in buckingham palace. time for a look at the weather. here's chris fawkes.

sir keir starmer makes six promises to the electorate should labour win the election. but what did he leave out? do you trust sir keir starmer to deliver on his promises any more than any other politician? the chair of the labour party is here live. also tonight... these four men are haemophiliaics. as pupils together at the same boarding school, they were infected with deadly diseases

like hiv and hepatits. 80 of their school friends are dead as a result. they are all victims of the biggest nhs treamtent scandal this country's ever seen — the contaminated blood scandal. they talk to us as the public inquiry prepares to publish its findings next week. while the prime minister was chatting on itv�*s loose women today, the labour leader was in thurrock in essex, a place labour would need to win in the forthcoming election to get a majority. it pretty much felt like the unofficial starting gun on the whole campaign. back in 1949 nye bevan said, "the language of priorities is the religion of socialism", and today we heard six of sir keir starmer�*s priorities. he laid out six pledges to voters, should labour win that next election. nothing new as such was announced — but with sleeves rolled up, jacket off and tieless,

the message he was hoping to convey was, he's ready to get cracking. nick was there. nick, how significant was today? well, as you say, it rather had the feel of the launch of labour's general election campaign so a big personal focus general election campaign so a big personalfocus on the general election campaign so a big personal focus on the leader and those first six steps he would take if he were to win the general election. it had a ratherfamiliar ring. remember1987 election. it had a ratherfamiliar ring. remember 1987 and tony blair's five pledges? keir starmer was keen to say that he is his own man and this is no reprieves of 1997 but why don't we look at those cards side by side? you can see the similarities in presentational style. but there's a big difference. the blair pledges weren't overly ambitious but they weren't overly ambitious but they were quite specific. the starman steps were less specific hence the whispers about whether he being overly cautious —— de keir starmer steps. in 1997, and the bottom

right—hand corner, no rise in income tax rates. on the top left of the one today, it talks about keeping taxes, inflation and mortgage is as low as possible. will labour regret not being specific on that? the front page of the daily telegraph tomorrow and the daily express, banner headlines quoting the chancellor saying that taxes will rise under labour. after the launch in essex i travelled to the true blue garrison town of aldershot with the shadow defence secretary george healy. labour recently took control of the council there. i asked him if the labour offering is too timid. the vision is there, this is saying to people that we are ready, ready to people that we are ready, ready to roll _ to people that we are ready, ready to roll up _ to people that we are ready, ready to roll up our sleeves and do the hard _ to roll up our sleeves and do the hard graft — to roll up our sleeves and do the hard graft to deliver the change that people want. keir starmer said this morning, if i can't deliver it, i won't _ this morning, if i can't deliver it, i won't say— this morning, if i can't deliver it, i won't say it _ this morning, if i can't deliver it, i won't say it. what these six steps are, the _ i won't say it. what these six steps are, the first— i won't say it. what these six steps

are, the first things that labour in government will do. we can do some of them _ government will do. we can do some of them quickly. if people want better— of them quickly. if people want better controls of britain's borders, _ better controls of britain's borders, with the tories have been completely lost control, then there are steps _ completely lost control, then there are steps to set up a national border— are steps to set up a national border command. it can be done fast, can be _ border command. it can be done fast, can be effective and will make a difference. ion can be effective and will make a difference-— can be effective and will make a difference. jon eley has recently returned from _ difference. jon eley has recently returned from ukraine _ difference. jon eley has recently returned from ukraine i - difference. jon eley has recently returned from ukraine i asked . difference. jon eley has recently i returned from ukraine i asked him, if he becomes defence secretary, how would he approach the conflict? —— jon ——jon i'm proud of britain's leadership on ukraine. i'm proud we were the first country to deliver main battle tanks, long—range missiles, training for their troops. and in future, we will need to discuss and we will need to respond and encourage allies to respond as well to what ukraine needs to stay in the fight, to fight and push the russians back and ultimately get to the point where they can launch negotiations successfully, re—establish their country, in peacetime, but remaining sovereign with their own territorial integrity.

and finally i asked him about natalie elphicke. he was instrumental in her deflection because they had a shared interest over a number of years in housing. i asked him whether he did enough to alert the labour party to help. she was a member of the brexit research group and after her husband was convicted on two counts of sexual assault she stood by him and appeared to be critical of his victims. ~ .,, appeared to be critical of his victims. ~ , .,, appeared to be critical of his victims. , , victims. most people in the country would say you'd _ victims. most people in the country would say you'd expect _ victims. most people in the country would say you'd expect to - victims. most people in the country would say you'd expect to stand - victims. most people in the country would say you'd expect to stand by| would say you'd expect to stand by your husband or your wife if they were _ your husband or your wife if they were in_ your husband or your wife if they were in trouble. most people would say, if— were in trouble. most people would say, if you — were in trouble. most people would say, if you are a conservative mp, you would — say, if you are a conservative mp, you would say bad things about the labour— you would say bad things about the labour party. labour mps say that about _ labour party. labour mps say that about the — labour party. labour mps say that about the conservatives. the profound _ about the conservatives. the profound decision, her friends, about the conservatives. the profound decision, herfriends, her colleagues, — profound decision, herfriends, her colleagues, her staff are part of the conservative network, was to

say, _ the conservative network, was to say, i've — the conservative network, was to say, i've given up on these. it's time _ say, i've given up on these. it's time to— say, i've given up on these. it's time to shift and i am willing to back keit— time to shift and i am willing to back keir starmer. | time to shift and i am willing to back keir starmer.— time to shift and i am willing to back keir starmer. i should say that after her defection _ back keir starmer. i should say that after her defection natalie - back keir starmer. i should say that after her defection natalie elphicke| after her defection natalie elphicke did apologise for those remarks. thank you, nick. let's talk now to the chair of labour, anneliese dodds, who is also shadow secretary for women and equalities. thanks for talking to our audience. tony blair, before the 1997 election promised no increase in income taxes. keir starmer hasn't made that specific pledge. should voters expect income tax to go up if labour win the election?— win the election? actually labour has been really _ win the election? actually labour has been really clear— win the election? actually labour has been really clear that - win the election? actually labour has been really clear that we - win the election? actually labour. has been really clear that we don't believe working people should be paying the price for government mistakes. they certainly have under the conservatives. we've seen taxes going up 25 times under the conservatives. we would in fact potentially be seeing them going up in different directions if the

government's unfunded £46 billion removal of national insurance went ahead. that would have to be soaked up ahead. that would have to be soaked up somewhere else, if there is not a cut to the pension and it is not an increase in borrowing then edward need to be coming from taxes. that's not the labour approach. we will take appropriate decisions on tax. we don't think it is right that if someone lives here that they cannot pay tax here. we would plug those gaps in the non—dom taxation. we would be cracking down on tax dodgers. we would use that money to deliver the extra nhs appointments that keir starmer talked about today. we want to see taxes on working people ultimately coming down. so working people ultimately coming down. , working people ultimately coming down, , ., �* working people ultimately coming down. , ., �* working people ultimately coming down. , . �* ., working people ultimately coming down. , ., �* ., ., down. so why haven't you made a ledae, down. so why haven't you made a pledge. then? — down. so why haven't you made a pledge, then? hang _ down. so why haven't you made a pledge, then? hang on. - down. so why haven't you made a pledge, then? hang on. why - down. so why haven't you made a i pledge, then? hang on. why haven't you made a specific pledge today that income tax won't go up under a labour government?— that income tax won't go up under a labour government? we've been very clear about our _ labour government? we've been very clear about our tax _ labour government? we've been very clear about our tax plans. _ labour government? we've been very clear about our tax plans. we - labour government? we've been very clear about our tax plans. we will - clear about our tax plans. we will announce those before the next

