank you for that reporting right near mar-a-lago. so we know michael cohen played a central role in the hush money episode. he is deeply involved in the investigation. he met with the manhattan district attorney more than 20 times, and he spoke to my cnn colleague alison camerata and me just last night. listen in. i am a convicted felon. i am a disbarred lawyer, but i also brought the documents. there's plenty of testimony corroborating testimony to go around. and at the end of the day we have an indictment today . so clearly, that means that the information provided was more than enough for the grand jury to come back with the

determination for an indictment , by the way for donald, since we're talking about convicted felons see on tuesday, pal. it was a wide ranging interview about 20 minutes or so, last night here on cnn, his first on camera interview after the indictment was handed down there. you see lanny davis, michael cohen's lawyer. he joins me now, lenny. good morning to you. thank you so much for joining us. good morning, guys to respond now to trump's attorney, joe tacopina, speaking out this morning. this is what he said about your client watch. if we don't know what the actual charges are, but we do know it centers around, you know illegal very common confidentiality agreement that was signed two years and years ago with stormy daniels and between her attorneys and michael cohen. those were the parties to the confidentiality agreement, so it's nothing more than that, which is really what makes this shocking. lenny. what's your response? yeah well, first of all, let's all remember from vice president pence last night

, not telling the truth on cnn to mr tacopina, who i've worked with. nobody knows the facts in this case, so let's start with three questions. i hope you'll be asking your guests, including the politician from florida. that one is the southern district of new york. federal prosecutors conducted a thorough investigation evolving an extensive search michael cohen's office and apartment they found as a matter of fact that donald trump directed the word they used michael cohen to pay the hush money, and they found the seriousness of this crime to be so serious that it endangers our democracy because it thwarts the american people from knowing information such as a possible affair with stormy information with story there. daniel so that's backed one about the southern district of new york's 23 quickly, please, lenny, we don't remember. i want to make sure we get it all in. so what's what are you said? there are three things you hope i would too quickly, and the second one is the fact of whether donald trump is to be believed, versus

michael cohen and all the documents and all the witnesses, whether he had any political motivation to make that a direction, according to federal prosecutors to michael cohen to pay the hush money. that's the question before the jury. mr tacopina isn't addressing that question. he's gonna have a hard time convincing a jury that donald trump had no political motivation waiting just before the election to direct michael to pay the hush money. okay that's one of my questions and number three is what number three is credibility of michael cohen and whether that matters a lot. of course it matters. he testified in public under oath before elijah cummings in tens of millions of people. he did not take the fifth amendment, as did mr trump before the grand jury. and as you said 20 interviews corroborated by documents, and that's the main thing. i want to stress this morning. i've been in the room with michael all 20 times this group of prosecutors in new york i depending upon emails, text messages, telephone calls. other witnesses. there is so much corroboration here that everyone

speaking with rhetoric about politicization and weaponization , all these adjectives. i'm talking facts. this is a very factual case corroborated by a lot of information. everyone is going to be surprised how extensive the documents and the corroboration are in this case. okay, so let's talk a little bit. i want you to drill down on that because you can you're in the position as an attorney. to say more than michael cohen can say as a witness or potential witness in and upcoming trial, so let's dig in on that does the district attorney have documents for trial that go beyond what is publicly known? it sounds like that's what you're saying. are there more financial dealings that we don't know about lanny? okay? a lot more. you do know about something. i don't hear your reporters, mentioning which is the president, united states as a sitting president, writing $35,000 a month checks and mr labeling them as legal fees, which he knew was a lie. so the

federal prosecutors said, no, they weren't legal fees. they were reimbursements for the direction to pay hush money. that's the fact that you know, but what you don't know is the extent of corroboration of everything to prove political motivation, and that's what the case is about. mike pence said last night. it's about life. into congress. he didn't finish the sentence, and i would appreciate everybody on cnn finishing the sentence. he lied to congress at the direction of donald trump. he paid the hush money at the direction of donald trump. that's not me speaking. that's the federal prosecutors in a document filed publicly, so the amount of corroboration and detail are more than anybody knows, and mr tacopina, using rhetoric isn't going to get around the fact that he's faced with corroboration, witnesses, documents telephone calls emails , all of it corroborating that mr trump was politically motivated, and the southern district said this is a serious crime, mike pence said last night. it's just a campaign

