suffering traps, injury to conflict, devastating disasters and abject poverty donate use a cat to human appeal. now to help save lives and transform communities. germany denies supply as well with weapons of war, yet is one of the sorts of supporters of as well as well on garza, what's behind germany's position. i'm one of the long term consequences for diplomacy in the middle east. this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm laura kyle. 80 is off to the holocaust. gemini, is accused of being complicit and is really genocide and gone to the correct q. i wants the international court of justice to order balance of still ministry exports

. the israel, german lawyers have rejected the case as baseless unbiased. they say button is a 5th advocate for and special humanitarian no. but at the same time for years, gemini has declared the security of the state of israel, is that it's cool of a foreign policy. it's by raising that as well. the pinion terms against israel brucell on garza where does that leave buttons on wavering support for the jewish people. will discuss a little bit with all panel of guess and just a moment. but 1st this report, alexandra buys. when germany appeared before the un top court accused of facilitating is really genocide in gaza. it's defense drew squarely on national history because you have learned from its past, lawyers argued and it had learned from the holocaust. germany is doing its most to live up to its responsibility. he said he both is really and the palestinian people . this explains one of the principles upon which all foreign policy with regard to

all middle east issues for us as. oh, history is the reason what israel security has been at the pole of german foreign policy. the need to atone for the killing of 6000000 jews during the 2nd world. war has made supporting israel, a historic duty for berlin. it's even described as a reason for existence in these moment give descript dodson lives at this moment. germany has only one place, and that is a long side is real. this is what we mean when we say the security of israel is germany is result that the i can assist with oral history or responsibilities stemming from the holocaust makes it our everlasting duty to stand up for the existence and the safety of the state of israel. schultz was the 1st floor and head of state to visit israel after the october 7th attacks

by him. off germany is the 2nd largest arm supplier to israel after the united states. it's abstained for multiple un votes calling for a cease fire in gaza and intervene in defense of israel against south africa's charges of genocide. opposite hey. but the mounting, ductile in gaza has put germany under pressure forcing it to question it's on wavering support. on recent visits to israel, the foreign minister noted the survival of palestinians is just as important as israel's national security. but you who money to the laga in gaza. the humanitarian situation in gaza is how the facts that we're stuck in. this dilemma must not come at the expense of causes hungry civilian population. within germany, police have clamped down on protests in support of palestine, and the country officially defines any appearance of hatred towards israel as anti semitism. but opinion polls conducted by public broadcasters in

march suggests nearly 70 percent of germans believe. israel's military actions in gaza are not justified up from 50 percent just a few weeks before alexandra buyers. alda 0 for inside story to this. but you know, guess now and joining us from palin as to best buy color, a member of the german parliament, 4 lines 90 degrees. and a political scientist in washington dc is don't come sign off and journalist who is a senior associate fellow at the royal united services institute. and, and the gem incentives took got a is she'll have direct to the alliance with justice between israelis and palestinians. he trucks the arms trade between germany and israel. welcome to all of you to be as, let's start with you. what's your response? as a member of the german government to nicaragua is accusation. atkins,

national court of justice, the germany is complicit in the genocide of palestinians as well as member of parliament. i of course argue that we have to take any accusations that is brought up in front of the international court of justice in front of the c. j, quite serious, but when it comes to to the details, i do argue as well that's most of what's being brought up. but i would rather say is probably based on, on the misunderstanding and that this does not really hold of the accusations. and i think the, the, the, the presentation by our we government yesterday, yesterday in the court made clear that we are taking all responsibility in terms of humanitarian assistance. very serious. um, but also our, um, well well, when it comes to to how we control um exports,

etc. that this is very well controlled. um, but still of course you need to take it serious. it is off the roll. a pace in front of the i. c. j um, but i am pretty much uh sure that's uh there there is a clear path where it is going to go. if i could just figure this out a little bit today as well, what exactly was misunderstood? i think mainly when it comes to, to human cherry and aids and the uh, which is often perceived. and our reaction to, to the facts or the, these varieties brought out that certain members of the where in both than the terrorist attacks of the 7th of october. and after that, we decided that there's no, not going to be any new funding photograph from germany. but that still means that everything that we promised was delivered, and we're still one of the biggest, if not the biggest donor cellphone. right. and i think this is very important to

understand that of course we're taking those expectations very serious in germany. but we, you still stick to arguments area and or to be human, terry and cause we're still well delivered. everything we promise to in, right. and we're still funding a lot of human cherry in a, throughout other organizations. okay. all get onto the weapons aspect to the sure and just a moment the festival john, let's just look at the age aspect. so jeremy is strong, part of germany's a defense seems to be that because they do give a huge amount of aid to palestinians. it's kind of condones the supports tools as well. it was the 1st thing to say is um, but yes it is. it needs to be taken very seriously. i think its a semester all regret that germany is being brought to a quote by a country, nicaragua, whose lead to daniel to you guys. probably one of the one a spot h as in human rights. all the, any a lead to