general election. 50 announce those before the next general election.— announce those before the next general election. so they might go u - . ? general election. so they might go u.? the general election. so they might go up- ? they will _ general election. so they might go up. ? they will be _ general election. so they might go up. ? they will be focused - general election. so they might go up. ? they will be focused on - general election. so they might go up. ? they will be focused on the l up. ? they will be focused on the need to be _ up. ? they will be focused on the need to be getting _ up. ? they will be focused on the need to be getting taxes - up. ? they will be focused on the need to be getting taxes on - up. ? they will be focused on the i need to be getting taxes on working people down. unfortunately taxes on working people have been going up under the conservatives. frankly i find the conservatives's claims right now pretty difficult to understand. they delivered the high tax burden. i’m understand. they delivered the high tax burden. �* ., ., ,., tax burden. i'm asking about your romises tax burden. i'm asking about your premises and _ tax burden. i'm asking about your promises and the _ tax burden. i'm asking about your promises and the first _ tax burden. i'm asking about your promises and the first steps - tax burden. i'm asking about your promises and the first steps that l promises and the first steps that sir keir starmer claims he would take if labour win. tony blair was able to rule this out back in 1997. perhaps you could explain to voters why you are keeping the option open of raising income tax? h0. why you are keeping the option open of raising income tax?— of raising income tax? no, we've said that we _ of raising income tax? no, we've said that we want _ of raising income tax? no, we've said that we want those - of raising income tax? no, we've said that we want those taxes . of raising income tax? no, we'vei said that we want those taxes for working people to be coming down. we've been very clear about that. we have said we will set out our tax plans in full before the next election. we will never put our

country in the kind of situation we saw a few months ago, which many people watching this will still be suffering from, and that situation when we had tax plans announced by liz truss that people are still paying for now. it liz truss that people are still paying for now-— liz truss that people are still paying for now. it feels a very straightforward _ paying for now. it feels a very straightforward question - paying for now. it feels a very straightforward question from paying for now. it feels a very - straightforward question from my point of view. you able to say tonight to the newsnight viewers, we aren't going to put up income tax? rachel reeves has been very clear that she will not be putting up income tax and she will not be putting up taxes on working people and she will be setting out our tax plans in full before the next general election. i don't think there's any lack of clarity from the labour side on these questions. however we have seen smoke and mirrors from the conservatives because they put up taxes time and again on working people. fik. because they put up taxes time and again on working people.— again on working people. 0k. the joseph rowntree _ again on working people. 0k. the joseph rowntree foundation's - again on working people. 0k. the l joseph rowntree foundation's most joseph rowntree foundation's most recent figures suggest 3.8 million

people experience destitution in 2022. 1 million of them, children. it is defined as being unable to meet some of the most basic needs like staying dry, clean, warm and fed. yourformer prime minister gordon brown talked yesterday about the numbers of children in poverty. why isn't that worthy of a place on the labour party's pledge card today? the labour party's pledge card toda ? ~ . the labour party's pledge card toda? . , today? we are absolutely determined today? we are absolutely determined to ensure that — today? we are absolutely determined to ensure thatjust _ today? we are absolutely determined to ensure thatjust as _ today? we are absolutely determined to ensure thatjust as the _ today? we are absolutely determined to ensure thatjust as the previous . to ensure thatjust as the previous labour government took a huge number of children out of poverty, 1 million children out of poverty, that we would have a very strong anti—poverty strategy. that isn't divorced at all from the first steps that we set out today. if you look at the drivers of poverty in our country, you see for example that the economic instability we've had over the last few years, the lack of sustainable growth, the poor living standards, they flattered the ——

they led to the situation with so many families living in poverty. so stability, getting the country building again, those measures will be critical. also delivering opportunities for children and young people as well. we set out those plans to recruit 6500 additional teachers today because we know that those children deserve that support in—school. when they have that support it will revolutionise their life chances. brute support it will revolutionise their life chances.— life chances. we played a clip earlier of— life chances. we played a clip earlier of your _ life chances. we played a clip earlier of your shadow - life chances. we played a clip| earlier of your shadow cabinet colleaguejohn healy that earlier of your shadow cabinet colleague john healy that when natalie elphicke criticised the victims of her husband that was mrs elphick standing by her husband. that's a hell of a positive spin, isn't it? ~ ., , ., ., isn't it? well actually natalie el - hicke isn't it? well actually natalie elphicke apologised - isn't it? well actually natalie elphicke apologised for- isn't it? well actually natalie | elphicke apologised for those comments. she was clearly right to do so. she made it clear that she was wrong in making those comments and she wanted to say clearly that

she was sorry to those who had been impacted. she has made that clear in the statement she released.- the statement she released. thanks for talkinu the statement she released. thanks for talking to _ the statement she released. thanks for talking to us. _ these four men, as young boys, were sent by their parents to a boarding school for disabled children in hampshire in the �*70s and �*80s called lord mayor treloar college. each boy was born with haemophilia, a genetic condition that prevents the blood's ability to clot. the school had medical facilities on site. it meant they could be treated and be back at their desk pretty swiftly, the idea being they could have as nomal an education as possible despite their condition. while there, officials at the school gave haemophiliac pupils new blood treatments. the blood they were given was contaminated and as a result,

all four were unwittingly infected with hiv and/or hepatitis. the same happened to their school friends. at least 80 have since died. the long—running public inquiry into what has been called the worst treatment disaster in nhs history is preparing to publish its final report next week. let me introduce my guests to you. ade goodyear was infected with hiv, hepatitis b and hepatitis c. he thinks he was aged 13 when this happened. gary webster was infected with hiv and hepatitis c. he was 17 when he was infected. steve nicholls was infected with hepatitis b and c. he was nine years old when he was infected. richard warwick was infected with hiv, hepatitis b and hepatitis c. he was aged 13—14 years old when that happened. tina warwick is here too. tina and richard got married 33 years ago.

welcome to all of you, thanks for being with us. just before we came on, you just told me that you were also exposed to variant cjd, otherwise known as the human form off cow disease. when did you find that out? �* . ., that out? after we left college we had letters from... _ that out? after we left college we had letters from... it _ that out? after we left college we had letters from... it was - that out? after we left college we had letters from... it was a - that out? after we left college we | had letters from... it was a health authority, nothing to do with the college, it was a health authority saying a batch of colleagues we received a donor who gave blood in that batch has since developed cjd, mad cow disease. there is no test for it, they can't test you for it, the only way they know is when they dissect your brain. it's another ticking time bomb, really. brute dissect your brain. it's another ticking time bomb, really. we are obviously--- _ ticking time bomb, really. we are obviously... you _ ticking time bomb, really. we are obviously... you are _ ticking time bomb, really. we are obviously... you are obviously - obviously... you are obviously preparing for the final report after

the four yearly long public inquiry next week. does this feel like a huge moment? we waited for 40 years for this and we hope _ we waited for 40 years for this and we hope thatjustice we waited for 40 years for this and we hope that justice will watch over us on _ we hope that justice will watch over us on monday and we get to own our justice _ us on monday and we get to own our justice and _ us on monday and we get to own our justice and that is shown by the families, — justice and that is shown by the families, because we have lost so many— families, because we have lost so many people. 80 people, 3000 in another— many people. 80 people, 3000 in another country, and how many people have been— another country, and how many people have been through this? we hope for all those _ have been through this? we hope for all those people, and i know we have all those people, and i know we have all agreed _ all those people, and i know we have all agreed we are looking for contrition.— all agreed we are looking for contrition. . ., ., , ., contrition. and what does contrition mean to you? _ contrition. and what does contrition mean to you? we — contrition. and what does contrition mean to you? we want _ contrition. and what does contrition mean to you? we want to _ contrition. and what does contrition mean to you? we want to know - contrition. and what does contrition . mean to you? we want to know exactly what went on- — mean to you? we want to know exactly what went on. and _ mean to you? we want to know exactly what went on. and we _ mean to you? we want to know exactly what went on. and we want _ mean to you? we want to know exactly what went on. and we wantjustice. - what went on. and we want justice. and we _ what went on. and we want justice. and we do— what went on. and we want justice. and we do not— what went on. and we want justice. and we do not want— what went on. and we want justice. and we do not want any— what went on. and we want justice. and we do not want any more - and we do not want any more cover-ups _ and we do not want any more cover—ups. there _ and we do not want any more cover—ups. there have - and we do not want any more cover—ups. there have been i and we do not want any more - cover—ups. there have been many covered _ cover—ups. there have been many covered ups — cover—ups. there have been many covered ups over— cover—ups. there have been many covered ups over the _ cover—ups. there have been many covered ups over the years. - cover—ups. there have been many covered ups over the years. we i cover—ups. there have been many. covered ups over the years. we have been _ covered ups over the years. we have been fighting — covered ups over the years. we have been fighting for— covered ups over the years. we have been fighting for years _ covered ups over the years. we have been fighting for years to _ covered ups over the years. we have been fighting for years to get - covered ups over the years. we have been fighting for years to get this . been fighting for years to get this inquiry _ been fighting for years to get this inquiry. and —

