sub—postmasters or the authority. he attached _ sub—postmasters or the authority. he attached the e—mail. the part of the email— attached the e—mail. the part of the e-mail in_ attached the e—mail. the part of the e—mail in question is of the page, fujitsu _ e—mail in question is of the page, fujitsu have — e—mail in question is of the page, fujitsu have the ability to impact branch _ fujitsu have the ability to impact branch records via the message storef _ branch records via the message store. but— branch records via the message store, but i'm extremely rigorous procedures— store, but i'm extremely rigorous procedures in place to prevent adjustments being made without prior authorisation. these controls form the core _ authorisation. these controls form the core of— authorisation. these controls form the core of our defence if we get to that stage — the core of our defence if we get to that stage. mr williams then sets out a _ that stage. mr williams then sets out a series of questions, can the post _ out a series of questions, can the post office — out a series of questions, can the post office change transaction data without _ post office change transaction data without sub—postmaster being aware of the _ without sub—postmaster being aware of the change? can fujitsu do so? if not, of the change? can fujitsu do so? if not. where's — of the change? can fujitsu do so? if not, where's the for this conclusion? if so, how does it happen? _ conclusion? if so, how does it happen? why was this functionality built in? _ happen? why was this functionality built in? why would fujitsu need to use this _ built in? why would fujitsu need to use this functionality? what controls _ use this functionality? what controls are in place to prevent unauthorised use of this method of access? _ unauthorised use of this method of access? when is branch data been impacted — access? when is branch data been impacted in this way? in relation to the previous e—mail, can it be used to change _ the previous e—mail, can it be used to change ranch counts? what is the

impact _ to change ranch counts? what is the impact of— to change ranch counts? what is the impact of this change on branch counts? — impact of this change on branch counts? will sub—postmaster be aware of the _ counts? will sub—postmaster be aware of the change? why would this method of the change? why would this method of axis _ of the change? why would this method of axis be _ of the change? why would this method of axis be used? what controls are in place _ of axis be used? what controls are in place to— of axis be used? what controls are in place to prevent misuse of this method _ in place to prevent misuse of this method of— in place to prevent misuse of this method of access? all penetrating questions, do you agree? yes. and they necessarily arise from the two lines they necessarily arise from the two tines in _ they necessarily arise from the two tines in the — they necessarily arise from the two lines in the e—mail that we have seen, _ lines in the e—mail that we have seen. they— lines in the e—mail that we have seen, they are logical questions that arise — seen, they are logical questions that arise from it? can we go please to page _ that arise from it? can we go please to page four? halfway down the page. mr davidson of fujitsu _ halfway down the page. mr davidson of fujitsu replies to mr williams, ptease _ of fujitsu replies to mr williams, please see the response below. if we io please see the response below. if we -o to please see the response below. if we go to two. _ please see the response below. if we go to two, that's it. can fujitsu change — go to two, that's it. can fujitsu change branch transaction data without — change branch transaction data without a — change branch transaction data without a sub—postmaster being aware of the _ without a sub—postmaster being aware of the change? answer, once created, branch— of the change? answer, once created, branch transaction data cannot be

changed — branch transaction data cannot be changed. then this, only additional data can _ changed. then this, only additional data can be — changed. then this, only additional data can be inserted. if this is required. _ data can be inserted. if this is required, the additional transactions will be visible on the trading _ transactions will be visible on the trading statements but would not require _ trading statements but would not require acknowledgement or approval by a sub—postmaster. the approval is given— by a sub—postmaster. the approval is given by— by a sub—postmaster. the approval is given by post office by the change process — given by post office by the change process in — given by post office by the change process. in response to a previous query. — process. in response to a previous query, fujitsu checked and found only one — query, fujitsu checked and found only one occurrence in march 2010, which _ only one occurrence in march 2010, which was _ only one occurrence in march 2010, which was early in the pilot for horizon — which was early in the pilot for horizon a _ which was early in the pilot for horizon. a detailed examination of archive _ horizon. a detailed examination of archive data would have to be undertaken to look into this access~~~ _ undertaken to look into this access... sorry, look into this across— access... sorry, look into this across the _ access... sorry, look into this across the lifetime of use. this would — across the lifetime of use. this would be — across the lifetime of use. this would be a _ across the lifetime of use. this would be a significant, complex process— would be a significant, complex process to undertake. and discussed previously— process to undertake. and discussed previously with post office, but discounted as to costly and impractical. then he gives a series of answers— impractical. then he gives a series of answers that i won't read out to