a that wouldn't necessarily affect the way the court looked at it. anybody is able to bring a case out. i forget both the case against is robust a month or 2 ago. i'm going to see more, more about as the global south middle ground states are becoming more sensitive, which is absolutely that right. it is absolutely true that germany does give. i've always has getting a considerable amount of aid to palestinians in gauze or in the west bank. and that said, that does not in any way minimize the question of germans problems. germany's problems now with his role as well as writing a piece for the guardian newspaper of the last friday. i spent my time between germany and, and elsewhere. and i have been really quite struck and depressed by the inability of public gemini, to find

a language that both reconciles dash dots. gaze on the whole idea of post war post not see germany regarding it as a fundamental flag of its existence. and the reason of the state of germany to support israel alongside legitimate criticism of the actions of this fall, right? that's in the off who government i'd be getting ability. the fact that germany is and the german government has been so desperate to close down the discussion of that suggest to me that it hasn't made the progress that i had always assumed it had into is about coming up with an a, a sympathetic, but subjective approach. to as well the type is what, what was your response be to that because that has been a loss of silence saying, of critics of israel and pro palestinian voices since the war on guns that began in germany. but i would 1st of all argue that's been the very 1st

statement. our foreign minister a gave after the terroristic attack. on the 7th of october, before she flew off to this row, she made clear, of course, this row has the right to defend itself. but within the framework of the international law, that means on the base of international law, it has the right to defend itself, but it also gives the framework and therefore the older responsibility israel has to take on if it defends itself. and i think this is very important, of course, i do understand this to on st and this is to a certain amount and not what people might hope for how the suffering of the palestinians is to see for the very 1st statement. i would argue this was, of course, the response to the risk attacks on the stuff stuff from tober and after dad's i would say yes, it's incredibly important that we see and we talk about the new main suffering. the

philistines have to take on and we have to discuss, it's very, i don't want to say carefully, but in the metro are in a serious matter that i've been in the best, i can just jump in that because it's not necessarily talking about the suffering of the palestinians, it's talking about the action of the is re lease and the german government has said that it must act within the bounds of international humanitarian. no, yes it's no. why is it not? i mean the, the, the german government of supplying aides to the bill of simians and i would argue that is definitely within human terry and international law. on the other hand, most of the weapon deliveries since the 7th of october, the vast majority of it's where we are part of it off of the testing of training or industry in industrial corporation. so of course i do understand that that we have

delivered weapons in the past through, through um to defend itself. and of course i do also see that and i think there, and i mean that is another case in front of the i, c j. if they are into this up to the r c j to decide that if the use in this more a force of military equipment is in the freedom of, of international law. and of course, this ruling of the i c chain. this other case is increased important. ok, well that's a, that's look at his weapons. so that was a, a crucial part of the i c j case against german 8. so let's just have a listen to what the defense argument was when it said that the weapons that jeremy sent as well, but not least. so if we look at what has actually been license for export to israel under this framework. since october 2023, we see no artillery shells, no munitions. nearly all experts the exports involve what is

known as of the military equipment, typically of the subordinate or defensive nature. as a matter of fact, only for weapons, war weapons have been licensed for exports since october 20, 233 of which concern test or practice equipment. so let's bring you into the discussion at this point because you have contributed to a lengthy report on germany's weapons export to israel. so do you agree with the core of this defense that germany made yesterday and called to absolutely not see, it is unfortunately very disingenuous. and it is defense by an intermediate, the court to claim that to and the vast majority of weapons. and we're not weapons of war, but this is an internal definition that the german government has developed in order to whitewash and say we did the weapons that are being sold. and those weapons which are defined as weapon. ready war where and the they claim are mostly

weapons for training. in fact, we have evidence, some of these already military that they use a i mean nation and proponents which are designated for training in order to kill people in gaza. and we know that the ships and the worship ser germany hesitated, sold to his right and are used to long as the gaza strip. this is under no circumstances considered to be self defense because it does not have the right to defend it. so hopefully by territory it does not have the right to use artillery against a on civilians. this is. ready the world crime as well as a part of what can relate to the crime genocide. and therefore, it is completely illegal for germany's doing. and then these weapons i should say about these worships and the some damage of event and mentioned that they were sold before. and never been left. the last of those warships, it's called star and basics has been delivered to is or after october 7, when already it was clear that is or is committing genocide. and in this defense

