into the night — they are still going now — and maybe into the early hours, it's the latest, the last showdown between mps and peers over the government's rwanda bill, but it is expected to be passed tonight. stay with us for live coverage. the stand—off continues — peers sent the safety of rwanda bill back to the commons for a fifth time where mps are voting. today the prime minister

was in determined mood. he now says "multiple" flights to rwanda will take off thisjuly. if that happens, will they act as a deterrent? and what will all this do for rishi sunak�*s electoral fortunes? we'll ask this conservative and our newsnight panel are here too. could there be a summer election even if flights do take off? donald trump on day one of his trial in new york accused of covering up hush money paid to adult film star stormy daniels. it's the first time a us president — current orformer — has faced a criminal trial. good evening. it could be a long night for mps in the house of commons and peers in the house of lords, because of the latest stand—off over the government's rwanda bill. but it is expected to clear its final parliamentary hurdle in the early hours. the ping pong will end. and when it does, rishi sunak claims this will then happen immediately. starting from the moment the bill passes, we will begin the process of removing those identified

for the first flight. cat was at a press conference earlier in anticipation of the bill being passed. he claimed the "drumbeat" of multiple flights each month would begin in ten to 12 weeks — sojuly — the summer — definitely not the spring which he'd previously promised. he blamed the delay on "labour peers in the house of lords". labour say the government were trying to make "grubby political capital out of a delay". let's talk to nick who's at westminster. what's happening? as you said, mps are voting right now on the last house of lords amendment we have on this, when we started out with ten and we now have one. this is the lord hope amendment and the lord and as an amendment which would oblige the government in future to consult with a monitoring body on declaring rwanda a safe country and we expect that vote in the next few minutes and of course

the next few minutes and of course the government will win that vote pulled it will then go down to the house of lords and peers are expected to start considering that at 11:30pm. ithink expected to start considering that at 11:30pm. i think it is lord shot at 11:30pm. i think it is lord shot a batsman who will say this is why mps decided to overturn this —— lord sharp of epsom. it is only expected to take a few minutes because it is not expected at that time that there will be any amendments, any more amendments from the house of lords going back to the house of commons and that means at about 11:30pm it will mean that the bill will have passed its final parliamentary hurdles and it can then go to the king for royal assent. we have the numbers of the vote in the last few minutes in the house of commons, it is ayes 321, noes 217, so a majority of 75 is can go back to the lords

but you got the impression this afternoon that the labour party was not exactly spoiling for a massive fight with the government. lord des browne, the former labour defence secretary, threw in the towel on exempting afghan veterans from the scheme he would say not quite throwing in the towel but that he got a concession from the government, the government talking about how it would have a review and about how it would have a review and a reassessment. he thinks that's a big move from the government so that is where we are right now. thank ou. is where we are right now. thank yom willingly — is where we are right now. thank you. willingly explained - is where we are right now. thank you. willingly explained as - is where we are right now. thank i you. willingly explained as always. what does this mean in terms of the wider politics?— wider politics? where we are with the politics _ wider politics? where we are with the politics is _ wider politics? where we are with the politics is rishi _ wider politics? where we are with the politics is rishi sunak- wider politics? where we are with the politics is rishi sunak is - the politics is rishi sunak is absolutely determined to get this on the statute book —— brilliantly explained. he said at his press conference earlier that the moment it becomes law it takes about ten to 12 weeks for flights to take off which is pretty much exactly what we reported last week, and he is saying that what you will then have is a choice before the british people

later this year, he said, which suggests he is still thinking of an autumn election, a choice between the conservative party that is offering to start the flights and stop the boats and the labour party, he says, that has no plan. labour say they do have a plan but it's not your plan because we don't think the flights will work. what labour are talking about is going upstream, after the people smugglers, using counterterrorism legislation to go after them, counterterrorism legislation to go afterthem, using counterterrorism legislation to go after them, using intelligence to go over those european countries where the boats are made and go after them and break the people smugglers. that is how the debate will probably be framed in the election, whenever it is. ., ~' , ., framed in the election, whenever it is. ., ~' framed in the election, whenever it is. thank you, you will be back with us to update _ is. thank you, you will be back with us to update our— is. thank you, you will be back with us to update our audience - is. thank you, you will be back with us to update our audience and - is. thank you, you will be back with us to update our audience and we l us to update our audience and we will talk to various politicians in the commons but as you can see, a little busy right now. we will get them and we can. we may be just hours away from the rwanda bill clearing its final parliamentary hurdle

but�*s been some time in the making. it's two years since boris johnson first went public with his rwanda plan. will it work? sima's at the wall. it was in 2022 when the then prime minister borisjohnson announced his plan that anybody who was to arrive here illegally would be sent to rwanda, 4,000 miles away. but so far, no flights have taken off, and people have continued to arrive in the uk by small boats, making the perilous 20—mile journey across the channel. figures show more than 29,000 people arrived this way last year, a fall from the previous year. however, the first three months of 2024 had the highest number of crossings for this time of year. given the numbers crossing usually increases as the weather improves, those figures suggest we could be headed for another busy year. rishi sunak made stopping the boats one of his five priorities, saying today, "we are in a battle with callous, sophisticated and global criminal gangs" who encourage people to make the life—risking trip for cash.

critics say his plan is cruel and unworkable. ending free movement and taking back control of britain's borders was a major factor that led to the 2016 vote to leave the eu. the government wants to maintain the support of the red wall, many of whom voted to leave. and then there's the cost of keeping migrants in hotels and other accommodation while they wait for their asylum applications to be processed. it's costing around £8 million per day. the pm had said flights to rwanda would take off this spring, after they were blocked two years ago by european judges. that was followed by the uk supreme court upholding a ruling that the scheme was unlawful over fears migrants could be sent back to their country of origin where they could be treated badly. but today mr sunak said it would be ten to 12 weeks before the flights take off, blaming his opponents for the delay. some have questioned the safety of rwanda.

