triggered chaos for millions was, herwords, "the happiest moment of her premiership". iall i'd say is he ought to spendl a bit less time reading that book and a bit... and a bit more... and a bit more time reading - the deputy leader's tax advice. but is it all a distraction from what they often claim is one of their biggest priorities — tackling climate change? i think people around the world know climate change is happening, but there is definitely a fear of talking about it in british politics at the moment. so this week for our politicians, we're asking, is saving the planet going out of fashion? morning, morning. with us for the first time,

to answer that question, is the energy secretary claire coutinho — and for labour, shadow justice secretary shabana mahmood. hello to you both over there. they'll both hear how the boss of the government's climate watchdog, chris stark, thinks they're all in fear. it's london marathon day — so we're on bbc two — but you might recognise some of the runners! how come laura. just getting ready for the marathon. it will be quite a tough one, maybe not quite some as tough one, maybe not quite some as tough as all the questions you ask way. and with me at the desk, eco warrior and broadcaster chris packham — layla moran, liberal democrat foreign affairs spokesperson, and businessman lukejohnson — former chair of pizza express and channel 4, now chairman of gail's the bakery chain. let's start with what's in the news. on our theme today, the sunday people sastust stop oil

are planning to wreck holiday plans by storming airports this summer. the observer's splashes with labour shifting to target pensioners — trying to stir it up after the tories said they want to get rid of national insurance over time. the mail has more on the story of angela rayner�*s house sale, claiming a key document has been found. the sunday times carries on its campaign forjustice for those caught up in the infected blood scandal — but has more on a building story, calls for the boss of the met to resign after an officer told a jewish man to stay away from a pro—palestinian march. and the bbc website this morning leads on the vote in congress yesterday finally approving the $61 billion aid package for ukraine. there is a mixed bag in the news this morning, all three of you, and we will talk look about climate change today but we have heard stories about sleaze in westminster continued to dominate whether the

behaviour of tory mps continued to dominate whether the behaviour of tory mp5 or the ongoing rumblings around angela rayner. chris, detailing what feels like an election campaign already that politicians are actually able to concentrate on big issues? i politicians are actually able to concentrate on big issues? i don't think they are. _ concentrate on big issues? i don't think they are. i _ concentrate on big issues? i don't think they are. ithink— concentrate on big issues? i don't think they are. i think they - concentrate on big issues? i don't think they are. i think they are - think they are. i think they are preoccupied typically with a short termism. that isn't prevalentjust in the election campaign, when it comes to addressing the climate breakdown and biodiversity loss, it is prevalent much of the time. it isn't an issue that can be solved in five year terms of office. they have to think bigger picture and longer term and serious investment now. that is what gives us concern. irate that is what gives us concern. we will be talking to claire coutinho at the moment and hearing from chris stark but layla moran, the accusation there is that you are preoccupied with your own business. it is not as i would say. the sleaze stuff _ it is not as i would say. the sleaze stuff plays — it is not as i would say. the sleaze stuff plays in because if someone is suspended — stuff plays in because if someone is suspended minister and they are replaced — suspended minister and they are replaced and there is a merry—go—round of who gets what role. _ merry—go—round of who gets what role. i_ merry—go—round of who gets what role. i am — merry—go—round of who gets what role. i am learning every time a new minister— role. i am learning every time a new minister comes in you have to re-brief— minister comes in you have to re—brief them on your campaign and this is— re—brief them on your campaign and this is a _ re—brief them on your campaign and this is a massive thing for my constituents. i have brought a

ieiter— constituents. i have brought a letter here from seven—year—old bella _ letter here from seven—year—old bella has — letter here from seven—year—old bella has written in and they get hundreds— bella has written in and they get hundreds of these to tell me how important — hundreds of these to tell me how important climate changes. they and the youngest constituents are asking is the _ the youngest constituents are asking is the most, they haven't forgotten, and i_ is the most, they haven't forgotten, and i completely agree that we do need _ and i completely agree that we do need to— and i completely agree that we do need to focus on it but it would help— need to focus on it but it would help to — need to focus on it but it would help to have some government stability — help to have some government stabili . �* ., help to have some government stabili . �* . , stability. but there are big long-term _ stability. but there are big long-term targets, - stability. but there are big long-term targets, look, l stability. but there are big - long-term targets, look, aren't long—term targets, look, aren't there, and there is a lot of pressure on industry and consumers to come up with cash to help april of this. iiii to come up with cash to help april of this. , ., to come up with cash to help april of this. ,, ., ., ~' to come up with cash to help april of this. . to come up with cash to help april of this. i. . , , , ., of this. if you look at surveys of what ordinary — of this. if you look at surveys of what ordinary people _ of this. if you look at surveys of what ordinary people care - of this. if you look at surveys of| what ordinary people care about of this. if you look at surveys of i what ordinary people care about it is the _ what ordinary people care about it is the nhs, — what ordinary people care about it is the nhs, the _ what ordinary people care about it is the nhs, the economy, - is the nhs, the economy, immigration, _ is the nhs, the economy, immigration, climate - is the nhs, the economy, i immigration, climate change is the nhs, the economy, - immigration, climate change is is the nhs, the economy, _ immigration, climate change is about 20th on— immigration, climate change is about 20th on their — immigration, climate change is about 20th on their list _ immigration, climate change is about 20th on their list of _ immigration, climate change is about 20th on their list of priorities - 20th on their list of priorities like some _ 20th on their list of priorities like some polling _ 20th on their list of priorities like some polling tends - 20th on their list of priorities like some polling tends to i 20th on their list of prioritiesl like some polling tends to put 20th on their list of priorities i like some polling tends to put it 20th on their list of priorities - like some polling tends to put it in the top _ like some polling tends to put it in the top five — like some polling tends to put it in the top five it _ like some polling tends to put it in the top five. it is— like some polling tends to put it in the top five. it is not— like some polling tends to put it in the top five. it is not the _ like some polling tends to put it in the top five. it is not the number. the top five. it is not the number one but— the top five. it is not the number one but you _ the top five. it is not the number one but you believe _ the top five. it is not the number one but you believe it— the top five. it is not the number one but you believe it that - the top five. it is not the numberi one but you believe it that people are being — one but you believe it that people are being told _ one but you believe it that people are being told what _ one but you believe it that people are being told what to _ one but you believe it that people are being told what to do - one but you believe it that people are being told what to do and - one but you believe it that people are being told what to do and you i are being told what to do and you don't _ are being told what to do and you don't like — are being told what to do and you don't like it? _ are being told what to do and you don't like it? |_ are being told what to do and you don't like it? ithink— are being told what to do and you don't like it? ithink it— are being told what to do and you don't like it? i think it is- are being told what to do and you don't like it? i think it is the - don't like it? i think it is the reality— don't like it? i think it is the reality of— don't like it? i think it is the reality of the _ don't like it? i think it is the reality of the cost _ don't like it? i think it is the reality of the cost of- don't like it? i think it is the reality of the cost of net - don't like it? i think it is the| reality of the cost of net zero don't like it? i think it is the - reality of the cost of net zero and people _ reality of the cost of net zero and people are — reality of the cost of net zero and people are waking _ reality of the cost of net zero and people are waking up _ reality of the cost of net zero and people are waking up to- reality of the cost of net zero and people are waking up to the - reality of the cost of net zero and people are waking up to the factl people are waking up to the fact that when— people are waking up to the fact that when they _ people are waking up to the fact that when they get _ people are waking up to the fact that when they get their- people are waking up to the fact . that when they get their electricity and gas _ that when they get their electricity and gas lpills— that when they get their electricity and gas bills this _ that when they get their electricity and gas bills this is _ that when they get their electricity and gas bills this is going - that when they get their electricity and gas bills this is going to - that when they get their electricity and gas bills this is going to be - and gas bills this is going to be unaffordable. _

and gas bills this is going to be unaffordable.— unaffordable. certainly for businesses _ unaffordable. certainly for businesses it _ unaffordable. certainly for businesses it is _ unaffordable. certainly for businesses it is a - unaffordable. certainly for businesses it is a big - unaffordable. certainly for businesses it is a big cost| unaffordable. certainly for - businesses it is a big cost coming down the track so we will raise all theseissues down the track so we will raise all these issues with continue in a few minutes, the energy and net zero secretary but first we will hear from someone else whose subject this is. now most of our politicians are fond of telling us how important it is to tackle climate change. last year was the hottest on record globally, here we're becoming used to seeing wilder weather battering our own shores. british holidaymakers even got stranded by floods in the desert city of dubai just this week. but in the last few six months, well, politicians they've gone a bit wobbly on their own promises. on thursday, the snp ditched its 2030 emissions goal. labour has also ditched its pledge to invest £28 billion each year on green energy. and the prime minister's big pitch to you in the autumn was to delay some of the government's plans to go green. here's the rub. it is the law, that the uk has to hit its net zero target by 2050 — in other words, to remove as much carbon from the air

as gets pumped into it. of course that means because potentially for businesses and consumers. and the man whose job it is to check up on politicians' progress is chris stark, the boss of the climate change committee. i met him at the new green energy exhibit at the science museum in london, and fair to say, he is less than impressed. let me say from the off that the country has done a lot to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, the thing that was when a change. but in our view that it is in the past. we are looking into the future at the things that need to be done if we want to finish the job of getting to the goal of net zero, including some very difficult topics like how we heat homes for how we deal with the industrial emissions in this country, what we do with farming, transport systems. it is in those other areas that we see the gap and that gap is what we refer to when we talk about the lack of leadership.

