a close ally of the late russian opposition leader alexei navalny tells the bbc he'll never give up fighting putin, months after a brutal hammer attack outside his home in lithuania, where he lives in exile. thousands of people who were having to boil their water in devon due to a parasite outbreak are being told they no longer have to. traces of cryptosporidium were identified on wednesday. now on bbc news, political thinking with nick robinson. hello, and welcome to political thinking. stop talking to the media. stop tweeting. meet in private.

take the time you need to build trust. that, any peace negotiator will tell you, is the way to find a solution. this week on political thinking, my guest, the health secretary for england, victoria atkins, suggests it could be the way to find peace in the nhs, to end the strikes that have dogged the health service for more than a year. it's been a big week for her, when talks are starting once again with thejunior doctors and after a new report highlighted the horrorfor some mothers and soon—to—be mothers of nhs maternity services, something she has some rather powerful experience of. victoria atkins, welcome to political thinking. thank you so much, pleasure to be here. you've said when talking about women's health, you've said when talking about this searing indictment that we saw this week of maternity and childbirth services,

this is personalfor you. why so? well, i'm a mum as well as the secretary of state for health. and i had my baby on the nhs, and i have a long history with the nhs. and i've been very open about it. i was diagnosed with type one diabetes at the age of three and i have seen some brilliant parts of the nhs, but i've also seen some of its darker corners. and so the nhs is genuinely one of the reasons i came into politics, because i want to help the brightest lights to flourish, but also to help those people who are not getting the services that they should do. and this is particularly the case in women's health and indeed in maternity services, as we've seen this week. so that's one of the dark corners, is it? yeah, it is. now for people who don't know about type one diabetes, they may not realise that giving birth is itself a dangerous thing. it is a serious thing. it's much more complicated than women living without type one. and i had amazing care.

i mean, i really can't fault it. but also it tended to... there was a moment in the pregnancy where both i and the baby were at risk and we were rushed in. and our... rushed in early? yes, early. yeah, very much so. and i was put on a ward — and, again, this is nobody�*s fault — but i was put on a ward where mums had just had their babies and they'd had very, very traumatic experiences. and you can imagine, being heavily pregnant and this being my first baby, and being on a ward and seeing other mums in great deal of distress, it was quite frightening, actually. and, you know, that was 12 years ago. i know that the hospital concerned has rejigged things and, you know, there are better services

and facilities available. but it's why, for me, this is personal. and my experience, by the way, was nothing compared to the experiences we've seen in this report. but i want every woman to feel safe and happy as she goes in to give birth. of course i do. a lot of the conversation about this, about women's health generally, indeed about healthcare, has been about voice, hasn't it? yeah. the ability of people to speak up. now, you're an articulate person as we're going to discuss. you're the daughter of an mp as well as an mp yourself. did you feel able to use your voice to say, "well, hold on, this isn't this isn't good enough"? or as a patient facing a crisis like that, did you not feel able to do it? i think we have to recognise when somebody is in pain or in distress, if they're frightened, then they are not going to be necessarily able to articulate their concerns. you know, they're going to be worried about what is happening to them in that moment, what's happening to their baby. and this is why we have to both

ensure that the culture, notjust in maternity services but throughout hospitals, is one of transparency and non—defensive transparency. but also ensure that where patients families have concerns, that they feel empowered and they know how to speak up. you've raised a specific point about women's health, though, and it's a striking phrase that the nhs is a system created by men, for men. really? well, 75 years ago, yes. and if we look at the just the geographical position of some maternity units in our older hospital buildings, you look at the facilities, you can see that. and i hear this from midwives, i hear this from other health professionals. it feels sometimes as though historically it has been not the focus, but it's been a sort of it's not had quite the priority that other parts of the hospital has. i mean, i ask you, in what other part of the hospital would a patient

be expected to go through, you know, what can be quite a painful episode, to put it mildly, they would be expected to go through that without pain relief. and i appreciate, of course, there are emergencies and patient choice is absolutely critical in maternity services. but that sort of example is unthinkable in other parts of the hospital. and that's why i really want to listen to women but also make these changes as health secretary. you're talking about changes now. and you hinted when this report came out that there was change coming. "watch this space" you said. what are we watching for, what are we waiting for? well, i want to ensure that when we deliver our policies on this, that they are properly deliverable promises, that mums to be and mothers will recognise and will welcome. so forgive me if i don't go into detail at the moment, but i have said not only