mr williams' questions. then can we gom _ mr williams' questions. then can we gom for— mr williams' questions. then can we gom for we — mr williams' questions. then can we go... forwe move on from mr williams' questions. then can we go... for we move on from that, you agree _ go... for we move on from that, you agree that _ go... for we move on from that, you agree that this — go... for we move on from that, you agree that this is fujitsu saying that fujitsu can insert branch transaction data?— that fujitsu can insert branch transaction data? yes. and this is fu'itsu transaction data? yes. and this is fuiitsu saying _ transaction data? yes and this is fujitsu saying that they transaction data? 193 and this is fujitsu saying that they could do so without _ fujitsu saying that they could do so without approval by a sub—postmaster? without approval by a sub-postmaster? without approval by a sub- ostmaster? , , . sub-postmaster? yes, they are referrinu sub-postmaster? yes, they are referring to _ sub-postmaster? yes, they are referring to the _ sub-postmaster? yes, they are referring to the balance - sub-postmaster? yes, they are referring to the balance and - referring to the balance and transaction, although he has not specifically said it here. you think this is about _ specifically said it here. you think this is about balancing _ this is about balancing transactions? | this is about balancing transactions?- this is about balancing transactions? ,. , , this is about balancing transactions? ,. , m transactions? i think so, yes. can we no to transactions? i think so, yes. can we go to page — transactions? i think so, yes. can we go to page two. _ transactions? i think so, yes. can we go to page two, please? - transactions? i think so, yes. can we go to page two, please? at i transactions? i think so, yes. canl we go to page two, please? at the foot of— we go to page two, please? at the foot of the — we go to page two, please? at the foot of the page. mr williams says... he mrwilliams says... he is

mr williams says... he is producing a first— mr williams says... he is producing a first draft — mr williams says... he is producing a first draft of the note, noting that he — a first draft of the note, noting that he is— a first draft of the note, noting that he is intentionally not referring to that e—mail as it distracts _ referring to that e—mail as it distracts from what is otherwise a very clear — distracts from what is otherwise a very clear picture. he hopes it will put the _ very clear picture. he hopes it will put the matter to bed, and the matter— put the matter to bed, and the matter need not be escalated to the working _ matter need not be escalated to the working group, yes? yes. and then .ae. working group, yes? yes. and then -ae~ one, working group, yes? 193 and then page one, please, that whole chain is provided — page one, please, that whole chain is provided to you. the proposed interim _ is provided to you. the proposed interim answer to second sight's guestion— interim answer to second sight's question as to whether it is possible _ question as to whether it is possible for anyone to access horizon — possible for anyone to access horizon online and amend transaction data without the knowledge of the sub—postmaster or their staff, the second _ sub—postmaster or their staff, the second line, there is no functionality in the horizon system either— functionality in the horizon system either through a front end terminal, or backend —

either through a front end terminal, or backend server to delete data once _ or backend server to delete data once it _ or backend server to delete data once it has — or backend server to delete data once it has been transmitted from the data _ once it has been transmitted from the data centre. this is encrypted, transferred — the data centre. this is encrypted, transferred to the data centre and stored _ transferred to the data centre and stored in — transferred to the data centre and stored in a — transferred to the data centre and stored in a separate audit server where _ stored in a separate audit server where they are recruited to ensure its integrity. the sub—postmaster will always have visibility of these extra _ will always have visibility of these extra transactions as they are shown separately— extra transactions as they are shown separately in the branch accounts. a more _ separately in the branch accounts. a more detailed note will follow. did you approve this holding response and pass— you approve this holding response and pass it — you approve this holding response and pass it to second site? | you approve this holding response and pass it to second site? i didn't a- rove and pass it to second site? i didn't approve it- — and pass it to second site? i didn't approve it- why — and pass it to second site? i didn't approve it. why was _ and pass it to second site? i didn't approve it. why was it _ and pass it to second site? i didn't approve it. why was it being - and pass it to second site? i didn't approve it. why was it being sent l and pass it to second site? i didn'tl approve it. why was it being sent to ou? to approve it. why was it being sent to you? to pass _ approve it. why was it being sent to you? to pass on. — approve it. why was it being sent to you? to pass on. i— approve it. why was it being sent to you? to pass on, i think. _ approve it. why was it being sent to you? to pass on, i think. to - approve it. why was it being sent to you? to pass on, i think. to second| you? to pass on, i think. to second site? i you? to pass on, i think. to second site? i think — you? to pass on, i think. to second site? i think so. _ you? to pass on, i think. to second site? ithink so. i— you? to pass on, i think. to second site? i think so. i tended _ you? to pass on, i think. to second site? i think so. i tended to - you? to pass on, i think. to second site? i think so. i tended to be - site? i think so. i tended to be -aassin site? i think so. i tended to be passing things _ site? i think so. i tended to be passing things onto _ site? i think so. i tended to be passing things onto them - site? i think so. i tended to be passing things onto them at i site? i think so. i tended to be. passing things onto them at the