we need to see stronger policy in other areas despite the fact other parts of the world are playing catch—up with you kate. the risk of uk we will lose the race just at the point when you want to be at the head of that. the point when you want to be at the head of that-— point when you want to be at the head of that. the premise ditched some of the _ head of that. the premise ditched some of the measures _ head of that. the premise ditched some of the measures and - head of that. the premise ditched some of the measures and slow. head of that. the premise ditched - some of the measures and slow down what you have been talking about in the autumn. what was your honest reaction? it the autumn. what was your honest reaction? ., , , , the autumn. what was your honest reaction? . , , , ., reaction? it was presented to the count is reaction? it was presented to the country is a _ reaction? it was presented to the country is a step _ reaction? it was presented to the country is a step back _ reaction? it was presented to the country is a step back from - reaction? it was presented to the country is a step back from going| country is a step back from going too fast on this transition and in the speech itself he talked about the speech itself he talked about the need to reappraise lots of the steps that take us to net zero. my honest answer to that is it set us back. i think we have moved from a position where we were really at the forefront pushing ahead as quickly as we could on something i believed to be fundamental to the uk economy, beneficial to the people living in this country, whether you care about the planet were not and we are now in a position where we are trying to recover ground and one example of that, the diplomatic impact of that

has been immense. we have lots of contacts with other countries around the world. it doesn't matter that there were detailed policies within that speech that you could say were very much in line with net zero. the overall message of the world took from it is that the uk is less ambitious and climate than it once was and that is extremely hard to recover from. was and that is extremely hard to recoverfrom. the was and that is extremely hard to recover from. the trouble was and that is extremely hard to recoverfrom. the trouble is was and that is extremely hard to recover from. the trouble is the rhetoric from this has definitely changed recently. de rhetoric from this has definitely changed recently.— rhetoric from this has definitely changed recently. de think climate chance is changed recently. de think climate change is absolutely _ changed recently. de think climate change is absolutely a _ changed recently. de think climate change is absolutely a personal- change is absolutely a personal priority for the prime minister and you think rishi sunak cares about this very much? i you think rishi sunak cares about this very much?— this very much? i take him on his word. he said _ this very much? i take him on his word. he said it— this very much? i take him on his word. he said it was _ this very much? i take him on his word. he said it was a _ this very much? i take him on his word. he said it was a personal i word. he said it was a personal priority and made the switch in downing street where he made that very point but i think he has not clearly made it as much of a priority as some of his predecessors did. certainly borisjohnson. and theresa may was the prime minister that put net zero interlock. i would prefer a course to see the head of the government really take a leadership position on it because every other bit of government feels the pressure to then act on that and

thatis the pressure to then act on that and that is when the good stuff starts to happen. that is when the good stuff starts to ha en. �* that is when the good stuff starts to ha en. . . that is when the good stuff starts to hauen. . . , ., that is when the good stuff starts tohauen.�* . , ., to happen. and that is not happening riaht to happen. and that is not happening ri . ht t to happen. and that is not happening riuhtt in to happen. and that is not happening right try in your— to happen. and that is not happening right try in your view. _ to happen. and that is not happening right try in your view. it _ to happen. and that is not happening right try in your view. it certainly - right try in your view. it certainly feels more _ right try in your view. it certainly feels more difficult _ right try in your view. it certainly feels more difficult now. - right try in your view. it certainly feels more difficult now. in - right try in your view. it certainly feels more difficult now. in the l feels more difficult now. in the civil service certainly. the machine is producing lots of policy but it is producing lots of policy but it is isn't clear how that should be presented to the public. that could really do with some clarification. labour also has been attacked by some on their own side for not being ambitious enough, ditching their 28 billion target of spending on green projects. do you think also keir starmer should be older on this agenda? i starmer should be older on this arenda? ., starmer should be older on this arenda? . . starmer should be older on this arenda? ., ., . , . agenda? i do. you regularly hear ed miliband talk _ agenda? i do. you regularly hear ed miliband talk about _ agenda? i do. you regularly hear ed miliband talk about the _ agenda? i do. you regularly hear ed miliband talk about the transition i miliband talk about the transition on the labour side but keir starmer doesn't talk about christmas. the exciting story that comes with the climate transition is what i want to hear from climate transition is what i want to hearfrom leaders climate transition is what i want to hear from leaders on either climate transition is what i want to hearfrom leaders on either side climate transition is what i want to hear from leaders on either side of the political divide. it hear from leaders on either side of the political divide.— the political divide. it sounds from what you're _ the political divide. it sounds from what you're saying _ the political divide. it sounds from what you're saying that _ the political divide. it sounds from what you're saying that you - the political divide. it sounds from what you're saying that you don't. what you're saying that you don't feel at this moment in time when the need to act seems to be stronger than ever before, if you look at what is happening around the world, our politicians are not grasping at. i think there is a collective fear

about talking about it at the moment which i find interesting, look out your window and you see we have had the wettest i8 your window and you see we have had the wettest 18 months ever in this country. the hottest year on record in the last 12 months. people around the world now changes happening but there is definitely a fear of talking about it in british politics at the moment. my biggest fear about standing back from my former role on the change committee is that i would not wish to see us reach a point where you get polarised politics around climate, the likes of which you find in the us or australia. i worry that might start to creep in if we leave this vacuum. that hasn't i'm glad to say quite crept in to build and i was around climate change but not far from that. you can see some people have been warming up to make some of the site must again. tlillie warming up to make some of the site must aaain. , warming up to make some of the site must again-— must again. one place where there was allotment _ must again. one place where there was allotment easier _ must again. one place where there was allotment easier than - must again. one place where there was allotment easier than for - must again. one place where there was allotment easier than for it - was allotment easier than for it where even the greens and government is in the scottish commiseration and just this week they have ditched one of their targets.— of their targets. scotland is i think a salutary _ of their targets. scotland is i think a salutary tale. - of their targets. scotland is i think a salutary tale. the - of their targets. scotland is i - think a salutary tale. the scottish government chose to choose an even

more ambitious path than what we had advised. that is fine stop i love ambition. it it only matters if you actually deliver against that. what we have seen in this week is a desperately disappointing thing from the scots. we have pulled away the target framework. almost in its entirety. leaving the net zero target but removing the targets for 2030 and 2040. the reason they have done it is because 2030 target was overambitious. 50 done it is because 2030 target was overambitious.— overambitious. so for political reasons they _ overambitious. so for political reasons they set _ overambitious. so for political reasons they set a _ overambitious. so for political reasons they set a target - overambitious. so for political reasons they set a target theyj overambitious. so for political - reasons they set a target they were never going to hit but now they have had to ditch it.— had to ditch it. yeah. i think this is the problem. _ had to ditch it. yeah. i think this is the problem. politics - had to ditch it. yeah. i think this is the problem. politics and - is the problem. politics and political ambitions is exactly what we need and climate change but that was a bridge too far. there wasn't a credible path to that target. we were the first to say that and we gave them advice on the sort of steps you would need to take to hit that target but they weren't politically palatable. the that target but they weren't politically palatable. the cost to business are _ politically palatable. the cost to business are potentially - politically palatable. the cost to | business are potentially massive, the cost to consumers are personally massive to many people if they look

at how much it costs to get a heat pump or how much it costs the insulator house or for a new bowling that might be more efficient but at the moment they are thinking i am finding it hard to pay my bills as things stand, a lot of members of the publicjust think things stand, a lot of members of the public just think this things stand, a lot of members of the publicjust think this is not something that is affordable right now and what would you say to that? it is entirely reasonable. the danger isn't thinking about some sort of magical solution, there isn't, if you can't afford your gas bill you are hardly likely to buy a heat pump. that is fair. i think two things on this. firstly it is a policy choice about how we handle this and it is for the government to decide that it the point here is that we have time. it is a transition and it does not require us to ask people to do things that are impossible at the moment. we need a plan that looks across ten, 15, 20 years and plays it for the country. its. 15, 20 years and plays it for the count . . ., ., 15, 20 years and plays it for the count .�* ., ., , ., country. a lot of people in politics now say we _ country. a lot of people in politics now say we should _ country. a lot of people in politics now say we should be _ country. a lot of people in politics now say we should be drilling - country. a lot of people in politics. now say we should be drilling more in the north sea and we have gas and oil of our own waters, shouldn't that be the solution, what would you

say to that? we that be the solution, what would you say to that?— say to that? we do have gas and oil in the uk, we _ say to that? we do have gas and oil in the uk, we have _ say to that? we do have gas and oil in the uk, we have for— say to that? we do have gas and oil in the uk, we have for a _ say to that? we do have gas and oil in the uk, we have for a long - say to that? we do have gas and oil in the uk, we have for a long time, | in the uk, we have for a long time, the most interesting thing of all about the story of oil and gas when it comes to climate change is that the reserves we have an uk largely will be done by 2050. the fact is we won't have a thing left by 2050, therefore we have to replace it with something cleaner. instead of focusing on the transition, the genuine transition toward something cleaner my experience of the last couple of years with politicians on all sides of all sides of the gilded wasting time on things don't matter like oil and gas licenses post that there is a marginal benefit to energy security in the country in having new oil and licenses but it doesn't change the geology the country. doesn't change the geology the count . , , . . country. sometimes deeper climate campaigners _ country. sometimes deeper climate campaigners have — country. sometimes deeper climate campaigners have been _ country. sometimes deeper climate campaigners have been a _ country. sometimes deeper climate campaigners have been a bit - country. sometimes deeper climate campaigners have been a bit holierl campaigners have been a bit holier than thou sometimes, maybe they haven't played the organ properly, and you yourself were criticised for suggesting in an e—mail that you got some in your team to use technical language to try to explain something

away. was it a mistake but more broadly do you think i'm campaigners are sometimesjust got broadly do you think i'm campaigners are sometimes just got it wrong? climate campaigners are often their own worst enemy. we have been through various periods on the campaign to tackle climate change when i feel they have been more useful than others. listen, when i feel they have been more usefulthan others. listen, ifind in recent years that climate campaigners have actually those in the discussion of climate change definitely. it has been part of discussion, the movement towards this being such a negative discussion on some parts of the press at least. i am passionate about the work we produce and the clinic change committee and that particular story in the telegraph was about i felt a miss representation of our work and that e—mail was private e—mail. because i regret it made its way into the public domain but i stand by what i said behind it which is what we

produced high—quality work and i absolutely am passionate about making sure people understand what you produce. we are sitting here in this wonderful gallery, there was a protest not so long ago, people shutting the place down and you feel that has been detrimental to the cause? we've got to view this as a transition, we are not going to switch off this stuff in the most successful transition is the transition that everyone supports so that bit of it needs work. fine transition that everyone supports so that bit of it needs work.— that bit of it needs work. one of the former— that bit of it needs work. one of the former prime _ that bit of it needs work. one of the former prime ministers - that bit of it needs work. one of- the former prime ministers knocking around at the moment liz truss says the climate change committee is a business quango and is far too political, are doing work that no one else worries about. what do you say to that that the committee should not exist? liz say to that that the committee should not exist?— say to that that the committee should not exist? liz truss is the elected politician _

should not exist? liz truss is the elected politician but _ should not exist? liz truss is the elected politician but if _ should not exist? liz truss is the elected politician but if her - elected politician but if her concern is a faceless quango then here i am, here is my face but i think she is wrong. happy to say that. we have these institutions in place because they look beyond the electoral cycle and they do not make decisions on behalf of politicians but they are there to provide informed technical advice and i think we will be poorer without them. , ,., ., ,, them. they need someone mocking the home, is that — them. they need someone mocking the home, is that what _ them. they need someone mocking the home, is that what you _ them. they need someone mocking the home, is that what you are _ them. they need someone mocking the home, is that what you are saying? - them. they need someone mocking the home, is that what you are saying? i i home, is that what you are saying? i am ready to mock the hummer, it is important to have homework mocked and i am happy to do that. let's talk about that straight away with the energy secretary claire coutinho who is here for the first time. welcome. we had chris stark site this is not a priority for rishi sunak as it was for his predecessors and his decisions has set the uk back, he is right? decisions has set the uk back, he is ritht? ~ , , right? the prime minister says this is a priority — right? the prime minister says this is a priority and _