0thers whether the numbers being sent will be enough to make a difference. the available evidence suggests that asylum deterrence policies of this kind do not have a big deterrent impact. but fundamentally, the deterrent effect of this policy will depend on how many people are sent to rwanda. if that number is sufficiently large, and you have to know it would have to be quite large, then that might make people think twice before getting on a small boat. the prime minister said an airfield was on standby and commercial planes had been booked to get the first flights off. but a home office source told us the backlog of asylum applications is already immense, saying, "i'm sure there will be many legal challenges ahead, with many of those scheduled for removal claiming mental illness to delay removal." rishi sunak announced he will free up 25 courtrooms and 150 judges to help process rwanda cases but with crown and magistrates courts already facing significant backlogs,

it's not clear where these resources will come from. the pm says success is when the boats have been stopped. he says 200 dedicated caseworkers have been trained to process claims quickly — something a home office source told us would mean other areas of asylum being compromised. let's talk live to conservative mp kieran mullan who is a parliamentary private secretary at the home office. thank you for talking to us, i know it is a busy evening. it is set to pass tonight, finally, royal assent potentially within days so why will it take three months to get a plane taking off? i it take three months to get a plane takin: off? ~ , taking off? i think the first thing to focus on _ taking off? i think the first thing to focus on is _ taking off? i think the first thing to focus on is that _ taking off? i think the first thing to focus on is that this _ taking off? i think the first thing i to focus on is that this government is absolutely determined to deliver on this policy because we know it is what the british people want us to do and importantly, it's the right thing to do. at the minute, people smugglers are determining our asylum policy and whatever you feel about

the validity of claims and the role we should play in the world, i don't think anyone thinks we should be the ones deciding who comes here and seek asylum. i'm not privy to the detail of negotiations of how the flights will work and when they will go off but i think everyone will see from this evening that we are determined to get this policy through an operational as soon as possible. we through an operational as soon as ossible. ~ ~' ., through an operational as soon as ossible. ~

reverse it. i notice you say i hope we will get it working _ reverse it. i notice you say i hope we will get it working but - reverse it. i notice you say i hope we will get it working but what i reverse it. i notice you say i hope we will get it working but what if| we will get it working but what if flights take off and the boats continue to come this summer? i think if we look at examples like albania, where we made it crystal clear that only the most exceptional claims from albania would be successful, we sought more than a 90% drop people making that crossing. we can look at what they did in australia where they a similar policy and they saw a huge decrease in the number of people making crossings so i think there's every reason to believe the policy will work which is why i voted for it and i support it and for those who oppose it, what is the answer? we will ask them, don't worry. 0n the albania example, which is regularly mentioned by politicians like yourself and indeed the prime minister, he said the day, rishi sunak, 90% of illegal albanian migrants, they have reduced illegal albanian migration by 90% which means 10% still comes as a boats still come with albanians despite a return agreement with their own country. i return agreement with their own count . ~ , ., , return agreement with their own count . ~ , .,

country. i think if you sit to the british public, do _ country. i think if you sit to the british public, do you - country. i think if you sit to the british public, do you want - country. i think if you sit to the british public, do you want us i country. i think if you sit to the | british public, do you want us to put in place a policy that will do at least 90% drop of tackling the problem, or carrying on with a labour policy of doing nothing really credible to tackle it, i'm pretty sure who they will support. that wasn't a question i asked you, i'm asking you... ll} that wasn't a question i asked you, i'm asking vom - -— i'm asking you... 20 we can't guarantee — i'm asking you... 20 we can't guarantee a _ i'm asking you... 20 we can't guarantee a policy _ i'm asking you... 20 we can't guarantee a policy is - i'm asking you... 20 we can't i guarantee a policy is absolutely perfect, then we shouldn't do it, that's not my approach. i was not suggesting _ that's not my approach. i was not suggesting that _ that's not my approach. i was not suggesting that either. _ that's not my approach. i was not suggesting that either. let - that's not my approach. i was not suggesting that either. let me i that's not my approach. i was notl suggesting that either. let me tell you what i was meaning. you say it will work because it will be a deterrent, i'm saying you have an albanian agreement in place and still 10% of albanians come across the channel on a small boat which suggests that even if flights take off to rwanda, it will not stop all the boats and that was a promise from the prime is to. i the boats and that was a promise from the prime is to.— the boats and that was a promise from the prime is to. i think what the rime from the prime is to. i think what the prime ministers— from the prime is to. i think what the prime ministers are - from the prime is to. i think what i the prime ministers are determined to do is do everything we possibly can to manage the problem and you said that if we can't get a perfect policy, we shouldn't be doing this... i policy, we shouldn't be doing this... �* , policy, we shouldn't be doing this... �* ., policy, we shouldn't be doing i this. . ._ we are this... i didn't say that. we are determined _ this... i didn't say that. we are determined to _ this. .. i didn't say that. we are determined to deliver- this... i didn't say that. we are determined to deliver on i

this... i didn't say that. we are determined to deliver on this, | this... i didn't say that. we are i determined to deliver on this, the labour party are opposed because they don't get peoples attitude that we can't have people smugglers determining who comes and has asylum in the country. determining who comes and has asylum in the country-— in the country. can you still hear me? just about. _ in the country. can you still hear me? just about. are you - in the country. can you still hear. me? just about. are you expecting eo - le me? just about. are you expecting peeple being _ me? just about. are you expecting people being deported _ me? just about. are you expecting people being deported to - me? just about. are you expecting | people being deported to physically resist? the people being deported to physically resist? ., people being deported to physically resist? . ., ., resist? the are the normal procedures _ resist? the are the normal procedures in _ resist? the are the normal procedures in place - resist? the are the normal procedures in place when i resist? the are the normal| procedures in place when it resist? the are the normal- procedures in place when it comes resist? the are the normal— procedures in place when it comes to deporting people and that you will find on occasions people do physically resist i don't think the british public should have the measure of our asylum policy, whether or not someone resist deportation. there is a legal order for someone to be deported and we should do what we ordinarily do to ensure that is enforced. xyour should do what we ordinarily do to ensure that is enforced. your deputy forei . n ensure that is enforced. your deputy foreign secretary _ ensure that is enforced. your deputy foreign secretary two _ ensure that is enforced. your deputy foreign secretary two mega - ensure that is enforced. your deputy foreign secretary two mega years i foreign secretary two mega years ago, andrew mitchell, a backbencher at the time, said those being deported will physically resist, they will superglue themselves to structures. the international media will share picks is a british official forcing desperate people genuinely seeking asylum onto planes

