�*it �* it looks quite flooded areas even if it looks quite shallow that could be holes you cannot see because manhole covers may have come off in the flooding. i think we can show you some pictures of bournemouth beach there, one of the piers, and i assume that is close to people. a lot of people taking their warnings to stay at home, commuters being told coming into london to work from home as they assess the amount of fallen trees and debris on the line. plenty more on the bbc website on all of this, they are talking about the school closures and areas worst affected. there you go. the main story that we are looking at here on bbc news today is the covid inquiry and we will be looking at the second phase, looking at how the government handled the crisis, and today senior health officials will be speaking at

the inquiry, including the former chief officer of nhs england. our chief officer of nhs england. our chief reporter zoe conway is outside the building at paddington in london. talk us through what we are expecting to hear today, zoe. in the next few minutes, _ expecting to hear today, zoe. in the next few minutes, simon _ expecting to hear today, zoe. in the next few minutes, simon stevens i expecting to hear today, zoe. ii�*u time: next few minutes, simon stevens will be giving evidence. we haven't heard from him during this inquiry before. there may not be the shock and awe in his testimony that we have heard from dominic cummings and indeed helen macnamara yesterday, but i think his evidence could be pretty tantalising nonetheless. we have heard very little from him about his role in the pandemic. he was the chief executive of the nhs from 2019, so before the pandemic, all the way through to the summer of 2021. i think the reason why it is going to be so interesting is because he was one of the men in the room when some really big decisions were made, and i suspect that what

they will want to ask him about it is just how prepared was the nhs at the beginning of 2020 in the early stages. what kind of state was the nhs in? we know that in nhs speak, it was running hot. there were no spare beds. what kind of state was the nhs in to cope with this? access to personal protective equipment, ppe, what kind of access was that at that? just what kind of state was the health service in? there are bound to be also questions about decisions made about discharging people, from the elderly, from hospitals into care homes. what was his role in those decisions, and what about the lack of testing when they were transferred into the social care setting? that will be fascinating to find out. and also i think there could well be questions around the second lockdown, that was very controversial, that criticism around that, and that second

lockdown happened in the autumn of 2020, so i think this is going to be a really interesting evidence session from simon stevens. interesting to hear about the situation from health officials, because we have been hearing a picture, a lot of criticism from the aids working at the heart of government aboutjust aids working at the heart of government about just how shambolic things were at the time, and huge criticism about the way things were organised in the attitude of the people at the heart of the decision making, so it will be interesting to see how that went together along with the health officials and the advice that they were handing over. absolutely, and we won'tjust be hearing from simon stevens, we will also be hearing from the most senior civil servant at the department of health, sir christopher wool mould. his perspective on that. and also the x medical director of public health england, dr yvonne doyle. and all of them i'm sure will be asked

about the decision—making in number ten, and what they were hearing... i'm sorry, zoe, i'm going to interrupt you because the feed has just started from the covid inquiry. a copy of your statement is on the screen now. i'm sure you are familiar with the contents of that statement, and on the last page you have signed that statement with the date, the 22nd of september of this year underneath the statement of truth saying that you believe the facts contained in the statement are true. is that right? it facts contained in the statement are true. is that right?— facts contained in the statement are true. is that right? it is. simon stevens. _ true. is that right? it is. simon stevens. you — true. is that right? it is. simon stevens, you had _ true. is that right? it is. simon stevens, you had a _ true. is that right? it 3 simon stevens, you had a lengthy career in the nhs, latterly in nhs england, and of particular interest to the inquiry, you were chief executive of