right? the prime minister says this is a priority and let's _ right? the prime minister says this is a priority and let's look - right? the prime minister says this is a priority and let's look at - right? the prime minister says this is a priority and let's look at our i is a priority and let's look at our record. we are the first country of all major economies, the top 20 largest economies to have halved our emissions and we've done that in a pragmatic way and that's what we want to keep doing so in our time we have seen the economy grow by 18% and the protected household finances and the protected household finances and i think that is the right approach. and i think that is the right approach-— and i think that is the right a- roach. ., , . . and i think that is the right a. roach. ., , ., . .,, approach. that is about which has been achieved _ approach. that is about which has been achieved so _ approach. that is about which has been achieved so far— approach. that is about which has been achieved so far but - approach. that is about which has been achieved so far but she - approach. that is about which has been achieved so far but she said| been achieved so far but she said his clear contention is the shift from rishi sunak has had a negative effect and if you look at the decision is made, you fall back on requiring landlords to make homes more energy efficient, ban on the sale of petrol and diesel cars and you are renewing gas and oil licenses in the north sea. all of those logically do mean that you are going more slowly, it's not logical to say you are not? iii going more slowly, it's not logical to say you are not?— to say you are not? if you look at what we have _ to say you are not? if you look at what we have done _ to say you are not? if you look at what we have done since - to say you are not? if you look at what we have done since i've - to say you are not? if you look at. what we have done since i've been to say you are not? if you look at - what we have done since i've been in post, there are some things we have

turned the dial up, we have changed things to do with business taxes, ways to support the bitter supply chains in the country and £30 billion of investment has come into the energy sector, places we are moving faster and i make no apology for this, we have many changes where it applies to the cost of living. decisions to do with the home or the cause, we are going to take a measured approach because we do not want to keep costs on families. that ma be want to keep costs on families. that may be the — want to keep costs on families. that may be the right _ want to keep costs on families. that may be the right or— want to keep costs on families. that may be the right or wrong thing to do but the point is plainly that means there has been a slowing of the pace the independent watchdog says clearly the uk is substantially off track to hit the 2013 targets? i would dispute that, look at our record, every single target we have had so far we have met and overshot on the target we have coming up, the carbon budget, we are on track to

overshoot. but we must understand, lower, there are two things when it comes to this agenda. we want to make sure we future proof industry and we get the benefits into the economy of pushing forward on net zero but we want to protect households and i think people care about climate change and so do i. what they don't want is heaps of costs on them when they see 1% of global emissions and other countries are polluting more. they want us to take a balanced approach. the difficulty for — take a balanced approach. the difficulty for anyone in government as politicians here voted to make it the law you hit these targets and you've mentioned one target. but in the big picture the next big target is to cut emissions in 2030 by 60 8%. just this week the scottish government ditched its target for 2030 so can you categorically say you will keep that target, the 2030? we are not moving away from the

targets and i would say out of all the targets not only have you met but overshot but look at the scottish government, from the last 12 targets they have missed eight of them so we have a very strong delivery track record but we will do this in a fair way and there are two ways of doing this. you can do it in a fair way, protecting hassles or you can take the labour party approach, the changes they want to make for example shutting down the north sea, industry says that would leave the country and i think you said a number of times in the clip with chris stark they do not have the £28 billion spending but they cut the policy so how will they fund that, how many taxes will they raise? i that, how many taxes will they raise? ., , that, how many taxes will they raise? . , ., raise? i will raise that with shabana — raise? i will raise that with shabana mahmood - raise? i will raise that with shabana mahmood as - raise? i will raise that with shabana mahmood as you | raise? i will raise that with - shabana mahmood as you would raise? i will raise that with _ shabana mahmood as you would expect but there has definitely been a shift in how the conservative party talks about this and you say it is to protect consumers but looking at it from the outside, estimate they

are government in a straight says the rush to net zero is in her words lunacy and recently he had a government minister his actualjob it is to promote renewable energy, andrew whalley, attending a rally against large solar farm against large solarfarm developments. did you tell him off for going to that? he developments. did you tell him off for going to that?— for going to that? he came out of parliament _ for going to that? he came out of parliament and _ for going to that? he came out of parliament and spoke _ for going to that? he came out of parliament and spoke to - for going to that? he came out of parliament and spoke to people. | for going to that? he came out of. parliament and spoke to people. as concerns their concerns were completely legitimate. this is going up completely legitimate. this is going up government and we must balance lots of things. i'm not only the secretary of state for net zero but i have to think about energy security, people's bills, weeping through a difficult time and we do have to think about food security. that is the point of being in government. you cannot adopt ideology from pressure groups, you must take the right approach. believing in the right approach, as you say you are, making the arguments and for andrew as a minister of state, shouldn't he be

able to rise above local issues in his own place and doesn't that look farcical for the renewables his own place and doesn't that look farcicalfor the renewables minister farcical for the renewables minister to farcicalfor the renewables minister to go to a place people are protesting against the development you say you need? ihe protesting against the development you say you need? he is protesting against the development you say you need?— protesting against the development you say you need? he is also an mp talkint you say you need? he is also an mp talkin: to you say you need? he is also an mp talking to people — you say you need? he is also an mp talking to people about _ you say you need? he is also an mp talking to people about their- talking to people about their concerns and i think that's right. we should not only listen to one side of the debate but myjob is to make sure we meet those targets and do that in a fair way while protecting the economy and making sure we look after the other things we need to for people like you are wearing their bills. fin we need to for people like you are wearing their bills.— we need to for people like you are wearing their bills. on the point at bills there are _ wearing their bills. on the point at bills there are people _ wearing their bills. on the point at bills there are people who - wearing their bills. on the point at bills there are people who have i bills there are people who have struggled to pay their bills in the last couple of years, all of our viewers have benefited from significant government help in order to pay bills but people will remember a very real outcry when it emerged that thousands upon thousands of households that have prepayment meters forcibly fitted in their homes and many people were quite understandably outraged by

what had been going on. grant shapps your predecessor ordered companies to give redress to people affected. 0ut to give redress to people affected. out of 130,000 cases looked at only 1500 people have had compensation. are you just abandoning the rest of those people?— those people? absolutely not and i should say when _ those people? absolutely not and i should say when we _ those people? absolutely not and i should say when we saw— those people? absolutely not and i should say when we saw in - those people? absolutely not and i should say when we saw in that i should say when we saw in that winter prepayment meter is being forced on the vulnerable we stepped in quickly because no one wants to see that, it was appalling behaviour and when i came into the row one of the first things i did was sit down with suppliers and talked about the issue because i wanted to make sure we could protect people. leather issue because i wanted to make sure we could protect people.— we could protect people. why have onl 1500 we could protect people. why have only 1500 people — we could protect people. why have only 1500 people been _ we could protect people. why have | only 1500 people been compensated for what you say was very distressing?— for what you say was very distressin. ? �*, . .. , . , for what you say was very distressint? �*, . u , . , ., distressing? it's unacceptable and i have spoken _ distressing? it's unacceptable and i have spoken to _ distressing? it's unacceptable and i have spoken to ofgem _ distressing? it's unacceptable and i have spoken to ofgem about i distressing? it's unacceptable and i have spoken to ofgem about this . distressing? it's unacceptable and i i have spoken to ofgem about this who are overseeing it and i've made it clear people can get compensation as quickly as possible and that's the steps we're taking, we are getting new figures in the coming months but we are ready to act to make sure

people get their money but on prepayment meters, one of the things i think we can be proud of as we got rid of the premium people who are on prepayment meters were paying and thatis prepayment meters were paying and that is really important. you prepayment meters were paying and that is really important.— that is really important. you have set more people _ that is really important. you have set more people will— that is really important. you have set more people will get - set more people will get compensation, how many and when? ofgem are overseeing the spot as many as soon as possible and ofgem will come back with final figures and people see action we can take but it's right we get people compensation.— but it's right we get people comensation. ., . , , compensation. how many people rou:hl , compensation. how many people roughly. at _ compensation. how many people roughly. at the — compensation. how many people roughly, at the moment - compensation. how many people roughly, at the moment it - compensation. how many people roughly, at the moment it is i compensation. how many people | roughly, at the moment it is tiny, 1500 out of 150,000 cases. i ultimately want to see everyone get compensation. it’s ultimately want to see everyone get compensation-— compensation. it's been in lots of race and a — compensation. it's been in lots of race and a gimmick _ compensation. it's been in lots of race and a gimmick in _ compensation. it's been in lots of. race and a gimmick in westminster, allegations about mark menzies, a conservative mp suspended by the party over claims he misused party funds but it is acceptable the tory party do about this for several months, lo and behold he was only suspended when the allegations made their way into the papers? i

understand the conversations that happen before the moment in time it was in the papers but i understand that was when new information came to light so it's under investigation. the allegations are very serious, very concerning but it is being dealt with. if very serious, very concerning but it is being dealt with. ii it very serious, very concerning but it is being dealt with.— is being dealt with. if it is so serious. _ is being dealt with. if it is so serious, wanted _ is being dealt with. if it is so serious, wanted the - is being dealt with. if it is so serious, wanted the party i is being dealt with. if it is so| serious, wanted the party sit is being dealt with. if it is so i serious, wanted the party sit on it for three months? i serious, wanted the party sit on it for three months?— for three months? i don't know exactly what — for three months? i don't know exactly what was _ for three months? i don't know exactly what was known - for three months? i don't know exactly what was known and i for three months? i don't know i exactly what was known and when but i know for new information came forward after the story in the papers it under investigation and we take this issue seriously. it was a serious allegation in the story was concerning and we are making sure we investigate. last concerning and we are making sure we investitate. ., , ~ concerning and we are making sure we investitate. . , ,, . , investigate. last week it was william wragg. _ investigate. last week it was william wragg. there - investigate. last week it was william wragg. there have l investigate. last week it was i william wragg. there have been investigate. last week it was - william wragg. there have been more than a dozen conservative mps elected in 2019 who have been suspended from the party over various breaches of the rules. your boss rishi sunak promised when he moved into downing street he would lead a party and run a government with the highest standards of integrity so can you look at our