reluctant detainees on board will be manacled and handcuffed to avoid in—flight dangers. are you prepared for that? in-flight dangers. are you prepared for that? ., ., ., _ in-flight dangers. are you prepared forthat? ., ., ., , for that? there are no easy options when it comes _ for that? there are no easy options when it comes to _ for that? there are no easy options when it comes to this _ for that? there are no easy options when it comes to this issue. - for that? there are no easy options when it comes to this issue. what i j when it comes to this issue. what i prepared for is that we have set up and made arrangements for people to be housed in rwanda, looked after them with access to health care, help to find work and all those things you would compassionately want to be in place for asylum seekers. if the answer to question is you use force to do this is no, you can't have an effective asylum policy i think the british public would expect us to act decisively when it comes to enacting local decisions to deport someone. as i said, labourwrite decisions to deport someone. as i said, labour write letters opposing this, deporting convicted belong criminal so don't expect to make them tough choices but we will. 50 them tough choices but we will. so force is ok with you? as _ them tough choices but we will. so force is ok with you? as i - them tough choices but we will. so force is ok with you? as i said, i them tough choices but we will. so force is ok with you? as i said, if. force is ok with you? as i said, if ou have force is ok with you? as i said, if you have a _ force is ok with you? as i said, if you have a deportation _ force is ok with you? as i said, if you have a deportation policy, i force is ok with you? as i said, if you have a deportation policy, ifl you have a deportation policy, if you have a deportation policy, if you aren't is that if the book was that if you don't deport them, you can't have an effective deportation policy of any kind. are we really think that convicted criminals that are due to be deported, if they say

i'm not leaving, they canjust are due to be deported, if they say i'm not leaving, they can just get to stay question but it's a nonsensical point.- to stay question but it's a nonsensical point. the trimester announced _ nonsensical point. the trimester announced there _ nonsensical point. the trimester announced there would - nonsensical point. the trimester announced there would be i nonsensical point. the trimester announced there would be 25 i nonsensical point. the trimester. announced there would be 25 court rooms, 150 judges who could provide over 5000 sitting days to deal with legal challenges —— the prime minister announced. legal challenges —— the prime ministerannounced. how legal challenges —— the prime minister announced. how many are you expecting? it’s minister announced. how many are you exectina? v , minister announced. how many are you exectina? �*, , ., , expecting? it's better to be prepared- _ expecting? it's better to be prepared. that's _ expecting? it's better to be prepared. that's a - expecting? it's better to be prepared. that's a lot i expecting? it's better to be prepared. that's a lot of i expecting? it's better to be i prepared. that's a lot ofjudges. i prepared. that's a lot of 'udges. i ho -e prepared. that's a lot of 'udges. i hope people i prepared. that's a lot of 'udges. i hope people take h prepared. that's a lot of 'udges. i hope people take the i prepared. that's a lot ofjudges. i hope people take the clear- prepared. that's a lot ofjudges. i i hope people take the clear message from the policy that we don't want people to make that illegal crossings and expect to stay here and they will act accordingly. if some people don't, of course it's what we are prepared. the pack that ou have what we are prepared. the pack that you have magically _ what we are prepared. the pack that you have magically found 150 - what we are prepared. the pack that you have magically found 150 judgesj you have magically found 150 judges and 25 court rooms and might be able to offer 5000 sitting days, perhaps tells us when we have such a backlog that it tells us when we have such a backlog thatitis tells us when we have such a backlog that it is a priority for you to send asylum seekers to rwanda, more of a priority over trying alleged rapist? of a priority over trying alleged raist? ., ., , ., ., rapist? immigration 'udges are not the 'udaes rapist? immigration 'udges are not the judges that — rapist? immigration 'udges are not the judges that try i rapist? immigrationjudges are not the judges that try criminal - rapist? immigrationjudges are not the judges that try criminal courts, the judges that try criminal courts, the criminal court space is not the

same court space used for immigration tribunal is and i don't think it's an either or, we have shown repeatedly that we are willing to take tougher action when it comes to take tougher action when it comes to the worst and most violent offenders. to the worst and most violent offenders-— to the worst and most violent offenders. ., u, �* u, offenders. you can't get the medical room, can offenders. you can't get the medical room. can you? _ offenders. you can't get the medical room, can you? you _ offenders. you can't get the medical room, can you? you are _ offenders. you can't get the medical room, can you? you are right - offenders. you can't get the medical room, can you? you are right to i offenders. you can't get the medical room, can you? you are right to say| room, can you? you are right to say that after the _ room, can you? you are right to say that after the pandemic _ room, can you? you are right to say that after the pandemic we - room, can you? you are right to say that after the pandemic we faced i room, can you? you are right to say that after the pandemic we faced a i that after the pandemic we faced a significant backlog in court space, unprecedented investment has gone into the justice system in order to correct that and if part of that investment is also delivering on an important priority for the british public, i think it's right we do it. thank you for talking to us tonight. let's hear from our panel. i'm joined by times radio broadcaster ayesha hazarika — soon to be introduced to the house of lords as a labour peer — and political correspondent at the spectatorjames heale. you are not in the lords, because you have not been introduced yet. it happens in two weeks' time. i am