time. . passing things onto them at the time. :. , :, passing things onto them at the time. . i. ,. , i. passing things onto them at the time. . ,. , :,: passing things onto them at the time. :, ~' . , time. can you keep your voice up, lease? time. can you keep your voice up, please? i — time. can you keep your voice up, please? i tended _ time. can you keep your voice up, please? i tended to _ time. can you keep your voice up, please? i tended to be _ time. can you keep your voice up, please? i tended to be passing i please? i tended to be passing thins please? i tended to be passing things onto _ please? i tended to be passing things onto them _ please? i tended to be passing things onto them at _ please? i tended to be passing things onto them at the - please? i tended to be passing things onto them at the time l please? i tended to be passing. things onto them at the time for please? i tended to be passing i things onto them at the time for the information. he doesn't mention balancing transactions or stop looking at this now, it should have mentioned balancing transactions. you are ahead of me in the things it failed _ you are ahead of me in the things it failed to— you are ahead of me in the things it failed to mention.— you are ahead of me in the things it failed to mention.- it - you are ahead of me in the things it failed to mention.- it fails i failed to mention. sorry. it fails to set out— failed to mention. sorry. it fails to set out that _ failed to mention. sorry. it fails to set out that fujitsu _ failed to mention. sorry. it fails to set out that fujitsu could i failed to mention. sorry. it fails i to set out that fujitsu could insert additionat — to set out that fujitsu could insert additional transaction data outside of transaction corrections doesn't it? , :, , and of transaction corrections doesn't it?_ and that - of transaction corrections doesn't it?_ and that that i it? yes, it does. and that that didn't require _ it? yes, it does. and that that didn't require the _ it? yes, it does. and that that didn't require the approval i it? yes, it does. and that that didn't require the approval orl didn't require the approval or knowledge of the sub—postmaster. it doesn't _ knowledge of the sub—postmaster. it doesn't say— knowledge of the sub—postmaster. it doesn't say that either, does it? no, it— doesn't say that either, does it? no, it doesn't. it doesn't say that either, does it? no, it doesn't.— doesn't say that either, does it? no, it doesn't. it failed to inform second site _ no, it doesn't. it failed to inform second site that _ no, it doesn't. it failed to inform second site that the _ no, it doesn't. it failed to inform second site that the post - no, it doesn't. it failed to inform second site that the post office l second site that the post office coutd _ second site that the post office could not— second site that the post office could not address the extent of any use of— could not address the extent of any use of remote access in legacy horizon. — use of remote access in legacy

horizon, which had been used for ten years, _ horizon, which had been used for ten years, because a detailed examination of archive data was needed — examination of archive data was needed and that would be costly and impractical. it doesn't say that, does _ impractical. it doesn't say that, does it? — impractical. it doesn't say that, does it? no, it doesn't. can you see why the _ does it? no, it doesn't. can you see why the two— does it? no, it doesn't. can you see why the two decided not to include those _ why the two decided not to include those pieces of information? | those pieces of information? i don't know. it those pieces of information? i don't know- it has — those pieces of information? i don't know- it has a _ those pieces of information? i don't know. it has a more _ those pieces of information? i don't know. it has a more detailed - those pieces of information? i don't know. it has a more detailed note l know. it has a more detailed note will follow. i don't know what further work and he expected to be done on this? just reading what we havejust gone through, done on this? just reading what we have just gone through, even though james davidson didn't mention balancing transaction by name, that is what i took from reading this. at the time, i wouldn't have known about a balancing transaction, i have learned about that subsequently, and a tutor been put into this. i think i have forward

this on as that is our position at the moment, exciting something else to follow, but i don't know what. the moment, exciting something else to follow, but i don't know what. do to follow, but i don't know what. do ou to follow, but i don't know what. do you agree that the answer that has been _ you agree that the answer that has been drafted by mr parsons, by comparison to the information provided — comparison to the information provided by fujitsu, is materially incomplete? provided by fu'itsu, is materially incomplete?— provided by fujitsu, is materially incomplete? yes. can we move on, lease? can we start with page two, please? we are _ can we start with page two, please? we are in— can we start with page two, please? we are in october 2014 now. if we 'ust we are in october 2014 now. if we just took— we are in october 2014 now. if we just took at— we are in october 2014 now. if we just look at the foot of page one to -et just look at the foot of page one to get the _ just look at the foot of page one to

get the context. an e—mail from jessica _ get the context. an e—mail from jessica parker to a wide—ranging peopte. — jessica parker to a wide—ranging people, including you. it is about one of— people, including you. it is about one of their— people, including you. it is about one of their cases that has been referred — one of their cases that has been referred to _ one of their cases that has been referred to mediation, yes? yes. second site _ referred to mediation, yes? yes. second site have _ referred to mediation, yes? yes. second site have released i referred to mediation, yes? yes. second site have released a i referred to mediation, yes? 193 second site have released a revised version _ second site have released a revised version of— second site have released a revised version of their draft crr. can you remember— version of their draft crr. can you remember what they are?- remember what they are? cursory re orts. remember what they are? cursory reports- it — remember what they are? cursory reports- it is _ remember what they are? cursory reports. it is essentially _ remember what they are? cursory reports. it is essentially a - remember what they are? cursory reports. it is essentially a draft i reports. it is essentially a draft of what they — reports. it is essentially a draft of what they propose _ reports. it is essentially a draft of what they propose to - reports. it is essentially a draft of what they propose to say i reports. it is essentially a draft i of what they propose to say about an individual _ of what they propose to say about an individual case, is that right? that's— individual case, is that right? that's correct.— individual case, is that right? that's correct. just read the rest ofthat that's correct. just read the rest of that to yourself _ that's correct. just read the rest of that to yourself because i that's correct. just read the rest of that to yourself because it i that's correct. just read the rest of that to yourself because it is l of that to yourself because it is not entirely material. if we go back to page _ not entirely material. if we go back to page one, please. middle of the

