it. he's not going to like it at all. but he will come out and lean into it. as maggie said, agree. i completely agree with it. but you know, it is a completely sobering thing, and i think it's going to uh, it's gonna affect him deeply. van jones. what would i mean, we there's still so many so much about these charges. we do not know. exactly and i think that we need to wait and get more information, and we also need to start sticking up for alvin bragg. um you know, there is a group of people out there that say they're patriots. they have no respect for law enforcement. they beat up 100 cops and january six. they have no respect for the fbi. they call them the deep state and they have no respect for this prosecutor who is a law enforcement officer of his district trying to enforce the loss. um and the idea he's going to be smeared. he's going to be attacked this whole idea that he's george soros sponsored. most people don't know that goes into some very tricky territory in some parts of the right wing

that focus on the fact that george soros is jewish. there's a lot of nasty stuff began to swirl here against this d a against its prosecutor, and he needs to be defended and protected. want to thank my job. we find out what's actually going on. he needs to be defended the project. i think of my panel. our coverage continues right now. just about 10 p.m. here in manhattan, where the by this time next tuesday night if the schedule holds donald john trump child and product of new york will officially be defendant in a new york criminal matter. in our exclusive interview last hour with former vice president pence here's somebody told cnn's wolf blitzer about today's historic indictment. when you have an attorney general in new york manhattan, d a. that targeted one particular american in their campaigns. i think that offends the notion of the overwhelming majority of the american people who believe in fairness, who believe in equal treatment before the law, and this appears to be just one more example. wolf. of the kind of two tiered

justice system that the american people have had enough of it. that's the former vice president . in our last hour in this hour of our live breaking historic coverage, a conversation with the one figure who has been key to first the scandal, then the investigation and now the charges against former president donald trump, his old boss, michael cohen, former trump attorney and fix her. who himself paid stormy daniels the money that is apparently at the center of this indictment. first though, the very latest on the history made in lower manhattan tonight, and the plan pushback from team trump cnn's christian homes joins us now what are you hearing, kristen? yes anderson. so what we do know is that down at mar-a-lago, former president trump and his team were caught off guard. by the timing of this indictment. they had been planning for the last two weeks, essentially sitting on pins and needles expecting this to come. but because of the media reports about a planned hiatus about the grand jury, not meeting over this hush money case, they believe that they had some time.

so now they are kicking into gear. we have learned from a number of sources telling me that they're going to be rolling out surrogates. we've actually already seen it starting tonight. i'm talking about mark. the retailer green matt gates. they are all over conservative media. they are going to be doing podcasts. they're blasting themselves out on twitter, essentially attacking democrats alvin bragg, calling this a witch hunt and trump's team is keeping track of who it is responding and who is defending him? and who isn't they are putting out every potential 2024 gop contender and their defense of donald trump. they are monitoring all of the congressional house members. republicans seeing what they're saying about donald trump, and this is going to tyne you and of course, we're going to continue hearing from the former president himself after he released that lengthy statement . he has continued to lash out on social media, and we expect that to continue as well. but one thing to keep in mind here's interested. they're operating a lot of this in the dark. they learned about the indictment from media reports. they continue to learn about the timing the number of charges all

of that from media reports their second here behind what they're seeing and reading. so there are operating a bit here in the dark, but they are trying to come up with a plan. to take control of the narrative as they move forward, which is something as we know, is very important to the former president krista holmes. appreciate it. now former trump attorney michael cohen he is the author of revenge. how donald trump weaponized the u. s. department of justice against his critics. he's also the host of two podcasts. political beatdown is the first the other is called mia culpa. he's talking tonight with cnn anchors allison cameron and don lemon. ellison. don anderson. thank you very much we do want to bring in michael cohen. michael thank you so much for being here with us. don and i obviously have a lot of questions for you, as do the american people to of you back together. we appreciate you joining us. what a day it is for you today. and so this took a lot of people by surprise, including the amount of charges against former president so this is expected to be a 34 count indictment. 34 felony charges. do you understand why so many?

yes i understand. i can't go in and i can't discuss it. however 34 is a pretty significant number. it certainly goes well past the stormy daniels. hush money payments are some of these because you received multiple payments again. i can't go into any of the specifics of this case. it's just not right to due to the prosecutors. this is their case, one of the things that i continues to say is that at the end of the day, there is a since and you know, we do have to respect the do was and this case will ultimately be known to all of us. we will have the entire set of documents because there's no doubt in my mind that the former guy, we'll end up releasing them, according to the reporting each check 34 counts 34 count indictment, but each check is one indictment. i don't know that to be true, but even if it was that would be 12. it