here tonight. happens in two weeks' time. i am here tonight-— happens in two weeks' time. i am here tonight. happens in two weeks' time. i am heretoniht. , ., ., , ., here tonight. james heale, how big a moment is the _ here tonight. james heale, how big a moment is the minister? _ here tonight. james heale, how big a moment is the minister? it _ here tonight. james heale, how big a moment is the minister? it is - here tonight. james heale, how big a moment is the minister? it is a i here tonight. james heale, how big a moment is the minister? it is a big i moment is the minister? it is a big limit, we will _ moment is the minister? it is a big limit, we will see _ moment is the minister? it is a big limit, we will see whether - moment is the minister? it is a big limit, we will see whether he i moment is the minister? it is a big limit, we will see whether he has i moment is the minister? it is a big j limit, we will see whether he has a majority— limit, we will see whether he has a majority in — limit, we will see whether he has a majority in the house of commons into the _ majority in the house of commons into the kind of difficult world, the grey— into the kind of difficult world, the grey zone of legal challenges at what they will look like and that is why the _ what they will look like and that is why the next few weeks is crucial and that's— why the next few weeks is crucial and that's why this morning the prime _ and that's why this morning the prime minister was doing a press where _ prime minister was doing a press where he — prime minister was doing a press where he set the framing for the next _ where he set the framing for the next three — where he set the framing for the next three months or so, i'm convinced _ next three months or so, i'm convinced people inside and outside parliament that he has got a plan to -et parliament that he has got a plan to get through those three months. do get through those three months. div: you get through those three months. you think get through those three months. drr you think there will be a number of legal challenges? i you think there will be a number of legal challenges?— legal challenges? i feel there will be, and legal challenges? i feel there will be. and the _ legal challenges? i feel there will be, and the press _ legal challenges? i feel there will be, and the press conference i legal challenges? i feel there will i be, and the press conference today was not so much a message to people at home you are very concerned about immigration, this was a party management strategy, sending a signal to those backbenchers who were unhappy with the prime minister, facing very difficult local elections on may the 2nd. it felt like it was a message to his detractors saying, do not come for me after the may local elections.

i'm going to get the rwanda bill through, let's see what happens in june and july. he mentioned this rhythm of flights taking off. that felt like political management strategy, a kind of save my skin strategy, a kind of save my skin strategy, to say, hold off, let's not have a leadership challenge, and also, a big signal to say i'm not going to have a summer election stopped i want to have something to talk about over the summer. there is speculation. — talk about over the summer. there is speculation, james _ talk about over the summer. there is speculation, james heale, _ talk about over the summer. there is speculation, james heale, that i talk about over the summer. there is speculation, james heale, that there | speculation, james heale, that there could be a summer election because the boats problem could get worse evenif the boats problem could get worse even if some flights take off. ii even if some flights take off. if you look at what conservatives are talking _ you look at what conservatives are talking about right now it is difficult _ talking about right now it is difficult to say you are 20 points behind _ difficult to say you are 20 points behind in — difficult to say you are 20 points behind in the polls, at least get this up— behind in the polls, at least get this up and running and having a rolling _ this up and running and having a rolling programme of flights is key to an _ rolling programme of flights is key to an election message which is going _ to an election message which is going to — to an election message which is going to be you want it up and running — going to be you want it up and running because then it is labour being _ running because then it is labour being asked, do you want to stop these _ being asked, do you want to stop these apparently successful flights and that'll be the real challenge in the campaign it needs some time to

show— the campaign it needs some time to show that— the campaign it needs some time to show that it — the campaign it needs some time to show that it is working and that is when _ show that it is working and that is when you — show that it is working and that is when you will have a campaign based around _ when you will have a campaign based around that— when you will have a campaign based around that and other things as welt _ around that and other things as well. ~ ., ., , ., well. we hear conservative politicians— well. we hear conservative politicians say _ well. we hear conservative politicians say that - well. we hear conservative politicians say that labourl politicians say that labour politicians say that labour politicians do not have a plan but what we do know is that sir keir starmer has said even if the rwanda flights are working, the plan is working, even if it is deterring people in small boats, he will scrap it. if labour do win the next election, will he really scrap it, if it is working? i5 election, will he really scrap it, if it is working?— if it is working? is a big if is if it is working. _ if it is working? is a big if is if it is working. if _ if it is working? is a big if is if it is working. if some magic i if it is working? is a big if is if i it is working. if some magic happens and his bouts. i remember the language rishi sunak used was very tough, very binary, it is not about reducing are significantly reducing the boats, it is a hard stop, stopping all of the boats, so let's see if this plan works, but i don't think it will. whoever wins the next general election, of course the polls are looking good for labour, this is going to be an issue, of course. the problem of the small boats crossings are serious and

nobody should say that they are not. people in the country are worried about them. it is one thing to have about them. it is one thing to have a plan, and laboursaid it has things that it wants to spend more time is going after the gangs and working with other countries and put much more money into dealing with the backlog, but, what rishi sunak has decided to do is something which is very performative. it is a massive sort of gimmick, and it is wildly expensive as well. and the problem for him is that yes, this is an issue that people care about, immigration, but people are so kind of cynical about this rwanda scheme now, nobody thinks it is going to magically stop all of the problems. it is so wildly expensive, it is mind—bending leeway there is a policy as well, and the housing estate bachelor brother on the back to visit, we now learn that they sold off a huge part of those