finance. don't uh, violation. no it's not, the district prosecutor said publicly. it's such a serious crime that impairs our democracy because the american people were prevented from knowing information by somebody paying hush money. okay michael cohen went to jail, but now we have to look at donald you gotta let me get in here. okay again. i'm going to ask you the question again because you said there's a lot i want to know. what does the district attorney have documents for trial that go beyond what is publicly known and are there more financial dealings that we don't know about? you said. you said a lot. like what? like documents, memorialize ng the decision to pay the hush money like telephone calls like emails, like other witnesses involved in the payment of the hush money, like another crime called karen macdougal, which michael cohen was forced to plead guilty to as a politically motivated payment to keep her quiet. so there's a two crimes that michael played guilty to that donald trump with another witness will be

corroborating this, so that's what you don't know. is it substantial volume of these documents of witnesses? is of emails, text messages that corroborate the crime of politically motivated hush money. okay that my colleague john miller is coming up shortly here. he has been reporting since yesterday that it's 34 criminal counts. okay do you know anything about what the charges will be lanny? i don't know what in the number 34 i know that donald trump committed financial fraud by not booking and writing checks as a sitting president. i'm just imagining another sitting president had written checks on his personal checking account while in the oval office. that's a fact to michael cohen and called them legal fees, knowing that they were reimbursements. his own lawyer, rudy giuliani, contradicted trump has said, no, they're not legal fees. the federal district said. no they're not legal fees. so those are where the frogs solent activities occurred by mr trump

, and it's not in dispute. that's what's amazing to me that mr tacopina has to face mr giuliani, contradicting his own client that no. these weren't legal fees. the federal district prosecutors know they're not legal fees. that's where i suspect a lot of fraudulent. okay alright, lenny, listen, i have to go. but i want to ask you. you're an attorney. you're sitting there you have been in with clients before you were there for every you set interview that he did with alvin brags office correct here. so judging by the questions, and every time you went back, i'm sure the questions they went from 30,000 ft to three ft. or however you wanna classified however you you want to put it here? so considering what the questions were. and what you were observing. where do you think the charges will go here? what do you think it is? i think the charges in the granular detail that this group of professionals that we spend so much time with asking michael

about different documents and all of the corroborating evidence. i think where this goes to is a jury with a single question. do you believe donald trump's denial that just before the election directing michael to pay this $130,000 from his own funds? do you believe that donald trump was politically motivated? that is the only question between a crime and a non crime and it's about american democracy, as the southern district said, so that to me is a way of simplifying it all down and please finish the sentence. yes michael cohen light the direction of donald trump, please. all of you finished that sentence. lenny davis. thank you very much. i appreciate you joining us this morning. absolutely significant news out of that interview with with lanny davis will continue on that. the news of trump's indictments and shockwaves across washington. our democrats on the hill reacting carson dan goldman was a lead counsel in trump's first impeachment trial member of congress. he joins us

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celery juice and, of course, in just 20 seconds, you can make a delicious smoothie to just at your favorite fruit, milk, ice and order yours now exclusively from blanchett .com and prepared to be mesmerized. hi good morning and welcome back to cnn this morning. we have been discussing a lot when it comes to the historic indictment of former president trump that happened yesterday. joining us now, with their perspective on this is former federal prosecutor of the southern district of new york and cardozo law school professor jessica roth and our cnn chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst john miller. both here with us this morning. thank you so much. for being here. gloria borger is also here. i should note she is joining us remotely from washington. d c. hi gloria. you're not with us, but still here. gloria actually want to start with you, gloria? because you know lanny davis and michael

cohen. very well. you are incredibly well sourced. what do you make of what lanny davis just said. well i think lanny davis says michael cohen's attorney wanted to get out there and say to the american public don't forget. ah that michael cohen is someone who went to jail over some of these issues and by the way, he was directed to pay the hush money to stormy daniels by donald j. trump as he put it, and i think that's the message. he wants to sort of get over and over and over again, and i think you know michael cohen being out there himself. your attorneys can can tell you whether that's wise or not wise , but he is trying to restore his credibility with the american people. and say, okay, i'm not just a guy who went to jail. i'm not just the fixer. i know exactly what happened, and i paid the price. and donald trump should then pay the price as well. what neither of them can answer or did answer, i