been fighting for years to get this inquiry. and to— been fighting for years to get this inquiry. and to find _ been fighting for years to get this inquiry. and to find out— been fighting for years to get this inquiry. and to find out the - been fighting for years to get this inquiry. and to find out the truth. and we _ inquiry. and to find out the truth. and we all— inquiry. and to find out the truth. and we all need _ inquiry. and to find out the truth. and we all need that, _ inquiry. and to find out the truth. and we all need that, all- inquiry. and to find out the truth. and we all need that, all of- inquiry. and to find out the truth. and we all need that, all of the l and we all need that, all of the families, — and we all need that, all of the families, the _ and we all need that, all of the families, the children, - and we all need that, all of the families, the children, the - and we all need that, all of the - families, the children, the parents. and us— families, the children, the parents. and us as _ families, the children, the parents. and us as welt _ families, the children, the parents. and us as well. steve, _ families, the children, the parents. and us as well. steve, what - families, the children, the parents. and us as well. steve, what are - families, the children, the parents. and us as well. steve, what are your thoughts as you wait for this final report? i thoughts as you wait for this final re ort? ., . report? i would agree with everything _ report? i would agree with everything that _ report? i would agree with everything that has - report? i would agree with everything that has been l report? i would agree with - everything that has been said, we are looking for our stories to be validated, for people to realise that what we were saying for 40 years happened, some people in the pastjust years happened, some people in the past just said years happened, some people in the pastjust said no, they would not have done that to children, but they did. they did that knowingly. we feel that we were used as guinea pigs, as laboratory rats, as children, and we feel that treloar�*s were undertaking unethical trials that we could only take because we had no safety net, our parents signed their little boys what in care over to treloar�*s, giving them

power to act as our parents and we were given no choice, it was all done behind closed doors. secretively. and that was wrong. experimentation on children was wrong, it is wrong today. richard? as far as the _ wrong, it is wrong today. richard? as far as the inquiry _ wrong, it is wrong today. richard? as far as the inquiry report - wrong, it is wrong today. richard? as far as the inquiry report is - as far as the inquiry report is concerned, most people want accountability. they want the feet of the _ accountability. they want the feet of the government held to the fire and some — of the government held to the fire and some people would like to see the people responsible locked up. as far as _ the people responsible locked up. as far as some _ the people responsible locked up. as far as some sort of restitution is concerned. _ far as some sort of restitution is concerned, i think people just want closure _ concerned, i think people just want closure. they want closure, they want _ closure. they want closure, they want the — closure. they want closure, they want the book closed on this saga that has— want the book closed on this saga that has lasted for five decades. they— that has lasted for five decades. they want— that has lasted for five decades. they want to see the families having some _ they want to see the families having some sort— they want to see the families having some sort of security. for the long run. some sort of security. for the long run so— some sort of security. for the long run so that — some sort of security. for the long run. so that they can forget about this _

run. so that they can forget about this. because every time it gets brought— this. because every time it gets brought up in the house of commons or every— brought up in the house of commons or every time we have tried to push to get— or every time we have tried to push to get somewhere, we have been kicked _ to get somewhere, we have been kicked back again and again and this has happened from successive governments who have taken this line, _ governments who have taken this line. that — governments who have taken this line, that there was nothing to see. we will— line, that there was nothing to see. we will talk— line, that there was nothing to see. we will talk about financial redress and much more about how this happened to you and we will hear from you as well, tina. we know that you have never spoken publicly before. we will bring in our health reporter, jim reed. you have been covering this for how many years? the best part of a decade, just a small proportion of the overall scandal. in small proportion of the overall scandal. , ., , scandal. in terms of the inquiry, what have _ scandal. in terms of the inquiry, what have we — scandal. in terms of the inquiry, what have we learned _ scandal. in terms of the inquiry, what have we learned when - scandal. in terms of the inquiry, what have we learned when it i scandal. in terms of the inquiry, - what have we learned when it comes to how many people were affected by contaminated blood? you to how many people were affected by contaminated blood?— to how many people were affected by contaminated blood? you were talking about 80 boys — contaminated blood? you were talking about 80 boys dying _ contaminated blood? you were talking about 80 boys dying at _ contaminated blood? you were talking about 80 boys dying atjust _ contaminated blood? you were talking about 80 boys dying atjust the - contaminated blood? you were talking about 80 boys dying atjust the one i about 80 boys dying atjust the one school. in about 80 boys dying at 'ust the one school. ., ,. ., ., about 80 boys dying at 'ust the one school. ., ,. , , , school. in one school, but is 'ust outrageous. fl school. in one school, but is 'ust outrageous. one i school. in one school, but is 'ust outrageous. one offi school. in one school, but is 'ust outrageous. one of the i school. in one school, but is 'ust outrageous. one of the first h school. in one school, but isjust l outrageous. one of the first things inuui did outrageous. one of the first things inquiry did was _ outrageous. one of the first things inquiry did was try _ outrageous. one of the first things inquiry did was try to _

outrageous. one of the first things inquiry did was try to get _ outrageous. one of the first things inquiry did was try to get a - outrageous. one of the first things inquiry did was try to get a handle | inquiry did was try to get a handle on the overall numbers infected and it is worth going through those numbers because they are stark. if we look, overall, something around 33,000 people were infected in this scandal and 3000 have died and there were two main groups, people with the blood disorder haemophilia, we have four of those people here today. we think roughly 1300 were infected with hiv and between 2000 505,000 with hepatitis c, which can be a debilitating disease that can lead to cirrhosis and liver cancer. add a second group affected. these are people who have had a blood transfusion after, for example, a car accident or childbirth and we think roughly 27,000 in that group would have been infected with hepatitis c and a smaller number, between 80 and 100, with hiv, these

a big figures but taken as a whole, we are talking about literally the biggest treatment disaster since the nhs was founded in 1948. band biggest treatment disaster since the nhs was founded in 1948.— biggest treatment disaster since the nhs was founded in 1948. and how did contaminated — nhs was founded in 1948. and how did contaminated blood _ nhs was founded in 1948. and how did contaminated blood arrive _ nhs was founded in 1948. and how did contaminated blood arrive in _ nhs was founded in 1948. and how did contaminated blood arrive in this - contaminated blood arrive in this country? it contaminated blood arrive in this count ? , , contaminated blood arrive in this count ? , ., country? it is complex and if we talk about _ country? it is complex and if we talk about people _ country? it is complex and if we talk about people with - country? it is complex and if we - talk about people with haemophilia, we must go back to the 19705, a new type of treatment was being used, it was called factor viii or factor ix depending on what form you had. it promised to be something, marketed as a wonder drug and it allowed people to live a normal life, you would take the powder from the fridge and inject yourself, not like older treatments where you need to go to hospital. there were two key problems, how it was not a factory, it came from mixing literally tens of thousands of blood donations, if there was just one person donating who was infected with virus, it

