has anyone done that before, voluntarily? in 2009, with his full approval, the program ceased being the news hour with jim lehrer and became the pbs "news hour." >> and he'll still be hosting a panel on the "news hour" most fridays. at 76, jim lehrer is not quite ready to hang it up. m join us again next sunday morning 11:00 a.m. eastern for another critical look at the media. "state of the union" with candy crowley begins right now. some way, somehow, soon, congress needs to raise the debt limit so the federal government can borrow more money to pay the bills and if not -- >> we don't know exactly what would happen if the debt limit was not approved. >> nothing good would happen, that much everyone suspects. speaker john boehner says his house republicans will okay an increase for a price. >> without significant spending cuts and changes in the way we spend the american people's

money, there will be no increase in the debt limit. >> boehner wants $2 trillion in budget cuts before he agrees to raising the debt ceiling. and then there's the democrat-controlled senate. >> we shouldn't be drawing lines in the sand. we should be willing to work together. >> treasury secretary tim geithner says the u.s. could hit its $14.3 trillion debt limit tomorrow but he can keep the country out of default until august. so there is time. what they really lack on capitol hill is common ground. today -- republican risk, reward and rhetoric with senate republican leader mitch mcconnell and paul ryan, chairman of the house budget committee. then presidential politics as the field expands with clinton, press secretary joe lockhart and bush speech writer michael gerson. and challenges in the mideast and libya with dennis blair and john negroponte. i'm candy crowley and this is

"state of the union." despite fears a debt crisis will undermine the u.s. economic recovery and rattle the world, just 19% of americans told gallup pollsters they want congress to raise the debt ceiling. 47% no and 34% said they didn't know enough to say. joining me now, minority leader senator mitch mcconnell, thank you for being here. >> good morning. >> let me ask you just as a first question out of the box what would happen if the debt ceiling is not raised? >> well, i think we ought to look at this as an opportunity. an opportunity to bring a democratic president who's been leading a spending binge over the last couple of years and a new, much more republican congress which believes the american people want us to reduce spending significantly. bring those two together and get something done important on a bipartisan basis. you know, it is interesting that some of our biggest accomplishments in the last quarter of a century have been when you have divided government.

think of ronald reagan and tip o'neill working together to save social security for another generation in 1983. think of bill clinton and the republican congress balancing the budgets and passing welfare reform. this is actually a great opportunity to address this burgeoning problem. we have a $14 trillion debt. it is as big as our economy which makes us look a lot like greece. and over and above that, we have $50 trillion in unfunded liabilities. that is promises we've made, very popular programs, medicare, social security, medicaid, that we can't meet. so rather than thinking of this as a crisis, i think of it as an opportunity to come together and those talks are under way led by the vice president. >> so then let me see where the coming together is. on the house side we've heard speaker boehner say that there has to be $2 trillion worth of cuts and that the amount of cuts has to at least equal the amount that the debt ceiling is raised. is that where you stand? is that a bottom line for you? >> well, let me just tell what

you it would take to get my vote. we need to do something about the short term. we need to get a spending ceiling for the next two years because we're not likely to get a final budget out of a democratic senate and a republican house. we need to know how much we're going to spend the next two years, and that needs to be on a declining basis. then we need to do something mid-term, that is, within what we call the budget window, within the next few years, both on the discretionary side and the mandatory side. and the mandatory side means entitlements. and we also need to do something long term. i just mentioned we have over $50 trillion in unfunded liabilities. the president doesn't seem to want to do social security without a tax increase, which is clearly not needed. and we just heard from the trustees friday that both medicare and social security are in serious trouble and it's worse than anybody thought. maybe the president's open to doing something on the medicare side. but to get my vote, candy -- i can only speak for myself -- we need to do something significant, short-term,

medium-term and long-term -- >> all before you raise the debt ceiling? >> oh, yeah, absolutely. >> short and medium and long need to be done before you go for an increase in the debt ceiling. >> absolutely. standard & poor's is in the process of downgrading the u.s. credit rating. that's ooh a serious problem. we need to impress could foreign countries that we'll get our act together and astonish the american people that the adults are in charge in washington and are actually going to deal with this issue. >> let me see if i understand you. $2 trillion is not necessarily where you would go. you would leave that amount open while the biden commission with republicans and democrats on it figure out the short, medium and long term. is that correct? $2 trillion you don't stick with. >> yeah. what i'm not going to do is negotiate the deal with you here this morning. >> oh, come on. >> i'd like to, i know, but i just can't. what i'm trying to do is give you a sense of what i think