page _ to page one, please. middle of the page. belinda crowe, what role was she performing in late 2014? belinda was the programme _ she performing in late 2014? belinda was the programme director - she performing in late 2014? belinda was the programme director for i was the programme director for project sparrow, she also was the secretariat for the working group. the scheme working group. she asked a cuestion, the scheme working group. she asked a question. is — the scheme working group. she asked a question, is this _ the scheme working group. she asked a question, is this the _ the scheme working group. she asked a question, is this the first _ the scheme working group. she asked a question, is this the first crr - a question, is this the first crr which _ a question, is this the first crr which references remote access? i think— which references remote access? i think we _ which references remote access? i think we need to pick this up very robustly— think we need to pick this up very robustty in— think we need to pick this up very robustly in our response, as this could _ robustly in our response, as this could become public and second site appear— could become public and second site appear to _ could become public and second site appear to be looking for proof that something didn't happen. can we dust off our— something didn't happen. can we dust off our tines _ something didn't happen. can we dust off our lines on this? if we scroll up off our lines on this? if we scroll up the _ off our lines on this? if we scroll up the page, please? melanie corfietd, — up the page, please? melanie corfield, late 2014, what role she performing? she corfield, late 2014, what role she performing?— performing? she was part of the comms team- —

performing? she was part of the comms team. so _ performing? she was part of the comms team. so a _ performing? she was part of the comms team. so a media i performing? she was part of the comms team. so a media and i comms team. so a media and communications _ comms team. so a media and communications expert? i comms team. so a media and communications expert? or l communications expert? or professional?— communications expert? or professional?- she i communications expert? or professional? yes. she replies to the same groom _ professional? 193 she replies to the same group, including you, our current— the same group, including you, our current tine. — the same group, including you, our current line, if we are asked about remote _ current line, if we are asked about remote access to change branch data or transactions, remote access to change branch data ortransactions, is remote access to change branch data or transactions, is simply, remote access to change branch data ortransactions, is simply, this remote access to change branch data or transactions, is simply, this is not and — or transactions, is simply, this is not and never has been possible. you knew _ not and never has been possible. you knew that _ not and never has been possible. you knew that was false from multiple sources _ knew that was false from multiple sources by then, didn't you? yes, because what _ sources by then, didn't you? yes, because what we _ sources by then, didn't you? yes, because what we have _ sources by then, didn't you? yes, because what we have seen i sources by then, didn't you? 193 because what we have seen is injecting transactions, balancing transactions. taste injecting transactions, balancing transactions.— transactions. we have the 2010 e-mail that _ transactions. we have the 2010 e-mail that you _ transactions. we have the 2010 e-mail that you don't _ transactions. we have the 2010 e-mail that you don't recall, i transactions. we have the 2010| e-mail that you don't recall, the e—mail that you don't recall, the 20111 _ e—mail that you don't recall, the 20111 the — e—mail that you don't recall, the 2011, the early exchanges in april and may— 2011, the early exchanges in april and may 2014. that first statement, this is— and may 2014. that first statement, this is not— and may 2014. that first statement, this is not and has never been possible. _ this is not and has never been possible, is false? she this is not and has never been possible, is false?— this is not and has never been possible, is false? she is talking about changing _

possible, is false? she is talking about changing branch _ possible, is false? she is talking about changing branch data. i possible, is false? she is talking i about changing branch data. yeah, i think it is a stretch. i'm talking about inserting transactions. i'm not sure... that is what she says, change branch transactions. you wouldn't want _ change branch transactions. you wouldn't want a _ change branch transactions. you wouldn't want a post office line to dance _ wouldn't want a post office line to dance on — wouldn't want a post office line to dance on the head of a pin, would you? _ dance on the head of a pin, would you? no, — dance on the head of a pin, would you? no, i— dance on the head of a pin, would you? no, iwouldn't. which is dance on the head of a pin, would you? no, i wouldn't. which is what i you? no, iwouldn't. which is what i think— you? no, i wouldn't. which is what i think you _ you? no, i wouldn't. which is what i think you were doing a moment ago, contemplating the possibility that because _ contemplating the possibility that because this doesn't talk about injecting — because this doesn't talk about injecting new data... i�*m because this doesn't talk about injecting new data. . ._ injecting new data... i'm 'ust t in: to injecting new data... i'm 'ust trying to rationalised, i injecting new data... i'm just l trying to rationalised, because injecting new data... i'm just i trying to rationalised, because what we just talked about was the balancing transaction. it we just talked about was the balancing transaction. it continues, this line holds, _ balancing transaction. it continues, this line holds, but _ balancing transaction. it continues, this line holds, but if— balancing transaction. it continues, this line holds, but if we _ balancing transaction. it continues, this line holds, but if we are - this line holds, but if we are pressed _ this line holds, but if we are pressed regarding second sight's