houses, to local people. so i don't think anybody really has great faith in this scheme.— in this scheme. what is striking is how the language _ in this scheme. what is striking is how the language has _ in this scheme. what is striking is how the language has changed in| in this scheme. what is striking is i how the language has changed in the past two _ how the language has changed in the past two years, since james cleverly became _ past two years, since james cleverly became home secretary, it is more rwanda _ became home secretary, it is more rwanda is _ became home secretary, it is more rwanda is one tool in the tool box and that _ rwanda is one tool in the tool box and that is— rwanda is one tool in the tool box and that is why they are keen to stress things about having agreements with albania, and if you talk to— agreements with albania, and if you talk to lots— agreements with albania, and if you talk to lots of mps they say that we have to _ talk to lots of mps they say that we have to make sure this is a european wide element, not everyone is coming to britain— wide element, not everyone is coming to britain and if you look at the bulk— to britain and if you look at the bulk of— to britain and if you look at the bulk of the boats crossing to italy, they are _ bulk of the boats crossing to italy, they are under quite a hard right leader. — they are under quite a hard right leader, giorgia meloni, as leaders are stressing the european dimension can help _ are stressing the european dimension can help the conservatives as much as he _ can help the conservatives as much as he a _ can help the conservatives as much as be a hindrance.— as be a hindrance. we will talk to ou more as be a hindrance. we will talk to you more at _ as be a hindrance. we will talk to you more at the _ as be a hindrance. we will talk to you more at the moment. -- in i as be a hindrance. we will talk to you more at the moment. -- in a you more at the moment. —— in a moment. let's talk live to former justice secretary, conservative mp sir robert buckland, who has voted against the government tonight and for some of those lords amendments.

good evening. my understanding is, please correct me if i'm wrong, you voted for the amendment to create a process for rwanda's safe status to be kept under review by the independent monitoring committee. why don't you trust your own government's reassurances on that? it was very important that we use this opportunity and legislation, not only to make sure that these provisions were used in a way that was consistent with the reality that rwanda was a safe place and that they did everything they said they were going to do under the treaty, but also if in the future rwanda became unsafe, if there was a change in circumstances, there would be a mechanism for parliament to deal with it. it seems that the government, if there is to be a change in future there will have to be a separate piece of legislation. i don't think that is desirable. where i think we are now is that we are facing a fifth round of ping pong. i think it is time that the

lords accepted that however good this argument is, it is time for the elected house to prevail. that is what i've said in the chamber and what i've said in the chamber and what i've said in the chamber and what i hope there will happen so we can concentrate not on the process in parliament but whether or not the scheme will work. you in parliament but whether or not the scheme will work.— scheme will work. you think it will? i think it scheme will work. you think it will? i think it can- _ scheme will work. you think it will? i think it can. i — scheme will work. you think it will? | think it can. |think_ scheme will work. you think it will? | think it can. | think that _ scheme will work. you think it will? | think it can. | think that the - i think it can. i think that the scale of provision in terms of making sure that the courts are ready to deal with any challenge, and the timescale that the prime minister has set 12 weeks also seems to me to be realistic. i think that it is right to say that rwanda is only one of a series of policies to deal with the challenges facing not just us, but the whole of the west and it is important to remember that, the government is prepared to be innovative and take leadership on an issue that is taking other countries in this direction as well, other european countries want to do the same, and i think it is right that we innovate in this way. £th

that we innovate in this way. can you clarify. _ that we innovate in this way. can you clarify, kieran _ that we innovate in this way. can you clarify, kieran mullan who we were talking to a moment ago, a fellow backbench mp, said the 150 judges that have been found by rishi sunak to hear legal challenges are different from judges that would sit in crown court cases. is that right, i'm asking you as a formerjustice secretary? i i'm asking you as a formerjustice secretary?— i'm asking you as a formerjustice secretary? i don't know the detail but i secretary? i don't know the detail but i would _ secretary? i don't know the detail but i would imagine _ secretary? i don't know the detail but i would imagine the _ secretary? i don't know the detail but i would imagine the judges i but i would imagine the judges hearing the cases would be people who have adequate training and the expertise needed. 0urjudges are very adaptable. we have a large cadre ofjudges dealing with this anyway and i'm sure that the primers that would not have announced that if the preparation had not been done tjy if the preparation had not been done by the tribunal service so that will be what has happened. the primers are once again has shown that he is getting his sleeves rolled up, as he did with the albania deal which made such a difference to the nature and quality of albanian numbers in the

last year. quality of albanian numbers in the last ear. ., , ., last year. that is what prime minister should _ last year. that is what prime minister should do, - last year. that is what prime minister should do, isn't i last year. that is what prime minister should do, isn't it? | minister should do, isn't it? absolutely but the point i'm making is that this is a prime minister that does the detail, who is prepared to really get into the weeds, sometimes. to show that you do need that attention to detail on in that issue. in do need that attention to detail on in that issue-— in that issue. in terms of attention to detail it was _ in that issue. in terms of attention to detail it was in _ in that issue. in terms of attention to detail it was in november- in that issue. in terms of attention to detail it was in november that i to detail it was in november that five supreme courtjustices stated that rwanda was not safe for asylum seekers. is it now? the that rwanda was not safe for asylum seekers. is it now?— seekers. is it now? the 'udges then were tookhg — seekers. is it now? the 'udges then were tookhg at h seekers. is it now? the 'udges then were looking at the i seekers. is it now? the judges then were looking at the situation - seekers. is it now? the judges then were looking at the situation as i seekers. is it now? the judges then were looking at the situation as it i were looking at the situation as it applied back in the summer of 2022 when the new policy had been announced and things have moved on significantly. we saw notjust a treaty being agreed in november, but also... ., , ., treaty being agreed in november, but also... ., , ,, ., treaty being agreed in november, but also... ,, ., ,, ., , also... even last week, lord sharp s-teakin also... even last week, lord sharp speaking on _ also... even last week, lord sharp speaking on behalf _ also... even last week, lord sharp speaking on behalf of _ also... even last week, lord sharp speaking on behalf of the - speaking on behalf of the government in the lords said it was a work in progress from the band that was my point of view. pond progress from the band that was my point of view-— point of view. and we will be hoping to make sure _ point of view. and we will be hoping to make sure that all _ point of view. and we will be hoping to make sure that all of _ point of view. and we will be hoping to make sure that all of the - point of view. and we will be hoping to make sure that all of the process| to make sure that all of the process agreed to the treaty will be put in