would be significant, would be a clear indication that we're going to go in an entirely different direction. and i think if you do something significant both short term, medium term and long term, everybody will understand the americans are going to get their act together and we're not going to end up being a western european country. >> you'll know significant when you see it, i take it. >> i think standard & poor's will be a good indicator of if they are impressed with what we've done, then that will mean the markets think the americans will get their act together. foreign countries, many of whom have been lending us an enormous amount of money, would get the message that the americans are going to get their act together. we need to -- that's my definition of significant. >> and i think i can get a "yes" or "no" from you on this. no tax increases will you accept at all in either the short, the medium or the long term, and

that includes closing tax loopholes? >> well, there aren't going to be any tax increases. that was settled by last year's election. the president knows that. we are not going to raise taxes in connection with this problem. look, we don't have this problem because we tax too little. we have it because we spend too much. >> how about closing loopholes like the tax -- for instance, for the oil companies. >> the problem with doing tax reform right now is it is very, very complicated. the senate democrats, you're right, do want to raise taxes on what they call the big five oil companies which will raise the gas at the pumps, send jobs overseas and make us get even more oil from hugo chavez. that's just a political stunt that mary landrieu, the democratic senator from louisiana, called laughable. that's not the kind of thing we're going to be dealing here in connection with the serious talks going on with the vice

president's group. >> let me turn you to foreign policy for a quick question. do you think that president obama ought to call on syrian president al assad to step down as he did for president mubarak in egypt? >> we certainly know that the assad regime, just like his father's regime, is a thuggish regime that murders their own people. the president i think correctly is trying to put the squeeze on them in every way possible. calling for resignation? i don't know whether that's called for at the moment or not but this regime has turned out to be exactly what we thought and there were some people in our own administration who thought that bashar al assad was going to be a reformer. i don't think there is any evidence of that. this is a thug regime. i think the only thing that comes out of it is we're not likely to make any progress in the middle east right now. i know senator mitchell decided two years was enough because it looks to me like we're kind of

reached another stalemate in the palestinian talks with israel. we're not sure what comes next in egypt. i think this is a period of great unrest in the middle east and probably not a time when we're going to make serious progress in any of these countries. >> let me turn you to politics. mitt romney often called the front-runner in the republican race for the presidential nominee, gave a big speech on thursday, he talk about how his health care plan in massachusetts, which required mandates -- which had mandates for people that they must have health insurance, was different from the president's, which republicans are so critical about. was it enough to satisfy you? would you have any qualms if mitt romney were the presidential nominee for the republican party? >> well, look. i'm not going to start dabbling around or endorsing or criticizing one candidate or another running for president on the republican side. but let me say this about obamacare. it was the single worst piece of legislation that's been passed

in my time in the senate. >> what about the massachusetts plan? >> the biggest step in the wrong direction for america. i think it needs to be repealed and replaced. we've had that vote earlier this year. i would hope whoever gets elected president, if it's not the current president, would join with us and repealing it totally. >> and finally, this has often been described and often is at this time as a weak republican field. is there someone that is not being discussed that you would like to see get into this race for republican nominee? >> well, on the weak field comment, i'm reminded of how the carter administration was pulling for ronald reagan to be the republican nominee because they thought he would be the easiest to beat. look, one of these candidates who wants the nomination and who is going to work very hard for it and run through this gauntlet is going to look a lot better than any of these people look right now. so i assure you, we're going to have a very credible, electable republican nominee.

i just don't know who that is. >> me neither, senator mitch mcconnell. thank you so much for your time today. >> thank you. when we come back, influential republican congressman paul ryan and his plan to reform medicare. [ woman speaking chinese ] thank you.

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for 12 hour protection. for long lasting protection try cortaid. april 5th, house budget committee chairman paul ryan introduced his budget proposal for fiscal year 2012. >> this is the path to prosperity. >> a path followed by key senate colleagues like budget committee ranking member jeff sessions. >> we're going to stand up to those who are going to attack you for having the courage to tell the truth about the challenges we face. >> but when congress went home for easter recess, angry constituents at town hall meetings grabbed the headlines. the uproar was almost entirely centered around the medicare revamp in ryan's budget which by 2022 replaces medicare with subsidized payments to seniors who would buy their own health insurance. the idea is a no-go in the polls and some of ryan's senate colleagues are queasy.

senators lamar alexander and rob portman say they are open to alternatives, maine senator susan collins delivered the harshest blow. >> i don't happen to support congressman ryan's plan. >> paul ryan on the future of his proposal next. prescription strength relief-t from my worst allergy symptoms. so lily and i are back on the road again. with zyrtec® i can love the air®. you know, the ones find are a who do a super job?n. superpages.com®. for local maps, reviews and videos & it's the only local search site with the superguarantee®. so next time, let the good guys save the day. get the superguarantee®, only at superpages®. in the book, on your phone or at superpages.com®.