could contaminate the entire batch. in the nhs was struggling to keep up with demand so it was often imported, in the 19705, from abroad, often the united states, people who were giving blood getting paid to donate, not the case in this country. it is the case in the united states and that led to this incentive were people who needed money more likely to donate and less likely, may be, to be open about their medical history so viruses were getting into the system. that was a case through the 19705 into the 19805 when hiv became very evident. the 1980s when hiv became very evident. , , . �* the 1980s when hiv became very evident. , , . ~ evident. give very much. and your panorama — evident. give very much. and your panorama which _ evident. give very much. and your panorama which went _ evident. give very much. and your panorama which went out - evident. give very much. and your panorama which went out on - evident. give very much. and your. panorama which went out on monday night is available on the iplayer for a year. let's go back to your schooldays. the idea of having a clinic on site, i guess it was a goodidea clinic on site, i guess it was a good idea for you and your parents,

you felt that would be great? this you felt that would be great? as our you felt that would be great? is your correspondent said, factor viii was sold as a wonder drug before i personally could not go to a normal school so it was decided that i would go to treloar�*s and i was on cryoprecipitate before then. that was the safe _ cryoprecipitate before then. that was the safe treatment? yes, i cryoprecipitate before then. that i was the safe treatment? yes, made by three or four— was the safe treatment? yes, made by three or four different _ was the safe treatment? yes, made by three or four different donations i three or four different donations whereas factor viii was thousands and it was sold as a wonder drug and we could play football and go out. do normal things that we never have been able to do before. did do normal things that we never have been able to do before.— been able to do before. did any of the staff or _ been able to do before. did any of the staff or the _ been able to do before. did any of the staff or the medics _ been able to do before. did any of the staff or the medics talk i been able to do before. did any of the staff or the medics talk to i been able to do before. did any of the staff or the medics talk to you j the staff or the medics talk to you or your parents about the new blood treatment and whether there were any risks? not a one. never. treatment and whether there were any risks? nota one. never. did treatment and whether there were any risks? not a one. never. did they get consent to give you these treatments?— get consent to give you these treatments? , ., , treatments? they never even told us. that was the —

treatments? they never even told us. that was the main _ treatments? they never even told us. that was the main problem. - treatments? they never even told us. that was the main problem. there i treatments? they never even told us. | that was the main problem. there was no communication to speak of. between — no communication to speak of. between the college haematologists and our _ between the college haematologists and our parents so every time the treatment— and our parents so every time the treatment was changed, unknown to us, neither— treatment was changed, unknown to us, neitherwe treatment was changed, unknown to us, neither we would know other parents — us, neither we would know other parents were not told that the change — parents were not told that the change was taken place. that 'ust seems unbelievable. i change was taken place. that 'ust seems unbelievable. ok, i change was taken place. that 'ust seems unbelievable. ok, it i change was taken place. that 'ust seems unbelievable. ok, it isi change was taken place. thatjust seems unbelievable. ok, it is thej seems unbelievable. ok, it is the 19705 but it is not that long ago! that was for that whole period of time. , , , , ., , that was for that whole period of time. , , ., time. they were supposed to telephone — time. they were supposed to telephone our _ time. they were supposed to telephone our parents i time. they were supposed to telephone our parents with i time. they were supposed to i telephone our parents with every treatment change, that was supposed to happen _ treatment change, that was supposed to happen and it never happened. there _ to happen and it never happened. there was— to happen and it never happened. there was a series of prophylaxis trials, given two or three doses of factor vii! every week on the idea was it was preventative but the problem is rather than sticking to the one batch from the one manufacturer, which was a safer option, even if it meant it was going to be 30,000 donors, what they did was they interchanged

manufacturers and the batches from different manufacturers so you were exponentially getting more and more risk. it exponentially getting more and more risk. . , . ., , .,. exponentially getting more and more risk. . , . ., , .. ._ risk. it was increasing each day. when did you — risk. it was increasing each day. when did you first _ risk. it was increasing each day. when did you first get _ risk. it was increasing each day. when did you first get the i risk. it was increasing each day. | when did you first get the sense that something was wrong? to us it was fairly normal _ that something was wrong? to us it was fairly normal when _ that something was wrong? to us it was fairly normal when we - that something was wrong? to us it was fairly normal when we were i was fairly normal when we were at college _ was fairly normal when we were at college because everybody was doing it. college because everybody was doing it~ all_ college because everybody was doing it~ all of— college because everybody was doing it. all of the boys put on a full axis. — it. all of the boys put on a full axis. given— it. all of the boys put on a full axis, given three or four injections. the first alarm bells were _ injections. the first alarm bells were not— injections. the first alarm bells were not so much, taking so much out, _ were not so much, taking so much out, every— were not so much, taking so much out, every time there were checking out, every time there were checking out copious — out, every time there were checking out copious amounts of blood and later on— out copious amounts of blood and later on they would want more and we would _ later on they would want more and we would think. _ later on they would want more and we would think, why was that? we would be called _ would think, why was that? we would be called out of class, you are due for the _ be called out of class, you are due for the blood tests. this was quickly, _ for the blood tests. this was quickly, two or three times a week. the amount— quickly, two or three times a week. the amount of blood they took from usm _ the amount of blood they took from us... ~ . , the amount of blood they took from us... . . , ., the amount of blood they took from us... weather testing to see? they were testing _ us... weather testing to see? they were testing for _ us... weather testing to see? they were testing for hiv? _ us. .. weather testing to see? they

were testing for hiv? i _ us... weather testing to see? they were testing for hiv? i would i us... weather testing to see? theyj were testing for hiv? i would come out of our class _ were testing for hiv? i would come out of our class and _ were testing for hiv? i would come out of our class and you _ were testing for hiv? i would come out of our class and you had i were testing for hiv? i would come out of our class and you had to i were testing for hiv? i would come out of our class and you had to go i out of our class and you had to go to the _ out of our class and you had to go to the blood test centre. it out of our class and you had to go to the blood test centre.— to the blood test centre. it even not as to the blood test centre. it even got as far _ to the blood test centre. it even got as far as _ to the blood test centre. it even got as far as saying _ to the blood test centre. it even got as far as saying that - to the blood test centre. it even got as far as saying that if i to the blood test centre. it even got as far as saying that if you l to the blood test centre. it even i got as far as saying that if you did not turn up to have your blood tests you are punished. you were given black marks and detention. gary. you are punished. you were given black marks and detention. gary, i understand — black marks and detention. gary, i understand you — black marks and detention. gary, i understand you were _ black marks and detention. gary, i understand you were told - black marks and detention. gary, i understand you were told in i understand you were told in particularly brutal fashion that you had hiv. can you tell our audience? i was called out of my lessons my best friend at the time. we were asked to go to the sick bay. and to the doctor's office. there was a staff nurse, haemophilia nurse, and they basicallyjust staff nurse, haemophilia nurse, and they basically just said, staff nurse, haemophilia nurse, and they basicallyjust said, we have something to tell you, we're not sure we know much about this but you have been infected with this virus. and we sort of looked at each other, did not really know what to ask, and we asked what does it mean? well, we cannot really say what you probably won't be alive in two years. because