viewers in the face today and tell them that's what they are getting one week after week the stories emerge? it’s one week after week the stories emerte? �* , ., one week after week the stories emerte? �*, ., ., , emerge? it's not one political party that is dealing _ emerge? it's not one political party that is dealing with _ emerge? it's not one political party that is dealing with this, _ emerge? it's not one political party that is dealing with this, we've i that is dealing with this, we've seen this happen on all sites and the thing that i would stress is there are 650 mp5 the thing that i would stress is there are 650 mps in the vast majority are hard—working and decent people so yes it's always dispiriting for people including politicians to see these stories in the press. the vast majority of mps are decent people and yes that's right we investigate and make sure we're dealing with actions. it’s we're dealing with actions. it's often about — we're dealing with actions. it's often about how parties handle these kind of complaints and your colleague jake berry, kind of complaints and your colleaguejake berry, the former chair of the conservative party who has written about this this morning and written about the handling of complaints by the party about things that are happened in the conservatives, he writes the public will be forgiven for thinking the house of commons is filled with perverted six pests, tax evaders and

people with the self awareness and judgment of a broad bean. is he wrong? 0urviewers judgment of a broad bean. is he wrong? 0ur viewers often get in touch with us and say who are these people and why do they think it's ok to behave like this? i people and why do they think it's ok to behave like this?— to behave like this? i cannot speak for broad beans, _ to behave like this? i cannot speak for broad beans, they _ to behave like this? i cannot speak for broad beans, they have - to behave like this? i cannot speak for broad beans, they have been i for broad beans, they have been maligned there but the truth is this is very serious and most mps are very decent people, very hard—working and they care about the country and their constituents. this is a very small minority of people and one of the things i have done throughout my political career is try and encourage more people to come into politics so it's important i stress that. come into politics so it's important l stress that-— i stress that. finally, there's been a buildin: i stress that. finally, there's been a building story — i stress that. finally, there's been a building story in _ i stress that. finally, there's been a building story in the _ i stress that. finally, there's been a building story in the last - i stress that. finally, there's been a building story in the last couplel a building story in the last couple of days that we mentioned already about the met police and its treatment of a jewish man who appeared while a pro—palestinian rally was taking place and a policeman essentially told him he should not be there. can you confirm the home secretary has written to the home secretary has written to the met commissioner about what happened? he the met commissioner about what ha ened? . , the met commissioner about what hauened? , .,

happened? he has but let me say what i think has happened _ happened? he has but let me say what i think has happened is _ happened? he has but let me say what i think has happened is a _ happened? he has but let me say what i think has happened is a serious i i think has happened is a serious misstep because we cannot say to people or particular groups in society that their very presence as a provocation. you don't want anyone of any community to feel like that which is how thejewish community has been made to feel so i think it's right the met apologise, i can confirm the home secretary has been in contact with them but the point i would make is the person ultimately has responsibility to make sure the met is accountable as the labour london mayor and i think it's right he acts. �* a. , london mayor and i think it's right he acts. . u , ., london mayor and i think it's right heacts. , ., he acts. accept the home secretary is the person _ he acts. accept the home secretary is the person with _ he acts. accept the home secretary is the person with the _ he acts. accept the home secretary is the person with the palmer- he acts. accept the home secretary is the person with the palmer to i is the person with the palmer to hire and fire.— hire and fire. actually, it is the labour london _ hire and fire. actually, it is the labour london mayor - hire and fire. actually, it is the labour london mayor who i hire and fire. actually, it is the labour london mayor who was| labour london mayor who was responsible for the met. the home secretary has _ responsible for the met. the home secretary has the _ responsible for the met. the home secretary has the power _ responsible for the met. the home secretary has the power to - responsible for the met. the home secretary has the power to hire i responsible for the met. the home | secretary has the power to hire and fire so should the met commissioner mark rowley be part of what has happened in the last few days? these happened in the last few days? those are questions — happened in the last few days? those are questions for _ happened in the last few days? those are questions for the _ happened in the last few days? those are questions for the home _ are questions for the home secretary, i know he will meet with ministers in the coming days but the really important thing is we get

policing right. if you look at what happened in this incident, a member of the public has been told that they cannot go about their daily life, walk around the streets of london because of their identity and thatis london because of their identity and that is not what equality means in society. d0 that is not what equality means in socie . ,, ., that is not what equality means in socie . . society. do you as a cabinet minister— society. do you as a cabinet minister believe _ society. do you as a cabinet minister believe mark i society. do you as a cabinet. minister believe mark rowley society. do you as a cabinet - minister believe mark rowley should lose his job? minister believe mark rowley should lose hisjob? i minister believe mark rowley should lose hisjob?— lose his “ob? i personally would not to that lose his job? i personally would not to that far lose his job? i personally would not go that far because _ lose his job? i personally would not go that far because i _ lose his job? i personally would not go that far because i haven't - lose his job? i personally would not go that far because i haven't had i go that far because i haven't had the conversations with them and i do not understand what he will say to the home secretary and those conversations need to take place but i think it's important we stand by the jewish i think it's important we stand by thejewish community and other communities and say we will not stand for this, it is not what equality means in society. claire coutinho, great _ equality means in society. claire coutinho, great to _ equality means in society. claire coutinho, great to have - equality means in society. claire coutinho, great to have you i equality means in society. claire j coutinho, great to have you with equality means in society. claire i coutinho, great to have you with us for the first time and i hope you will come back to see us soon. thank you. what do you think? let us know. email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use the hashtag #bbclaurak and and you can sign up now

for our newsletter on thursdays which you can sign up to at bbc.co.uk/lauraknewsletter and from this week, listen on bbc sounds. so what do our panel make of all this? chris, i have to come to you first. you have made a huge part of your life? were campaigning on climate and you are also trying to take the government to court over there backtracking, what you would describe... i backtracking, what you would describe. . ._ describe... i am,, iwant the opportunity _ describe... i am,, iwant the opportunity for— describe... i am,, iwant the opportunity forjudicial- describe... i am,, i want the| opportunity forjudicial review describe... i am,, i want the i opportunity forjudicial review for opportunity for judicial review for backtracking on the three poses you mentioned. ., backtracking on the three poses you mentioned. . ., backtracking on the three poses you mentioned. . . , . , , ., mentioned. claire gave perhaps a taste of what _ mentioned. claire gave perhaps a taste of what her _ mentioned. claire gave perhaps a taste of what her defence - mentioned. claire gave perhaps a taste of what her defence might l mentioned. claire gave perhaps a | taste of what her defence might be due in court but what you think of what she said? the due in court but what you think of what she said?— due in court but what you think of what she said? ,., ,., _ what she said? the government policy at the moment — what she said? the government policy at the moment are _ what she said? the government policy at the moment are not _ what she said? the government policy at the moment are not only _ what she said? the government policy at the moment are not only cooking i at the moment are not only cooking the planet but theyjustify it by cooking the books. she is saying we are ahead of all our targets. it doesn't vacate, it is the way that the data is presented and analysed. in a simple case if we are exporting oil or coal, but it isn't integrated into the figures is the fact it will

be burned in another part of the world so the total carbon cost when it comes to our country's achievements isn't calculated and nor do they calculate what is imported into the country. those figures are notjustifiable in the way they're being presented. but doesnt way they're being presented. but doesn't she have a point that a lot of our viewers get in touch and say i don't have thousands of pounds to spend on a heat pump or thousands of pounds 28 my house and the government perhaps is trying to give people a bit more room to breathe? they are giving people as they need at this time room to breathe but what about the children and grandchildren? if they can't afford that and many people who can't, we need a just transition over a period of time so that can become affordable but what wasn't mentioned in any of these conversations are the grotesque profits that are being made by our energy companies, the oil companies and gas companies, at a time when there is a very high degree of volatility in that market which has driven the cost of living crisis. had we not cut the green

stuff 13 years ago we would have been far ahead when it comes to renewables which are much cheaper than oil and gas and more resilient when it comes to pricing.— than oil and gas and more resilient when it comes to pricing. luke, what ou make when it comes to pricing. luke, what you make of — when it comes to pricing. luke, what you make of that? _ when it comes to pricing. luke, what you make of that? renewables i when it comes to pricing. luke, what you make of that? renewables like l you make of that? renewables like solar and wind _ you make of that? renewables like solar and wind are _ you make of that? renewables like solar and wind are a _ you make of that? renewables like solar and wind are a total - you make of that? renewables like solar and wind are a total of - you make of that? renewables like solar and wind are a total of 396 i you make of that? renewables like solar and wind are a total of 396 of| solar and wind are a total of 3% of the worldenergy _ solar and wind are a total of 3% of the worldenergy output. - solar and wind are a total of 3% of the worldenergy output. certainly| solar and wind are a total of 3% of. the worldenergy output. certainly in our lifetimes — the worldenergy output. certainly in our lifetimes we _ the worldenergy output. certainly in our lifetimes we will— the worldenergy output. certainly in our lifetimes we will continue - the worldenergy output. certainly in our lifetimes we will continue to i our lifetimes we will continue to rely very— our lifetimes we will continue to rely very heavily _ our lifetimes we will continue to rely very heavily on _ our lifetimes we will continue to i rely very heavily on hydrocarbons. energy— rely very heavily on hydrocarbons. energy costs — rely very heavily on hydrocarbons. energy costs in _ rely very heavily on hydrocarbons. energy costs in china _ rely very heavily on hydrocarbons. energy costs in china are - rely very heavily on hydrocarbons. energy costs in china are a - rely very heavily on hydrocarbons. energy costs in china are a fifth i rely very heavily on hydrocarbons. energy costs in china are a fifth of what _ energy costs in china are a fifth of what they— energy costs in china are a fifth of what they are _ energy costs in china are a fifth of what they are here, _ energy costs in china are a fifth of what they are here, half— energy costs in china are a fifth of what they are here, half of- energy costs in china are a fifth of what they are here, half of what i what they are here, half of what they are — what they are here, half of what they are here _ what they are here, half of what they are here in— what they are here, half of what they are here in america. - what they are here, half of what they are here in america. we i what they are here, half of whati they are here in america. we pay higher— they are here in america. we pay higher energy— they are here in america. we pay higher energy costs— they are here in america. we pay higher energy costs than - they are here in america. we pay higher energy costs than virtually any other— higher energy costs than virtually any other country. _ higher energy costs than virtually any other country. if— higher energy costs than virtually any other country. if we - higher energy costs than virtually any other country. if we want i higher energy costs than virtually any other country. if we want to i any other country. if we want to deindustrialisation_ any other country. if we want to deindustrialisation and - any other country. if we want to deindustrialisation and never. any other country. if we want to deindustrialisation and never do any other country. if we want to i deindustrialisation and never do any more _ deindustrialisation and never do any more manufacturing _ deindustrialisation and never do any more manufacturing and _ deindustrialisation and never do any more manufacturing and cease i deindustrialisation and never do any more manufacturing and cease all. more manufacturing and cease all energy— more manufacturing and cease all energy intensive _ more manufacturing and cease all energy intensive activities - more manufacturing and cease all energy intensive activities in - more manufacturing and cease all energy intensive activities in thisl energy intensive activities in this country. — energy intensive activities in this country. net _ energy intensive activities in this country, net zero _ energy intensive activities in this country, net zero is _ energy intensive activities in this country, net zero is the - energy intensive activities in this country, net zero is the answer. i energy intensive activities in this i country, net zero is the answer. but the fact— country, net zero is the answer. but the fact of— country, net zero is the answer. but the fact of the — country, net zero is the answer. but the fact of the matter _ country, net zero is the answer. but the fact of the matter is _ country, net zero is the answer. but the fact of the matter is we - country, net zero is the answer. but the fact of the matter is we are - the fact of the matter is we are very— the fact of the matter is we are very heavily _ the fact of the matter is we are very heavily and _ the fact of the matter is we are very heavily and increasingly i very heavily and increasingly dependent _ very heavily and increasingly dependent on _ very heavily and increasingly dependent on imports - very heavily and increasingly dependent on imports from i very heavily and increasingly - dependent on imports from places like chine — dependent on imports from places like china. china _ dependent on imports from places like china. china is— dependent on imports from places like china. china is building - dependent on imports from places like china. china is building the i like china. china is building the equivalent— like china. china is building the equivalent of— like china. china is building the equivalent of one _ like china. china is building the equivalent of one coal—fired - like china. china is building the i equivalent of one coal—fired power station _ equivalent of one coal—fired power station every — equivalent of one coal—fired power station every two _ equivalent of one coal—fired power station every two weeks. - equivalent of one coal—fired power station every two weeks. buil-