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joining me now, republican congressman paul ryan, chairman of the house budget committee. congressman, thanks for joining us. let me talk to you about -- i think that you heard senator mcconnell say that he was waiting to see what was going to come out of the commission that biden is heading with republicans and democrats on it. as far as you are concerned, must whatever plan comes out of this commission include medicare reform before you would vote for an increase in the debt ceiling? >> well, i think it should because medicare's in the future of the -- >> must it? >> i -- like mitch mcconnell, i

don't think it is in our interest to be negotiating to the media. no offense candy, but i think we should be -- not doing that. >> you are no fun. but okay. >> no, i know. i know. let's get this straight though -- we need to address the drivers of our debt. the reason we are running into this debt limit so soon is because of the spending spree that's occurred over the last two years. we need short, medium and long-term fiscal reforms to get this under control and prevent a debt crisis from hitting us. like john boehner said, for every dollar the president wants to raise the debt limit we are saying cut at least a dollar's worth of spending because that is the necessary thing to do to stave off a debt crisis. if we get a debt crisis, candy, then we have another recession or worse and that's what we want to avoid. >> so senator mcconnell also indicated that he didn't want to talk about a $2 trillion figure which is what the speaker sort of put out there saying there's got to be, before i will bring along republicans on the house side, has to be $2 trillion in cuts, which i took to mean in addition to whatever you are

raising the debt ceiling by. do you believe the $2 trillion figure is where you start and you won't go below that? >> look, we offered over $6 trillion in cuts over the next ten years with our budget. what we've brought to the table is our budget, which has those spending cuts, those spending reforms. we have yet to see a concrete proposal offered by either the president or the senate democrats. so we're the ones who put out all the specifics and details. we have yet to see counteroffers from the other side. the reason the $2 trillion figure is floating around because that's what the president has asked the congress to raise the debt limit by. when we say we want at least as much spending cuts for the debt limit and he throws out the $2 trillion number, that is where you're getting that $2 trillion number. if he says let's do $1 trillion in debt limit increase, we want at least over $1 trillion in spending cuts. that's why you'll hear that $2 trillion number. >> i want to get factually two things clear. you would agree that the bush administration added greatly to

this deficit and this debt that you are now looking at. >> yes. yes. i would. both parties messed this up. this is not a republican created problem or a democrat created problem. it is both parties and we've got to face up to that if we're going to get this situation under control. >> and the president does have some ideas out there. you're not the only one with specific ideas. he's put them all out there, you all just don't like them. >> well, yes, but remember his budget does nothing close to closing the fiscal gap. he gave a speech which said do more medicare rationing. we asked the congressional budget office to give us an analysis of this framework. they basically said they can't score speeches. so we still have yet to see from the administration a plan that actually fixes or physical problem and of course, as you know, we've seen nothing from the senate so far. >> right. others i just want to add here, certainly check facts, have said that your plan also falls short in the deficit reduction but rather than get into a numbers game with you, i want to step back and look at this a little politically.

that is, i want you to sell me this politically. because as you know, some of your members went home and took a beating on medicare. the idea that medicare, as we know it, would be replaced by a subsidy system that would be capped for those as you get wealthier. a lot of people said don't change medicare, we see this in the polls. so you have that, that the republicans are -- at least your plan and many republicans backing it, is out there. then you have republicans refusing to say, yes, we ought to cut the subsidies we give to the multi-multi billion dollar oil industry. sell that to me politically. how is that a shared sacrifice? >> first, i would say our town hall meetings went phenomenally well. mine in particular. second of all, medicare is going broke. the trustees reminded us of this last week. it is not a question of if medicare is going to change. it clearly is because it is going broke. the question is how will we reform it.