it was hiv- — won't be alive in two years. because it was hiv- and _ won't be alive in two years. because it was hiv. and we _ won't be alive in two years. because it was hiv. and we went _ won't be alive in two years. because it was hiv. and we went back i it was hiv. and we went back to class. are you joking?! how did you processor? class. are you 'oking?! how did you rocessor? ., class. are you 'oking?! how did you proor— class. are you 'oking?! how did you processor?— processor? you were 17? it was easier to — processor? you were 17? it was easier to process _ processor? you were 17? it was easier to process because i i processor? you were 17? it was easier to process because i was amongst 60 other boys that were told the same thing. i don't know, really, i don't know what we did. i really, i don't know what we did. i do know that all of you to a greater or lesser extent, with your friendship group at the time, essentially made deals, you made pacts? irate essentially made deals, you made acts? ~ ~ , essentially made deals, you made pacts? . ~ , ., . essentially made deals, you made pacts? «', ,. pacts? we kept in touch since leavin? pacts? we kept in touch since leaving school. _ pacts? we kept in touch since leaving school. but _ pacts? we kept in touch since leaving school. but it - pacts? we kept in touch since leaving school. but it was i pacts? we kept in touch since| leaving school. but it was that comradeship, the fact we could talk to each— comradeship, the fact we could talk to each other. and share our stories and support— to each other. and share our stories and support each other, that is what helped _ and support each other, that is what helped us— and support each other, that is what helped us in— and support each other, that is what helped us in the long run to keep us together— helped us in the long run to keep us together and keep us going. what was a oromise together and keep us going. what was a promise you — together and keep us going. what was a promise you made? _ together and keep us going. what was a promise you made? i _ together and keep us going. what was a promise you made? i can _ together and keep us going. what was a promise you made? i can remember| a promise you made? i can remember in 1983 when the _ a promise you made? i can remember in 1983 when the link— a promise you made? i can remember in 1983 when the link had _ a promise you made? i can remember in 1983 when the link had been i a promise you made? i can remember in 1983 when the link had been made l in 1983 when the link had been made with regard _

in 1983 when the link had been made with regard to — in 1983 when the link had been made with regard to haemophilia _ in 1983 when the link had been made with regard to haemophilia and i with regard to haemophilia and hiv and we _ with regard to haemophilia and hiv and we categorically— with regard to haemophilia and hiv and we categorically no _ with regard to haemophilia and hiv and we categorically no that - with regard to haemophilia and hiv and we categorically no that in - and we categorically no that in early— and we categorically no that in earlyjanuary_ and we categorically no that in earlyjanuary or _ and we categorically no that in earlyjanuary or february - earlyjanuary or february haemophilia _ earlyjanuary or february haemophilia doctor- earlyjanuary or february haemophilia doctor at i earlyjanuary or february - haemophilia doctor at treloar's earlyjanuary or february _ haemophilia doctor at treloar's was present— haemophilia doctor at treloar's was present at— haemophilia doctor at treloar's was present at a — haemophilia doctor at treloar's was present at a meeting _ haemophilia doctor at treloar's was present at a meeting at _ haemophilia doctor at treloar's was present at a meeting at heathrow l haemophilia doctor at treloar's was i present at a meeting at heathrow so he knew— present at a meeting at heathrow so he knew from — present at a meeting at heathrow so he knew from january _ present at a meeting at heathrow so he knew from january or— present at a meeting at heathrow so he knew from january or february. he knew from january or february 1983. _ he knew from january or february 1983, categorically. _ he knew from january or february 1983, categorically. and - he knew from january or february 1983, categorically. and they- 1983, categorically. and they carried — 1983, categorically. and they carried on_ 1983, categorically. and they carried on as _ 1983, categorically. and they carried on as normal. - carried on as normal. cryoprecipitate - carried on as normal. cryoprecipitate was l carried on as normal. - cryoprecipitate was deemed carried on as normal. _ cryoprecipitate was deemed the safest product _ cryoprecipitate was deemed the safest product on _ cryoprecipitate was deemed the safest product on the _ cryoprecipitate was deemed the safest product on the market i cryoprecipitate was deemed the. safest product on the market and when you — safest product on the market and when you look_ safest product on the market and when you look back _ safest product on the market and when you look back at _ safest product on the market and when you look back at the - safest product on the market andl when you look back at the records for treloar's — when you look back at the records for treloar's for— when you look back at the records for treloar's for 1983, _ when you look back at the records for treloar's for 1983, it _ when you look back at the records for treloar's for 1983, it used - when you look back at the records for treloar's for 1983, it used zero cryomecipitate _ for treloar's for 1983, it used zero cryoprecipitate. it— for treloar's for 1983, it used zero cryoprecipitate. it was _ for treloar's for 1983, it used zero cryoprecipitate. it was all- cryoprecipitate. it was all commercial— cryoprecipitate. it was all commercial products. - cryoprecipitate. it was all commercial products. cryoprecipitate. it was all commercial roducts. , ., commercial products. there was plain disre . ard commercial products. there was plain disregard for — commercial products. there was plain disregard for the _ commercial products. there was plain disregard for the safety _ commercial products. there was plain disregard for the safety advice - commercial products. there was plain disregard for the safety advice for - disregard for the safety advice for children— disregard for the safety advice for children that were there during that time _ children that were there during that time. it— children that were there during that time. ., ., ~' children that were there during that time. ., ., ,, ., ., ., children that were there during that time. ., ., ., ., , ., , time. it took two and a half years before we — time. it took two and a half years before we were _ time. it took two and a half years before we were in _ time. it took two and a half years before we were in the _ time. it took two and a half years before we were in the office, - time. it took two and a half years i before we were in the office, being told if you had hiv or not. we did not know and the parents. term told if you had hiv or not. we did not know and the parents. two and a half ears. not know and the parents. two and a half years. somebody _ not know and the parents. two and a half years. somebody new _ not know and the parents. two and a | half years. somebody new somewhere within _ half years. somebody new somewhere within the _ half years. somebody new somewhere within the college. the doctors

knew. — within the college. the doctors knew. we — within the college. the doctors knew, we are convinced the headmaster knew and we know from his written _ headmaster knew and we know from his written evidence and oral statement that he _ written evidence and oral statement that he gave the inquiry, he was having _ that he gave the inquiry, he was having weekly meetings with the haemophilia doctor. what were they talking _ haemophilia doctor. what were they talking about? we haemophilia doctor. what were they talking about?— talking about? we have got a statement — talking about? we have got a statement from _ talking about? we have got a statement from the - talking about? we have got a statement from the school. l talking about? we have got a - statement from the school. which hopefully we can show you. i will have to read this. here it is. you essentially pledge to each other and others that whichever of you survived, and you are four the survivors, you would find out the truth for those who have died. yes. that is part of your mission, isn't it? how would you say this has affected your lives? it

it? how would you say this has affected your lives?— affected your lives? it has destroyed _ affected your lives? it has destroyed all— affected your lives? it has destroyed all of _ affected your lives? it has destroyed all of our - affected your lives? it has destroyed all of our lives l affected your lives? it has. destroyed all of our lives to affected your lives? it has i destroyed all of our lives to a certain— destroyed all of our lives to a certain extent. a lot of us have been _ certain extent. a lot of us have been unable to get mortgages, life insurance. — been unable to get mortgages, life insurance, pensions. we have all had to give _ insurance, pensions. we have all had to give up— insurance, pensions. we have all had to give up work. all of us. i left college — to give up work. all of us. i left college knowing i was going to a job so i college knowing i was going to a job so i had _ college knowing i was going to a job so i had to— college knowing i was going to a job so i had to think about as well. after— so i had to think about as well. after being told you probably have two years. yes, it has totally destroyed everyone's lives. there was much more _ destroyed everyone's lives. there was much more stigma _ destroyed everyone's lives. there was much more stigma to - destroyed everyone's lives. there was much more stigma to start i destroyed everyone's lives. there i was much more stigma to start with. total loss of your place in society. as gary said, not being able to get the things that people take for granted like life insurance and health insurance. mortgages. there was nothing there. neither of us know what it feels like to live a normal life, but an adult would live. someone growing upward live. we have not experienced that.