the nhs from april 2014 tojuly 2021, is that right? it the nhs from april 2014 to july 2021, is that right?— the nhs from april 2014 tojuly 2021, is that right? it is. and it is clear then _ 2021, is that right? it is. and it is clear then from _ 2021, is that right? it is. and it is clear then from the - 2021, is that right? it 3 and it is clear then from the dates that the final year of your tenure as chief executive of the nhs was during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that _ during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you _ during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you made _ during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you made a - during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you made a life - during the covid pandemic. yes. we also know that you made a life peer| also know that you made a life peer on stepping down as chief executive in 2021. lord stevens, help us a little bit, if you will, with the nature of your role as chief executive of nhs england. is it right that you were as it were the operational head of that organisation? yes. it operational head of that organisation? yes.- operational head of that organisation? yes. operational head of that oruanisation? yes. , organisation? yes. it is of course an enormous _ organisation? yes. it is of course an enormous organisation, - organisation? yes. it is of course - an enormous organisation, enormous budgets, huge staff, the buildings and so on. just give us an idea if you will as to the scope of your role in that post. the

you will as to the scope of your role in that post.— role in that post. the nhs in encland role in that post. the nhs in england is — role in that post. the nhs in england is not _ role in that post. the nhs in england is not one _ role in that post. the nhs in england is not one and - role in that post. the nhs in england is not one and the l role in that post. the nhs in - england is not one and the same as nhs england, somewhat confusingly. so nhs england is the body that was created by parliament in 2012, in the first instance to oversee the funding for different health services across the country. but as part of that 2012 act of parliament, actually quite a number of the responsibilities for the health system overall were distributed, some might say fragmented, between different bodies, of which the nhs was one, and nhs england had the responsible achieve training, nhs digitalfor responsible achieve training, nhs digital for data, responsible achieve training, nhs digitalfor data, public responsible achieve training, nhs digital for data, public health england for notjust infectious diseases but ppe stockpiles and so forth, and so over time, frankly we

have attempted to ensure that together pieces of the jigsaw are coming together to form the full picture, but the consequence of that is that in legal terms at least, before the changes were made in 2022, nhs england was not actually directly responsible for the totality of what was happening in the nhs in england, confusing as that sounds, that is the legacy that parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality _ parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality of _ parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality of the _ parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality of the nhs - parliament bequeathed us. perhaps not for the totality of the nhs in - not for the totality of the nhs in england, but what was it responsible for? ., , ., , ., england, but what was it responsible for? .,, .,, ., ., england, but what was it responsible for? ., , ., , ., ., ,, for? ourjob was to lead the nhs resonse for? ourjob was to lead the nhs response to _ for? ourjob was to lead the nhs response to the _ for? ourjob was to lead the nhs response to the covid _ for? ourjob was to lead the nhs response to the covid pandemic. | for? ourjob was to lead the nhs - response to the covid pandemic. add to be directly accountable to parliament as the the funding that

flows to the nhs and england which was about £150 billion per year. we need to be clear, don't we, but other the relationship between nhs england and new, and the health secretary, matt hancock. put it crudely, he was not your boss, was he? . . ., , he? the chief executive of nhs encland he? the chief executive of nhs england is _ he? the chief executive of nhs england is accountable - he? the chief executive of nhs england is accountable to - he? the chief executive of nhs england is accountable to the l he? the chief executive of nhs - england is accountable to the board of nhs england, and it felt as if i had many bosses, so the board of nhs it was one, and i obviously had an accountability to the secretary of state, to the government, but also more widely to parliament, as i have described as the accounting office of the organisation, and frankly i felt an obligation to the staff in the nhs as well, and the public.

moving on to the pandemic itself, lord stevens, it is obvious that the nhs was involved really at every level of the response to the pandemic, and that involvement will find its reflection in the involvement of nhs england with this inquiry. there is to follow this module, as you know, a module that will focus on the nhs itself. there will focus on the nhs itself. there will be vaccines module, there is a module to consider ppe, care homes, all of which the nhs will have a strong interest in.— all of which the nhs will have a - strong interest in._ this strong interest in. absolutely. this module, strong interest in. absolutely. this module. as — strong interest in. absolutely. this module. as you — strong interest in. absolutely. this module, as you know, _ strong interest in. absolutely. this module, as you know, is— strong interest in. absolutely. this module, as you know, is focusing l strong interest in. absolutely. this. module, as you know, is focusing on core political and administrative decision—making, essentially decisions about the pandemic made in downing street and the cabinet office, and so the scope of my questions today will be on the role