that we've seen that by buying a germany in the course, we've seen 1st of all that they have ignored the most important it statements by, by the noise in the car, after which we said quite at the beginning, the germany's and as on the top i reason on states and to stand by the side of these roads and does not to em cigna find that is road has a right to represent all the jewish people. and so what we are really seeing here is a very am seen a co of use of the memory of the cost in order to profit from an honest rate. and that we've seen so many that is so much evidence of a german, a deadly weapons. whether they call them weapons of. ready or not, and be used to kill by the stadiums. and the guy is a strip. it's accounts of millions as active revenge as acts of genocide. and it's simply not convincing that the german government is not. so you're aware of this, the information is okay and open product that lets us give us have us a heavy us, a chance to respond to the festival. just pick up on shows. last point was the

german government, fully aware of what was being sent to israel and used in gaza. i cannot answer. that's of course we have tracking what's or usually we're tracking what's happening with the weapons, whether they are apply. it's in, in the framework that is agreed on, but this is a confidential information and, and of course i cannot, i actually don't know how much the that's been the case in, in, in this industry. yeah. what from delivery cases, whether we already have those information, whether we have the reports and of course certain reports are public, but of course they need to be confirmed to um, well, and violate or step out of agreed and contracts. okay? there's the same as the munition being given to israel is being used to kill people

in the goals and strep the absolutely sir, it's tom. my information is that o m s, and this of course, agrees with what was presented yesterday in the court. is that most of the and then the vast majority of a window that has been delivered was for training purpose. if this is um, apply different lead out of course. uh that needs to be looked at. but there is no um, no, no. sure. sure. information about that, that we can act on at the moment. okay. i mean, as none of us hear a noise, let's move away from the, the detailed nuances of that case yesterday. and look at the situation in germany more broadly. john, i want to bring you in and pick up on something. she said that this supports wholesale support of israel, especially now the whole government of israel in its own garza shirts cooled at a cynical abuse of the memory of the holocaust. what do you say to that?

i saw the german word which is yawning, which means yes i know i talked, i agree with that. in the inability, i do not see it as a cynical abuse. i see it as an inability to understand and in some ways, drive apartment on a slightly different times and the memories of the will have a full. so in my view, confuse germany when it comes to defending ukraine against russia. the sense of never against the wall, which it was a false conclusion for the 2nd world war, robert van, you defend democracy. so germany, in one respect has been too cautious. in my view, when it comes to ukraine is on the wrong lessons. as with regard to israel, it is a fundamental tenant of, i mean, it is obvious that germany is always going to have a different relationship to this ro side of the countries because of its history

via said it cannot be seen to be this one ping envelope precludes that prevent discussions about what the is really government is doing. i've been mentioned yahoo government in this particular government, which is prop top by far right. would be considered a road to government wherever it, not israel, it is an extreme government represented by somebody like this. and y'all who absolutely belongs to the old tried pod, right? type of lead of it, sadly is becoming bull too prevalent around the world. and yet germany doesn't appear to have the emotional oxygen, if that isn't to mix match effect to, to understand how to deal with this government. you have even now, joe biden, being pretty critical. there's something to go about as a cynical because he is,

is here still as a buying israel who is with you have the brits and it's a foreign secretary, david cameron being quite at least rhetorically tough on his route, but french all to the germans. all pretty much and i take the point, the bad about the foreign minister has said to more, but ultimately it comes down to put off shots and there's nothing coming out of the tron slurry. that gives any indication that this general government is anything about paralyzed by sphere of criticizing as well. to be is that there is a difference, isn't that between supposing jews, supposing israel and supposing this particular government in israel, because it's not a government that upholds many of the germans values, particularly dies at the bottom values of the green policy, your policy, the prime minister facing corruption trials trying to over the whole supreme court extreme right wing members of the government. so how does it reconcile?

how do you reconcile your wholesale support for us? i mean, 1st of all we are is supporting the israel did the state of his row and the right to exist if it's are a that's the that starts as all the ups is on the top and ends that i think this is very important. not only if you wants to debate within the last few weeks, but also i would really say within the 1st, within the last few months, i would agree that there has been a period of chalk of chalk up the 7th of october. and i think this has been particularly big in germany because it was after all, the days the most choose have been killed since the holocaust. and i think that the had an impact on our memorial culture and many, many people in germany. but after the 1st shock about that,