tina and richard, you've been married for 33 years and in 1989 you became pregnant and you wanted that child but what advice were you given? child but what advice were you liven? �* . . . child but what advice were you iiven? �*, ., , ., child but what advice were you liven? �*, ., , ., ., child but what advice were you liven? �*, .,, ., .,, child but what advice were you liven? �*, ., , ., ., , ., given? it's a bit of a blur for me back then _ given? it's a bit of a blur for me back then but _ given? it's a bit of a blur for me back then but richard _ given? it's a bit of a blur for me i back then but richard especially remembers— back then but richard especially remembers us— back then but richard especially remembers us being _ back then but richard especially remembers us being absolutely| back then but richard especially- remembers us being absolutely told that we _ remembers us being absolutely told that we needed _ remembers us being absolutely told that we needed a _ remembers us being absolutely told that we needed a termination, - that we needed a termination, because — that we needed a termination, because there _ that we needed a termination, because there was _ that we needed a termination, because there was a _ that we needed a termination, | because there was a possibility that we needed a termination, - because there was a possibility that i because there was a possibility that i was _ because there was a possibility that i was infected _ because there was a possibility that i was infected. richard _ because there was a possibility that i was infected. richard wasn't- i was infected. richard wasn't expected _ i was infected. richard wasn't expected to _ i was infected. richard wasn't expected to live _ i was infected. richard wasn't expected to live very - i was infected. richard wasn't expected to live very long. i i was infected. richard wasn'ti expected to live very long. we i was infected. richard wasn't- expected to live very long. we lived everyday _ expected to live very long. we lived everyday in — expected to live very long. we lived everyday in fear _ expected to live very long. we lived everyday in fear. if _ expected to live very long. we lived everyday in fear. if you _ expected to live very long. we lived everyday in fear. if you cough, - expected to live very long. we lived everyday in fear. if you cough, is i everyday in fear. if you cough, is this the — everyday in fear. if you cough, is this the start _ everyday in fear. if you cough, is this the start of _ everyday in fear. if you cough, is this the start of the _ everyday in fear. if you cough, is this the start of the end? - this the start of the end? dreadful images of— this the start of the end? dreadful images of those _ this the start of the end? dreadful images of those young _ this the start of the end? dreadful images of those young men - this the start of the end? dreadful images of those young men in- this the start of the end? dreadful images of those young men in the| this the start of the end? dreadful- images of those young men in the end stages _ images of those young men in the end stages of— images of those young men in the end stages of their— images of those young men in the end stages of their lives. _ images of those young men in the end stages of their lives. was _ images of those young men in the end stages of their lives. was i _ images of those young men in the end stages of their lives. was i all- stages of their lives. was i all right? — stages of their lives. was i all right? was— stages of their lives. was i all right? was the _ stages of their lives. was i all right? was the baby- stages of their lives. was i all right? was the baby all- stages of their lives. was i alli right? was the baby all right? stages of their lives. was i all- right? was the baby all right? was it morally— right? was the baby all right? was it morally att— right? was the baby all right? was it morally all right _ right? was the baby all right? was it morally all right to _ right? was the baby all right? was it morally all right to bring - right? was the baby all right? was it morally all right to bring a - right? was the baby all right? was it morally all right to bring a babyi it morally all right to bring a baby into that — it morally all right to bring a baby into that situation? _ it morally all right to bring a baby into that situation? at _ it morally all right to bring a baby into that situation? at the - it morally all right to bring a baby

into that situation? at the time . it morally all right to bring a baby into that situation? at the time iti into that situation? at the time it wasn't _ into that situation? at the time it wasn't a — into that situation? at the time it wasn't a situation, _ into that situation? at the time it wasn't a situation, it _ into that situation? at the time it wasn't a situation, it just - into that situation? at the time it wasn't a situation, itjust had - into that situation? at the time it wasn't a situation, itjust had had to be _ wasn't a situation, itjust had had to be and — wasn't a situation, itjust had had to be and it's _ wasn't a situation, itjust had had to be and it's only— wasn't a situation, itjust had had to be and it's only later— wasn't a situation, itjust had had to be and it's only later you - wasn't a situation, itjust had had| to be and it's only later you think, what _ to be and it's only later you think, what if? _ to be and it's only later you think, what if? you — to be and it's only later you think, what if? you realise _ to be and it's only later you think, what if? you realise what - to be and it's only later you think, what if? you realise what you - to be and it's only later you think, i what if? you realise what you missed out on _ what if? you realise what you missed out on at _ what if? you realise what you missed out on at the — what if? you realise what you missed out on. at the time _ what if? you realise what you missed out on. at the time it— what if? you realise what you missed out on. at the time it is— what if? you realise what you missed out on. at the time it is a _ what if? you realise what you missed out on. at the time it is a bit- what if? you realise what you missed out on. at the time it is a bit of- what if? you realise what you missed out on. at the time it is a bit of a - out on. at the time it is a bit of a blur _ out on. at the time it is a bit of a blur. ., ., , ., out on. at the time it is a bit of a blur. ., ., y., ., ., ., , blur. how do you rationalise, if that's the _ blur. how do you rationalise, if that's the right _ blur. how do you rationalise, if that's the right word... - blur. how do you rationalise, if that's the right word... maybe | blur. how do you rationalise, if. that's the right word... maybe you haven't been able to rationalise the fact that you haven't been able to have children. {lit fact that you haven't been able to have children.— have children. of course that's a really difficult _ have children. of course that's a really difficult question - have children. of course that's a really difficult question for - have children. of course that's a really difficult question for both | really difficult question for both of us _ really difficult question for both of us. ., ., �* really difficult question for both ofus. ., ., �* ., , ., of us. you haven't really had time to think about _ of us. you haven't really had time to think about it. _ of us. you haven't really had time to think about it. no. _ of us. you haven't really had time to think about it. no. not - of us. you haven't really had time to think about it. no. not long - to think about it. no. not long afterthat. _ to think about it. not long after that, even to think about it.- not long after that, even though - to think about it.- not long after that, even though he - to think about it.- not long - after that, even though he started to get— after that, even though he started to get a _ after that, even though he started to get a bit— after that, even though he started to get a bit better— after that, even though he started to get a bit better on _ after that, even though he started to get a bit better on the - after that, even though he started to get a bit better on the new- to get a bit better on the new therapies _ to get a bit better on the new therapies for— to get a bit better on the new therapies for hiv _ to get a bit better on the new therapies for hiv and - to get a bit better on the new therapies for hiv and we - to get a bit better on the new- therapies for hiv and we thought maybe _ therapies for hiv and we thought maybe life — therapies for hiv and we thought maybe life is _ therapies for hiv and we thought maybe life is possible _ therapies for hiv and we thought maybe life is possible and - therapies for hiv and we thought i maybe life is possible and because of this— maybe life is possible and because of this he — maybe life is possible and because of this he was— maybe life is possible and because of this he was better— maybe life is possible and because of this he was better from - of this he was better from everything _ of this he was better from everything he's _ of this he was better from everything he's been - of this he was better from - everything he's been experiencing. then the hepatitis c started - everything he's been experiencing. then the hepatitis c started to - everything he's been experiencing. then the hepatitis c started to rear its head _ then the hepatitis c started to rear its head and — then the hepatitis c started to rear its head and he _ then the hepatitis c started to rear its head and he started _ then the hepatitis c started to rear its head and he started to - then the hepatitis c started to rear its head and he started to have - its head and he started to have symptoms _ its head and he started to have symptoms of— its head and he started to have symptoms of that _ its head and he started to have symptoms of that and - its head and he started to have symptoms of that and also - its head and he started to have symptoms of that and also the | symptoms of that and also the treatments _ symptoms of that and also the treatments for— symptoms of that and also the treatments for that, _ symptoms of that and also the treatments for that, the - symptoms of that and also the - treatments for that, the treatments