>> politically, don't you think it's a problem for you all to be backing the tax breaks that oil companies are getting while requiring seniors or asking that seniors pay more and have a different medicare system or seniors to come. i realize it won't affect seniors today. >> i would argue that's a non sequitur. the comparison of the two are infinitesimally different. medicare has tens of trillions of dollars of unfunded liabilities. it overwhelms any other thing such as small provisions like that. with respect to oil company tax subsidies, we've all along said let's reform the tax code, let's clear out the brush in the tax shelters for all different businesses so we can lower tax rates on everybody so that we can have a more internationally competitive tax system to get jobs created. with the one provision you are talking about, it is a tax benefit that goes to all manufacturers in america if they make something in america. they're talking about singling out the oil and gas industry and raising their tax rates compared

to every other manufacturer which simply eliminates this tax benefit that goes to every manufacturer and therefore raise the cost of producing american oil and gas and make us more dependent on foreign oil and gas. i don't think that's really a good idea. i just filled up my suburban yesterday. it cost me $100 to fill up with gas and i couldn't even fill the tank because the pump cut off at $100. we've got high gas prices. raising taxes on american made oil and gas doesn't help that, it hurts that. let's go back to the scratch here. we have a country that's going broke. we have a very important entitlement program medicare that millions of seniors depend on. we're saying don't change these benefits to people that are in and near retirement. they've organized their lives around these benefits but we have to reform this program for the next generation if we're going to save it for the next generation and that's what we're proposing to do. >> two quick questions i must ask you. one, i know you are giving a big speech tomorrow in chicago. i don't think it is coincidence it is the president's hometown. heard from a number of democrats who knew you were coming on

going this is a do-over tour that you're on, that you got so blasted for your -- >> anything but. >> it's dang damage control. >> anything but. >> is there anything different in these speeches? >> no. it's basically we believe the president is articulating a vision which i would call shared scarcity. i believe the president's economic vision and the speeches he's been given are speeches in which they pit people against each other, play class warfare, envy economics which is bad economics. i think it is really a vision of shared scarcity in bringing america to a period of managed decline, economic stagnation. we are pushing a vision of renewed prosperity. our budget puts the budget on a path to balance and our economy on a path to prosperity. so anything but. we are pressing ahead because we sincerely believe that our budget repairs the safety social net and repairs our economy. it is the right vision and we believe it is what americans want and we believe that's historically in keeping with

what created our country so we want a system where america is more defined by upward mobility and equal opportunity and economic prosperity. i don't think that's the outcome of the president's vision. it's important to contrast the two approaches. >> congressman, senator cole is retiring. that leaves an open seat. people are wondering whether you will run for the u.s. senate. would you be willing to give up the house budget chairmanship to run for the u.s. senate? >> herb just announced this friday. it was a bit of a surprise to all of us. so my family and supporters just started digesting this. i plan on making an announcement very quickly. i don't want to dwindle on this but we're just beginning to process this information. >> this week maybe we'll hear? >> yes. >> thanks so much. congressman paul ryan, we appreciate your time. >> thank you, candy. up next, the republicans' field of presidential candidates takes shape. do any of them have the right stuff to beat president obama in 2012? power and associates

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two familiar names formally ventured into 2012 this week. former house speaker newt gingrich, an old political hand, declared his well-known presidential ambitions the new millennium way, on facebook and twitter. another no-surprise-here candidate, texas congressman ron paul went official on morning tv. officially not running -- former arkansas governor mike huckabee who made his non-declaration on his fox tv show yesterday. former governor mitt romney hasn't done his 2012 paperwork but he's done years of groundwork preparing for his second presidential bid. he devoted a thursday speech trying to repair potential achilles heel -- similarities between the health care plan he started in massachusetts and president obama's plan. in other 2012 hints, former u.s. ambassador to china and former governor of utah jon huntsman sat down for a big interview with "time" magazine and indiana governor mitch daniels put his