equivalent of one coal-fired power station every two weeks. but china is also investing _ station every two weeks. but china is also investing massively - station every two weeks. but china is also investing massively in - station every two weeks. but china | is also investing massively in green technology and there has been a huge change in other countries and the point chris stark was making is of the countries are forging ahead with this and the uk is not even though it originally made lots of progress. china is increasing all its time its reliance — china is increasing all its time its reliance on — china is increasing all its time its reliance on fossil— china is increasing all its time its reliance on fossil fuels. - china is increasing all its time its reliance on fossil fuels. the - china is increasing all its time its reliance on fossil fuels. the facti reliance on fossil fuels. the fact of the _ reliance on fossil fuels. the fact of the matter— reliance on fossil fuels. the fact of the matter is, _ reliance on fossil fuels. the fact of the matter is, renewables . reliance on fossil fuels. the fact| of the matter is, renewables are reliance on fossil fuels. the fact - of the matter is, renewables are not the foreseeable _ of the matter is, renewables are not the foreseeable answer _ of the matter is, renewables are not the foreseeable answer because - of the matter is, renewables are not the foreseeable answer because the| the foreseeable answer because the technology— the foreseeable answer because the technology is — the foreseeable answer because the technology is not _ the foreseeable answer because the technology is not there _ the foreseeable answer because the technology is not there for - the foreseeable answer because the technology is not there for storage. | technology is not there for storage. we witi— technology is not there for storage. we will have — technology is not there for storage. we will have to _ technology is not there for storage. we will have to spend _ technology is not there for storage. we will have to spend hundreds - technology is not there for storage. | we will have to spend hundreds and hundreds— we will have to spend hundreds and hundreds of— we will have to spend hundreds and hundreds of billions _ we will have to spend hundreds and hundreds of billions on _ we will have to spend hundreds and hundreds of billions on our- we will have to spend hundreds and hundreds of billions on our grade i we will have to spend hundreds and hundreds of billions on our grade in| hundreds of billions on our grade in order— hundreds of billions on our grade in order to _ hundreds of billions on our grade in order to make — hundreds of billions on our grade in order to make that _ hundreds of billions on our grade in order to make that work. _ hundreds of billions on our grade in order to make that work. the - order to make that work. the technology— order to make that work. the technology isn't _ order to make that work. the technology isn't available. i order to make that work. the technology isn't available. layla moran, technology isn't available. layla moran. what — technology isn't available. layla moran, what do _ technology isn't available. layla moran, what do you _ technology isn't available. layla moran, what do you say. - technology isn't available. layla moran, what do you say. i - technology isn't available. layla | moran, what do you say. i agree technology isn't available. layla - moran, what do you say. i agree the ureat moran, what do you say. i agree the great needs — moran, what do you say. i agree the great needs upgrading, _ moran, what do you say. i agree the great needs upgrading, a _ great needs upgrading, a long—standing problem. ithink great needs upgrading, a long—standing problem. i think we have a _ long—standing problem. i think we have a huge opportunity in this country. — have a huge opportunity in this country, shetland, we have some of the most _ country, shetland, we have some of the most world leading renewable technology nascent they are desperate to get off the ground and i desperate to get off the ground and i don't _ desperate to get off the ground and i don't think it isjust about government subsidy. one of the things— government subsidy. one of the things that was a problem in 2016 when _ things that was a problem in 2016 when david cameron got all the new buitds— when david cameron got all the new builds having to be net zero was

that actually it suppressed the market — that actually it suppressed the market. one of the reasons why heat pumps _ market. one of the reasons why heat pumps are _ market. one of the reasons why heat pumps are so expensive is because at that point— pumps are so expensive is because at that point the market got the signal from government that they didn't need _ from government that they didn't need to— from government that they didn't need to keep developing the technologies or innovate and we don't _ technologies or innovate and we don't need to do this. meanwhile 1.5 million _ don't need to do this. meanwhile 1.5 million homes in this country are not built— million homes in this country are not built to — million homes in this country are not built to net zero and think how nruch _ not built to net zero and think how much money those people would have saved _ much money those people would have saved if _ much money those people would have saved if we _ much money those people would have saved if we would have kept with that policy. but saved if we would have kept with that policy-— that policy. but do you think that we are seeing — that policy. but do you think that we are seeing politicians' - that policy. but do you think that i we are seeing politicians' attitudes to all of this changing. chris stark says the collective fear and it has changed but do you feel that? i says the collective fear and it has changed but do you feel that? i have to say when — changed but do you feel that? i have to say when rishi _ changed but do you feel that? i have to say when rishi sunak _ changed but do you feel that? i have to say when rishi sunak stood - changed but do you feel that? i have to say when rishi sunak stood up - changed but do you feel that? i have to say when rishi sunak stood up and .ave to say when rishi sunak stood up and gave that _ to say when rishi sunak stood up and gave that speech i wondered the same thin- gave that speech i wondered the same thing chris— gave that speech i wondered the same thing chris stark said. is he trying to introduce another wedge issue in the 20 _ to introduce another wedge issue in the 20 days of conservative government without any ideas and therefore — government without any ideas and therefore just looking for things —— dwindling — therefore just looking for things —— dwindling days. i think it's really regrettable. i hope he comes back to what he _ regrettable. i hope he comes back to what he always says which he is doing _ what he always says which he is doing this — what he always says which he is doing this for his children stop that is— doing this for his children stop that is why we need to be thinking about— that is why we need to be thinking about it _ that is why we need to be thinking about it but actually i think there are good — about it but actually i think there are good market reasons for doing

this _ are good market reasons for doing this it— are good market reasons for doing this. . . are good market reasons for doing this. , ., ., , , . this. it is hard of the public because — this. it is hard of the public because of— this. it is hard of the public because of the _ this. it is hard of the public because of the cost - this. it is hard of the public because of the cost of- this. it is hard of the publicj because of the cost of this, this. it is hard of the public - because of the cost of this, rightly or wrongly a transition for a green economy is a very expensive price tag. what was interesting, i want to put this to you, chris, because people know you for all your work on springwatch and all the amazingly programmes but they also know you could be a climate processor and chris stark is a big fan of this agenda outside in our interview climate campaigners are their own worst enemy and the counterprotest you have been on in the science easy and yesterday in bath, you have turned some people off. what do you say to that? i turned some people off. what do you sa to that? . . turned some people off. what do you say to that?— say to that? i am a great fan of chris stark. _ say to that? i am a great fan of chris stark. the _ say to that? i am a great fan of chris stark. the climate - say to that? i am a great fan ofj chris stark. the climate change committee are where we get a lot of our information. they are a trusted source and i wish more people would listen to them for top when it comes to climate protests, sometimes we have made mistakes.— to climate protests, sometimes we | have made mistakes.- there to climate protests, sometimes we - have made mistakes.- there are have made mistakes. where? there are three thin . s have made mistakes. where? there are three things we — have made mistakes. where? there are three things we need _ have made mistakes. where? there are three things we need to _ have made mistakes. where? there are three things we need to get _ have made mistakes. where? there are three things we need to get right, - three things we need to get right, we need to make sure our motives are clear, our method works to deliver our message. very often what is focused on the media is the method and the message doesn't get across

with this point i will seize the opportunity to do the job ofjust of oil which is to get the message across. what they want is a just transition away from fossil fuels to renewable energy —— just stop oil. the message often doesn't get across because the right—wing media is obsessed with the methodology. sometimes it is because if people are inconvenient and i get stuck on the motorway for hours because somebody has glued themselves to a road that isn't what the media saying, people are reacting to what is really disruptive.— is really disruptive. interesting thou:h is really disruptive. interesting though because _ is really disruptive. interesting though because what - is really disruptive. interesting though because what happens| is really disruptive. interesting i though because what happens in is really disruptive. interesting - though because what happens in that situation where you have a radical front of you like is that people see that and i think these wretched just stop oil people are problem, but they are right, things are getting critical when it comes to climate change. what i will do instead, i will support greenpeace and friends of the earth and the social change than have noticed this and there is an upsurge in support for those less radical organisations who are dealing with climate breakdown and biodiversity loss, so what i think we have to accept is that within the