was actually 11 checks because one of the checks january february were combined. the reporting today had to do with karen macdougal and also i want to. i want to talk about robert costello because donald trump's team sent robert costello in directly to try to counteract what you were saying. what does this say about the importance of the significance of what they saw in his testimony? it was a mistake, you know? bob costello provided clearly nothing. there was no um, testimony that he gave that i was even needed to rebut. that's all been reported . they had me there waiting for about two hours to be a rebuttal witness, but i wasn't needed, which means that the information that he provided was worthless. in fact, he did something interesting as well. he put all that information out for the entire world to see. and i was receiving dozens of phone calls from journalists alternative and saying to me, i've read all 300 plus documents, and i'm trying

to understand what bob costello was doing. it didn't make any sense because there's nothing in there. that contradicts anything that you're saying? if i can just follow up on the witnesses since we're there right now, let's look at the witnesses who have testified okay. david pecker. that's the character, karen macdougal catch and kill, right, um dylan howard. work for pecker. correct correct, correct . deborah tarasov worked at trump or she did. makani, this assistant controller work directly with alan weisberg. correct. correct bender is an accountant. correct kellyanne conway worked closely with donald trump allegedly knew about the stormy daniels payment . is that correct? let's just say that she worked for trump. i don't want to get into what she does and doesn't know. okay hope hicks worked closely with donald trump. yes and you feel like being grilled again by the d. a. should not be surprised by the reported charges. if you look at this list of witnesses, why because it lays out. what has

already been reported over the years. i mean, many of this. much of this information is not specifically brand new. i mean, it's been talked about over and over again for years. let's not forget this april. it's five years since the raid on my home hotel, the my law office. so this is a long time coming. this is not been like what they did to me. but the southern district. they give me 48 hours to plead guilty. they were filing an 80 page indictment against me and my wife, right? very, very different scenario here. this is five years to hold this man accountable now i do have to acknowledge that during that time period, he still was president of the united states. yes but during that time period you did as we understand it. 22 interviews with prosecutors and did it change did help us understand what you were telling them. those 22 different times was their line of questioning

different each time. it wasn't exactly the same. but there was a lot of overlap between when i first met with the district attorney's i was in otis ville, and then they came back two additional times. you were in prison when i was in prison underside vance you met, they came to otis ville. yes and then in additional, um, 10 times. once i was released i had met them with the marmara team and so and the carry down team. yes then 10 additional times with oven breaks team took over in 2022. you met with them numerous times and specifically since january. how many times 10 about 10 times, so a total of 22 times and so what brags investigation proceeded significantly faster. at the end of 2022, the beginning of 2023 between 2023 now did you know something was up when you look at the speed of

the questioning and the witnesses who were going in? no i mean, this is alvin brags office it he will operate this case the way he deems fit. to be honest with you. i had no idea that it was dropping today. myself. i was surprised. in fact , if you start to listen to all of the talking heads that are out there. you know these marvelous pundits that creates scenarios the end of the day. in all fairness, they've been wrong. what they're trying to do is they're trying to guess what's inside the christmas box, but they don't have they have absolutely no idea. and that's a mistake. we have to allow the prosecutors to do their job. i get it. people want to see accountability, and we've all been waiting for this accountability. that doesn't mean that alvin bragg or this team, and they're incredible. these prosecutors they're they're really incredible prosecutors. i can only tell you that they know all they have all the evidence they know everything by heart. and i do truly believe that this case is

very different than the way that so many of these talking heads wanted declared. i mean, how many people have been on this station sitting there? michael cohen is a convicted perjurer. yes that happens to be accurate , right? did i pled guilty to 1000 and one violation make the case more on more flimsy grounds. no why? well first of all, you have to finish the sentence and what's the sentence ? the sentence that you have to finish his, which i did at the direction of in coordination with them for the benefit of donald j. trump so, yes, i was in the camp. and yes, i made a mistake. mint. i lied. however what was the lie? the lie was the number of times that i spoke to donald trump about the failed trump tower moscow deal, i had told the senate permanent select committee on intelligence that it was 10 times. i'm sorry, three times when, in fact, the real answer was i had told him 10 times talking about this, donald trump. so today he put

out a fundraising email tonight. i should say after this information came out and he basically said in this email to his supporters, alvin bragg is relying on the testimony of a convicted felon and a disbarred lawyer. so what is your response to donald trump tonight? well, he's right. i am a convicted felon. i am a disbarred lawyer, but i also brought the documents . there's plenty of testimony corroborating testimony to go around. and come tuesday that all these witnesses were corroborating your testimony. let's just say i know i was there 22 times, so there's things that i that i know things that i believe corroborate and at the end of the day we have an indictment today. so clearly, that means that the information provided was more than enough for the grand jury to come back with the determination for an indictment. oh, by the way for donald, since we're talking about convicted felons c on tuesday, pal. so listen, considering what you just said

about that about your credibility about what donald trump says. given your the issue. um of credibility. and you're an attorney. you know how these things are, and you knew from the questioning what they were targeting. and don't tell me he didn't because i know that i know that you did. what kind of documentation are we talking about here? are we talking text messages? are we talking emails? are we talking? what are we talking about? also you have emails. you have text messages. recordings. they have all they have all the information. yeah this case does not hinge on your testimony. no i believe that the documents speak for themselves, and i do believe that we're all kind of jumping the gun just a tad in the fact that we don't even really know what these 34 council. it's. it's a lot of counts, no matter how you want to slice it. 34 is a lot of counts. so let's see what these charges are, and then we can all come back and we can all sit and try to figure out um more information. you you know what