think is the question of whether what started as a paperwork issue has apparently evolved into a criminal felony again. we don't know what's in the indictment, but we don't we have to understand the arc of the paperwork to criminal felony. which we at this point? i don't know. i was watching you watching don's interview with lanny davis, and there was a moment where you were nodding when don kept pressing him to answer the question of. well. are there more documents we don't know about? are there more payments we might not know about ? why were you nodding? what's the significance of that too? i mean, he answered it. uh he seemed to indicate that there were documents. i'm very curious to know what those are since reportedly, donald trump doesn't use text. he doesn't use email. and so unless that's not true, and we actually have text and email and documents with donald trump. perhaps these are communications with other people that reflect communications with trump, or that also show how the records were used at the trump

organization. go on why you said you want to know that, too? why? because i want to know what corroboration there is from michael cohen. that's key, and we know that there is david pecker who will give corroboration i imagine for why these payments were made to stormy daniels and to karen macdougal because david pecker was part of conversations about them being part of campaign expenditures to help donald trump in his campaign, so david pecker is going to be critical people from the trump campaign like kellyanne conway and hope hicks will also be critical if they were involved in communications about those payments and can testify that they were to further donald trump's campaign interests. but i also want to know who from the trump organization has testimony and documents that will reflect how those payments were reflected in the business records of the trump organization, and for what purposes those records were used. john so a lot of things happening today. there will be a

meeting today with the new york state court officers, the nypd that secret service to go through the mechanics of tuesday . there will also be a walkthrough where they actually go through the root of how they're going to bring the former president into the building. up to where he will be booked, and then the critical route, which is between there and the courthouse where he's going to be arraigned and that walked through will examine. do you freeze public hallways to bring him through without access to the press and the public? do you take him through some kind of controlled gauntlet with barriers? do you bring him in the back way that is used to transport prisoners to the holding blocks and into the courtroom, so they're going to walk through all of those versions and figure out which is the most practical and which is the most low risk. and at the same time they are still having everybody show up in uniform. today they'll decide today

whether that goes through the weekend while they're scanning social media for news of demonstrations. that's how the modern demonstration is born is it's born on social media, and it grows there and so far, what they're not seeing is anything major that's unfolding there, but that will be something that they're doing right up to the moment. that is new york city. you know, new yorkers. would you like to think we're the center of the universe? this is when it comes to this particular thing. what about the rest of the country? john? well so the rest of the country is doing the same thing. there's a group called the major cities chiefs, which is the 70 some odd major cities in the us and their intelligence commanders are all linked in a network and they trade information back and forth. what are you seeing there? what are you seeing here, but what we learned from, you know the time a couple of weeks ago when donald trump was saying probably i'm going to be indicted on on monday. i'm gonna be arrested on tuesday. he was right just the two weeks later tuesday later. um you know, the model they were

seeing is, you know, he controlled the narrative by saying i'm going to have a rally in texas. you know, this is going to be my gathering. it's not going to be something where i'm calling on people you know, to show up at the courthouse. um so what they're looking for is will it be similar? will it be an event that he controls at a venue that he controls? maybe not outside the courthouse. and then there is. the other question is does he address the press? at the courthouse. there you go. see, addressed the oppressed. does he address the press somewhere in new york later in a controlled environment or back down in palm beach, those plans are still being finalized. we're told, but john jessica, thank you both gloria as well. thank you all for joining us, gloria, come back and see us more often. we miss you was far away. i know. maybe i'll come back to new york and sit around the table. looks like i will again. thanks guys. everyone thank you. thank you all very much. we're going to talk about how democrats in congress are reacting to the trump indictment with us in studio congressman dan goldman

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rallying support among his allies on capitol hill yesterday, vowing to fight these historic charges against him, and a number of congressional republicans responded, blasting the indictment in defending the former president. house speaker kevin mccarthy called the indictment quote unprecedented abuse of power. house judiciary chairman jim jordan called it outrageous white house while house i should say majority leader steve scalise accused democrats of quote weaponizing. the government to attack their political opponents. let's talk to a democratic congressman about it. daniel goldman see what he thinks he's a former federal prosecutor. very afro poor right now also was the lead counsel democratic counsel in trump's first impeachment trial . good morning. good morning. thank you very, very much, so let me just actually start out caitlin this green interview with one of trump's attorneys, not in this case, but representing him in the documents, probe and others. um jim trustee. here's what he said in terms of how the trump team will likely respond in the next few days. here he was. legal gymnastics. they're going to