climate protest movement we need a portfolio of techniques. there are people who will sign petitions, people who will sign petitions, people come in peaceful demonstrations like the one we were engaged with yesterday in bath which was actually more performance art than protest, but you do need that radicalflank than protest, but you do need that radical flank as well.— than protest, but you do need that radical flank as well. luke, what do ou think radical flank as well. luke, what do you think when _ radical flank as well. luke, what do you think when you _ radical flank as well. luke, what do you think when you see _ radical flank as well. luke, what do you think when you see the - radical flank as well. luke, what do you think when you see the radicall you think when you see the radical flight or the idea thatjust stop oil. people going on holiday this summer? i oil. people going on holiday this summer? . ., ., , , . ., summer? i am all for free speech and su lies summer? i am all for free speech and supplies demonstrations, _ summer? i am all for free speech and supplies demonstrations, but - summer? i am all for free speech and supplies demonstrations, but i - summer? i am all for free speech and supplies demonstrations, but i think. supplies demonstrations, but i think ordinary— supplies demonstrations, but i think ordinary people _ supplies demonstrations, but i think ordinary people want _ supplies demonstrations, but i think ordinary people want to _ supplies demonstrations, but i think ordinary people want to be - supplies demonstrations, but i think ordinary people want to be able - supplies demonstrations, but i think ordinary people want to be able to l ordinary people want to be able to drive _ ordinary people want to be able to drive a _ ordinary people want to be able to drive a car— ordinary people want to be able to drive a car and _ ordinary people want to be able to drive a car and fight _ ordinary people want to be able to drive a car and fight on _ ordinary people want to be able to drive a car and fight on holiday. i drive a car and fight on holiday. and i_ drive a car and fight on holiday. and i think— drive a car and fight on holiday. and i think the _ drive a car and fight on holiday. and i think the hysterical- and i think the hysterical doomsayers_ and i think the hysterical doomsayers who - and i think the hysterical doomsayers who have i and i think the hysterical. doomsayers who have been and i think the hysterical- doomsayers who have been for decades, — doomsayers who have been for decades, at— doomsayers who have been for decades, al gore _ doomsayers who have been for decades, al gore and - doomsayers who have been for decades, al gore and so- doomsayers who have been for decades, al gore and so forth, j decades, al gore and so forth, predicting _ decades, al gore and so forth, predicting the _ decades, al gore and so forth, predicting the end _ decades, al gore and so forth, predicting the end of— decades, al gore and so forth, predicting the end of the - decades, al gore and so forth, l predicting the end of the world, decades, al gore and so forth, - predicting the end of the world, an existential— predicting the end of the world, an existential crisis, _ predicting the end of the world, an existential crisis, are _ predicting the end of the world, an existential crisis, are shooting - existential crisis, are shooting themselves— existential crisis, are shooting themselves in— existential crisis, are shooting themselves in the _ existential crisis, are shooting themselves in the foot, - existential crisis, are shooting l themselves in the foot, because ordinary— themselves in the foot, because ordinary people _ themselves in the foot, because ordinary people actually - themselves in the foot, because ordinary people actually do - themselves in the foot, because ordinary people actually do not. themselves in the foot, because - ordinary people actually do not want and witi— ordinary people actually do not want and will not — ordinary people actually do not want and will not vote _ ordinary people actually do not want and will not vote i— ordinary people actually do not want and will not vote i believed - ordinary people actually do not want and will not vote i believed to - ordinary people actually do not want and will not vote i believed to be - and will not vote i believed to be poorer _ and will not vote i believed to be poorer and — and will not vote i believed to be poorer and colder. _ and will not vote i believed to be poorer and colder. the _ and will not vote i believed to be poorer and colder. the fact - and will not vote i believed to be poorer and colder. the fact of. and will not vote i believed to bei poorer and colder. the fact of the ntatter— poorer and colder. the fact of the matter is — poorer and colder. the fact of the matter is that _ poorer and colder. the fact of the matter is that it _ poorer and colder. the fact of the

matter is that it is _ poorer and colder. the fact of the matter is that it is easy _ poorer and colder. the fact of the matter is that it is easy for - poorer and colder. the fact of the matter is that it is easy for the i matter is that it is easy for the establishment, _ matter is that it is easy for the establishment, many- matter is that it is easy for the establishment, many of - matter is that it is easy for the establishment, many of whomj matter is that it is easy for the - establishment, many of whom have a vested _ establishment, many of whom have a vested interest — establishment, many of whom have a vested interest in _ establishment, many of whom have a vested interest in the _ establishment, many of whom have a vested interest in the whole - establishment, many of whom have a vested interest in the whole climate i vested interest in the whole climate campaign. _ vested interest in the whole climate campaign, to— vested interest in the whole climate campaign, to think _ vested interest in the whole climate campaign, to think they— vested interest in the whole climate campaign, to think they will- vested interest in the whole climate campaign, to think they willjust - campaign, to think they willjust put up _ campaign, to think they willjust put up with— campaign, to think they willjust put up with cold _ campaign, to think they willjust put up with cold homes - campaign, to think they willjust put up with cold homes and - campaign, to think they willjust put up with cold homes and not| put up with cold homes and not ftving _ put up with cold homes and not flying on— put up with cold homes and not flying on holiday— put up with cold homes and not flying on holiday or— put up with cold homes and not flying on holiday or driving - put up with cold homes and not flying on holiday or driving the| flying on holiday or driving the cars — flying on holiday or driving the cars. ~ . flying on holiday or driving the cars. . ., , cars. what about the ordinary people of dubai last — cars. what about the ordinary people of dubai last week, _ cars. what about the ordinary people of dubai last week, the _ cars. what about the ordinary people of dubai last week, the ordinary - of dubai last week, the ordinary people of the global south that have just suffered the hottest year ever where the crops have failed, there has been excessive wildfires? whereas the evidence any of that is connected — whereas the evidence any of that is connected to — whereas the evidence any of that is connected to carbon _ whereas the evidence any of that is connected to carbon emissions? . whereas the evidence any of that is connected to carbon emissions? itl connected to carbon emissions? doesn't come from toby young's connected to carbon emissions?- doesn't come from toby young's daily septic which is put together by a bunch of professionals with close affiliations to the positio industry but something called science. loggia but something called science. layla moran. as but something called science. layla moran- as a — but something called science. layla moran. as a former— but something called science. layla moran. as a former science - but something called science. layla moran. as a former science teacher but something called science. layla| moran. as a former science teacher i will also defend _ moran. as a former science teacher i will also defend science. _ moran. as a former science teacher i will also defend science. i _ moran. as a former science teacher i will also defend science. i think- moran. as a former science teacher i will also defend science. i think it. will also defend science. i think it is important to say there are people who are _ is important to say there are people who are sceptics and i think it is important — who are sceptics and i think it is important we engage with them but don't necessarily have to agree but

if you _ don't necessarily have to agree but if you took— don't necessarily have to agree but if you look at the balance of risk, tet's_ if you look at the balance of risk, let's say— if you look at the balance of risk, let's say you are right and that none _ let's say you are right and that none of— let's say you are right and that none of this has to do with climate, what _ none of this has to do with climate, what are _ none of this has to do with climate, what are we — none of this has to do with climate, what are we doing, we will be investing _ what are we doing, we will be investing in new technologies and innovation — investing in new technologies and innovation and it might actually lead to— innovation and it might actually lead to new science and new interesting things we can make money from but _ interesting things we can make money from but let's imagine just for a moment— from but let's imagine just for a moment that you are not right and that the _ moment that you are not right and that the science is right and what if we _ that the science is right and what if we don't — that the science is right and what if we don't do anything, you talk about— if we don't do anything, you talk about poorer and colder, that would be catastrophic and i'm am sure no one wants — be catastrophic and i'm am sure no one wants to— be catastrophic and i'm am sure no one wants to put philip. we be catastrophic and i'm am sure no one wants to put philip.— one wants to put philip. we will come back _ one wants to put philip. we will come back to _ one wants to put philip. we will come back to planet _ one wants to put philip. we will come back to planet and - one wants to put philip. we will come back to planet and a - one wants to put philip. we will i come back to planet and a second with shabana mahmood from the labour party but briefly, layla moran, you say you were talking about your family stuck in gaza, people will want to know, are they ok? irate family stuck in gaza, people will want to know, are they ok? we got them out. want to know, are they ok? we got them out- i— want to know, are they ok? we got them out. i still— want to know, are they ok? we got them out. i still can't _ want to know, are they ok? we got them out. i still can't quite - them out. i still can't quite betieve _ them out. i still can't quite believe it. and i can't remember when _ believe it. and i can't remember when it— believe it. and i can't remember when it was. we had already lost a family— when it was. we had already lost a family member, their gall bladder had ruptured and they needed a hospital— had ruptured and they needed a hospital and they sadly passed away because _ hospital and they sadly passed away because i_ hospital and they sadly passed away because i couldn't get to one. it then— because i couldn't get to one. it then took— because i couldn't get to one. it then took months to get the paperwork in order and i did this incredibly— paperwork in order and i did this incredibly brave day where they

waited — incredibly brave day where they waited for a ceasefire and what we need _ waited for a ceasefire and what we need above all gaza ceasefire, they shouldn't _ need above all gaza ceasefire, they shouldn't have had to do this. no one there — shouldn't have had to do this. no one there living in the help that his gaza — one there living in the help that his gaza right now should have ever had to _ his gaza right now should have ever had to deat— his gaza right now should have ever had to deal with this but i got across— had to deal with this but i got across to _ had to deal with this but i got across to rafah and it is incredible. all i will say is we feet— incredible. all i will say is we feel incredibly lucky, but in addition _ feel incredibly lucky, but in addition to the bombs that still pull, there is now a real risk of tens— pull, there is now a real risk of tens of— pull, there is now a real risk of tens of thousands of people dying from excess test because the london school _ from excess test because the london school of _ from excess test because the london school of hygiene and tropical medicine are suggesting 55,000 of the size _ medicine are suggesting 55,000 of the size of the days, 75,000 if there — the size of the days, 75,000 if there is— the size of the days, 75,000 if there is an _ the size of the days, 75,000 if there is an escalation, if they go into rafah, _ there is an escalation, if they go into rafah, that is on top of those who have — into rafah, that is on top of those who have died from the bombs. we need _ who have died from the bombs. we need a _ who have died from the bombs. we need a ceasefire and we need it now. please _ need a ceasefire and we need it now. please we _ need a ceasefire and we need it now. please. we are sorry to hear about one of your family members but please that others have tried to —— managed to get out. now as we heard earlier, chris stark of the climate change committee had

a message for labour as well as for the government. he said he wished keir starmer could be more "bold" on climate change. labour's been pumping its promise of clean green energy by 2030 — keir starmer and co made a visit to teesside this week to promote green ports — but remember in february theyjunked the promise to spend £28 billion a year to make things like that happen. shabana mahmood is the shadowjustice secretary and she's back with us. nice to have you here again. we heard from chris stark. he thinks? should be bolder. we know you jump to your £28 billion a year spending stop he is right that labour has gone back on its ambition? absolute thin u. gone back on its ambition? absolute thing up when _ gone back on its ambition? absolute thing up. when we _ gone back on its ambition? absolute thing up. when we go _ gone back on its ambition? absolute thing up. when we go into _ gone back on its ambition? absolute thing up. when we go into the - gone back on its ambition? absolute thing up. when we go into the next. thing up. when we go into the next general election our promise on clean energy by 2030, making britain a clean energy superpower, setting up a clean energy superpower, setting up gb energy headquartered in scotland to invest in renewables, that will be by far and away our biggest spending commitment going into that election campaign. it presents a huge difference and