the pundits and the analysts are saying that this is a weak case . why this one? georgia is a much stronger case. if folks are saying that this is this is not a weak case. i don't believe it's a weak case. uh, and that in that georgia could actually go first. they're saying that they don't coordinate right? they don't coordinate what happens with the justice system. they can coordinate court dates because defenders can't be if there are multiple indictments and different jurisdictions. coordinate court dates, but they don't coordinate indictments and they have to go when they have to go where the evidence leads. and there are things like the statute of limitations or what have you but technically fani willis in georgia if she does indict could go first they could coordinate and allow her to go to trial first, and this could go second, so that theory means nothing. who cares? i mean, this notion of oh, this is a weaker case than the january 6th. i acknowledge that january 6th was an insurrection like we haven't seen in what 150 years in this country where they attacked the

capital wanting to kill the vice president wanting to kill the speaker nancy pelosi. yes. that in and of itself is a worse crime than this, but doesn't make this any less of a crime. you know, i always call this the capone theory. the al capone theory. they couldn't get him on murder, extortion, racketeering , bootlegging, etcetera. they got him on tax evasion. if that crime done was enough for me to be charged. find convicted and sent to prison. why am i any different than donald trump? um right. we've also learned today that the d a was looking into the payment to karen macdougal. so she is the playboy model who also alleges that she had an affair with donald trump. so did you provide documents and testimony about can't tell you what i provided. but i can tell you that that is an accurate statement. how about both? yes. how about your conversations with between yourself and david? pecker like i said, i really don't want to go into the some

substance of any of the conversations, the documents and so on other than to say again, these prosecutors they've been working on this case a long time. not only did they work themselves incredibly hard, but there was a significant amount of information that was left over from the previous investigation. they're very, very knowledgeable about all of the alleged. ah! counts against donald trump. there is an audiotape of you speaking with donald trump about these payments, so let's remind everybody about that conversation. i need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david. so i'm all over that, and i spoke to alan about it when it comes time for the financing, which will be what financing paint your song. no no , no, no, no, i got no, no, michael. honestly, it doesn't sound as though donald trump is giving you instructions there. it sounds like you're giving him

instructions. you're saying here's how it's going to go. i have. you know, he says he's gonna be cash you say no, no, i've got it all covered, so we're there more payments made like this. you're going into the sum and substance of conversations that i may or may not have had with the district attorney's about donald trump. you have how many conversations like this did you have donald trump one? it's the one and only recording that i ever had of donald trump conversations. forget the recorded part of had many conversations about payments to donald trump again. you're going in a very clever way. alison you're going into again conversations that i may or may not have had with the district attorney's and to be very honest with you. i don't want to provide donald or his team with any insight yet into what's coming. i want him to be able to enjoy it. but you did provide congress with some insight. and this is what you said about so called catch and kill schemes. here it is. these catch and kill. scenarios existed between david pecker and

mr trump long before i started working for him in 2007. so if this long before you started working with him in 2007, what was different about the arrangements made during the donald trump when he was running for president. if this was if this happened long before 2000 going right back into the same sort of scenario, these are, um potential. topics that may i may or may not have had with the district attorney's let me say that i stand by that statement that i made to congress to the house oversight committee that this catch and kill methodology existed between david pecker and donald trump. well before i started working for the trump organization in 2007. so let's tell us this because you've lived through this. so you have been indicted and around what will it look like next week, which is the timing we hear is happening. what will it be like

to prison? he went to prison twice twice. what will it be like next week for former president trump? you know, he's right now trying to play the tough guy. oh, i'm going to, you know, make a spectacle out of this. first of all the grifter and chief is going to try to do exactly what he's been doing, and that's the fundraise off of it. i think he made over $2 million who are these dummies are that are giving their hard earned dollars for a guy who gets indicted. i'm not sure i didn't see anybody throwing that kind of money. when i end up getting indicted makes no sense to me at all. however, we do have to acknowledge that he is a former president. and there is a certain amount despite whether he you think he should or should not receive that benefit. here's a former president of the united states, and there's a certain way that we should handle this. first of all, there's a whole slew of issues. yeah he still has secret service protection, putting handcuffs on somebody who's in the custody and care of secret service is not simple,