fall apart. so i would think in very short order, you'll see a motion to dismiss or several motions to dismiss talking about this kind of impossible theory of stacking a federal crime into a state misdemeanor statute of limitations issues and very importantly, the intent to defraud. that's an element of these false recordkeeping charges. that's just not present here. motion dismissed coming soon. your response responses. nobody knows what the indictment says. nobody knows what he's being charged with. nobody knows what the evidence is. nobody knows what the legal theory is. there's a tremendous amount of speculation because there have been a few leaks and people just are taking those as true. and i can tell you as a former prosecutor. i used to always say about 50% of the information and leaks is accurate. you just don't know which 50% that is. but if reports are true that this is more than 30 he counts in the indictment. there's going to be more than just the stormy daniels hush money payment. and

so, you know, i see my colleagues on the republican side bashing the district attorney is partisan and that this is attack on justice. they don't know what the evidence is. so how can they actually say that legitimately and on with any foundation when they don't know what the charges are? let's get back to what it appears. the charges. um from john miller's reporting are about business records and falsification. but let's talk about in a moment, the sort of unprecedented nature of putting a federal charge on top of a state charge but you just talked about some of the republican pushback on this has been to say alvin bragg is politicizing this etcetera. are you comfortable with the statements that he made about? prosecuting trump, etcetera. he said he boasted while he was running in 2021 for this position. it's a fact that i have sued trump more than 100 times. are you comfortable with those statements? yes, because he's talking about retrospectively. he didn't ever

say that he was going to do anything, and he said it while he was campaigning, and but let's look at what he has done in in office, and this is what people forget. he rejected the recommendation of very senior and experienced prosecutors to indict donald trump. mark pomerantz. yes to indict donald trump a year ago, and at the time, many republican supporters of donald trump said, oh what a virtuous and valuable rule of law follower. he is that he didn't indict now that he's indicting on a different case. all of a sudden, he's a partisan hack. you can't have it both ways completely different cases, sort of half of the case of pomerantz was talking. don't know about fair enough. we don't by the way its power its case was a valuations case about his erties about insurance fraud about was part of it. that was that was that was a big part of it. but let me ask you about because you yourself congressman have said that this case it hush money payments and the

accounting of them is not is not the most dangerous case of former president faces. if this is what our reporting indicates , and if this would put federal charges on stop on top of a state charges you're in a state crime. it is uncharted legal territory. how high is a prosecutor with your knowledge? how difficult is that to get a conviction on? let's be clear that the notion of a false business records offense becoming a felony is very common. the question here is whether you can use the concealment of a federal crime in order to make it a felony. but i'm confident that that will play out in the court. and if donald trump is right, and his lawyers are right, and this is an untested and unfounded legal theory, then they'll win a motion to dismiss. but what's really important poppy is this has to play out in a court of law. it should not play out in

the political sphere, and it's certainly should not play out. the halls of congress because congress has no jurisdiction. to intervene and interfere in a local prosecution, and that's what the republicans are trying to do. when you talk about weaponizing the government they are trying to interfere in an ongoing prosecution in support of their leader, and not with anybody sending that letter to brag, etcetera trying to yeah, to him about it now. you're an attorney as well as a congressman, if you were trump's attorney in this case this morning how would you be advising him? what would you be doing? well as i said long ago, donald trump is perhaps the most difficult client any lawyer has ever had. what i would recommend he do is shut up, but that's not what he's ever going to do. and he views all of this as political and he views his defense as a political defense made to the public. but the problem is this is not even like impeachment when i led the

impeachment because it's not a political system. it is a legal process and when you get in the confines of a court, all these rules are different, and you can't be making these political statements. the judge will not allow it quickly. if indian michael cohen is the star witness, he appeared before this grand jury so many times. how concerned would you be? then if you were in brett on brexit team prosecuting this about his credibility issues. the fact that you know, he has nine different counts of lying, including of including tax evasion, including one kind of line of congress. right, so there's no question michael cohen brings a lot of baggage and he is a difficult witness, and i'm sure from the manhattan d a s perspective, they would very much like michael cohen to also shut up. but what they will have evaluated in great depth is what corroborating evidence there is for michael cohen's testimony. what is david pecker from? am i saying that is consistent with what michael

cohen is saying, what are the documents say? what are the records say? what do the recording there's a recording of michael cohen and donald trump? let's not forget that we played it earlier, so that's very, very powerful evidence. and so the evaluation you make is of course, he brings all this baggage. but what can you say to the jury, and one thing that's very powerful to the jury is to say. i pled guilty to campaign finance fraud, and i did it at the direction of donald trump so they can throw as much mud as they want it, michael cohen. but as we used to say, as a prosecutor, it bounces back from cohen right onto donald trump, who directed him to do that crime congressman dan goldman. thank you. it's good to have you in person. appreciate it, galen. perspective this morning. also russia now crossing a line. it is not crossed. since 1986. they've been arrested. an american journalist on charges of espionage president biden actually just wait in a moment ago, and we spoke exclusively to trevor reid, who obviously has experience with this. he was released from a russian prison less than a year ago will show