that you and nhs england took first of all in that decision—making, and also on issues that affected that decision—making. but we need to bear in mind that those operational matters, if you like, will be in subsequent modules. so let me start, if i may, by asking you what role do you think that you played in general terms in that core political decision—making in the period that you were in office during the pandemic? i you were in office during the pandemic?— pandemic? i think the main responsibility _ pandemic? i think the main responsibility is _ pandemic? i think the main responsibility is that - pandemic? i think the main responsibility is that we - pandemic? i think the main| responsibility is that we had pandemic? i think the main - responsibility is that we had and i had were to do everything we could to ensure that the nhs was able to look after severely ill covid patients and also all of the other non—covert patient during our care during the pandemic. so first of all it was about the availability of the nhs. we were not directly asked to contribute to debates that government was having about lock is

an so—called non—pharmaceutical interventions or other ways of controlling the spread of the virus. i would just pause you there a moment, lord stevens. if you can try and keep your answers, try to speak relatively slowly and relatively short, that would help us. i will stop there. _ short, that would help us. i will stop there, then. _ short, that would help us. i will stop there, then. so _ short, that would help us. i will stop there, then. so you - short, that would help us. i will stop there, then. so you have l stop there, then. so you have described _ stop there, then. so you have described in _ stop there, then. so you have described in essence - stop there, then. so you have described in essence most - stop there, then. so you have described in essence most of| stop there, then. so you have - described in essence most of your work, and unsurprisingly given what you said was on operational matters, helping the nhs deal with covid, and of course also deal with all the other things it would have been dealing with anyway.— other things it would have been dealing with anyway. yes. had you said that you _ dealing with anyway. yes. had you said that you are _ dealing with anyway. jazz had you said that you are not routinely involved in those discussions about lockdown is. we can see and you describe in your statement, perhaps we can look at paragraph 13 of your statement on page five. you say that

you did attempt several of the cobra meetings held in the early part of 2020. , meetings held in the early part of 2020.- several, _ meetings held in the early part of 2020. yes. several, all? may be can't remember _ 2020. yes. several, all? may be can't remember now. _ 2020. yes. several, all? may be can't remember now. probably l 2020. yes. several, all? may be - can't remember now. probably almost all, can't remember now. probably almost all. although — can't remember now. probably almost all. although the _ can't remember now. probably almost all, although the inquiry _ can't remember now. probably almost all, although the inquiry has _ can't remember now. probably almost all, although the inquiry has the - all, although the inquiry has the cobra minutes and that will show whether or not i was there. certainly a number in february and then in march, but cobra fell out of use as a mechanism by which the government decided to take its decisions and review progress against the pandemic, so that abated as a forum for this type of discussion.— as a forum for this type of discussion. ~ ., . ., , ., discussion. we have certainly heard that the cobra _ discussion. we have certainly heard that the cobra meetings _ discussion. we have certainly heard that the cobra meetings stopped, l discussion. we have certainly heard l that the cobra meetings stopped, but are you saying that you stopped going to them for that reason? i went to every cobra meeting i was asked to go to, as far as i'm aware. and was it routine either you or someone else from nhs england was invited to those meetings?—

invited to those meetings? during february 2020. — invited to those meetings? during february 2020. i _ invited to those meetings? during february 2020, | think— invited to those meetings? during february 2020, | think that's - invited to those meetings? during | february 2020, i think that's right. and probably much as well. i would have to literally go back and look at all of the minutes, but that is my recollection, yes. you mentioned 'ust now, my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now. and — my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now. and you — my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now, and you describe _ my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now, and you describe in - my recollection, yes. you mentioned just now, and you describe in your i just now, and you describe in your statement, a view that these meetings were not, in your words, optimally effective. can you expand on that? . ~ , optimally effective. can you expand onthat? , g ., ., , ., on that? yes. my observation is that the cobra meetings _ on that? yes. my observation is that the cobra meetings were _ on that? yes. my observation is that the cobra meetings were very - on that? yes. my observation is that the cobra meetings were very large, so lots of people, which often makes it hard to have very substantial discussions. and sometimes the seniority of representation ministerial e at the cobras varied between departments, so it wasn't always the case that the minister had the full authority of the department when a discussion was