different than your experience. let's just say much different. i don't think he's going to be handcuffed, according to sources , they said he's going to have an expedited arrangement right because of the unusual circumstances. there will probably be the mug shot is still up in the air. there will be handcuffed. i believe he's going to have to. he has to be processed. i'm hearing the shot is up in the air. that would be wrong. he will not spend any time because there's no reason on top of that. it creates all sorts of security issues to have the former president who again in the custody and care of secret service to have his hands behind his back. i'm told he won't spend any time behind bars that he will definitely be fingerprinted. why would you say you mean when he's because of the unusual so he won't be in? in what way? the holding personally, i don't want to see him. paraded that way, remember because he's a former president of the united states because i actually care more about the office of the presidency of the united states than he does. i don't want to see this made into

the laughing stock of the world . he was still a former president. i mean, these aren't the things that these are the things that you see from other countries like venezuela, right? i mean, you don't expect to see the former, this is a first time ever in the history of this country that the president, former president has been indicted. this is unprecedented and the more that we keep this. we'll call it classy, the better it is for our position in the world on that personal note, michael obviously, you know or knew donald trump very well worked with them very closely for many years. what's he doing tonight? behind the scenes? how is he handling something like this tonight? seething. and to the world. he wants to again appeared to have this thick skin. he's not thick skinned. i think we've also saw that during the, uh what was it? the correspondents dinner? he is not fixed skin. he's actually very thin skin and he is a very fragile ego. this is his biggest fear that he will be mug

shotted. and that he's going to now. have an f a felony next to his name. these are not things that donald trump ever thought in his entire life. nor i, for that matter that he would ever be confronted with. he's seething right now, because of all of the mistakes that so many people that were around him have made from jared all the way to steve bannon. steve miller. you know this whole clown car of, you know of you know constituents that paraded around him. he's seething because all the all the advice that they gave. now landed him here. and as we all know, donald is not a person who likes to accept accountability. it has to be on somebody else. always unfortunately, he's the one that's going on tuesday, right in order to get fingerprinted and mug shotted. if you want to know how this is going to happen, all you have to do is

look at high profile cases like this, especially steve bannon. the indictment of other high profile individuals for an example of what this is going to be like. process while he's being processed. i noticed with steve bannon while steve bannon was being processed. the district attorney was holding a press conference. then the arraignment happened. and then the judge unsealed what the indictment was about. it was expedited, and that will probably happen with this president as well. brags office will probably not ask the judge to unseal the indictment until the arraignment happens. you should know that because it happened with you. my question is well, i know that they didn't because i never had that. okay. do you feel vindicated? no this isn't an issue of indication. i tried to explain that before i really it's called revenge. yes, but it's is it revenge by him or revenge on me how donald trump weaponized the united states department of justice against his critics, so it's a sort of a play on words. this isn't about vindication. this is about accountability. this is about

the adage that no one is above the law. this is also about that. whatever laws that sent me to prison. supposed to be looked at in the eyes of the law. the same right lady justice wears the blindfold. it's not supposedwhether your former president, not if you break the law, you have to be held accountable. are you worried or nervous about your safety? i don't really think about that. to be honest with you, um, at this point in time. i'm here in new york. we have the greatest, and that's one of the questions that a journalist had asked me today. how i think this is going to play out in terms of, um, similarities to january. 6th if he's gonna call as he did for protests and violence, and that's just donald trump. don't play with new york police department. i mean, we have the finest in the world. but i mean you not just in new york police, not just the violence that could

possibly happen on the street. we hope it doesn't happen. every new york city police officer has to report for duty as you said new york. city police. they don't play law enforcement here. but for your own personal safety look, i worry for my safety every single day. whether it was , you know, during this indictment post the indictment or even pre indictment. so, um, you know, i'm not changing anything in terms of my life with my routine as a result of this. no, michael, have you let yourself imagine what it would be like to testify against donald trump. within their i i'm not concerned about it. i have continuously told the same story . i've been shouting for five years from the rooftop. they lies by the southern district of new york against me for the tax evasion. i actually hope it comes out. i have all the documents to show there was no tax evasion. i've never in my life taxi rate. i've never filed the late tax return. i've never been audited. i've never received. you know, um, you know letters from the i r s i never

had an opportunity going into meet with an agent, and none of this is accurate. so you have been telling the century the same story to us? certainly when we've interested in looking at donald trump in the face, i have no problem with that, because i am standing as truth to power. this is kind of been, if you think about over the five years, it's like a david and goliath sort of scenario, right? it's very biblical. if you think about it, and at the end of the day. yes, i am the smaller guy. i am the david. but somehow or another goliath is on his back. michael thank you very much for your time. we really appreciate talking to you tonight to see you both incredible interview. thank you, michael. alright let's go back to anderson. alison don. thanks very much. next. our legal team weighs in on what you just heard and later to politicians and opposite sides of the aisle. and tonight's news, former new york republican congressman lee zeldin and current california democrat adam schiff. when you're the leader in disaster,