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joining me now, joe lockhart, former white house press secretary for president clinton, and former speech writer and policy writer for george w. bush, michael gerson. the latest that's happening, 2012, which seems to be gearing up a little, which we like. mike huckabee is out. he was largely seen as here's where the social conversation will go. who now has that crowd to attract? >> i was in iowa not too long ago and people were already starting to make their choices, former huckabee supporters. he was really the front-runner in that state. among social conservatives kind of the harder-edge ones that had supported huckabee were interested in michelle bachmann. the softer edge ones were interested in tim pawlenty. who is much more electable in a certain way. so i think the huckabee people will divide among a couple of members of the field but those were the two that people were

talking about. >> do either one of those, if you said now social conservatives, big in iowa, certainly in the early states, do you see anybody there that you think this is the guy we really don't want to run against? >> i kind of put them in two categories and huckabee is a little hard because i actually do have some respect for him. but there are the serious candidates, pawlenty, romney, and then there are the people who have tv shows. huckabee, palin, donald trump. i think anything on the republican side that takes some of the hollywood out and lets the serious candidates get some oxygen is good for republicans and, by definition, slightly bad for democrats. the problem that some of what i'll call the more serious candidates have right now is they have trouble getting oxygen when you have got carnival barkers running around sucking it all up. >> right. but they drive the conversation,

which is why some people actually get into the race. they don't expect they're going to win but they do drive the conversation which i think we've seen donald trump do it, i think michelle bachmann is another example of people who expect to move the party conversation somewhere. you mentioned mitt romney. i want to read something the "wall street journal" wrote. he gave a big speech this week about why romney care in massachusetts is different from obamacare for the nation. and right before he gave it, here's what the "wall street journal" wrote -- the debate over obamacare and the larger entitlement state may be the central question of the 2012 election. on that question, mr. romney is compromised and not credible. if he does not change his message, he might as well try to knock off joe biden and get on the obama ticket." >> tough. >> yeah. "wall street journal"! this is not good news for romney. then after his speech said, no, it didn't really satisfy us. so there's a back-and-forth, as you might imagine between romney and the "wall street journal."

but is he -- he may well be electable but let's start, is he nominatable? >> well, he already has met his quota of flip-flops in the past. he couldn't do it again on the health reform, his reform in massachusetts. and he really believes that the individual mandate is important. but for conservatives in the party, the individual mandate is the red line. i think he's going to have a really tough time with the nomination in that context. it makes him a very fragile front-runner in new hampshire. >> and do you agree? >> sure. the essential problem for republicans is to win a national election, you've got to have someone who's somewhere near the middle, but the elect rat that will nominate a candidate are very conservative and not necessarily in the same place as where a majority can come from.

the democrats had faced problems in the past like that in the '60s and '70s. this is a big fundamental problem for republicans and there's nothing in this race that indicates they'll work through this in a way where they'll nominate someone who can fight for the center. >> couple other things happened this week. one of them is newt gingrich got in. i'm of two minds about whether he's driving a conversation or really could be nominated. when you look at newt gingrich and his past -- because you didn't mention newt gingrich when you talked about where would those social conservatives go. what are his chances? >> i think he'll drive the rest of the field crazy rather than drive the conversation. the one thing he will do -- i mean debates are important when you try to sort through an sift out candidates. he will dominate those debates. he is a force of nature. both intellectually and politically. i think he has no chance of being nominated. i think he's disqualified himself over time but he will drive the rest of them crazy.

>> what makes -- do you agree with that assessment, no chance, or virtually no chance. what makes newt run? >> there are some precedents. you had richard nixon 1968. ronald reagan in 1980. these were politicians who had been out of politics for quite a while. he thinks that he can play this role but he has a lot of baggage. >> not that he's been out of politics. >> there's other baggage. he's gaffe prone which i think is a serious problem. he's creative but not disciplined. these are not a good mix of skills for a presidential campaign where discipline is quite important. message is quite important. he's often off message. >> let me ask you about where the president stands now. we all know we're doing a snapshot in time, things change. is he -- in terms of past presidents running for re-election, strong position? >> you know, i actually think if you look at numbers in composite, there's kind of a remarkable story there. i saw a number this week that said 29% of the country thought the country was going in the right direction.

the bellwether number. gas prices are above $4 a gallon. the bellwether economic number as far as how people feel about their own economic security. and anywhere 50% to 60% of the country approves of the job the president's doing. take a step back from that. >> he was below 50% for a while. that was post osama bin laden. but right now -- >> even right now, even if he was at 48%, numbers like that you normally expect a president's approval to be at 28%, 32%. so i think the country -- politics is often about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. and i think the country is willing to look at the circumstances that the president came in and look at what he's done and say, we're willing to sign up for another four years because he's taking us and doing the right things. i think take these numbers separately, and they could be troubling. put them together and i think it is an interesting story. >> his low point was pretty high. there's no question that he has significant support.