taking place was my observation. 0thers taking place was my observation. others in government may take a different view.— different view. there is a particular— different view. there is a particular point - different view. there is a particular point you - different view. there is a | particular point you make different view. there is a - particular point you make which we can see in this paragraph on the screen, lord stevens, which is that when, as we know they were in the early stage, the cobra meetings were chaired by matt hancock, other secretaries of state sometimes avoided attending and sentjunior ministers instead. was that a reflection you had at the time? i’m reflection you had at the time? i'm not sa in: reflection you had at the time? in not saying that that was cause and effect, but that is the fact of the matter. �* , ., , . matter. i'm sorry, the inference in our matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement — matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement was _ matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement was that _ matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement was that it - matter. i'm sorry, the inference in your statement was that it was - matter. i'm sorry, the inference in i your statement was that it was cause and effect, but you are not going that far? i and effect, but you are not going that far? . and effect, but you are not going that far? , ., , , ., and effect, but you are not going that far? , ., ,, ., that far? i 'ust observed that those two that far? i just observed that those two coincided. _ that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can _ that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can you _ that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can you offer - that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can you offer a - that far? i just observed that those two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether _ two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in _ two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in light _ two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in light of _ two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in light of that, - two coincided. can you offer a view as to whether in light of that, the l as to whether in light of that, the final one and that you were observing, it would have been better for the prime minister to have

chaired the cobra at the early stages. would it have ensured that more people attending those meetings? i more people attending those meetings?— more people attending those meetinus? “ , , meetings? i think it is very likely that had the _ meetings? i think it is very likely that had the prime _ meetings? i think it is very likely that had the prime minister- meetings? i think it is very likely l that had the prime minister shared those cobras that other people would have expected to go as well, but whether the substance of those meetings was such that not having all of those folks there made a big difference, i defer to others. just following down the page, lord stevens, you indicate that you did attend some cabinet committees, and i think you can see i'm not going to take you to the document, but you were an attendee of a health meeting in early 2020 which i think you did attend? i in early 2020 which i think you did attend? ~ ., in early 2020 which i think you did attend? ~' ., , ., ., attend? i think i went to several of them and not _ attend? i think i went to several of them and not all _ attend? i think i went to several of them and not all of _ attend? i think i went to several of them and not all of them, - attend? i think i went to several of them and not all of them, and -

attend? i think i went to several of them and not all of them, and my| them and not all of them, and my statement, i did not consider that they were the most effective forum for resolving operational questions, shall i say, and that is why in fairly short order they were abolished and replaced by a different system.— abolished and replaced by a different system. abolished and replaced by a different s stem. , , different system. they were replaced b what we different system. they were replaced by what we came _ different system. they were replaced by what we came to _ different system. they were replaced by what we came to know _ different system. they were replaced by what we came to know as - different system. they were replaced by what we came to know as covid i different system. they were replaced by what we came to know as covid 0| by what we came to know as covid 0 and s. i by what we came to know as covid 0 and s. ~ ., ., ~ , and s. i think all of the mig meetings — and s. i think all of the mig meetings were _ and s. i think all of the mig meetings were replaced - and s. i think all of the mig meetings were replaced by| and s. i think all of the mig - meetings were replaced by covid 0 and covid s, and when it came