i would argue that there has been a lot of debates around these riley governments. and within the last few weeks we've been seeing, that's the, that's that, of course not only the fact that it's a right wing governments, but also the question on how they're fighting that war and the problems with how they're fighting that war is being discussed more and more of course also in, in, in circles where i argued that have been more opposed to the idea that this is a problem. it's problematic approach, but i think it's very important. on the other hand, of course, we're still having debates around how much criticism of this government or not, not how much criticism that's the wrong way to put it out of wrong and say what kind of words to use to criticize. and that's the government and obtained very se, of course, very nuanced approach on,

on what is perceived and what actually is. and it's a mistake. and i think there we have a very strong debate around and, and i do understand that this on certain from, from, from a certain perspective seems as if we would not discuss a about how act, what's actually happening on the ground is okay, we would not discuss about this one and guys jump in because we are well running slightly out of time. we haven't had much insurance or i apologize for that. but just listening to the way tobias is b choosing his was so costly. and i understand that this is a very complex subject within germany, but isn't to the point now where jeremy is tied itself up and not somebody. so say at that there is a lot of debates around these really governments and support for it. so criticism for to was criticizing it, is that, are you feeling the people are allowed to say what they feel, you know,

ultimately not. there is a culture of censorship, and people are being cancelled say every day in germany and the journalists, adam university professors, and are simply not allowed to to speak their mind, including a jewish activate choice color. they're also silenced to every day, if they dare to support the student rights. i think that's a what a mr. veterinary referred to in terms of german, german, some, a culture memory, a comfortable memory that's completely failed because germany was supposed to be the 1st country in the world to recognize the warning signs, hunger, masturbation being used as a weapon of war, dehumanizing and any type of people, these are the signs of insight, but apparently instead of hear from him when he says, if we don't know louis to look into it. so basically, to say all of this information, which i think the open reports and here on the 0, is simply a not known to the german government because they choose to close their eyes. and it is the, his part of the green party, not the shots at which has been established

a special committee in order to facilitate more objects. sports to these are an after october 2nd. and so this, it was the 1st one, split it to this committee to examine whether a, how these weapons are being used. and in fact, it's in the minister of foreign affairs of his party and then and available to say, confident it consistently opposed a ceasefire. and, and blocked a attempts to promote sci fi with the un, or the you level, and they promoted more blood check this. okay, so i mean it's by conscious that like we are running out of time and i can see to because one thing, something that just to respond i, i'm 1st the 1st of all, i think we need to establish that there still well more than a 100 people being taken hostage and of course they need to be free. it's to have a permanent solution on this war. i mean, this is what all the negotiations are about. but after all, the human cherry and pulse of fire pulse was always order, not always,

but pushed for, for many, many months. spike above all. and i mean the book and i think the other point is very important to understand that there is a problem. what's happening on the ground does not make us complicit. and i think we are addressing that there needs to be more humanitarian aids to get into gaza. that's israel has the responsibility on the occupied territories to well. so the human terry and crisis, i think this is very, very important. that's what i'm saying. what i was saying before, when we don't know is regarding the fire arms and the weapons we delivered. our information is that this was on the vast majority for training or industrial purpose. okay, that sounds great. we have run out of time. we do have to wrap up our discussion even though it could be a one for a lot longer. i do appreciate you all taking the time to join us to best buy. hello

. john comes on and she'll have a thank you very much and thank you too for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website that's out there. adult calm for further discussion to go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. you can also join the conversation on x on homeless up a inside story. for me, laura karl, i'm the whole team here. supply finale the so how is your vacation in this, the shelves? the

chest. wow. the business like this, this brought to you believe i guess as i live slowly on, one of your makes modern plates. the

business latest is free for you, i guess is a nice guy on one of your just makes model leads. as the sun sits, individuals within the occupied with bang, the better once the family is getting the dinner table ready to break their daily fast. but the buzz around the table is missing, the woman who used to put it all together ended. but lucy was the rest of the week before the start. this is really officials have not given their reason yet for detaining her during, at 8 of the home. if you could help me, if there is a way in the look at the house on his not missing one to or even see ma'am is of his size and the occupied west bank, at least 9000 listed in families are missing. at least one loves one at the start table, a week to look at the world's top business stories. how much of the rebuilding going to cost and who pays from global markets and economies of small businesses have just started seeing and station come down and how it affects the dives?

how big a problem is global food insecurity? counting the cost? oh no, just the, [000:00:00;00] the kind of i'm carry johnston, this is the news licenses are coming up in the next 60 minutes. israel assassinated 3 sons and 3 grandchildren of a message. they don't need to smell honey, a in northern gods. european union boats to overheard its migration policy off the deadliest year on record for people trying to across the mediterranean a one year since we were over accounts and sit down, we report from a school that's become a shelter. some of the 8000000 displaced people live in south korea is