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psychological approach to weight loss name is taught me how you think about food has such a huge impact on your relationship with that and make it last. with noon week meet kerri and sheri. they started apparel company for women who ride business took off they needed alone. smart biz loans dot com found the bank which got to be a long with a great rate, without smart days, we probably wouldn't have gotten alone smart business loans .com. we just heard from michael cohen . he's the one who made those payoffs. two adult film star and director stormy daniels. the payoffs that are apparently at the center of manhattan district attorney alvin brags case against the former president. as far as we know, that is there have been more than 30 charges. sources tell cnn with a court date expected on tuesday, which is when we expect the indictment to be unsealed. here's this part of what michael cohen just told. don lemon and alison camerata about the former president's characterization of him. i am a

convicted felon. i am a disbarred lawyer, but i also brought the documents. there's plenty of testimony corroborating testimony to go around and come tuesday. you know that all these witnesses were cooperating your testimony . let's just say i know i was there 22 times, so there's things that i that i know things that i believe corroborate and at the end of the day we have an indictment today. so clearly, that means that the information provided was more than enough for the grand jury to come back with the determination for an indictment talking about convicted felons c on tuesday, pal. that last comment aimed at the former president and his former boss. um i'm back here with laura coates and andrew mccabe on the criminal justice side, with all their latest reporting and insights on the indictments. abby phillip, jamie gangel and gloria borger. alright let us unpack what mr cohen had to say to our our

excellent anchors don and alison there because he seemed to be suggesting that there's a lot more to this case than people know more than people even suspect, he said. first of all, that all of the witnesses were there, corroborating his testimony and vice versa. and some of those witnesses include kellyanne conway. correct hope hicks correct david packer, the former head of the national enquirer. let me just say a big correct i think he was a very important witness. we will see, but i think the most important word that we heard michael cohen say, is documents. these prosecutors youtube will will that they are not depending on michael cohen for their evidence . alvin bragg. he knows what the stakes are with this case and everything we've heard about how tricky it may be. he doesn't want to fail. uh also lanny

davis, michael cohen's lawyer, was on our air earlier today, and he said they sorry the documents speak for themselves. remember what we don't know, meaning what hasn't been made public yet? we've said over and over tonight. there are a lot of things we don't know, but i think the these references to documents are not an accident to this is corroboration because you obviously have michael cohen , who admitted himself today. well i might not be the most reliable witness, but i keep reminding people he did go to jail. so um, so when you talk about corroboration is jamie is talking about, um, we know about the sign check, etcetera. but then there are questions about karen macdougal. the other person with whom trump was apparently involved and the catch and kill that went on at the national enquirer. so you establish some kind of pattern, and maybe there were people at the white house. who knew at some point what was going on

after he was elected as the payments continued. so then you sort of try and bring in people that way. so you know you're not. i mean, these are experienced people. this is a former president of the united states. i don't think they can just rely on michael cohen and we should note kellyanne conway and opec's both worked at the white house, and both also worked on the trump campaign. so why would they be called to testify? you know, i'm not, and i'm not asking because we don't know. but exactly and they would be, i would think in a position to know more about those things. to me what struck out about michael cohen's comments tonight was that there's a question of scope and scale here that we can't answer until we know more and if it goes well beyond what we're talking about here, just this stormy daniels and you know the 100,000 or so that was transfer between the them. i think that that really puts potentially puts this in a

different category, and we just don't have the answers to that. okay let's go to the people. who the lawyers. uh what did you hear? uh huh. in that michael cohen because, you know, he showed a little leg there. he told us a couple of things. what did you hear? and do you agree with our conclusions here that there's probably a lot more going on here than just this one hush money payment, or even that other one to karen macdougal? absolutely and i will say this for michael showing a little bit of leg. he is in a position to do that. because every single time you bring a witness in to ask some questions about a matter you're investigating. you are telegraphing to that witness . what you're interested in you by by nature, other witnesses told that's right. you are but simply by the questions you ask them, they begin to develop an understanding of what you've heard from other people. what you're interested in what other information you've already had access to he was in front of these guys. 22 times, so he probably has a pretty good understanding not only of what he's told them, but where

they're going. what sort of things they're asking for, and what they're interested and just catch and kill. that's a phrase we've heard. and we've all been covering donald trump so long that we know what it means. but just in case people at home don't catch and kill is the idea that somebody is out there selling a story that's going to be nasty about me and i call my friend who runs the national enquirer, and he pays that person for their story. and then he that's catching, and then he kills that he throws it in a safe that is, we heard, michael cohen testified before congress that david pecker, head of the national enquirer. and mr trump had this relationship for a long time before michael cohen showed up. is there a crime there necessarily mean you have the right as a journalist to obtain exclusive rights and then use your discretion about how you want to publish it. or if at all, it's something more nefarious. it's a different story here. but when i was watching michael cohen, i was looking at it as a prosecutor thinking to myself. i've got to overcome the very obvious point. this man's got an ax to grind.