specifically to figuring out things that required political involvement and a ministerial decision on health, the mig was probably not the best place to get that done. did health, the mig was probably not the best place to get that done.— best place to get that done. did you attend either— best place to get that done. did you attend either covid _ best place to get that done. did you attend either covid 0 _ best place to get that done. did you attend either covid 0 or— best place to get that done. did you attend either covid 0 or covid - best place to get that done. did you attend either covid 0 or covid s, - attend either covid 0 or covid s, and did you find them useful? the cabinet and did you find them useful? ii2 cabinet office and did you find them useful? "ii2 cabinet office created and did you find them useful? ii2 cabinet office created this thing called a covid task force, and that substantially improved the understanding, that was my impression. understanding, that was my impression-— understanding, that was my impression. understanding, that was my imression. �* ., impression. and you also say in your statement. — impression. and you also say in your statement, lord _ impression. and you also say in your statement, lord stevens, _ impression. and you also say in your statement, lord stevens, that - impression. and you also say in your statement, lord stevens, that there| statement, lord stevens, that there were a few occasions at least where you had ad hoc meetings with the prime minister and other senior decision—makers, and i would like to take you to a document which records one of those meetings. it is 146616,

please. so this, lord stevens, is an e—mail, is it not, dated october 2020, so we are in the autumn of that year. and it is an e—mailfrom imran shafi essentially recording a meeting which had happened i think earlier that week, and we can see from the start, the first line of the e—mail, it was a meeting which included the prime minister, the chancellor, chris whitty, stuart vallance and you, and it may boil be others as well. we don't see your name on the copy list. this appears to have been an internal number 10 document, but

i know you have had a chance to look at this document, and obviously if there are any things in it which don't accord with your recollection, you will tell us. first of all, do you will tell us. first of all, do you are going to this meeting in the autumn of 2020? i say going, it may have been a virtual meeting. i do remember _ have been a virtual meeting. i do remember it- _ have been a virtual meeting. i do remember it. i— have been a virtual meeting. i if remember it. i think this note is the 10th of october, and i think it relates to a meeting that was on the eighth. relates to a meeting that was on the ei . hth. �* . relates to a meeting that was on the eirhth. ~ , ., ., ., eighth. and we see again from the first line that — eighth. and we see again from the first line that the _ eighth. and we see again from the first line that the purpose - eighth. and we see again from the first line that the purpose of- eighth. and we see again from the first line that the purpose of the i first line that the purpose of the meeting was to discuss covid, perhaps in particular nhs preparedness. preparedness for the winter to come?— winter to come? yes, and in the litht of winter to come? yes, and in the light of rising — winter to come? yes, and in the light of rising covid _ winter to come? yes, and in the light of rising covid cases - winter to come? yes, and in the light of rising covid cases which | light of rising covid cases which were apparent by early october. ththd were apparent by early october. and were apparent by early october. and we will look atjust were apparent by early october. and we will look at just a little bit of we will look atjust a little bit of the detail in a moment, but before we do, can you give us a sense of how frequent meetings like this were? did you have meetings with the prime minister and the chancellor

weekly, monthly, less than that? it ebbed and flowed, so during march 2028 april very frequently, then as covid numbers decreased and pressures on the nhs likewise, then far fewer during pressures on the nhs likewise, then farfewer during may, pressures on the nhs likewise, then far fewer during may, june, july, august. but then from october, they increased again, and certainly by the time we were in late december, early january 2020, very frequently. in fact, i think i had between new year's day and the 10th of january something like six separate meetings with the prime minister and others on both winter covid pressures in the vaccine roll—out, so that was the vaccine roll—out, so that was the sort of pattern over the course of the pandemic, and as i also stay in my statement, we were having

these so—called daily —— board meetings at the prime minister would chair, and theirfrequency meetings at the prime minister would chair, and their frequency can change a bit depending on what was happening with covid. they could sometimes be everyday, they could be three times a week, and i personally found those very useful sessions, because it was a chance to tell it straight, direct to the relevant senior politicians, and to an extent there were things that frankly i thought we could support on, we could lodge that direct with the prime minister. can you give us an indication of whether those meetings were virtual or not? where you spend your life going backwards and forwards to downing street for these regular meetings, or did you for example dial into those meetings?- meetings, or did you for example dial into those meetings? some were virtual and some _