he had _ treatments for that, the treatments he had to— treatments for that, the treatments he had to undergo. _ treatments for that, the treatments he had to undergo. i— treatments for that, the treatments he had to undergo. i don't - treatments for that, the treatments he had to undergo. i don't know- treatments for that, the treatmentsi he had to undergo. i don't know how we could _ he had to undergo. i don't know how we could have — he had to undergo. i don't know how we could have come _ he had to undergo. i don't know how we could have come with— he had to undergo. i don't know how we could have come with a _ he had to undergo. i don't know how we could have come with a child - we could have come with a child while _ we could have come with a child while he — we could have come with a child while he had _ we could have come with a child while he had that. _ we could have come with a child while he had that. now- we could have come with a child while he had that. now and - we could have come with a child . while he had that. now and again, we could have come with a child - while he had that. now and again, or times— while he had that. now and again, or times you _ while he had that. now and again, or times you see — while he had that. now and again, or times you see someone, _ while he had that. now and again, or times you see someone, a _ while he had that. now and again, or times you see someone, a proud - while he had that. now and again, orl times you see someone, a proud man with a _ times you see someone, a proud man with a new— times you see someone, a proud man with a new baby— times you see someone, a proud man with a new baby and _ times you see someone, a proud man with a new baby and you _ times you see someone, a proud man with a new baby and you realise - times you see someone, a proud man with a new baby and you realise it's i with a new baby and you realise it's not going _ with a new baby and you realise it's not going to — with a new baby and you realise it's not going to be _ with a new baby and you realise it's not going to be. the _ with a new baby and you realise it's not going to be. the years - with a new baby and you realise it's not going to be. the years go - with a new baby and you realise it's not going to be. the years go by. with a new baby and you realise it's. not going to be. the years go by and you just _ not going to be. the years go by and you just have — not going to be. the years go by and you just have to _ not going to be. the years go by and you just have to put _ not going to be. the years go by and you just have to put it— not going to be. the years go by and you just have to put it to the - not going to be. the years go by and you just have to put it to the back. you just have to put it to the back of your— you just have to put it to the back of your mind _ you just have to put it to the back of your mind and _ you just have to put it to the back of your mind and get _ you just have to put it to the back of your mind and get on - you just have to put it to the back of your mind and get on with- you just have to put it to the back. of your mind and get on with things because _ of your mind and get on with things because there's _ of your mind and get on with things because there's been _ of your mind and get on with things because there's been so _ of your mind and get on with things because there's been so much - of your mind and get on with things because there's been so much else| of your mind and get on with things . because there's been so much else to think about _ because there's been so much else to think about-— think about. sure. has there been anuer? think about. sure. has there been anger? just— think about. sure. has there been anger? just a _ think about. sure. has there been anger? just a bit! _ think about. sure. has there been anger? just a bit! just _ anger? just a bit! just resentment. resentment _ anger? just a bit! just resentment. resentment is _ anger? just a bit! just resentment. resentment is the _ anger? just a bit! just resentment. resentment is the word. _ anger? just a bit! just resentment. resentment is the word. and - anger? just a bit! just resentment. - resentment is the word. and sadness. deep sadness. it resentment is the word. and sadness. deep sadness-— deep sadness. it comes out in art wa s. deep sadness. it comes out in art ways- listening — deep sadness. it comes out in art ways. listening to _ deep sadness. it comes out in art ways. listening to one _ deep sadness. it comes out in art ways. listening to one of - deep sadness. it comes out in art ways. listening to one of the - deep sadness. it comes out in art ways. listening to one of the very first people — ways. listening to one of the very first people to _ ways. listening to one of the very first people to give _ ways. listening to one of the very first people to give evidence - ways. listening to one of the very first people to give evidence in i ways. listening to one of the veryl first people to give evidence in the inquiry. _ first people to give evidence in the inquiry. when— first people to give evidence in the inquiry. when it— first people to give evidence in the inquiry, when it all— first people to give evidence in the inquiry, when it all started, - first people to give evidence in the inquiry, when it all started, he - first people to give evidence in the| inquiry, when it all started, he was a smashing — inquiry, when it all started, he was a smashing young _ inquiry, when it all started, he was a smashing young chap, _ inquiry, when it all started, he was a smashing young chap, similar- inquiry, when it all started, he was a smashing young chap, similar to| a smashing young chap, similar to richard _ a smashing young chap, similar to richard what _ a smashing young chap, similar to richard, what he's _ a smashing young chap, similar to richard, what he's been _ a smashing young chap, similar to richard, what he's been through. a smashing young chap, similar to. richard, what he's been through and he talked _ richard, what he's been through and he talked about _ richard, what he's been through and he talked about his _ richard, what he's been through and he talked about his children - richard, what he's been through and he talked about his children and - richard, what he's been through and he talked about his children and i- he talked about his children and i -ot he talked about his children and i got irrationally— he talked about his children and i got irrationally angry _

he talked about his children and i got irrationally angry listening. he talked about his children and i got irrationally angry listening to| got irrationally angry listening to him and — got irrationally angry listening to him and i— got irrationally angry listening to him and i couldn't— got irrationally angry listening to him and i couldn't concentrate . got irrationally angry listening to| him and i couldn't concentrate on what _ him and i couldn't concentrate on what he _ him and i couldn't concentrate on what he was _ him and i couldn't concentrate on what he was saying. _ him and i couldn't concentrate on what he was saying. i _ him and i couldn't concentrate on what he was saying. i had - him and i couldn't concentrate on what he was saying. i had to - him and i couldn't concentrate on what he was saying. i had to wait| what he was saying. i had to wait until— what he was saying. i had to wait until the — what he was saying. i had to wait until the break— what he was saying. i had to wait until the break and _ what he was saying. i had to wait until the break and have - what he was saying. i had to wait until the break and have a - what he was saying. i had to wait until the break and have a word i what he was saying. i had to wait. until the break and have a word with myself— until the break and have a word with mysetf because _ until the break and have a word with myself because i— until the break and have a word with myself because i was _ until the break and have a word with myself because i was so _ until the break and have a word with myself because i was so angry. - myself because i was so angry. because — myself because i was so angry. because he _ myself because i was so angry. because he had _ myself because i was so angry. because he had children? - myself because i was so angry. because he had children? it. myself because i was so angry. because he had children? it 'ust hits ou. because he had children? it 'ust hits you. rfi because he had children? it 'ust hits you. i don't i because he had children? it 'ust hits you. i don't think i because he had children? it 'ust hits you. i don't think that's h hits you. i don't think that's irrational, _ hits you. i don't think that's irrational, tina. _ hits you. i don't think that's irrational, tina. it— hits you. i don't think that's irrational, tina. it is- hits you. i don't think that's i irrational, tina. it is probably rational anger. what do you want from the inquiry? what does justice look like? from the inquiry? what does 'ustice look like? . ., , from the inquiry? what does 'ustice look like? ~ ., , ., , , look like? apology, at every single level, look like? apology, at every single level. from — look like? apology, at every single level, from every _ look like? apology, at every single level, from every medical - look like? apology, at every single level, from every medical person, | level, from every medical person, the politicians involved. an apology. the politicians involved. an aholo . the politicians involved. an apology-- yes. - the politicians involved. an apology.- yes, we i the politicians involved. an i apology.- yes, we want the politicians involved. an - apology.- yes, we want to the politicians involved. an apology. gary? yes, we want to know wh at apology. gary? yes, we want to know why at happen- _ apology. gary? yes, we want to know why at happen- i— apology. gary? yes, we want to know why at happen. i think _ apology. gary? yes, we want to know why at happen. i think we _ apology. gary? yes, we want to know why at happen. i think we know why it happened, down to cost and things like that, _ it happened, down to cost and things like that, and we weren't self—sufficient in the country but that's _ self—sufficient in the country but that's no — self—sufficient in the country but that's no excuse. doctors, politicians, pharmaceutical companies knowingly sold and