points— pressed regarding second sight's points about admitting that promote access, _ points about admitting that promote access, we _ points about admitting that promote access, we can see there is no remote — access, we can see there is no remote access for individual branch transactions. you knew that was. from _ transactions. you knew that was. from multiple sources, didn't you? do you _ from multiple sources, didn't you? do you mind? james davidson e—mail, what it was on that? the do you mind? james davidson e-mail, what it was on that?— what it was on that? the davidson e-mail was _ what it was on that? the davidson e-mail was 9th _ what it was on that? the davidson e-mail was 9th of _ what it was on that? the davidson e-mail was 9th of may. _ what it was on that? the davidson e-mail was 9th of may. 2014? i what it was on that? the davidson i e-mail was 9th of may. 2014? yeah. sor , e-mail was 9th of may. 2014? yeah. sorry. your — e-mail was 9th of may. 2014? yeah. sorry, your original— e-mail was 9th of may. 2014? yeah. sorry, your original question - e—mail was 9th of may. 2214 yeah. sorry, your original question was, that was false? on the back of the e—mail from that was false? on the back of the e—mailfrom james davidson, i was clearly aware of that and i didn't pick this up. clearly aware of that and i didn't pick this up— pick this up. miss corfield continues, _ pick this up. miss corfield continues, we _ pick this up. miss corfield continues, we might i pick this up. miss corfield continues, we might get. pick this up. miss corfield i continues, we might get pushed further— continues, we might get pushed further on — continues, we might get pushed further on it and be asked by media to confirm — further on it and be asked by media to confirm whether or not there is any remote — to confirm whether or not there is any remote access. we will need to make _ any remote access. we will need to make the _ any remote access. we will need to make the distinction about access as straightforward as possible, suggesting there is no access for

individual— suggesting there is no access for individual transactions, fujitsu suggesting there is no access for individualtransactions, fujitsu has individual transactions, fujitsu has technical— individual transactions, fujitsu has technical access individualtransactions, fujitsu has technical access for updates, but could _ technical access for updates, but could not— technical access for updates, but could not be used for individual branch— could not be used for individual branch transactions. there is no facility— branch transactions. there is no facility at — branch transactions. there is no facility at all within the system for this — facility at all within the system for this. you knew that was full as well, _ for this. you knew that was full as well, didn't— for this. you knew that was full as well, didn't you? it for this. you knew that was full as well, didn't you?— well, didn't you? it didn't register with me at _ well, didn't you? it didn't register with me at the _ well, didn't you? it didn't register with me at the time, _ well, didn't you? it didn't register with me at the time, but - well, didn't you? it didn't register| with me at the time, but obviously from what we have discussed, this is incorrect in terms of the flow of information, yes. 50 incorrect in terms of the flow of information, yes.— incorrect in terms of the flow of information, yes. so the three lines which seem — information, yes. so the three lines which seem to _ information, yes. so the three lines which seem to be _ information, yes. so the three lines which seem to be a _ information, yes. so the three lines which seem to be a main _ information, yes. so the three lines which seem to be a main in - information, yes. so the three lines i which seem to be a main in paragraph one and. _ which seem to be a main in paragraph one and. if— which seem to be a main in paragraph one and, if pressed, i live in paragraph _ one and, if pressed, i live in paragraph two, and if really pushed, in paragraph three, all of them contain — in paragraph three, all of them contain statements which you knew to be futt _ contain statements which you knew to be full. : :, �* _, , be full. although i didn't recognise it at the time. _ be full. although i didn't recognise it at the time, yes. _ be full. although i didn't recognise it at the time, yes. -- _ be full. although i didn't recognise it at the time, yes. -- you - be full. although i didn't recognise it at the time, yes. -- you knew. be full. although i didn't recognisej it at the time, yes. -- you knew to it at the time, yes. —— you knew to be false.

it at the time, yes. -- you knew to be false. , , :, it at the time, yes. -- you knew to be false. , _, :, it at the time, yes. -- you knew to be false. , ,, :, . , it at the time, yes. -- you knew to be false. , _, :, . , :, be false. did you do anything to correct these _ be false. did you do anything to correct these full _ be false. did you do anything to correct these full slide - be false. did you do anything to correct these full slide is? i be false. did you do anything to correct these full slide is? -- i correct these full slide is? —— these — correct these full slide is? —— these false lines. my correct these full slide is? -- these false lines.— correct these full slide is? -- these false lines. my answer is that i don't remember. _ these false lines. my answer is that i don't remember. can _ these false lines. my answer is that i don't remember. can you - these false lines. my answer is that i don't remember. can you help i these false lines. my answer is that| i don't remember. can you help us? we have seen _ i don't remember. can you help us? we have seen a _ i don't remember. can you help us? we have seen a slew _ i don't remember. can you help us? we have seen a slew of _ i don't remember. can you help us? we have seen a slew of e-mails i i don't remember. can you help us? | we have seen a slew of e-mails now we have seen a slew of e—mails now that informs — we have seen a slew of e—mails now that informs you in one way or another— that informs you in one way or another of— that informs you in one way or another of the facility of fujitsu to remotely access individual transactions in branch accounts and change _ transactions in branch accounts and change them by inserting data. why woutdn't _ change them by inserting data. why wouldn't you put your hand up and say, hotd — wouldn't you put your hand up and say, hold on, this is all wrong? i 'ust say, hold on, this is all wrong? just can't say, hold on, this is all wrong? i just can't recall. to me, it couldn't have registered with me in