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biden was just asked about the arrest of an american reporter for the wall street journal who has been detained in moscow now accused of espionage. biden's answer. quote let him go. he was also asked if the u. s would expel russian diplomats over the matter, he said, that is not the plan right now to bring you up to speed. evan gersh covic was accused of trying to steal state secrets about a russian military factory. you can see him here. these are accusations. obviously we should take with a grain of salt, considering where they are coming from. in a statement, the journal said it vehemently denies the allegation. it is seeking the immediate release of our trusted and dedicated reporter. few people know what evan gorski, which is going through right now, but one of them is a marine veteran trevor reid. he was released last april in a prisoner swap after he was detained in russia for 985 days. i spoke to trevor about the arrest of evan herskovitz and what he's going through. you have an experience that that so few people have because to a degree, you know what he's going through. can you just remind us

what were your first few hours and detention? like? what do you imagine that he's going through right now? the first few hours when you're wrongfully detained or extremely confusing. you're in a state of shock. um they're also in a state of denial. you're thinking that there's no possible way that this is happening to me. maybe it's just a nightmare. maybe i'm gonna wake up in this didn't happen. and unfortunately for me that. that kind of, you know, just surreal feeling lasted for basically the whole almost three years that i was detained. yeah and when he was whenever was formally arrested, his own attorney wasn't even allowed in the courtroom. you obviously dealt close and personally with the russian judicial system, as i guess we'll call it how do you fear that he's going to be

treated by them? there's no there's no question that the russian judicial system is a joke. it's a facade. they violate all of their own rules, regulations laws there and there's no type of accountability for russian officials who who break those laws. they can basically do anything that they want. unfortunately they will do whatever they want. some members of congress have said they think he basically just outright called this hostage situation. do you agree with that? yeah absolutely. i think that it's ah. the wrongful detention is equivalent to taking a hostage. they've clearly done this for political purposes to gain some kind of leverage over the united states or make make an example out of them to make a point. maybe it's like a revenge thing

. do you worry that that treatment the way they treated? you has only gotten worse the way they're treating americans now. absolutely. i think that as russia becomes more desperate due to sanctions there were in ukraine failing, uh you know political pressure from the united states. i think that the more desperate they get the more brutal and kind of apathetic they're going to be regarding, you know our citizens there. what does it say to you about the state of us russia relations at this point? taking a journalist. that kind of puts it into perspective for you how desperate the russians have become, i think you know the next step after taking our journalists hostage there is basically, diplomats is the next level, and it says something about how far they're willing to go. what do you think president

biden should do in this moment? what do you want to see from the u. s government here? i want to see some definite action. you know, they're going to have to. to make some type of agreement to get him out. i don't know if that's going to involve a prisoner exchange, but i think that it's our government's duty to do whatever it takes to get innocent americans out. and also on that note. i want to thank you because it's actually a year since you asked president biden if he would meet with my parents at the white house trouble you, mr president while they're here in washington. i'm going to see if i can get to see them. they're good. they're good people. i haven't. we're trying to work that out. i mom will get real angry with me. if i don't don't mention that and say thank you from all of us. parents are amazing, and that was what any reporter should do anything to help. it was good to see him

very good interview, and it's good to say it's a little bit earlier. he's in good mental health right now. it appears perspective like no one else. yeah sure pence, sitting down with cnn for an exclusive interview. not long after news broke of the indictment against his former boss. i think the unprecedented indictment the former president of the united states on a campaign finance issue. is an outrage. up next we will talk to pence's former chief of staff about the historic trump indictment. there he is live on the other side of the break. i i think i'm ready r this. yeah the trade. you're ready for anythining. marriage kids college, moving back in after college. finally we can eat. you know you make me won't we looked around and said, wait a minute. this isn't even our stroller. you live with your parents, but you want a house in the metaverse. cool i don't get