place, and that underpins some of the argument we have had on the amendment. i5 the argument we have had on the amendment-— amendment. is it safe for asylum seekers there? _ amendment. is it safe for asylum seekers there? by _ amendment. is it safe for asylum seekers there? by the _ amendment. is it safe for asylum seekers there? by the time i amendment. is it safe for asylum seekers there? by the time we i seekers there? by the time we see as lum seekers there? by the time we see asylum seekers — seekers there? by the time we see asylum seekers going _ seekers there? by the time we see asylum seekers going there, i seekers there? by the time we see asylum seekers going there, it - seekers there? by the time we see asylum seekers going there, it will| asylum seekers going there, it will be a place which will fulfil its treaty obligations. i wanted the law to fully reflect that. the government have said on the floor of both houses that they intend to make sure that the treaty is fully implemented, before it starts to be used, so we have to take them at their word and we will be looking very closely to make sure that those high standards are adhered to. voters who want to see illegal migration reduced, you want to see the boats stop, do you think this policy is going to work, is it going to do that? i policy is going to work, is it going to do that?— to do that? i think it will help sto i to do that? i think it will help stop i think — to do that? i think it will help stop i think it _ to do that? i think it will help stop i think it is _ to do that? i think it will help stop i think it is one - to do that? i think it will help stop i think it is one of - to do that? i think it will help stop i think it is one of a - to do that? i think it will help . stop i think it is one of a number of measures that the government is taking. i’m of measures that the government is takina. �* , ., ., taking. i'm 'ust going to pose you, for: ive taking. i'm just going to pose you, forgive me. _ taking. i'm just going to pose you, forgive me. it _ taking. i'm just going to pose you, forgive me, it is _ taking. i'm just going to pose you, forgive me, it is strange _ taking. i'm just going to pose you, | forgive me, it is strange because of the delay, but will this stop all of the delay, but will this stop all of the doubts in your view? fif

the delay, but will this stop all of the doubts in your view? of itself, i don't think— the doubts in your view? of itself, i don't think one _ the doubts in your view? of itself, i don't think one particularly - i don't think one particularly aspect of the policy will conclusively stop the boats, it is a range of policies and tools in the box that will make the difference, which is why the government has not just pursue this but redouble efforts to make sure that as a collective challenge, we deal with what is happening notjust do a spot two countries across western europe, and that means carrying on in the spirit that rishi sunak has shown, getting agreement with other countries on the particular source of the issue and cracking down on this trade by working with other countries who are also having to deal with the consequences of illegal trafficking, people smuggling and all the rest of it. rishi sunak is putting small boats front and centre of your election campaign, the former home secretary suella braverman saying that there will be a token couple of flights taking off and it will not work, we have us the formerjustice secretary wanting the bill amended because your not happy with it, if neither of you two senior conservatives be

happy with it why should voters trust the conservatives to get this to work? , , . trust the conservatives to get this to work? , ' . , to work? there is difference between caettin the to work? there is difference between getting the detail _ to work? there is difference between getting the detail of _ to work? there is difference between getting the detail of the _ to work? there is difference between getting the detail of the bill - to work? there is difference between getting the detail of the bill right - getting the detail of the bill right which is myjob as a scrutinising legislator, and the principle of using a third country like rwanda, i've always agreed with it, so does suella braverman. the question is, can we make this work? i think by ignoring the law and ignoring obligations we risk further successful legal challenge. i am much more of the school that is if you tighten it up and say that it is much less vulnerable, and others in the conservative party seem to want to look at withdrawing from the european convention on human rights. i think that is an irrelevant issue when it comes to making a domestic policy like this work. and that is what we should be focusing on. thank ou ve what we should be focusing on. thank you very much — what we should be focusing on. thank you very much for _ what we should be focusing on. thank you very much for your— what we should be focusing on. thank you very much for your time, - what we should be focusing on. thank you very much for your time, robert buckland. we will talk to ayesha hazarika and james heale in the next few minutes. in new york, the opening statements in donald trump's historic hush

money trial finally began. prosecutors accuse the former president of "election fraud, pure and simple", falsifying business records in order to cover up an attempt to influence the 2016 election. mr trump denies all 3a charges. specifically, they say he tried to buy the silence of stormy daniels, an adult film star who says she had an affair with him ten years before. the prosecution has tried to frame the trial not as a sex scandal, but as another case of mr trump's attempts to interfere with elections. the defence said today "there's nothing wrong with trying to influence an election. it's called democracy." after hearing the opening arguments from the prosecution and his defence, as well as the first witness, donald trump emerged from court to say this. this is a witchhunt, to keep me from the campaign trail. so far it is not working, because the public

understands that it is a witchhunt. stormy daniels was on newsnight in 2018. here she explains why she told the world about her alleged affair with donald trump. actually i don't make it a habit to kiss and — actually i don't make it a habit to kiss and tell come part of me feels guilty— kiss and tell come part of me feels guilty about doing that but by recounting every detail, i think it is obvious— recounting every detail, i think it is obvious that i know things that only someone who had actually experienced and be there would know i would _ experienced and be there would know i would never have included any of those _ i would never have included any of those things or, you know, kiss and tell for— those things or, you know, kiss and tell for lack— those things or, you know, kiss and tell for lack of a better explanation if it wasn't for the fact that — explanation if it wasn't for the fact that i _ explanation if it wasn't for the fact that i was being called a liar. stormy— fact that i was being called a liar. stormy daniels in 2018. let's talk to miles taylor, who used to work for donald trump. and catherina gioino, who's covering the trump trial for rolling stone. hi, both. hello to both of you. thank you for talking to our british audience. how much of a moment wasn't in court today? it much of a moment wasn't in court toda ? ., , much of a moment wasn't in court toda ? ., much of a moment wasn't in court toda? ., ,, today? it was fascinating. firstly, is the first day —