but he had before this bump lost a lot of ground among independents in particular. and he had a tough challenge -- has a tough challenge to motivate his base and appeal to independents which is the way that you win presidential elections. >> his own personal primary. >> exactly. so i think this is still a serious challenge. he needs more than a bump. he needs sustained economic growth and kind of better labor market. otherwise, he's going to have trouble appealing to some of his core constituents, hispanics and others -- >> michael's right, which brings the first part of the conversation back, which is the republicans choose among conservative, more conservative and even more conservative. that's going to help in appealing to independents for the president. he can put that coalition back together. will it be as exciting and historic as the last election? of course it won't. this will be a tough slog for the president and he'll have to earn it. but i do think if you look at the broad picture, it sets up pretty well for him. >> he's floating above some of those numbers, that's for sure. joe lockhart, michael gerson, thanks so much. come back.

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they ran the familiar political gauntlets arguing their perfectness is beside the point. >> i would say nobody's perfect. to brag that i can run things, i don't do that because that's not what a president is supposed to do. a president is supposed to guarantee and work for the protection of liberty and allow people to take care of their problems. >> i clearly have done things that were wrong. i've clearly had to seek god's forgiveness. i believe people have to decide

whether or not what i've said and what i've done is real. and i think that if people watch me and talk with me and get to know me, my hope is that the majority of americans will decide that i can help this country get back on track in a way that no one else can. >> still no sign to raise the debt ceiling. republicans said they're ready to roll in exchange for substantial budget cuts. they will up the debt limit, but the speaker of the house said it's the president who's not serious. >> i'm ready to cut the deal today. we don't have to wait until the 11th hour. but i am not going to walk away from this moment. we have -- we have a moment, a window of opportunity to act, because if we don't act, the market's going to act for us. our creditors are going to act for us. and we could see exorbitant interest rates. we could see the end of our economy. if we don't act. >> the u.s. may blow through its

congressionally mandated debt limit tomorrow. treasury secretary geithner has told lawmakers he can keep the country from defaulting until august. that's today's "sound of sunday." two months into a vicious and deadly government crackdown against protesters in syria, a bipartisan group of 16 u.s. senators signed a joint resolution urging president obama to up the pressure on syria's leadership with stronger sanctions. >> bashar al assad should no longer be treated as the legitimate ruler of syria. like his father before him, is he a criminal. >> and it is time for the president of the united states to speak up forcefully. >> it is strategic and moral nonsense to say that we should hold back from supporting the syrian people against assad. >> though still not as aggressive as senators want, thursday secretary of state hillary clinton did seem to pump up the volume saying "the recent events in syria make clear that the country cannot return to the way it was before. we will continue to work with

our international partners in the eu and elsewhere on additional steps to hold syria responsible for its gross human rights abuses." president obama is expected to address the violence in syria during a foreign policy speech next week. we will talk about the president's next moves with two former directors of national intelligence next. it's the only listerine® that gets teeth two shades whiter and makes tooth enamel two times stronger. get dual-action listerine® whitening rinse. building whiter, stronger teeth.

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week coming up in foreign policy. tuesday he meets with king abdullah of jordan. thursday he will give a speech on u.s. policy in the middle east and north africa. friday he meets with prime minister benjamin netanyahu. joining me now -- two former directors of national intelligence, ambassador john negroponte and retired admiral dennis blair. gentlemen, thank you. let's talk about this foreign policy speech. i think the one thing i heard from people trying to piece the middle east and northern africa together is why do we have one policy in libya and different in egypt and now it is totally

different in syria? as you step back and look at what is evolving over the course of the u.s. actions responding to all these things, what do you think u.s. policy in the middle east is? >> well, i think there are four big elements the president addresses. underlie thing is our independence on middle east oil and we need to understand that that's what such is so close to the volatile and difficult area of the world. number two is that i think it brings us the opportunity to get on the right side of history the things we believe in. it is not just about israel. it is about freedom and democracy and i think that sentiment is very powerful place and we should be strongly in favor of that. number three, we still have this al qaeda fringe that tries to kill americans and despite the death of osama bin laden that's something we have to deal with. number four, although it is not the end of the road, the middle east peace process is an essential part of what we have to do.