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your tacopina, one of the president, former president attorney saying that there's no way his client will take a plea deal after his indictment. what is trump's former vp and possible presidential candidate mike pence. think about it. here's what he told our wolf blitzer just last night. no one is above the law, including former presidents. maybe clear on that point. and the american people know this. but in this case and controversy over campaign finance, i can't speak to the merits of this case at all. but i can speak to the issue emanating out of the question over campaign finance. should never have risen to the level to bring and unprecedented and historic prosecution against the former president. so let's discuss now with pence's former chief of staff, mark short, mark , good to see you. thank you so much for joining us this morning for having is it a contradiction to on one hand, said that nobody . even the former president is above the law. but then, on the

other hand, say that there shouldn't be an indictment for trump because the details are unknown now, mark yeah, that that's fair, don i think there's a paradox there, but i think you're asking for the prosecutor to have some discretion. if the reality is the prosecutor has campaigned on a pledge to voters that he's going to prosecute donald trump, regardless of the facts, and if the federal government has passed on the prosecution and the district attorney who preceded him passed on prosecuting, but he has made a campaign promise he's going to do this. i think it does leave a lot of questions. voters minds is whether or not this is a political trial. tickle persecution. so your point's well taken. i think that no one is above the law, but i do think as well. there has to be some level of prosecutorial discretion here. but in fact, didn't alvin bragg, the manhattan d a exercise that prosecutorial discretion a year ago when he decided not to pursue these charges at that time, something that infuriated some of his own prosecutors. some of them even quit like mark pomerantz at the time. yeah

probably. i don't know. i don't know enough about the details of this particular case, but i also think that if you step back politically, i think that for president trump, you know it enables him to sort of cast a shadow on other, perhaps more serious liabilities that he faces whether or not from the department of justice or potentially in georgia, and so it enables him to cast a shadow on potentially things that are more serious alibi. what do you what do you mean? i mean multiple because multiple charges can be brought at some alert times by different offices . sure, they can, poppy, but i think at the same time from a political perspective if your supporters believe that all of these are now politically charged politically based, i think it does just naturally have a have a impact on voters to say look, all of this is politically motivated. when i think the reality is that, as i said, i think that there's more serious liabilities related around the document case. the january six cases mark, can i ask you a question about something? pence was pressed on

by wolf blitzer that great interview last night, he was asked if he was going to appeal this decision that we got from a judge saying that pence must go and testify, basically shutting down the executive order argument that trump's legal team was trying to make a more nuanced version of the argument that pence's legal team was trying to make is meeting with his attorneys today. what's the what's the decision on that going to be katelyn polantz important to note that the vice president did not allege any executive privilege over his testimony. he was fighting on a constitutional principle on speech or debate, and this was a landmark decision through judge passed down this week for the first time acknowledging the vice president states is protected by that clause in the constitution. it was just a ruling that we received this week. he's meeting with his attorneys today. i don't think this will be long before he makes the final decision on that. well, we get that today. and will you publicly say what the decision is on it. i think he'll make his decision public. i can't promise you will be today, but it's not going to be long. you're putting a lot here on the political calculus versus the legal, right. so to

katelyn polantz chin. do you think that mike pence? i should , say vice president mike pence , testifying against donald trump in january 6th investigation. that if you do the calculations here that it could actually help him as a candidate, because i'm sure you all agree market correct me if i'm wrong. most of the country is not on the side of an insurrection of january. 6th most people are politically moderate in the way that they believe that what happened on january 6th was terrible that mike pence was a big focus of that and could have lost his life. don't you think that that could possibly help him if he actually said, you know what? i am going to testify? i want you to hear everything. you know, don, i don't think that the political implications going to be part of his consideration. they weren't on january 6th. many people have argued the easiest thing for him to do politically would have been to violate his oath to the constitution. but he stood on his principal. he stood on what his oath was, isn't do the same here and follow the rule of law and if he's a judge requires that he testified, and then he will testify. and she said

multiple times, there's nothing to hide. he's written about it publicly. he spoken about it poker. he's spoken about his disagreement. he's spoken about how tragic the day of january 6th was. and so i don't there's that much knew that it was that a jury will find, but i do think it was a principal. he wanted to stand on on speech or debate. mark. we love having you seriously. it's good. it's good to see you again. we remember when you were part of the family. i don't know if you finally remember that, but we didn't like having he was part of that. mark thanks back on this morning. well, thank you so much. thank you. thank you for joining us everyone this morning standing this morning. we hope you have a great weekend. cnn's coverage of former president donald trump's indictment continues right after this break. mm hmm. oh, love is bigger than

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