today? it was fascinating. firstly, is the first day of _ today? it was fascinating. firstly, is the first day of opening - is the first day of opening statements from both the prosecution and defence with the prosecutor saying trump pinched pennies and he would never in his right mind have paid double the asking price of michael cohen and you have a defence saying if he is such a frugal businessman, they say they would clearly prove his innocence and he was owing this man what he owed him. you also have the first set of testimony. you also have the first set of testimony-— you also have the first set of testimon . �* ., , ., , testimony. and to remind people, michael cohen _ testimony. and to remind people, michael cohen was _ testimony. and to remind people, michael cohen was trump's - testimony. and to remind people, | michael cohen was trump's former lawyer who himself was jailed for three years if i recall correctly for various charges. what was donald trump's body language like today? it seemed like he was struggling to stay awake. seemed like he was struggling to stay awake-— seemed like he was struggling to stay awake.- last - seemed like he was struggling to stay awake.- last week i seemed like he was struggling to - stay awake.- last week during stay awake. what?! last week during 'u stay awake. what?! last week during jury selection. _ stay awake. what?! last week during jury selection. it _ stay awake. what?! last week during jury selection, it was _ stay awake. what?! last week during jury selection, it was a _ stay awake. what?! last week during jury selection, it was a full _ stay awake. what?! last week during jury selection, it was a full week- jury selection, it was a full week of trying to pick 12 jurors and six ultimately can get a little more

income if i was on trial, i would not by the fall asleep. he was seen ljy not by the fall asleep. he was seen by a new york times reporter letting his jaw goats like and comment on live tv, came back into the courtroom glared at her after she said that. he seemed to be raised by this comment and today he was struggling to stay awake. is body language jerking as if he was trying to keep on listening to the trial. right. what is the key argument from the prosecution and from the defence? , ., the prosecution and from the defence? , . ., the prosecution and from the defence? , . . ., defence? they are arguing that he clearly knew _ defence? they are arguing that he clearly knew he _ defence? they are arguing that he clearly knew he falsified _ defence? they are arguing that he clearly knew he falsified accounts | clearly knew he falsified accounts of transactions to hide the reimbursement of a 20p to stormy daniels. the defence is saying he was clearly paying his lawyer had no prior knowledge of the payments that a of hush money payments to stormy daniels but they were saying it is

not influencing an election, there were payments he owed his life are doing a greatjob and they're trying to discredit michael cohen now is trying to have financial gain to see trump's destruction.— trump's destruction. let's bring in miles, trump's destruction. let's bring in miles. donald _ trump's destruction. let's bring in miles, donald trump _ trump's destruction. let's bring in miles, donald trump has - trump's destruction. let's bring in miles, donald trump has honestlyi miles, donald trump has honestly been watching you commentate on his trial because he called you out, saying, "so many lightweights and things going on purporting to know me as though they were a long lost relative only to have virtually no knowledge of me or anything about me. a weak and pathetic rhino, republican in name only, named myles taylor." how do you plead? i republican in name only, named myles taylor." how do you plead?— taylor." how do you plead? i mean, what you even _ taylor." how do you plead? i mean, what you even stated _ taylor." how do you plead? i mean, what you even stated that? - taylor." how do you plead? i mean, what you even stated that? i - taylor." how do you plead? i mean, what you even stated that? i think l what you even stated that? i think the bigger— what you even stated that? i think the bigger concern would be after spending — the bigger concern would be after spending time with the man on air force _ spending time with the man on air force one — spending time with the man on air force one and in the white house situation — force one and in the white house situation room and the oval office, if he doesn't remember me, it is a pretty— if he doesn't remember me, it is a pretty damning indictment of his memory — pretty damning indictment of his

memory. but there is the photo evidence — memory. but there is the photo evidence to show it point the bigger concern _ evidence to show it point the bigger concern here in the way it ties back to the _ concern here in the way it ties back to the case — concern here in the way it ties back to the case is— concern here in the way it ties back to the case is you see that the ex—president is willing to claim really— ex—president is willing to claim really anything if it tries to benefit _ really anything if it tries to benefit his case in this case, a very— benefit his case in this case, a very obvious lie that he did not know— very obvious lie that he did not know me — very obvious lie that he did not know me up to suit you meet serving two years _ know me up to suit you meet serving two years as — know me up to suit you meet serving two years as chief of staff at homeland security but again we see him pretending in this case he was unaware _ him pretending in this case he was unaware of— him pretending in this case he was unaware of a payment to his lawyer that was— unaware of a payment to his lawyer that was directed for a catch and kill purpose, a hush money purpose, when _ kill purpose, a hush money purpose, when i _ kill purpose, a hush money purpose, when i think— kill purpose, a hush money purpose, when i think almost any viewer of the case — when i think almost any viewer of the case or— when i think almost any viewer of the case or observer would see that is quite _ the case or observer would see that is quite clearly false. what a coincidence in timing that these e>

the significance here i think that is really— the significance here i think that is really what we saw this week. i think— is really what we saw this week. i think that — is really what we saw this week. i think that is sending shock waves through— think that is sending shock waves through the american political establishment that we are indeed seeing _ establishment that we are indeed seeing a — establishment that we are indeed seeing a president on criminal trial — seeing a president on criminal trial lt— seeing a president on criminal trial. , , ., , ., trial. it will be up to the “my to decide whether i trial. it will be up to the “my to decide whether they _ trial. it will be up to the “my to decide whether they are h trial. it will be up to the jury to decide whether they are more | trial. it will be up to the jury to - decide whether they are more than coincidences and of course mr trump says it is a witchhunt so do you not have any concerns that this might be political? i have any concerns that this might be olitical? ~' , ., ., ., ~' have any concerns that this might be olitical? ~' , ., ., ., ~ ., political? i think if you look at the actual _ political? i think if you look at the actual indictment - political? i think if you look at the actual indictment itself, i political? i think if you look at. the actual indictment itself, what you see _ the actual indictment itself, what you see here are the facts and what this will— you see here are the facts and what this will he — you see here are the facts and what this will be a litmus test for the american — this will be a litmus test for the americanjustice system. i think there _ americanjustice system. i think there is— americanjustice system. i think there is no— americanjustice system. i think there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate _ there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that joe there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate thatjoe biden or his justice — indicate thatjoe biden or his justice department in any way, shape or form _ justice department in any way, shape or form have conspired to try to bring _ or form have conspired to try to bring these allegations, it's an absurd — bring these allegations, it's an absurd claim and one that does not stand _ absurd claim and one that does not stand up— absurd claim and one that does not stand up to — absurd claim and one that does not stand up to the light. what is worrying _ stand up to the light. what is worrying is that the claim that there — worrying is that the claim that there is— worrying is that the claim that there is a _ worrying is that the claim that there is a conspiracy to prosecute donald _ there is a conspiracy to prosecute donald trump has indeed brainwashed a lot of—