are we building on this birth trauma report, but actually in fairness, nhs england is one year into a three—year improvement plan for maternity services. so, for example, we're rolling out much better mental health support services for women, we're rolling out specialist services to prevent the most serious tears. and also what i call the "are you 0k, mum" check, which is six to eight weeks after mum has given birth. the gp asks mum, they have a specific appointment to ask mum, "are you 0k?" because the focus has historically tended to be on the baby, understandably. but we know we need to look after mum as well. but essentially, without spelling it out now because you haven't formed it yet, you want to be able to say to mums and mums to be, and indeed their partners, "this is what you have a right to expect from the nhs." very much. and thank you also for mentioning partners because in fact, theo, my dearfriend theo, when she was launching this report, made the point that, you know, partners are very much often watching whilst their loved one is going through this very,

very difficult experience. and so they are as affected by it as mum to be or mum is. and so it's really important that we look after, i think, partners as well as mums. now, i mentioned that you're the daughter of an mp, robert atkins, who was a prominent conservative in the era of margaret thatcher, the era ofjohn major, who was a close friend of his. did you grow up thinking, "that's it, i'm going to follow dad?" no, i didn't, actually. obviously growing up in a political family, rather like if you grow up in a family where your parents are doctors or teachers — or, dare i say it, broadcasters — you know, politics is talked about. and i could see from both my father, but also actually my mum, who's a longstanding local councillor, she's done amazing things in her local area. i could see the real force for good

that politics can be, but i didn't want to go into politics. i remember actually when i was having to make decisions about which a—level subjects i was to study, you know, my parents have sat me down and said, "what do you want to do with the rest of your life?" which is, you know, what a question! and i said, "i don't know." and one of them said, "well, you're very good at arguing, so perhaps you should look at the law?" so i then went and spent a few days sitting in the old bailey and watching this magisterial court room, or court centre, with the most serious cases coming beforejudges, seeing howjustice was dispensed. and ijust fell in love with it. so i went to university, read law, trained to become a barrister. so, fast forward to 2009, 2010 and the expenses scandal has exploded. and i'm at that stage of my career where i'm having to make decisions. do i start to apply for silk?

you know, where is my career developing? and david cameron opened up the candidates list for the conservative party and my husband said to me, "i'm sick and tired of you shouting at the television whenever gordon brown comes on, so will you please put your name forward?" so i did. and, you know, going through the conservative party processes, find myself as a candidate. some four years later. there's a bit of a theme emerging here, victoria atkins, the health secretary. bit of a theme. your dad and your mum say you're good at arguing and your husband says you're good at shouting at the telly. what were you arguing about when you were young? 0h, crikey, i was a teenage girl. i mean, you know, we find lots of things to argue about. that's part of growing up. but were you arguing with your mum and dad? i mean, a lot of people grow up and think mum and dad got it all horribly wrong. but, a way, you followed your dad. notjust becoming a conservative mp, but becoming — we'll come to this —

what some people call a one nation conservative, a sort of centre—left tory. so you weren't rowing about politics? no, it tended to be when i was getting home from... getting home at night on a friday night or a saturday, the usual sorts of boundary pushing. you didn'tjust have your dad is a political influence. he was close tojohn major, who says he remembers you in your nappies. do you remember him as a toddler, as a girl growing up? and what influence did he have on you? not as a toddler, but certainly, yes. i mean, still very much in contact with him. he's been, again, someone else who has shown me the good that we can do in politics. and when i look at, for example, the work thatjohn started in northern ireland that culminated in the good friday agreement, you know, that is an incredible legacy that communities across northern ireland are benefiting from this day. and so that sort of very

understanding and understated work in politics, i think there's a real role for that. and i'm not sure in this day and age, with social media and stuff, that side of politics necessarily comes out quite as it should. you've talked about an understated approach. northern ireland. i don't want to stretch a parallel, because ending years of terrorism in northern ireland is not the same as ending strikes in any part of the world, but particularly in the nhs. but is there a lesson to learn there? you've faced strikes throughout the nhs since you became health secretary last november. when emma runswick sat in the chair that you're in now, she's one of the bosses of the british medical association, the bma, she said a few months ago that she thought you had a very different approach, that you were more positive than your predecessors. and yet until the last day or two,