dial into those meetings? some were virtual and some were _ dial into those meetings? some were virtual and some were face-to-face, | virtual and some were face—to—face, so it was a mix of both. irate virtual and some were face-to-face, so it was a mix of both.— so it was a mix of both. we will come to the — so it was a mix of both. we will come to the detail, _ so it was a mix of both. we will come to the detail, but - so it was a mix of both. we will come to the detail, but since i so it was a mix of both. we will i come to the detail, but since you have given us that overview of your interplay, the exchanges you have had, the meetings you've had with the prime minister and his team, you are of course aware that we have heard evidence in the last few days, the last week or so, of difficulties in the decision—making process, a certain level of dysfunction. there has been evidence of the prime ministerfinding it has been evidence of the prime minister finding it difficult to settle on a particular decision, oscillating as one of the words that has been used to describe that. can you give us an overview of your experience of those months that you spent discussing covid, helping him make those decisions? in a spent discussing covid, helping him make those decisions?— spent discussing covid, helping him make those decisions? in a sense, i don't think— make those decisions? in a sense, i don't think i — make those decisions? in a sense, i

don't think i did — make those decisions? in a sense, i don't think i did help _ make those decisions? in a sense, i don't think i did help him _ make those decisions? in a sense, i don't think i did help him with - don't think i did help him with those decisions, if you mean lockdown decisions, social restriction and so forth... . what i meant, because _ restriction and so forth... . what i meant, because you _ restriction and so forth... . what i meant, because you have - restriction and so forth... . what i meant, because you have just - restriction and so forth... . what i i meant, because you have just given evidence that you had frequent meetings with the prime minister, at times very frequent. i'm not suggesting that you are making the decisions with him, but one assumes that the purpose of him having those discussions with you was to help him make decisions, that's what i meant. yes, but actually, the way the rhythm of it tended to work was we would have the session specifically on the nhs, and then ministers would go off and have a separate session without the nhs present where then the consequences of that for their wider decision—making would be taken account of. so i think a lot of what you've heard over the last few days as i understand it relates to sessions that frankly i was not present at so i can't give you good commentary on those.

but he would have experienced the consequences of his decisions, and you would have found yourself at the next meeting hearing that a decision you might have expected to be taken had or hadn't been taken, so is there really nothing that you can say about the way in which the decision—making process took place? i can see some of the evidence that honestly you can see now as well, not all of which we were privy to at the time. what i would say is that in respect of decisions we needed from government on nhs capacity, sometimes decision were taken which we didn't like, but nevertheless those were the decisions. i think the best example in a way of the interface with prime ministerial decision—making that i can personally speak to it was around the roll—out of the vaccine programme. the prime minister was very personally involved in that, and for the most part, that was a

constructive engagement on what needed to get done, and we could talk specifically about that... niwai we won't, because there is another module to come, and i'm sure there will be an opportunity for you to talk about that and the vaccines module. let's look at this document, and perhaps the third paragraph where we see that the pm asked about nhs capacity, and there is a relatively detailed review that you conducted of the position as it stood regarding the nhs. we see reference to regional variation, and we also see in the first line that you stress the nhs was not overwhelmed. {3h you stress the nhs was not overwhelmed.— you stress the nhs was not overwhelmed. j~ ., . ., , overwhelmed. on the 8th of october 2020, overwhelmed. on the 8th of october 2020. correet- _ overwhelmed. on the 8th of october 2020, correct. and _ overwhelmed. on the 8th of october 2020, correct. and so _ overwhelmed. on the 8th of october 2020, correct. and so you _ overwhelmed. on the 8th of october 2020, correct. and so you are - overwhelmed. on the 8th of octoberj