donald trump has indeed brainwashed a lot of people from my political persuasion, a lot of conservatives in the _ persuasion, a lot of conservatives in the us, — persuasion, a lot of conservatives in the us, to believe that is true despite — in the us, to believe that is true despite any evidence of such and that is— despite any evidence of such and that is really alarming. and we are seeing _ that is really alarming. and we are seeing it— that is really alarming. and we are seeing it in— that is really alarming. and we are seeing it in the polls, that american confidence in the justice system _ american confidence in the justice system is — american confidence in the justice system is plummeting with trump's attacks— system is plummeting with trump's attacks on— system is plummeting with trump's attacks on it. i think it remains to be seen _ attacks on it. i think it remains to be seen how— attacks on it. i think it remains to be seen how that will effect this election— be seen how that will effect this election and if donald trump should win the _ election and if donald trump should win the election, what it might mean for the _ win the election, what it might mean for the us— win the election, what it might mean for the us department ofjustice. what _ for the us department ofjustice. what might it mean, in your view? after serving for a couple of years with him. — after serving for a couple of years with him, what i will tell you is he had a very— with him, what i will tell you is he had a very keen interest in using the levers — had a very keen interest in using the levers of the justice department for his— the levers of the justice department for his own — the levers of the justice department for his own personal interest. and to go— for his own personal interest. and to go off— for his own personal interest. and to go off to— for his own personal interest. and to go off to his enemies. and that would _ to go off to his enemies. and that would sound like a gross overstatement at any other time period _ overstatement at any other time period but donald trump has said that himself. he has got out there and made — that himself. he has got out there and made clear that he will use the us department ofjustice as a tool of retribution, a tool of revenge against — of retribution, a tool of revenge against his— of retribution, a tool of revenge against his political enemies, all the way— against his political enemies, all the way up to and including joe

biden— the way up to and including joe biden if— the way up to and including joe biden if he wins the election. if it right— biden if he wins the election. if it right now— biden if he wins the election. if it right now donald trump is saying the us department ofjustice is politicised, again of which there is no evidence, what we know to be true is if he _ no evidence, what we know to be true is if he wins _ no evidence, what we know to be true is if he wins the election, his stated — is if he wins the election, his stated intent is to weaponise that department and use it for political purposes— department and use it for political purposes and for retribution. and that should raise the hairs on anyone's_ that should raise the hairs on anyone's skin regardless of their political— anyone's skin regardless of their political party. anyone's skin regardless of their political party-— anyone's skin regardless of their political party. miles and catherina thank ou political party. miles and catherina thank you very _ political party. miles and catherina thank you very much, _ political party. miles and catherina thank you very much, come - political party. miles and catherina thank you very much, come back. political party. miles and catherina - thank you very much, come back soon. let's go back to nick for a quick update from parliament. the latest is the vote from the house of commons will go before the house of commons will go before the house of commons will go before the house of lords at 11:45pm, the next half hour or so, and as i said earlier, it's not expected that there will be any more amendments coming back to the commons so the expectation is it will be done and dusted by midnight. that means the prime minister can land in poland tomorrow in a good mood when he will announce an extra £500 million in aid for ukraine. he is meeting donald tusk, the polish prime

minister, and ian stoltenberg, secretary general of nato. said the flights can't get under way for 10-12 flights can't get under way for 10—12 weeks but as soon as that bill becomes law, you need the king's signature for that to happen, there are things the government can do and they can start detaining people ahead of their removal. —— jens stoltenberg. the prime minister talked about an extra 2500 spaces for detention pond thank you. let’s for detention pond thank you. let's talk into ayesha _ for detention pond thank you. let's talk into ayesha hazarika and james heale. why is it taking ten to 12 weeks to get a plane off if indeed it does take off? i weeks to get a plane off if indeed it does take off?— it does take off? i think the point about detention _ it does take off? i think the point about detention and _ it does take off? i think the point about detention and also - it does take off? i think the point about detention and also making| it does take off? i think the point - about detention and also making sure that it about detention and also making sure thatitis about detention and also making sure that it is a belt and braces approach because we know what has happened before in terms of the pyjama injunctions. previously people have been on the plane ready to be taken off and that's why they need to make sure they will not have any kind of repeats point i don't understand why the processing has

not begun. because they want to make sure they were under the law in terms of that being key and talking to government, that's why they take on a more cautious approach rather than the hair, making sure that all the legislation would be as safe and watertight as possible rather than rushing this through with another farce where you don't have more parliamentary time for legislation. sir robert buckland mentioned the european court of human rights. after the next election, if labour win, if there is a tory leadership contest, is that going to be the issue amongst those going for the leadership of the tory party? i think it will be interesting to see what _ think it will be interesting to see what the — think it will be interesting to see what the right of the conservative party— what the right of the conservative party feel — what the right of the conservative party feel about the row under policy— party feel about the row under policy and i think the test of it will he — policy and i think the test of it will be when we get to june and july and we _ will be when we get to june and july and we see — will be when we get to june and july and we see how many flights are going _ and we see how many flights are going and — and we see how many flights are going and also what reform says about _ going and also what reform says about this because they are nipping at the _ about this because they are nipping at the conservatives heals, the last

polls you _ at the conservatives heals, the last polls you had the