there's not been much evidence of change. are we seeing that now? well, i very much hope so. and if i may, on industrial action, obviously last year, when i became health secretary in november, we'd had a very difficult year for the health system with industrial action. we had seen some 1.4 million appointments cancelled. and that isn'tjust a figure on a spreadsheet. those are people, possibly listening to this at home, whose appointments have been cancelled, who are in pain, who are in distress. and so i wanted to find solutions to this as quickly and as fairly as i could. and so i was really pleased when we were able to reach an agreement with consultants about the contract. but with the specialist and speciality doctors, it has to be voted on by members. but i hope, given the very collaborative approach we've had, that members will feel able to accept it. and then we've also announced that we are entering mediation with thejunior doctors committee to try to progress our discussions. this mediation is fascinating, because the bma says in its press

release that this is a way to restore trust. and the first question i asked your department was, "well, who's doing the mediation?" and you're not telling us, are you? why aren't you telling us? i'm not, because, again, you know, referencing our conversations earlier, sometimes we have to give people the time and the space to be able to have these discussions. and so, for this process, i just want to ensure that all the people around the table are not feeling that they're beholden to, you know, deadlines or tweets they have to put out that we can have these discussions. because for me, you know, i want this to be resolved so that we can continue to see the reduction in waiting lists that we already have seen over the last six months. i want patients to be treated. the nhs is there to look after us all and industrial action does not help with that. but, just to be clear, these are effectively talks in secret, if they can be,

a bit like you'd have an a peace process where people are going away for some time, away from the glare of the media and the temptations of social media, you hope, to try to get a settlement? very much so. and, for me, it's notjust about... although of course, pay is really important, it's also about the working conditions of our health workforce. so i've said all along, i want to help junior doctors with some of the working conditions that they're facing that just make life really tough for them. and a few weeks ago we published, with nhs england, a programme of work to ensure that working conditions are better. it's a first step, but i hope a positive step and i hope that the medical doctors will see that and think, "0k, she said she would help on working conditions and she is doing so," so that we can continue these discussions about other matters as well. hasn't the problem always been the people who are not in the room? your boss, the prime minister and the chancellor have basically been saying to you, "don't cave into strikes, victoria."

well, of course i would never discuss conversations between the prime minister, the chancellor and myself. but they're not a block to progress? very much not, no. we all want to find progress for our patients. and indeed, you know, with strikes, it's notjust the period of strike activity that hurts the system and people. it's the weeks leading up to the strike dates, you know, because the system is trying to prepare for that. it's the weeks after the strike dates, because nurses and doctors who've worked overtime to cover those who are striking need rest. and so it has a much, much longer tail than just the strike. can you contemplate going to the electorate, calling for another mandate while there are still strikes in the nhs? i am very, very hopeful that this set of mediations, as i say, it's a positive step forward. we have already been able to find accommodation and make deals with consultants and with speciality doctors, and so now it

falls onjunior doctors. but, in fairness to them, you know, we've had three months without strikes and we've seen real progress on waiting lists, we've seen... you know, that's really encouraging. and so we just need to have this period, if you like, of discussion, away from the spotlight just to see what we can do next. when you got the job of health secretary, back in november, you must have thought, "i might only have a year in thisjob." and i'm not prejudging the election result. it's just the nature of things that people get moved, often, after general elections, even if the conservatives were to win that election. did you think then, "what's going to be my legacy? i may only have a year and it's a heck of a big job, but a year isn't a long time." and in as much as you did, at that stage, was a smoking ban on your agenda? or did rishi sunak come to you and say, "this is the big thing i want to do?" well, i think a colleague

once described me as an impatient minister. if i have this amazing opportunity to make change within our nhs, i'm going to seize every moment i can and really drive forward both reform, but also consolidate the achievements that we've seen over the last 14 years. one of the most transformative public health reforms we can make is indeed the smoking ban. we know that smoking causes four in ten cancers, and we know it takes an enormous toll on notjust individuals, but also on the economy. it costs us some £17 billion. so if we're able to stop smoking, not only is that good for our young people that we're directing this towards, it's also good for our economy and for the nhs. so what did you think when borisjohnson, yourformer boss, said, "i think they're absolutely nuts"? "when the party of winston churchill wants to ban cigars, donnez—moi un break, as they say in quebec." i think he was in quebec when he gave that quote. "it's just mad," he said. 0k, well, first of all, an adult winston churchill would still be