change in approach between us and the current tory government who have resided over brightly a failure when it comes to our energy security, so it comes to our energy security, so it is a big commitment we are making. keir starmer has been out and about with ed and rachel, talking about how we upgrade our ports, so this is an area that we care about, we have strong policy in this area and if we can meet, if we are elected and we get a clean energy by 2030 that is a game changing moment for this country. what the problem is you still have the ambition but you will spend a lot less. that is clear. you have massively decreased the amount of money you have committed to doing all of that, so it isn't credible, is it, to make the same promise without the price tag? irate is it, to make the same promise without the price tag?— is it, to make the same promise without the price tag? we have had to recalibrate _ without the price tag? we have had to recalibrate our— without the price tag? we have had to recalibrate our plans _ without the price tag? we have had to recalibrate our plans given - without the price tag? we have had to recalibrate our plans given what| to recalibrate our plans given what is the likely economic inheritance that this government will be for whoever is in the next government. we have had to do that. we offer sea want to make sure everything we put forward is credible, fiscal responsibility is the absolute basis for all of our plans and we have to

make sure any borrowing that the kurds within our own fiscal rules so we have had to scale back but that doesn't stop us from having an incredibly ambitious plan to get a clean power by 2030. we can do that within the commitments we have made. we have laid out the detail of our spending plans. what will come from them in full text, but will come from recalibrated plans on borrowing but some of the same to make sure we can have clean energy and we secure and get our bills down by 2030. what and get our bills down by 2030. what ou are b and get our bills down by 2030. what you are by your— and get our bills down by 2030. what you are by your own _ and get our bills down by 2030. what you are by your own admission scaling back and it is also the case that when you promise as you have this morning when clear summer promises as he does a lot, but you will have clean power by 2030, it is a case it is highly likely that fossil fuels also have to be part of that, isn't it? fossil fuels also have to be part of that. isn't it?— fossil fuels also have to be part of that, isn't it? personally on how it is aid that, isn't it? personally on how it is paid for. — that, isn't it? personally on how it is paid for. we _ that, isn't it? personally on how it is paid for, we now _ that, isn't it? personally on how it is paid for, we now it _ that, isn't it? personally on how it is paid for, we now it is _ that, isn't it? personally on how it is paid for, we now it is a - that, isn't it? personally on how it is paid for, we now it is a ways - is paid for, we now it is a ways been a case and all the experts and all the modelling in this area have shown that most of the money for getting to clean energy by 2030 is ashley going to come from private

investment and what businesses need is certainty from a government that is certainty from a government that is committed to this agenda, that has a proper plan to make it a reality and that is the difference between us and the tory party. because they have been talking a good game on rhetoric and then having an extra special crisis. irate having an extra special crisis. we were talking of... but how is it realistic, shabana mahmood, that when you will spend less money and at the moment it takes on average 13 years to get a wind farm connected to the electricity grid, if you are lucky enough to get into power in the autumn to 2a, you would have five years to have a complete transformation, spending less cash to make it happen. it is not realistic, is it? independent ex - erts realistic, is it? independent experts have _ realistic, is it? independent experts have looked - realistic, is it? independent experts have looked at - realistic, is it? independent experts have looked at ourl realistic, is it? independent - experts have looked at our plans to get to clean power by 2030 and there is no doubt this will be a challenging target we have set for

ourselves but we are not prepared to sit back and think we are in a doom period and we can do nothing. government can achieve huge things if it has the political will to do so and banks money available but also takes the steps to unlock private sector investment which will provide the money taken together in order to get a clean energy by 2030. it's so necessary if we are going to be energy independent and not relying on dictators abroad and get bills down. you relying on dictators abroad and get bills down. ., ._ . ., , relying on dictators abroad and get bills down. ., . ., , _ bills down. you say clean energy by 2030 but do _ bills down. you say clean energy by 2030 but do you — bills down. you say clean energy by 2030 but do you acknowledge - bills down. you say clean energy by 2030 but do you acknowledge us i bills down. you say clean energy by i 2030 but do you acknowledge us keir starmer dead when it was originally announced in 22 that fossil fuels might still be there as a fallback? there is always going to have to be a strategic gas reserve for when the wind and the sunshine are not available and the definition of what clean power it looks like that includes a strategic reserve. the romise includes a strategic reserve. the promise that _ includes a strategic reserve. the promise that you make time and again of clean and green energy is not

really... of clean and green energy is not reall ~ . of clean and green energy is not reall... , , ,'. really... we will be self-sufficient b 2030, really... we will be self-sufficient by 2030, investing _ really... we will be self-sufficient by 2030, investing in _ really... we will be self-sufficient by 2030, investing in renewables| really... we will be self-sufficient - by 2030, investing in renewables and new technology around carbon capture, storage and hydrogen, it is a new system but you need a reserve and that has always been the case and that has always been the case and our policy position but it does not mean to say you cannot go further and faster and you cannot double onshore wind and triple solar as we plan to do and quadruple offshore wind in order to get us to energy security by 2030. than energy security by 2030. an important point you make because viewers will hear time and again labour party politicians saying clean green power by 2030, you've acknowledged that will require fossil fuels as a fallback and thank you for clarifying that. it’s fossil fuels as a fallback and thank you for clarifying that.— you for clarifying that. it's a normal thing _ you for clarifying that. it's a normal thing to _ you for clarifying that. it's a normal thing to have - you for clarifying that. it's a normal thing to have a - you for clarifying that. it's a - normal thing to have a strategic reserve, of course we need that but that does not stop us from producing more energy through clean sources and investing in technology that will enable more systemwide change

as we move towards 2030.— will enable more systemwide change as we move towards 2030. you've made that clear and — as we move towards 2030. you've made that clear and thank _ as we move towards 2030. you've made that clear and thank you. _ as we move towards 2030. you've made that clear and thank you. you _ as we move towards 2030. you've made that clear and thank you. you hope - that clear and thank you. you hope to be thejustice secretary in charge of law, courts and the presence. we understand you are making a big speech tomorrow talking about international law, what will you say? about international law, what will ou sa ? ., , , about international law, what will ou sa ? , about international law, what will ousa? you say? hopefully you will pay some attention tomorrow _ you say? hopefully you will pay some attention tomorrow evening - you say? hopefully you will pay some attention tomorrow evening but - you say? hopefully you will pay some attention tomorrow evening but i - attention tomorrow evening but i will be talking about the rule of law, a fundamental british value. i think the government with the attacks onjudges and think the government with the attacks on judges and courts and the independence of the judiciary has called into question britain's commitment to the rule of law and that has an impact on our global standing and the way we do business in the world and what we are known for the soft power we exercise around the world. i think it's time politicians stand up for the independence of the judiciary, that respects the separation of powers in the constitution and do not go around as liz truss is doing with plans to abolish the supreme court.

that's unacceptable to attack the independentjudiciary and the courts because rule of law is a fundamental british value and it's how we underwrite business in the country and how we enforce our laws. [10 and how we enforce our laws. do you think beyond political— and how we enforce our laws. do you think beyond political rhetoric- think beyond political rhetoric there is a serious problem? there is. if ou there is a serious problem? there is. if you become _ there is a serious problem? there is. if you become known - there is a serious problem? there is. if you become known as - there is a serious problem? there is. if you become known as a - there is a serious problem? there i is. if you become known as a country whose word cannot be relied upon, signing up to international treaties, but they themselves sign up treaties, but they themselves sign up to and then decide they will break as the government tried to do in a specific and limited by the international law they just in a specific and limited by the international law theyjust might, i think that has a cost, diplomatic cost, cost when it comes to agreements and making deals with other countries around the world. they will think hung on, can we trust you will abide by the terms of a treaty and its a real thing that has a real impact. the a treaty and its a real thing that has a real impact.— a treaty and its a real thing that has a real impact. the last time the labour party _ has a real impact. the last time the labour party was — has a real impact. the last time the labour party was in _ has a real impact. the last time the labour party was in power- has a real impact. the last time the labour party was in power they - labour party was in power they ignored the right to give prisoners the vote of four years and years and

i'm interested to know, last week the european court of human rights ruled in favour of a group of swiss women that their human rights had been breached by inadequate swiss action to tackle climate change, is that right do you think? governments will alwa s that right do you think? governments will always make _ that right do you think? governments will always make judgments, - will always make judgments, sometimes they will always makejudgments, sometimes they agreement and sometimes they agreement and sometimes they agreement and sometimes they do not but when you react to a judgment, do not attack the independence of the judiciary. if you were justice secretary, the independence of the judiciary. if you werejustice secretary, would you think that's ok? if you were justice secretary, would you think that's ok?— you think that's ok? when we talk about prisoners _ you think that's ok? when we talk about prisoners voting _ you think that's ok? when we talk about prisoners voting rights, - you think that's ok? when we talk about prisoners voting rights, thatj about prisoners voting rights, that was a judgment of the european court of human rights based on the european convention of human rights which we implemented in our own domestic legislation but when the court in europe makes a decision there is a wide margin of appreciation and huge discretion for how a state goes about remedying... there is discretion for the state and how they remedy the defect that the court has banned so it is the case in our country we have abided by the decision but done so by

retaining prohibition on prisoners in present voting but allowing those on remand or out on temporary license to vote. you can find ways to implement a judgment which respect your national position on certain issues.— certain issues. people will listen with interest _ certain issues. people will listen with interest for _ certain issues. people will listen with interest for your _ certain issues. people will listen with interest for your speech - with interest for your speech tomorrow and finally we have been talking about conservative mps who overtime have been suspended but what about labour mps? a number of investigations going on, some in the case of nick brown who used to be a chief whip for many years, being investigated since 2022? are you by that? irate investigated since 2022? are you by that? ~ ., investigated since 2022? are you by that? . ., ., , , ,, that? we have an independent process and there is a — that? we have an independent process and there is a big _ that? we have an independent process and there is a big difference _ that? we have an independent process and there is a big difference in - and there is a big difference in approach between us and other parties in parliament. ifeel embarrassed every time one of the scandals on false on television and i wonder what people think of all of us as mps but i refuse to accept the charge all parties at the same. all parties have had problems with mps

but i think we had taken an approach which gets us criticised because investigations take time but as soon as a complaint is made we suspend pretty quickly once a complaint is made. then we leave it over to an independent investigation, independent investigation, independent panels that make the decision advised by lawyers and that is a huge change in how we operate as a party and some things unfortunately take time and i cannot comment on that but it's better to have an independent process. shabana mahmood, have an independent process. shabana mahmood. always _ have an independent process. shabana mahmood, always great _ have an independent process. shabana mahmood, always great to _ have an independent process. shabana mahmood, always great to have - have an independent process. shabana mahmood, always great to have you i mahmood, always great to have you with us. thank you. in a second we're going to hear from some of the brave or crazy souls about to get going for the 26—and—a—bit miles of the london marathon. this morning we've heard how the man who judges the government's progress on climate change reckons the prime minister's decisions have set the uk back. the energy secretary claire couthino defended the government's record. let's ta ke let's take a step back and look at our records. we are one of the top