you obviously cannot stand. donald trump look at the camera and told him to, you know, almost the equivalent buckle up pallets coming for you wanting him to enjoy whatever comes on tuesday, but you know what? i actually never met mother teresa . i never had her as a witness in any of my cases and the people who did see things. guess who. my witnesses were seedy characters. so the idea of someone might not being you know , top shelf on the up and up was not fatally undermining the cases and frankly, what can actually rehabilitate hate someone who does not have a whole lot of credibility is consistency, the other c words over time he had told the same story multiple times to different people, and it's not as far as we know, ever shed any of the truth. it's also a remarkable dramatic story when you think back over the years of michael cohen's relationship with donald trump. i remember sitting in michael cohen's office and he was idolizing donald trump, donald trump. and

he was you know, this is the man i want to be like he's everything to me. and now it's shakespearean in a way that he tried to live up to some expectation of donald trump. and in the end and that that trump had of him. but in the end, trump didn't bring him to washington. trump never put him on the white house staff, and then he ended up in jail because of what he did for donald trump, as he says, so it's kind of a remarkable arc of a of a dramatic and he's not alone. and i mean alice silberberg is perhaps not in the ideal idealization, but someone who has devoted their entire lives to this man to donald trump. trump wants loyalty from people who work from him more than anything else. he doesn't really give it back, but he wants that , and that's what michael cohen and alan wisenberg did, and both of them. spent spending time in jail as a result, and but they are also key to these cases and

the manhattan d a is using these people who spent their lives around trump being nurtured by him, uh, protecting him to make a case against him, and that will be key to find out what they what they've said to him. all right, anderson with me here is they've been throughout the night, ella konig just growth and john miller. at least should michael cohen be on television? talking if he's gonna be testifying. absolutely not. this is the last thing prosecutors want, and it doesn't help that michael cohen's lawyer, lanny davis, is out there doing the same thing. michael cohen is going to be a central witness in this case, every word he says, is fair game for cross examination and one of the points that's going to be made. is that michael cohen has a major, deep, seething hatred for donald trump, and we could see it in that interview. right there. you could list some of the worst words in the world. michael cohen has used them to talk about donald trump. now people say it may say i understand why he feels that way, given what he went through

for donald trump, but still it's going to be open season for the defense lawyer to paint michael cohen as a biased witness with a personal ax to grind, and every one of these media appearances gives the defense more ammunition on that. he also repeated during that interview. his denial that he is guilty of some of the crimes you already pled guilty to, and the southern district of new york at some of the tax fraud crimes in particular, and so it just shocks me that we have somebody who is going to be an important witness for the government, in this case brought by the manhattan district attorney's office who is now saying that he under oath, pled guilty to crimes that he now says he didn't plead guilty to. so that's just on top of the bias. a huge problem karen macdougal aspect. of the story. she was somebody who said she had a relationship with the former president before he was before he was president, and that the national enquirer david pecker, uh, caught and killed her story. um it is unclear whether there

will be charged. um do you think there's gonna be charges related to having a hard time seeing what the charge would be based on the payments to karen macdougal? because those were made by am i? i imagine instead that that would be part of the evidence that the district attorney would have presented to the grand jury and ultimately would present to a jury about the background of this relationship with ami and with michael cohen trump's way of dealing with these stories, but because the payment was made by ami, and as far as we know, wasn't reimbursed by trump or his organization or by michael cohen. i'm not sure how it in and of itself becomes a charge and i think the relevance of it will be to show donald trump's knowledge knowledge of what was happening. his knowledge that this was a pattern happened, at least twice was stormy daniels and karen macdougal and they have to tie donald trump. to not just those payments, but to the way they were booked. i can't stress that enough. it's not about the donald trump know the hush money was paid it did he know that the records the internal records were falsified . that is the crux of the

question. and perhaps the macdougal facts can help with this is where this is where the case ran into trouble, at least as far as we're told from people who are watching it in the grand jury, which is when robert costello, a former law partner of rudy giuliani, who was appointed to be michael collins , lawyer when he was under investigation by the feds for hush money payments came in and testified, he said, you know, michael cohen told me he was handling this that he got a home equity loan $130,000, but that's where the money came from that he said all this up meaning what? costello's point to the grand jury was, and a lot of this has been now said by castello, which is how we know it. is that michael cohen was the driver of this plot and that he was handling it for donald trump it it's meant to remove culpability from trump as he's being presented by prosecutors as the one who is pulling the levers in directing all of this. yes and, and apparently, pecker has information about

communications directly with trump about these payments for the purposes of influencing the election, according sense that pecker was brought in after not at all, it was damage control and it's worth reiterating that am i, which pecker worked for. at the time, i entered into a nonprosecution agreement with federal prosecutors when they were investigating michael cohen for these payments as david pecker is cooperating, which is why he's cooperating and we gather he was granted immunity by federal prosecutors personally, but in that nonprosecution agreement am i admitted that these were violations of the campaign finance laws and that they made to influence the election. that was the karen macdougal payment, but they were all part of this. same scheme. so am i. david becker has said that this was for campaign. this was campaign believe why he was brought back and one of the key pieces of information that we don't know about, but i'm going to be looking for is there some evidence some reliable witness beyond michael cohen, who can say donald trump knew about how we were accounting for these payments? could we don't know,