able to smoke his cigars. because what we're not doing is saying to anyone who can smoke legally at the moment, we are absolutely maintaining that that freedom. what we're saying is that we want to stop children and young people from falling into the habit in the first place. so we know that the overwhelming majority of people start smoking before the age of 20. and we want to ensure that, through this change in the law for retail of cigarettes, that we believe the modelling shows us we will see a huge reduction in smoking over the next ten years. but on the central point, philosophically, of whether this is conservative... and as a conservative, i don't like banning things. but i also don't believe that there is liberty in addiction, and nicotine is one of the most addictive substances. there is a reason why, for example, vaping companies put nicotine in their vapes. who said, "the nanny state

really doesn't work, i'm very sceptical about those sorts of finger wagging, terrifying statements that the left and labour seem to like"? so... that was you! that was me, it was. right, all right, nick robinson. 0k. so that was in the context of the conversation, the national conversation we have to have about obesity. and there is a clear, qualitative difference between the addiction that nicotine and cigarettes brings on as opposed to somebody having a diet that we need to encourage them to help to improve. i hear the distinction you're making, which is tobacco is, in all circumstances, potentially going to kill you. not true of sugar. and so i hear the distinction. but it is the case, isn't it, that sugar and salt are addictive and that people find them incredibly difficult to give up in cheap food, and that there are manufacturers who try to make them addicted to that cheap food. and this is why we have brought forward, for example, measures to ensure that sweets and those sorts of products are not on sale by the tills. you know, as a parent, i know how difficult it is to walk

through the chocolate aisle, with with my son. you know, some people say they say you are — not your fault, a woman shouldn't be judged by what her husband does and vice versa — you are inevitably compromised by the fact that your husband is the boss of british sugar. you're open about it, you've declared it. you've taken all the sort of measures one has to take in politics if you want to insulate yourself from a conflict of interest. do you at the breakfast table, though, say, "it's got to change, this"? i do not. i'm really strict about this because i take it i take it really seriously that... you know, my husband has his own career. and i wouldn't dream of asking him to give up his career, just as he wouldn't dream to ask me to give up my career, for

the benefit of our separate careers. what i would point to are two things. first of all, i voted enthusiastically for the sugar tax. and, secondly, i have a complicated relationship with sugar, given my type one diabetes. but i absolutely assure you that i take my responsibilities in this regard, and i've recused myself from these discussions because i never want any potential for even the perception of a conflict to arise. you've talked of values mattering, and you call yourself, as your father did, when he was a conservative mp, a one nation conservative. simple question — what on earth does that mean? it means that we believe that, for the people who can do so, we provide a ladder to the stars, but we have a safety net underneath for those who cannot. and, to me, this is about compassion. it's about giving people that chance in life, giving them that opportunity and allowing them to flourish, but also being very, very careful to ensure that if, for example, someone is a victim of crime, if they need an operation, that the nhs, the criminaljustice system is there to look after them. and i genuinely believe, you know, these values that we hold so dear as a conservative party, actually, they are where the british public are at.

interesting you say the conservative party, because it seems to me ever since you came into parliament in 2015, people haven't seen many of those values at all. they've seen a warfare involving right wing factions, really. did you have a little cheer when natalie elphicke joined another party? well, just on the first part of your question, we have lived... politics has been through a very tumultuous, but also actually a very exciting time. the last nine years, since i've been in politics. and we had the brexit referendum. that was a huge constitutional change and we have delivered that. we've also had a once in a century pandemic with covid. it took an enormous toll on everyone. but we are through that and we are dealing with its consequences. but none of this was one nation conservative. there's a great war on the right of the tory party, with you in the one nation group barely having a prominent individual in those debates.