that stalled and as senator mitchell's resignation showed us, that chapter is closed. those four elements have to all be there at the strategic level. >> we heard -- i don't know if you heard senator mcconnell saying at the opening of the show middle east peace process at this point just seems to be dead for a while. >> well -- i don't think we -- first of all, should never give up hope. and i -- in that fourth element, i would add to what the admiral said by saying that, you know, support for the state of israel. which is a critical element of this multifaceted policy. we have in the middle east. in order for israel to be viable over the long term, we do have to reach some kind of middle east peace settlement. we can never completely take it off the table. >> one of the things that -- when i -- i was talking to one of the president's top advisors last week, he said, listen, here are -- here's the difference between libya and syria, for instance.

or egypt and syria. and that is, one, militarily libya seemed doable. number two, there was an international consensus. number three, it could be justified by international law. is that the basis you think under which we are in libya? is the fact we are not in syria because it is too darned complicated? >> there is the issue of bandwidth. how many of the different situations can you handle at the same time? overlaying that, i think we do have a general policy of support for democracy in the middle east and support for democracy around the world. i think even though the president hasn't stood up there and said assad must go, i think we deeply hope -- and fervently -- support the notion that the syrian people also deserve democratic government. sooner or later i'm sure that will come to pass. >> sure. when it came to egypt, we did -- i mean, to libya, we went with nato forces to protect citizens but we all know what that's about.

about getting rid of gadhafi by pressure at the very least. number two, in egypt, we said -- gadhafi -- i'm sorry, we said mubarak has to go. >> right. it is complicated. but -- i think that -- what the ambassador said is exactly right. that -- there are different circumstances and different -- different countries. but underlying it all i think is a tremendous force of the arab spring that these repressive regimes will not last their -- they are bottling up forces which will eventually push them out. i think that what the united states does is to encourage that in generally and then we support specifically where we can. now, libya was in a civil war. so -- it was a different situation from syria now from other countries. i think we should take heart things are moving in the right direction and should support the direction and move when it can make a difference in help. >> the rationale for the u.n.

resolution was we have to go in there and protect the these citizens from being slaughtered by their own leader and -- i am asking this because i people don't get it. i think there is a nuance here that somehow we are missing in that you have syrian -- they are clearly slaughtering their own citizens who are peacefully demonstrating for a change in regime or change in how things work. and we have seemed so reticent to do it. what i'm trying to get at, why do we seem so reticent to push syria harder? >> part of it goes to the issue of we have different levels of influence in different places in north africa and middle east. egypt, you cited that example, at the outset, a country where we had substantial influence because of years of engagement with that country and very, very strong ties with the egyptian military. i think our relationship with egyptian military was a critical factor in our ability to ease mr. mubarak out as quickly as we

did. i don't think that means that we any less wish democracy for syria, but we have fewer cards to play, and i think we need to go about it carefully and if the president were to tomorrow walk out in the press room and say mr. al assad has to go and that will beg the obvious next question is, well, what's the united states going to do about that? >> right. which was the question in libya with gadhafi. they started to say, he has to go, he has to go. what's then the next move in syria? are we doing enough? should we do more? is this a matter of escalating rhetoric? >> i think we have to remember these are movies, not still pictures. i think the syrian movie is going to end up in the same place as the libyan movie eventually, this repressive dictator that shoots his own people is going -- is going to go. there are a number of key things that have to fall into place. primary drive has to be from the libyan people themselves.

in case of egypt, the libyan people who opposed mubarak and convinced the security forces they were right and mubarak was wrong, that hasn't happened yet. in syria, security forces are still hanging beside their leader. that has to move. then there's -- practical difficulties that ambassador negroponte talked about in terms of the influence that the united states and the international community bring to bear. this one is going to go the right direction eventually. but the driving dynamic has to come within syria itself. those of us on the outside can share where it is going and help when it really makes a difference. >> and from the rest of the international community and the libya case, i think, is instructive in that regard because you will recall that president obama stipulated there needed to be more multilateral and european engagement in that situation. ditto with respect to syria. the region has to step up. the arab country -- arab league and so forth and the

international community. >> let me ask you just to turn you to pakistan in our final moments here. we now see the pakistani parliament saying okay, this was -- if this happens again, this sort of breach into our sovereign territory, there will be consequences. you expect that sort of thing. but from what you know, how broken, if at all, is the u.s./pakistani relationship over the navy s.e.a.l. incursion in to -- eventually to kill osama bin laden? >> i think it is very strained. you see overt evidence of that with denunciations coming from the leadership of their military and of their intelligence community. i think we are going to have to -- we have a great challenge ahead of us in order to repair that damage. i think we have to work hard at that and i think we have to also work harder at trying to encourage greater civilian military cooperation inside of