terms of the flow of information that had gone before. as i said, the messaging was constantly changing, but on the back of the james davidson e—mail, i think which had come from fujitsu, other information had come from within the business or from different sources, but that had come from fujitsu and therefore that, for me, should have been registering, notwithstanding the note that andy put together, but it should been registering that that was fujitsu with the same could happen, which was the balancing transaction. if happen, which was the balancing transaction-— transaction. if we scroll down a little bit. thank— transaction. if we scroll down a little bit. thank you. _ transaction. if we scroll down a little bit. thank you. belinda i transaction. if we scroll down a i little bit. thank you. belinda crowe says. _ little bit. thank you. belinda crowe says. i_ little bit. thank you. belinda crowe says. ithink— little bit. thank you. belinda crowe says, i think we need to pick this up, says, i think we need to pick this up. that— says, i think we need to pick this up. that is— says, i think we need to pick this up. that is a _ says, i think we need to pick this up, that is a suggestion of remote access. _ up, that is a suggestion of remote access. very— up, that is a suggestion of remote access, very robustly in our response. _ access, very robustly in our response, as this could become public — response, as this could become public is — response, as this could become public. is that the reason why you didn't— public. is that the reason why you didn't pick— public. is that the reason why you didn't pick any of this up and say,

hotd _ didn't pick any of this up and say, hold on. — didn't pick any of this up and say, hold on, there are three tempering macro— hold on, there are three tempering macro statements? the business wanted _ macro statements? the business wanted to— macro statements? the business wanted to respond robustly. | wanted to respond robustly. wouldn't wanted to respond robustly. i wouldn't have... if it had registered with me, i would have challenged it. because we had one of the applicants to the scheme, which is what has triggered all of this anyway, that was already in the public domain, because we were not openly in the public domain but we were dealing with that. if that is what our position should have been, we should have been saying that. i just must have missed it. you we should have been saying that. i just must have missed it.— just must have missed it. you and cuite a just must have missed it. you and quite a lot — just must have missed it. you and quite a lot of— just must have missed it. you and quite a lot of other _ just must have missed it. you and quite a lot of other people. in i quite a lot of other people. in terms quite a lot of other people. terms of quite a lot of other people. in terms of who else missed it? yeah. is it a case of everyone missing it, or is— is it a case of everyone missing it, or is it _ is it a case of everyone missing it, or is it that— is it a case of everyone missing it, or is it that the overriding objective is to defend, very

robustly, the position that there is no remote — robustly, the position that there is no remote access? that robustly, the position that there is no remote access?— robustly, the position that there is no remote access? that was never my osition. i no remote access? that was never my position- i came — no remote access? that was never my position. i came into _ no remote access? that was never my position. i came into the _ no remote access? that was never my position. i came into the scheme i position. i came into the scheme originally, at the start, to get under the skin of, was there any substance in the claims? i took that role on voluntarily along with the day job role on voluntarily along with the dayjob i was doing at the time because i wanted to understand. there is no way that, if i had thought there was something in that, that i would have... i was certainly not trying to cover up or suppress or do anything along those lines, and that is the bit i'm struggling with, because it wasn'tjust me, there are other people party to the same information at that point. thank you. that can come down. can we move _ thank you. that can come down. can we move forward to 2015, still dealing — we move forward to 2015, still dealing with remote access?

give me a moment while i catch up with my— give me a moment while i catch up with my paper. this is, as you can see at the top, a briefing — this is, as you can see at the top, a briefing for— this is, as you can see at the top, a briefing for you in relation to an internal— a briefing for you in relation to an internal film, for panorama. it relates, — internal film, for panorama. it relates, to _ internal film, for panorama. it relates, to give you some context, to the _ relates, to give you some context, to the bbc— relates, to give you some context, to the bbc panorama episode that was called _ to the bbc panorama episode that was

called trouble at the post office. that was — called trouble at the post office. that was eventually aired in august 2015 _ that was eventually aired in august 2015 the _ that was eventually aired in august 2015. the document itself isn't dated, — 2015. the document itself isn't dated, but it was sent to you by n1eit— dated, but it was sent to you by mail corfield by e—mail on the 18th ofjune _ mail corfield by e—mail on the 18th ofjune 2015. mail corfield by e-mail on the 18th ofjune 2015— ofjune 2015. ok. if we 'ust familiarise i ofjune 2015. ok. if we 'ust familiarise ourselves h ofjune 2015. ok. if wejust familiarise ourselves with l of june 2015. ok. if we just - familiarise ourselves with this, because i don't thing we have seen this before. because i don't thing we have seen this before-— this before. background, a film for use to deliver— this before. background, a film for use to deliver key _ this before. background, a film for use to deliver key messages - this before. background, a film for use to deliver key messages and i use to deliver key messages and facts _ use to deliver key messages and facts about allegations likely to be made _ facts about allegations likely to be made in _ facts about allegations likely to be made in the bbc panorama programme. supplemented by the full internal communications plan currently in development. although an internal film, development. although an internal film. it— development. although an internal film, it will be in public so available _ film, it will be in public so available to external audiences. there _ available to external audiences. there will— available to external audiences. there will be hard—hitting question and answer sessions. so this was