but we heard the list of witnesses who went into the grand jury weather. kellyanne conway, hope hicks, david pecker if one of them can corroborate bolster michael cohen's testimony and say, not only, of course, donald trump knew about the hush money payments. but he was involved in the way that those payments were logged on the internal trump organization records. that is a difference maker. elie honig, jessica roth , john miller. thank you coming up former republican congressman who spent years defending former president and democratic congressman who spent years investigating him their reactions next. good morning, everyone so glad you could join us. joining us now are two lawmakers from different sides of the aisle. people are hyper focused on two issues, inflation and crime. violent crime is up, governor. you can't deny that. i understand that. but let's talk about real answers, even when you disagree with people. if you stand for something, they have great appreciation for that. every reporter in washington wants to know. are you going to extend the debt ceiling? that's

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space with joy bird plus get free design services at joy bird .com cnn presents a max original heaven's gate sunday at 10 on cnn. again our breaking news sources telling cnn that former president donald trump is expected to appear in a manhattan courtroom next tuesday for his arraignment on more than 30 charges related to business fraud. this was the scene earlier outside donald trump's residence at mar-a-lago and florida supporters of the former president after news of the indictment came out earlier. we heard from former vice president pence. speaking with my colleague, wolf blitzer. he called the indictment and outrage republicans tonight criticizing the case and the

manhattan d a. behind it. i'm joined now by former republican congressman lee zeldin of new york, who has long defended donald trump. congressman zeldin . good to see you. thanks so much for joining us. let's start off. what's your reaction to this unprecedented indictment? well so far, we only know what's been reported. based on this information. i believe that this is a political prosecution and in my life, like many of us, we have people who are on the right who maybe are center right center left or further to the left, and i think, what's most informative some of my conversations with people who are center right center left. they are also commenting, even people who might not even like president trump that they feel like this is a political prosecution. what we'll see what the indictment says to that point, you tweeted tonight, quote. if alvin brags. that's a the manhattan district attorney if alvin brags newly secured indictment of president trump looks like a political prosecution sounds like a political prosecution and reeks

like a political prosecution. and that's exactly what this is and precisely how most of america will view it, unquote, but but obviously we need to see the full indictment before we have the facts of this right. yeah, we can only comment based off of what we know what's been reported. and you know, it's interesting. you had a great interview just now with michael cohen, which ends up peeling a layer back because what's being reported is that he is a star witness. in that case, so some of the confirmation that he provides to what his conversations are with the d. a. s office confirms that reporting that you've been discussing on air. yeah i mean, i think what's key is the documentation that michael cohen alleges that he that he brought forward let me just let me just ask you just to get some sort of assembling. so of what your take is on this crime. donald trump says that he had no relationship with either stormy daniels or karen macdougal, both of whom who have

come forward stormy daniels under oath and said that they did have relationships with donald trump that both of these relationships apparently at you know relevant to this case, do you? do you believe him when he says he never had a relationship with either of those women? well, i don't i don't know the nature of his relationship with with either of the two women. so it's hard for me to comment about what exactly what kind of relationship they might have had. i just i just don't know. i mean, we are talking about something that allegedly happened many many, many years ago. this happens to be a case that has not been prosecuted to this level. until right now i saw a tweet from from from nancy pelosi a couple hours ago where it talks about how donald trump has the right to prove his innocence. and that's not how this works. there is a presumption of innocence and what happens inside of a grand jury room. that isn't a

situation where the defense is able to put on their case to cross examine witnesses, and the burden of proof is a lot less and you're making a decision based off of the guidance that you're getting of what the law is and what the theory is. of the prosecution, so there will be apparently a day in court to calm and what we'll see what was interesting when alison and don lemon were questioning michael cohen just now about the one recorded conversation as they pointed out. donald trump in the recording says, are you going to pay in cash? and it's michael cohen responding about how there's you know this other way to make a payment as far as what the additional background is on that recording, we don't know, but that's that's an interesting point being the only the only recorded conversation and using that as an example it was that brought up inside of the grand jury was the person who was talking about it being questioned. cross examined.

because i think michael cohen, in many respects was having a hard time with the cross examination of don lemon. alison camaraderie tonight. you know what happens when it's the defense defenses attorney putting on their case if he is their star witness? yeah well, let me ask you because because one of the things michael cohen said, is that he went to prison in part because of this payment. two stormy daniels to keep her quiet $130,000 and it was definitely done after the access hollywood tape came out in. i believe that was august 2016. after that tape came out, uh, and it was done to influence the election to keep that story of from going public. um and he basically said, if i had to go to prison in part for that, why should donald trump not? he's the one that directed me to do it. that's what the indictment said. donald trump is, you know there's no it were a country of