well, again, for me, the conservative party, one of the joys of the conservative party is that we are... you know, we welcome robust debate. going back to the smoking bill, i welcome the fact that people are scrutinising my proposal to ban legal sales of cigarettes and tobacco to children as they grow older. i think that's absolutely the right thing to do. just for fun, what did you say when natalie elphicke was revealed as a new labour mp? i think it came as a surprise to pretty much everybody, given how hard right she is, that she had apparently swallowed her principles and crossed the floor. i think also... any other candidates you'd quite like to see, any other candidate? jacob rees—mogg, perhaps? would you like to see him change party? it was... suella braverman? i think there is a point here about quite where the values of the labour party are. ah, you've turned it round to the labour party.

if they're prepared to accept someone who is so out of step with their apparent principles, they seem to have thrown those down the bin. a last helpful thought, we know that suella, kemi, penny, three prominent women are the most prominent candidates to be leaders of the conservative party. can we add the name victoria? i have an amazing job at the moment. i mean, i genuinely i love doing this role. and i am working night and day to help people get the care they deserve on the national health service. i'll take that as a maybe. victoria atkins, thank you very much forjoining me on political thinking. thank you. once again, it's clear that the personal is often the political. you learn a whole lot more from talking about people's backgrounds, their life experiences, their values, than sometimes hearing the line they have to take as a front line politician. if you want to listen to any of the interviews i've done as part of this series, more than 200 now, you can go to the back catalogue. it's on bbc sounds. you can subscribe there, too.

and next week i'm going to bejoined by the writer caitlin moran, who's arguing that men, that boys, now need their own version of the feminist movement. thanks for watching. good evening. whilst we've had some warm sunshine today, we've had some intense thunderstorms and some sea fog persisting. now, those storms will rumble on for a few more hours yet into this evening, giving quite significant rainfall. so, local flooding where they fall. the details, of course, more online. the other issues through the day have been this weather front, bringing more cloud across the north and west of scotland. that'll still be with us through the night. elsewhere, through the rest of this evening, the showers will rumble on,

giving some localised flooding before fading away. and then the mist, and the low cloud and the fog returns very widely. we'll see some home—grown fog, if you like, inland as well. so a fresher night, cooler than last night, eight or nine degrees celsius. and a really grey and misty slow start to our sunday morning. but that should then retreat back to the coast, that sea fog and any inland fog will clear. then there should be fewer showers for sunday than we've had during the day today, particularly across england and wales. and there'll be more cloud anyway across scotland. so that'll inhibit as many showers to form. but there will be one or two isolated showers and intense downpours because there's little wind to move them around. and it could be that some of that sea fog, notjust the north sea, but around the irish sea coast, lingers for much of the day. so, a slow start, but finally,

when the sun comes through, it'll be a little bit warmer across england and wales inland than today, and perhapsjust a notch down across scotland, only because we've got more cloud to start with. it should brighten up with some sunshine and the sun is strong. but at this time of year, with the chilly seas around our shores, when you get this warm, moist air, as we have at the moment, coming over that sea, it condenses out and it forms that fog. so it's, again, a similar process as we start monday morning. lots of misty, grey weather, fog around as well. retreating back generally to the coast, one or two isolated showers and thunderstorms then developing. butjust because we've got a bit of a northerly drift on monday, temperatures might be a notch or two down on those of sunday. but still strong sunshine, still just as strong, even though the temperatures are a little down. moving beyond monday to tuesday, we might well pick up low pressure towards the south and west. so, more showers. and then by wednesday, the threat of something wetter and windier moving its way northwards, which will cool things down significantly. and it will be windier, quite a lot of rain is forecast as well. it might well ease towards the end of the week. more details of course,

as ever, on the website. live from london, this is bbc news. the un says 800,000 people have been forced to flee rafah since an israeli offensive began nearly two weeks ago. president zelensky says ukraine only has about a quarter of the air defences it needs to fight off russian attacks.

a close ally of the late russian opposition leader alexei navalny tells the bbc he will "never give up" fighting putin. he asked us to never give up and to continue our work and to build, and defeat putin and build this beautiful russia of the future. and a boil water notice has been lifted for most residents after a parasite outbreak in devon. hello and welcome to bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak. the head of the un agency for palestinian refugees says more than 800,000 people have been forced to flee rafah in southern gaza due to the ongoing israeli offensive. philippe lazzarini said they were leaving without safe passage or protection,

heading to areas with little water or sanitation.