going _ and answer sessions. so this was going to — and answer sessions. so this was going to be — and answer sessions. so this was going to be a q&a where brunswick, the media, _ going to be a q&a where brunswick, the media, is put questions, hard—hitting questions to you, as you answer— hard—hitting questions to you, as you answer them? and this was intended — you answer them? and this was intended for internal consumption principally, yes chris and mark that was the _ principally, yes chris and mark that was the intention, yes. why will focus _ was the intention, yes. why will focus on — was the intention, yes. why will focus on rebuttals of accusations made _ focus on rebuttals of accusations made by— focus on rebuttals of accusations made by panorama, it will help reassure — made by panorama, it will help reassure people regarding the system and make _ reassure people regarding the system and make sure they are being kept well informed, including signposting to other— well informed, including signposting to other materials. we appreciate your guidance about the messaging for the _ your guidance about the messaging for the network on this subject. panorama, _ for the network on this subject. panorama, you will have seen the latest _ panorama, you will have seen the latest e—mail sent on friday, the theme _

latest e—mail sent on friday, the theme appears to be an allegation of a potential— theme appears to be an allegation of a potential miscarriage ofjustice or miscarriages ofjustice through inappropriate conduct by the post office, _ inappropriate conduct by the post office, especially regarding alleged pressure _ office, especially regarding alleged pressure on postmasters to plead guilty _ pressure on postmasters to plead guilty to _ pressure on postmasters to plead guilty to full counting, focusing on three _ guilty to full counting, focusing on three criminal cases, aspects of which _ three criminal cases, aspects of which they— three criminal cases, aspects of which they are likely to attempt to illustrate — which they are likely to attempt to illustrate white allegations, which will apply significant human interest. —— illustrate wider allegations. they are likely to refer — allegations. they are likely to refer heavily to second xi's inquiry throughout, they are lucky to have contributors who will cast doubt about _ contributors who will cast doubt about horizon through technical opinions, — about horizon through technical opinions, supposed revelations, but aspects— opinions, supposed revelations, but aspects of— opinions, supposed revelations, but aspects of the system highly likely to include at least one stunt in the

programme and could well be on the subject— programme and could well be on the subject of— programme and could well be on the subject of alleged remote access. indications are they will also be selectively its material that will be used — selectively its material that will be used out of context, likely to include — be used out of context, likely to include allegations that the post office _ include allegations that the post office is— include allegations that the post office is not from the mediation scheme — office is not from the mediation scheme fairly and has hampered it to avoid _ scheme fairly and has hampered it to avoid the _ scheme fairly and has hampered it to avoid the risk of compensation. i won't _ avoid the risk of compensation. i won't read — avoid the risk of compensation. i won't read the rest of that page. can we _ won't read the rest of that page. can we go— won't read the rest of that page. can we go to page three, please? the key messages. would you understand, these are _ key messages. would you understand, these are the key messages for you to get— these are the key messages for you to get out? — these are the key messages for you to get out? as these are the key messages for you to net out? a , these are the key messages for you to retout? a , , these are the key messages for you to get out?— to get out? as this is written, yes. number one. _ to get out? as this is written, yes. number one, this _ to get out? as this is written, yes. number one, this is _ to get out? as this is written, yes. number one, this is about - to get out? as this is written, yes. number one, this is about missing j number one, this is about missing money. _ number one, this is about missing money, which we have a duty to protect — money, which we have a duty to protect. trust is vital. we have a duty— protect. trust is vital. we have a duty to _ protect. trust is vital. we have a duty to protect their money in our branches~ — duty to protect their money in our branches~ if— duty to protect their money in our branches. if cash goes missing, and this is— branches. if cash goes missing, and this is covered up, we must investigate and act on this. we don't _ investigate and act on this. we don't prosecute people for making mistakes, — don't prosecute people for making mistakes, we never have and never

will. prosecutions are very rare and only in— will. prosecutions are very rare and only in the — will. prosecutions are very rare and only in the light of all available evidence — only in the light of all available evidence and circumstances. then the second _ evidence and circumstances. then the second key— evidence and circumstances. then the second key message. we do not control— second key message. we do not control the legal process. if we do prosecute. — control the legal process. if we do prosecute, this is done with numerous checks and balances, ultimately scrutinised by the courts themselves. we do not pressure anyone _ themselves. we do not pressure anyone regarding their plea to a charge — anyone regarding their plea to a charge. the decision to plead guilty or not— charge. the decision to plead guilty or not guilty is one for the defendant only, having taken advice. criminal— defendant only, having taken advice. criminal cases are kept under continual— criminal cases are kept under continual review, that is our absolute _ continual review, that is our absolute duty. in none of our investigations, northrough absolute duty. in none of our investigations, nor through that of the independent accountants, as any evidence _ the independent accountants, as any evidence emerged to show that any conviction— evidence emerged to show that any conviction was unsafe. it should not