2020, correct. and so you are saying it wasn't overwhelmed _ 2020, correct. and so you are saying it wasn't overwhelmed at _ 2020, correct. and so you are saying it wasn't overwhelmed at the - 2020, correct. and so you are saying it wasn't overwhelmed at the time i 2020, correct. and so you are saying it wasn't overwhelmed at the time ofj it wasn't overwhelmed at the time of the meeting, and then reading on, you describe the regional position and give some view about the future. and i'm going to come back to the question of the nhs shortly, but just looking a little bit further down the document, the next we see the discussion turn to the question of npis, and simon ridley, one of the cabinet office officials, gave a presentation about npis, and then there is another paragraph where it appears that you contributed to the debate perhaps about npi, and it says here, stepping back, not everyone did think there was a problem. people question whether the measures were fair, they questioned whether they would work, and if they did work, they wanted financial support. so first of all, slightly

contrary to what it had a moment ago, this does appear to suggest that you were contributing to discussions beyond simply the nhs capacity matters. i discussions beyond simply the nhs capacity matters-— capacity matters. i think on this occasion. _ capacity matters. i think on this occasion. i— capacity matters. i think on this occasion, i was _ capacity matters. i think on this occasion, i was asked, - capacity matters. i think on this occasion, i was asked, what - capacity matters. i think on this occasion, i was asked, what are people in the health service, in liverpool, merseyside, the north—west seeing about what is happening in the local situation, because obviously part of my responsibility was to be out and about around the country talking directly to people who were affected. and i think in that comment i was reflecting what i had been told directly from people in merseyside, manchester and elsewhere, that frankly the set of mechanisms that were supposedly in place in those areas were not working, and their view was that part of the problem was there wasn't sufficient financial support given to people who are being asked to self—isolate. fithd to people who are being asked to self-isolate—

self-isolate. and in fact, one of the themes _ self-isolate. and in fact, one of the themes of _ self-isolate. and in fact, one of the themes of the _ self-isolate. and in fact, one of the themes of the evidence - self-isolate. and in fact, one of| the themes of the evidence that self-isolate. and in fact, one of - the themes of the evidence that we have heard is precisely on that issue, that there was a live question about whether sufficient financial support was being provided, including in fact to workers in the health care sector, and i think, are you perhaps saying that it was workers in the health care sector that you were reporting back on as it were needed further financial support. i back on as it were needed further financial support.— back on as it were needed further financial support. i can't remember that specifically, _ financial support. i can't remember that specifically, because _ financial support. i can't remember that specifically, because honestly| that specifically, because honestly there were different arrangements for nhs staff, furlough and so on, and so i can't say that directly. but what i can say is that this was a time as i recall it when it was a pretty variegated set of local restrictions that were in place around the country, and frankly a lot of people were struggling to understand the rationale and what they were supposed to be doing in one place or another. i think it is the case that after this the government then moved to their more

clear—cut tiering system to try and respond to that. clear-cut tiering system to try and respond to that.— clear-cut tiering system to try and respond to that. quite. and you were voicin: respond to that. quite. and you were voicing support _ respond to that. quite. and you were voicing support for— respond to that. quite. and you were voicing support for the _ respond to that. quite. and you were voicing support for the idea _ respond to that. quite. and you were voicing support for the idea that - voicing support for the idea that further financial support needed to be given to people self—isolating? that was my personal view. i think actually what these notes show was that i was describing what i had heard other people saying, but yes, that was also my personal view. i’m that was also my personal view. i'm ttoin to that was also my personal view. i'm going to move away from this document, but stay as it were without general issue of exchanges between and to the prime minister, and i'd like to go if we can, please, to the written witness statement of helen macnamara, which is 273841 paragraph 71. page 39, i think.

cannot see because manhole covers may have come off in the flooding. i don't know if you have had a chance to look at this document before, i hope you have. one of the observations helen macnamara makes in her written statement and expanded on in evidence yesterday as the last five or six lines of this paragraph, talking about her experience of dealing with officials and politicians in number ten. she said i don't remember anyone working in the centre or who was part of the conversations who had a detailed understanding of the way the nhs operated. this is not unusual or unique, and she talks about the fact that social areas of policy are less well represented in downing street than military national security types of matter. i am interested in your views on that with your long experience of dealing with

politicians and perhaps