20 largest economies to have parked our emissions and we've done that in a sensible and pragmatic way and we want to keep doing that and we've seen the economy grow by 80% and we've been protecting household finances. , ., , finances. deborah says the conservatives _ finances. deborah says the conservatives and - finances. deborah says the conservatives and labour. finances. deborah says the - conservatives and labour need to commit to a net zero, it's far too important not to. david says we cannot rely on renewables solely, the sun does not always shine on the wind does not always blow. let's have a final word with the panel. the investigations into mps. layla moran, there is a story about one of your colleagues paying thousands of pounds to party officials to do work on her behalf in the constituency stop do you think yours are entitled to look at what happens and think who are these people? irate what happens and think who are these --eole? ~ . what happens and think who are these neale? . ., what happens and think who are these --eole?~ . ,. , what happens and think who are these n-eole?. ., ,. , , people? we all welcome scrutiny but are colleagues _

people? we all welcome scrutiny but are colleagues of— people? we all welcome scrutiny but are colleagues of the _ people? we all welcome scrutiny but are colleagues of the study _ people? we all welcome scrutiny but are colleagues of the study is - people? we all welcome scrutiny but are colleagues of the study is about | are colleagues of the study is about following the rules, there is no suggestion in the piece itself she has broken rules which is completely different, legitimate scrutiny of mps is fine but that's not the sleaze coming from the tory and the labour party. the sleaze coming from the tory and the labour party-— sleaze coming from the tory and the labour party. the impression people aet what labour party. the impression people get what collectively _ labour party. the impression people get what collectively as _ labour party. the impression people get what collectively as a _ labour party. the impression people get what collectively as a group - labour party. the impression people get what collectively as a group of i get what collectively as a group of people you get up to. the get what collectively as a group of people you get up to.— people you get up to. the stuff comint people you get up to. the stuff coming out _ people you get up to. the stuff coming out of _ people you get up to. the stuff coming out of the _ people you get up to. the stuff coming out of the tory - people you get up to. the stuff coming out of the tory party i people you get up to. the stuff coming out of the tory party in | coming out of the tory party in particular it reminds me, i was 15 in the 97 election and it was the dying days of the john in the 97 election and it was the dying days of thejohn major government and you saw story after story and you have to wonder is a complacency or whatever? the numbers are extraordinary and it comes up on the doorsteps and people tore us with the same brush and i think all three of us say it pains us in any story is particularly around the sleaze and scandal and people breaking rules, none of that is acceptable but you know what else comes up? borisjohnson. he broke rules. people want their mps to follow the rules and that is

entirely legitimate.- follow the rules and that is entirely legitimate. luke johnson, what do you _ entirely legitimate. luke johnson, what do you think? _ entirely legitimate. luke johnson, what do you think? on _ entirely legitimate. luke johnson, what do you think? on public - what do you think? on public servants in — what do you think? on public servants in general— what do you think? on public servants in general in - what do you think? on public servants in general in this i what do you think? on public - servants in general in this country compared — servants in general in this country compared to any other country on earth _ compared to any other country on earth virtually are remarkably honest — earth virtually are remarkably honest and i do not think many people — honest and i do not think many people realise how lucky we are and if you _ people realise how lucky we are and if you go _ people realise how lucky we are and if you go to — people realise how lucky we are and if you go to the vast majority of places — if you go to the vast majority of places around the world, the level of misbehaviour, they laugh at the sort of— of misbehaviour, they laugh at the sort of things we get excited about sort of things we get excited about so i sort of things we get excited about so i think— sort of things we get excited about so i think were actually quite lucky~ — so i think were actually quite luc . . so i think were actually quite luc . , ., | so i think were actually quite lucky-_ i had i so i think were actually quite i lucky._ i had the lucky. chris packham? i had the fortune mixed _ lucky. chris packham? i had the fortune mixed with _ lucky. chris packham? i had the fortune mixed with mps - lucky. chris packham? i had the fortune mixed with mps and - lucky. chris packham? i had the - fortune mixed with mps and ministers and i fortune mixed with mps and ministers and i do _ fortune mixed with mps and ministers and i do feel— fortune mixed with mps and ministers and i do feel sorry _ fortune mixed with mps and ministers and i do feel sorry for _ fortune mixed with mps and ministers and i do feel sorry for some _ fortune mixed with mps and ministers and i do feel sorry for some them - fortune mixed with mps and ministers and i do feel sorry for some them on. and i do feel sorry for some them on account— and i do feel sorry for some them on account of— and i do feel sorry for some them on account of the — and i do feel sorry for some them on account of the fact _ and i do feel sorry for some them on account of the fact there _ and i do feel sorry for some them on account of the fact there are - and i do feel sorry for some them on account of the fact there are bad - account of the fact there are bad apples _ account of the fact there are bad apples in — account of the fact there are bad apples in the barrel, _ account of the fact there are bad apples in the barrel, why- account of the fact there are bad apples in the barrel, why don't l account of the fact there are bad i apples in the barrel, why don't you swap— apples in the barrel, why don't you swap them — apples in the barrel, why don't you swap them out— apples in the barrel, why don't you swap them out and _ apples in the barrel, why don't you swap them out and look— apples in the barrel, why don't you swap them out and look after- apples in the barrel, why don't you swap them out and look after your| swap them out and look after your reputation? — swap them out and look after your reputation? we've _ swap them out and look after your reputation? we've gone _ swap them out and look after your reputation? we've gone through l swap them out and look after your reputation? we've gone through aj reputation? we've gone through a period _ reputation? we've gone through a period of— reputation? we've gone through a period of excessive _ reputation? we've gone through a period of excessive sleaze, - reputation? we've gone through a period of excessive sleaze, i- period of excessive sleaze, i disagree _ period of excessive sleaze, i disagree with _ period of excessive sleaze, i disagree with luke - period of excessive sleaze, i disagree with luke johnson, j period of excessive sleaze, i- disagree with luke johnson, there is serious _ disagree with luke johnson, there is serious problems— disagree with luke johnson, there is serious problems about _ disagree with luke johnson, there is serious problems about public - disagree with luke johnson, there is serious problems about public trust i serious problems about public trust with politicians _ serious problems about public trust with politicians but _ serious problems about public trust with politicians but the _ serious problems about public trust with politicians but the public- serious problems about public trust with politicians but the public havei with politicians but the public have the capacity— with politicians but the public have the capacity to _ with politicians but the public have the capacity to sort _ with politicians but the public have the capacity to sort that _ with politicians but the public have the capacity to sort that out, - with politicians but the public have the capacity to sort that out, get l the capacity to sort that out, get rid of— the capacity to sort that out, get rid of the — the capacity to sort that out, get rid of the bad _ the capacity to sort that out, get rid of the bad guys _ the capacity to sort that out, get rid of the bad guys and - the capacity to sort that out, get rid of the bad guys and gals - the capacity to sort that out, get rid of the bad guys and gals and| rid of the bad guys and gals and focus _ rid of the bad guys and gals and focus on — rid of the bad guys and gals and focus on those _ rid of the bad guys and gals and focus on those committed - rid of the bad guys and gals and focus on those committed to .

rid of the bad guys and gals and i focus on those committed to public service _ focus on those committed to public service. ., ., , , service. you have been very committed _ service. you have been very committed for _ service. you have been very committed for the - service. you have been very committed for the last i service. you have been very committed for the last 60 i service. you have been very i committed for the last 60 minutes and we thank you all forjoining us. now while we've been sittigng in the studio and hopefully you've been comfy on your sofa tens of thousands of pepole are about to get going at the london marathon. there'll be tonnes of coverage on bbc one and across the bbc through the day. we thought we'd see how some of those foolhardy souls are feeling as they've been warming up for the big race. you might recognise some of this lot. hi, laura. just getting ready for the marathon. it's going to be quite a tough one. maybe not quite as tough as some of the questions you asked me. and it's for a great cause. the royal surrey cancer and surgical innovation centre and my brother's charity, sarcoma uk. good luck to all the runners. i'm running the london marathon tomorrow in aid of bristol refugee rights. it's my second one, taking this little running pack. and i've got battery pack. phone. backups.

my headphones for the music. enjoy the day, runners! it's a really fantastic experience. the london marathon is a wonderful event. | it is a carnival of goodwill and it is a pleasure i to be a part of it. it's never easy. you just got to keep going. just keep putting one foot in front of the other. i but hopefully, i will get i to the finish, and hopefully i'll raise a lot of moneyl for cancer research uk. i love the marathon, i love the crowds. there's a sense of excitement and i love with all the runners running for a good cause. in my case, i'm running for the accessible learning foundation, a brilliant neurodiversity charity, but everybody�*s got their cause they're running for. and so there's this real, realspirit. good sports all of them. chris packham had his head in his hands. i've got to ask why. it’s packham had his head in his hands. i've got to ask why.—

i've got to ask why. it's 'ust the lack of sincerity i i've got to ask why. it's 'ust the lack of sincerity from i i've got to ask why. it's just the lack of sincerity from matt i i've got to ask why. it'sjust the i lack of sincerity from matt hancock! good luck to all of those mps running today and good luck to everyone else embarking on that huge task. enjoy it for all of you watching along the route. headlines around energy and the envrionment are rarely far from our screens, and as we've had a taste of this morning, the differences between the two big parties on how and how fast to tackle climate change are warming up to be one of the big arguments of the election campaign. you can watch anything again on the bbc iplayer and i'll bejoining paddy o'connell and he isjoined by angela rippon. you can catch up with everything on bbc sounds. i'll see you all next sunday, same time same place!

live from london, this is bbc news. after months of delays us lawmakers in the house of representatives pass a $61 billion aid package for ukraine. we would rather send bullets to the conflict overseas than our own boys, our troops, and i think this is an important moment, an important opportunity to make that decision. ukraine's president zelensky welcomed the move as his country once again came under missile attack from russia. translation:

it's a very significant package that will be felt by our soldiers on the front line as well as by our towns and villages that are suffering from russian terror. remembering the dead of bondijunction — a minute's silence is observed for the victims of the mass stabbing last weekend. we start this hour with ukraine and reaction to the news that us lawmakers have finally — after months of delays — approved billions of dollars in new us military aid for the country to help fight russia's invasion. the bill will see a $61 billion package for ukraine, including ammunition and air defences. president biden welcomed the deal which he said would "answer history's call". ukraine's president zelensky described the american support as "vital" and said it would save thousands of lives.