accepted this factor eight and factor— accepted this factor eight and factor nine knowing it was infected with hepatitis, and later hiv, and we want — with hepatitis, and later hiv, and we want sir— with hepatitis, and later hiv, and we want sir brian to lay it out and start— we want sir brian to lay it out and start criticising and blaming people. _ start criticising and blaming people, i think. start criticising and blaming people, ithink. sir start criticising and blaming people, ithink.— start criticising and blaming people, ithink. people, i think. sir brian is the retired judge — people, i think. sir brian is the retired judge in _ people, i think. sir brian is the retired judge in charge - people, i think. sir brian is the retired judge in charge of - people, i think. sir brian is the retired judge in charge of the i retired judge in charge of the inquiry. what do you want when the report comes out? i inquiry. what do you want when the report comes out?— report comes out? i think we are auoin to report comes out? i think we are going to learn — report comes out? i think we are going to learn very _ report comes out? i think we are going to learn very little. - report comes out? i think we are going to learn very little. we've. going to learn very little. we've seen _ going to learn very little. we've seen the — going to learn very little. we've seen the evidence, _ going to learn very little. we've seen the evidence, we've - going to learn very little. we've seen the evidence, we've livedl going to learn very little. we've . seen the evidence, we've lived it, we know — seen the evidence, we've lived it, we know we _ seen the evidence, we've lived it, we know. we don't _ seen the evidence, we've lived it, we know. we don't quite - seen the evidence, we've lived it, i we know. we don't quite understand why and _ we know. we don't quite understand why and how — we know. we don't quite understand why and how it— we know. we don't quite understand why and how it was _ we know. we don't quite understand why and how it was allowed - we know. we don't quite understand why and how it was allowed to - why and how it was allowed to happen — why and how it was allowed to happen. they— why and how it was allowed to happen. they are _ why and how it was allowed to happen. they are the - why and how it was allowed to happen. they are the answers| why and how it was allowed to i happen. they are the answers we want _ happen. they are the answers we want we — happen. they are the answers we want we want— happen. they are the answers we want. we want validation. - happen. they are the answers we want. we want validation. we - happen. they are the answers we i want. we want validation. we want the truth, — want. we want validation. we want the truth, that's _ want. we want validation. we want the truth, that's the _ want. we want validation. we want the truth, that's the most - the truth, that's the most important _ the truth, that's the most important. the _ the truth, that's the most important. the truth - the truth, that's the most important. the truth andl the truth, that's the most i important. the truth and the cover-up _ important. the truth and the cover—up must _ important. the truth and the cover—up must come - important. the truth and the cover—up must come out. i important. the truth and the. cover—up must come out. and important. the truth and the - cover—up must come out. and the fingers _ cover—up must come out. and the fingers should _ cover—up must come out. and the fingers should point, _ cover—up must come out. and the fingers should point, people - cover—up must come out. and the. fingers should point, people should be held _ fingers should point, people should be held to — fingers should point, people should be held to account. _ fingers should point, people should be held to account. if— fingers should point, people should be held to account. if there - be held to account. if there criminal— be held to account. if there criminalfindings, _ be held to account. if there criminal findings, those - be held to account. if there - criminal findings, those people should — criminal findings, those people should be — criminal findings, those people should be tried. _ let's bring in caroline wheeler, political edior

of the sunday times, who's pursued the infected blood story for two decades and has a written a book about it: death in the blood. thanks for being with us. our guests have received interim compensation of £100,000 each along with 400 victims and some of the bereaved partners. who else is going to be eligible as far as your sources know? ., ., eligible as far as your sources know? �* , ., ., , ., know? so, there's going to be a compensation — know? so, there's going to be a compensation package - know? so, there's going to be a compensation package which . know? so, there's going to be a i compensation package which could come as soon as next week in the days after the inquiry reports back. my days after the inquiry reports back. my understanding is already the government has made a commitment that the interim payment, which has so far just that the interim payment, which has so farjust been given to the infected and bereaved partners and spouses, will be extended to the children who have lost parents and the parents who have lost children. one of the questions we are still grappling with is how that's going to be paid and whether it's going to recognise those individuals in their own right or whether it will be an estates payment, which will raise

some anomalies because in some instances the children died later in life and they may have already been married so their partners may have already received some compensation. so there are still some questions about how the interim payment is going to work. more broadly speaking my understanding is that the government is committed to paying compensation to both the infected and affected and they are going to prioritise further payments to the infected living. how that works out and how it shapes up is remaining to be seen. �* . and how it shapes up is remaining to be seen-_ and i be seen. and where and when. and indeed if there's _ be seen. and where and when. and indeed if there's an _ be seen. and where and when. and indeed if there's an announcement | indeed if there's an announcement which could come on tuesday, it is still about how quickly they can get the money into people's bank accounts. that's what people like me and jim will accounts. that's what people like me andjim will be poring over accounts. that's what people like me and jim will be poring over next week to see how much of a commitment to government is going to put behind this. as you know we are in an election year and it is really important now that we see a very swift action. obviously we are

seeing two people still dying who have been involved in the scandal every week. i think sometimes there's a misconception that this is an historic scandal that happened years ago but that isn't the case. there are people i'm in touch with even now who are in the most horrific of circumstances who have been listening to what the treloar boys have been talking about, not able to work, not able to have a family, and he really need access to funding for now to support themselves.— funding for now to support themselves. �* , , ., themselves. because the people who survived have — themselves. because the people who survived have lost _ themselves. because the people who survived have lost so _ themselves. because the people who survived have lost so much, - themselves. because the people who survived have lost so much, as - themselves. because the people who survived have lost so much, as we'vej survived have lost so much, as we've heard this evening. what about the ramifications when it comes to any potential criminal proceedings for politicians who may still be alive or medics who may still be alive? what we do know is that the inquiry has delayed publishing its findings twice now and actually the reason

that's been cited in both cases is that's been cited in both cases is that process because the judge, sir brian langstaff, has been contacting people and letting them know who is going to be criticised in the report and my understanding is that there have been a huge number of people who have been criticised and have received a letter offering them an opportunity to respond to that. so i think it's very likely that we'll see a very damning report and individuals named and blamed as part of this process. find individuals named and blamed as part of this process-— of this process. and i gather that ou are of this process. and i gather that you are taking — of this process. and i gather that you are taking legal— of this process. and i gather that you are taking legal action - of this process. and i gather that l you are taking legal action against the school. and i'm guessing that, you know, when you get that report, when you read it, you will have in your mind all of those school friends who have died. is that fair? yeah. that's the main reason why we brought— yeah. that's the main reason why we brought this — yeah. that's the main reason why we brought this action. it is stayed at the moment because we wait to see what the _ the moment because we wait to see what the report says. we want to

ensure _ what the report says. we want to ensure that everyone at treloar is compensated and told the truth and that includes people who are no longer— that includes people who are no longer here, their families and siblings— longer here, their families and siblings and children. everyone. 80 siblings and children. everyone. b© lost siblings and children. everyone. lost boys. siblings and children. everyone. 80 lost boys. their parents, their wives, — lost boys. their parents, their wives, their— lost boys. their parents, their wives, their children, - lost boys. their parents, their wives, their children, if- lost boys. their parents, their wives, their children, if they i lost boys. their parents, their. wives, their children, if they had any. _ wives, their children, if they had any, we — wives, their children, if they had any. we won't _ wives, their children, if they had any, we won't stop _ wives, their children, if they had any, we won't stop until- wives, their children, if they had any, we won't stop until they- wives, their children, if they had| any, we won't stop until they get the justice — any, we won't stop until they get the justice that _ any, we won't stop until they get the justice that they— any, we won't stop until they get the justice that they deserve. - any, we won't stop until they getl the justice that they deserve. find the justice that they deserve. and that is the the justice that they deserve. that is the ripple effect the justice that they deserve. and that is the ripple effect that the justice that they deserve. that is the ripple effect thatjim was talking about half—an—hour ago. so many people... i mean, you've lost so much, as you've described, and tina as well, but so many people have been affected. there are kids... there is one boy who was on the bbc website, he lost his mum and his dad and his baby sister. he deserves to be compensated, right? his dad was at treloar's. so deserves to be compensated, right?

his dad was at treloar's.— his dad was at treloar's. so many campaigners _ his dad was at treloar's. so many campaigners along _ his dad was at treloar's. so many campaigners along the _ his dad was at treloar's. so many campaigners along the way. - his dad was at treloar's. so many campaigners along the way. not i his dad was at treloar's. so many i campaigners along the way. notjust campaigners along the way. not just the