laws, not men. nobody is above the law. well first off if i was michael cohen's attorney, or if i was michael cohen himself, you know, maybe there's a different decision as opposed to pleading guilty and going to prison if you feel like you're being wrongfully accused, while then you fight that charge and you have your day in court. i don't know what else was. you know? i don't know what we don't know about the michael cohen case, but what we know is that he pled guilty to those charges, and he went to prison for that. donald trump. president trump is deciding that he is going to fight these charges and he'll have his day in court and have the prosecution will have to prove their case. i think one of the other flaws in this situation is that with alvin bragg, he he's not someone who is a consistent law and order guy who is enforcing laws across the board. as a matter of fact, what he's received. a lot of criticism for is that his first

day that he was in office, he put out a memo that said all these different laws across the board. prosecutors are not allowed to prosecute and all of these other offenses you have to charge. his lesser included offenses. so when that decision is made to not really do your job on all these other crimes that a lot of people believe are far more serious subjectively. then that causes an issue when that that center right or center left american. i'm not the person who absolutely loves donald trump are absolutely hates them or their hardcore republican or hardcore democrats, the middle of america. uh i do believe that a lot of them are going to see that this is in fact, a political prosecution and i also think that they're going to see that this prosecutor is somebody who before he even took the oath said that he was going to be making this case a high priority personally, while he was just not going to prosecute at all. all these other crimes that are far more serious, too many new yorkers. alright former

congressman, at least elden, republican of new york. good to see you again. thank you so much. anderson. jake thanks very much for reaction from democrats want to bring in someone who led the first impeachment of former president of the house and also participate in the roughly 18 month long investigation by the house select committee into the january 6th riot, california congressman adam schiff, congressman schiff appreciate you joining us first of all, just to what former congressman zeldin was saying the criticism about the district attorney in new york he brought these these charges. alvin alvin bragg. what do you say to that argument? because we're hearing it from a lot of republican members of congress right now that this is a district prosecutor who said he wouldn't prosecute a number of, uh what people say are serious crimes and yet is going after what they say is less serious campaign finance crime. well, i think that argument is really beside the point. the key issue is donald trump being treated the same as other people similarly situated that is other people that have committed business crimes. is he getting

the same treatment and there's no reason to think that he isn't and that ought to be the standard. the rule of law should apply equally to everyone. whether alvin bragg is handling other aspects of his job the way some new yorkers would want or don't want is a completely separate issue. there's a lot more at stake here than the fate of donald trump. this is, i think, an affirmation of the principle that no one is above the law that the law should apply equally, and you followed the evidence where it leads. the manhattan grand jury believes it led to donald trump, and it led to criminal activity. if that's the case in the manhattan d a believes they can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. he should be prosecuted like anyone else do you have concerns about ? i mean, there's a lot we don't know. obviously we don't know what the you know this indictment is hell. we don't know what all the accounts of it are. we have some sort of broad sense. perhaps but are you concerned that this may not be the strongest case? well i'm concerned frankly, that the case that is the most significant

that is the federal case involving donald trump's effort to overturn the election is incitement of the violence on january 6th all of things that we referred to the justice department. the department has taken far too long to investigate and potentially prosecute those cases really should have gone first. in a system in which you try the most serious cases for which of the strongest evidence first, but we're in a federal system. the states operate on their own timetable, as do local prosecutors and the justice department only has itself. to blame for its slow pace. when these events took place more than two years ago, and it should have brought i believe more urgency to the task. your republican colleagues in the houseman as i said, critical of the da's investigation, speaker , mccarthy said tonight quote the house of representatives will hold alvin bragg and his unprecedented abuse of power to account. what do you interpret that to me? well i think we're

seeing the same thing we saw out frankly, during the ukraine investigation when your last guest liza donald trump's criminal defense counsel. that's what kevin mccarthy is now doing . that's what jim jordan is doing. they're threatening to interfere with the manhattan d a to subpoena the d a or other prosecutors past and present to try to subpoena documents from the district attorney's office basically to try to get discovery that you know donald trump's criminal defense lawyers. that's what they're hired to do not members of congress. but that's i think what he has in mind, it's what the you know. in a different form. the governor in florida has in mind that is to try to turn this to their political benefit. were you surprised that that this happened today that this happened at all? you know, i was surprised that happened today only because i've been following the press as you have

, and it appeared that the grand jury was going to go into recess for a while. i have to say i'm impressed that the grand jury kept this as quiet in a secret for as long as they did when obviously this is among the most significant legal actions going on at the moment, but but i'm not surprised that at the end of the day if justice required a person who was directed in a campaign fraud scheme to go to jail, that the guy who did the directing should also be held to account that's the way it should be. adam schiff. i appreciate your time tonight. thank you. thank you hand things over. take a look. live pictures palm beach international airport on the left. trump tower midtown manhattan. in many ways, they are the touchstone to the former president. trump tower. we made his big splash in new york first when he built it then when he launched a presidential campaign from it in the airport in the town where he returned after losing the election, he tried to overturn where he will likely

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