be considered in any case. those messages, — be considered in any case. those messages, it is about stolen money, and we _ messages, it is about stolen money, and we the _ messages, it is about stolen money, and we the post office don't control the legal— and we the post office don't control the legal process, it is defence lawyers — the legal process, it is defence lawyers and the courts. did you understand in mid—2015 they were the key messages that the post office wished _ key messages that the post office wished to get out? | key messages that the post office wished to get out?— key messages that the post office wished to get out? i hadn't seen it ut wished to get out? i hadn't seen it put together _ wished to get out? i hadn't seen it put together in _ wished to get out? i hadn't seen it put together in one _ wished to get out? i hadn't seen it put together in one place, - wished to get out? i hadn't seen it put together in one place, but - wished to get out? i hadn't seen it | put together in one place, but given that this was put together as a briefing document for me, then yes. the third key message is, there is nothing _ the third key message is, there is nothing wrong with the computer system — nothing wrong with the computer system. before i ask you about that, can we _ system. before i ask you about that, can we scroll— system. before i ask you about that, can we scroll up, please? and again. this is— can we scroll up, please? and again. this is all— can we scroll up, please? and again. this is all about missing money that we have _ this is all about missing money that we have a _ this is all about missing money that we have a duty to protect. we heard evidence _ we have a duty to protect. we heard evidence earlier this week from susan _ evidence earlier this week from susan crichton, the general counsel of the _

susan crichton, the general counsel of the post— susan crichton, the general counsel of the post office, and she told the chairman _ of the post office, and she told the chairman that you were amongst a group _ chairman that you were amongst a group of— chairman that you were amongst a group of people who had been in the post office _ group of people who had been in the post office for a very long time, who held — post office for a very long time, who held the view that this was public— who held the view that this was public money that was being stolen, it needed _ public money that was being stolen, it needed to be protected and it needed — it needed to be protected and it needed to be recovered through prosecutions. is that correct? in terms prosecutions. is that correct? terms of prosecutions. is that correct? in terms of taxpayer money, i was always made aware that it was taxpayer money when i came into the post office, so that was a consideration. therefore we had a duty to protect it and make sure that we have the right checks in place. recovery through prosecution, that would not have been on my radar at all. from an operational perspective, it was about having the consideration that it was taxpayer money, notjust in the context of sub—postmasters as a business as a

whole. m5 sub-postmasters as a business as a whole. ~ , . ., whole. ms crichton held the view that there was _ whole. ms crichton held the view that there was a _ whole. ms crichton held the view that there was a group _ whole. ms crichton held the view that there was a group of - whole. ms crichton held the view that there was a group of people | whole. ms crichton held the view - that there was a group of people who were particularly long serving, including — were particularly long serving, including you, that emphasised this point, _ including you, that emphasised this point, ratherthan itjust including you, that emphasised this point, rather than itjust being a factor— point, rather than itjust being a factor or— point, rather than itjust being a factor or matter, as you have described _ factor or matter, as you have described it today, that is part of the background. is it something you emphasised, that it is public money that you _ emphasised, that it is public money that you have a duty to protect? no, i never that you have a duty to protect? firm. i never remember doing that. i have beenin i never remember doing that. i have been in the business for a long time, i started working in branch and it was always part of the consideration that we were in that kozai state where we were required to make a profit as well. we should have consideration for taxpayer money, but not as if it was a real emphasis against anything else. it wasn't the be all and end all, it

wasn't the be all and end all, it was a consideration, and i don't remember ever emphasising that to susan or anybody else. kevin was network, he had been in the business longer than me, actually, and they would be other people in the network that would have been as long as me or longer. i don't remember it ever being emphasised, but it was a consideration.— being emphasised, but it was a consideration. �* ., consideration. there wasn't a cabal of iona consideration. there wasn't a cabal of long serving. — consideration. there wasn't a cabal of long serving. up _ consideration. there wasn't a cabal of long serving, up through - consideration. there wasn't a cabal of long serving, up through the - of long serving, up through the ranks. — of long serving, up through the ranks, started off as counter clerks or similar— ranks, started off as counter clerks or similar who held the belief that it was— or similar who held the belief that it was sub—postmasters with a hand in the _ it was sub—postmasters with a hand in the till? — it was sub—postmasters with a hand in the till? we it was sub-postmasters with a hand in the till? ~ ., in the till? we will leave the in . ui in the till? we will leave the inquiry that. _ in the till? we will leave the inquiry that, with _ in the till? we will leave the inquiry that, with the - in the till? we will leave the inquiry that, with the key i in the till? we will leave the - inquiry that, with the key executive during the scandal giving evidence this morning. between 1999 and 2015, more than 900 sub—postmasters were

prosecuted because the horizon scheme made it appear as if money was missing. she recalled an e—mail revealed that in 2010. she also said that she was sorry about what had happened, she said this morning she was truly sorry for the devastation caused to you, your family and friends, she said with the sub—postmasters, but she didn't knowingly do anything wrong, was the tenor of her evidence is morning. do stay with us, you can catch up with the inquiry by using the button on the inquiry by using the button on the screen. time for the 1pm use. goodbye.

today at one: one of the most senior bosses at the post office apologises to victims of the horizon it scandal. angela van den bogerd tells the public inquiry she never knowingly did anything wrong. i do want to say to everyone impacted by wrongful convictions and wrongful contract terminations that i am truly, truly sorry for the devastation caused to you, your family and friends. power sharing in scotland collapses the first minister says the snp's deal with the green party is over. the biggest rail overhaul in a generation. labour says it'll renationalise most passenger services if it wins the general election. and, history makers: meet the british sailors who are the first all—female crew to win a round—the—world yacht race.

on bbc london, withjust a week to go until londoners vote