nipple hardships, during times of crisis solidarity is a strong this defense against injustice. and we've been in gaza since 1991 doing life saving look. your generosity can provide value to support to those west effected because he met dulcie stella. your mercy, showing this brightest, gave mercy, now donate today. as well as long gaza has we live mostly on western arms and technology to cut around 32000 alice jennings on the spot and growling law physician. those weapons keep flowing. so who's supplying as well, with the tools for genocide and could they be legal consequences? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm elizabeth put on them as well and has used the most modern military technology available to kill all main, more than 100000 people in gaza, language using the communities to rumble in the west. some of the was, which is companies are using the expertise of the engineers and technicians to support the conflict and boost their profits. they high tech munitions have taken the lives of defense, the civilians and incense as the world watches on it, less than politicians, multiple in the us backing israel as it carries out one of the most about barrack assaults on a defenseless community in world history. how can modern civilization allow such slaughter? and will they be legal consequences for those helping a genocide, a will will be asking a panel of guests these questions and more in a few moments. but 1st, the support from mutual soon should have on as well as the weapon supplies of

the center to as well as well on garza have been weapons and technology supplied by western allies the united states as well as largest supplier according to an armstrong, the data base compiled by the stockholm international piece research institute is well and bold, 68 percent of its buttons from the us. those from germany make up 28 percent of as well as military in boats. 10 for rise on 2022. 0, you under polled, says the u. k. australia, canada, and phones also continuing supplies. they include aircraft massage times technology and munition, including components for the s 35 cell phone, the use to attack gaza. birds with several countries have decided to stop supplying almost is when they include the netherlands, belgy, japan, italy, and spain. well as well, has enjoyed strong support from some countries in the

e. u, it's folding, policy chief has voiced his opposition to more um sales. how many times have you heard the most plumbing to lead us on for a minute to the 100 will say to many people are being killed by them by the head. this is too much on the top is not proportional. well, if you believe that too many people are being killed, maybe you should provide less arms. you know that to prevent so many people being killed. so that's what the has accused israel of genocide at the international court of justice. but it could take years before any, but it just reached human rights. legal experts, bone that's sending weapons for the use and gaza is likely to violate international human though. so to talk to and in february, a quote in the netherlands, ordered the country to hold the export of s 355 to jump pulse to as well. as for

the 1949 geneva conventions, states a legally bound to prevent genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. opposition to the us as ministry support for as well is cooling. we're dropping some food and we're dropping the bombs and the, and the tanks and the built bullets and everything else at the same time. that's what he's got to do. stop sending the money in the weapons, as well as coming on the increase in criticism from countries and cuba institutions over on casa. yet, the people cannot continue without less than support on the consumption. these are just easier for insights story the the well, let's discuss all this with 3 experts in the field in washington dc is san diego, the washington director of human rights watch and amsterdam when to the degree is,

is the co founder a stop whopping handle an independent dutch campaign, a post trade and also in washington dc, is brian for new kit, and he's a senior advisor for the us at the international cost of scope. he focuses on developing policies and checks to decrease american reliance on military tools and foreign affairs. it's great to have all of you on the program this diego, i'll begin with you. why has your organization along with ox fab submitted this memorandum to the u. s. government saying that israel's assurances that it's missing us dual. it's credible well. ox them as a humanitarian organization and human rights watch as a human rights organization, decided to come together and package the violations that we have seen israel and conduct in gaza in, in, in one document that we could send in to the u. s. government and say, look,

if you are not going to assess israel's conduct, we will show you what we have seen. and israel's assurances that is going to use us weapons to abide by international humanitarian law. that's the laws of war. should not be deemed credible. okay, it's interesting that you say, you know, you've set of the us government if you are not going to analyze as well as conduct, because most definitive and i'll bring you in here. us law requires officials to assess what the recipient of american military aid does with the weapons provide, as does it not to believe the bite and administration is doing this. that grinds us law. us policy and international law require the united states to undertake assessments and monitor how us origin weapons are being used. respect any partner giving us transfer some to. but the administration has repeatedly said that they're not undertaking the assessments of law for compliance by the idea of policing east

for a systematic fashion. and so it's really hard to see how the administration would credibly assess whether these assurance is receiving from is real or meaningful. if assurance is the israel's providing with respect to law for provides and then we can get into as well assurance as relating to the provision of humanitarian aid. so it's, it's a real problem if the administration has need to remedy for months. now, mr. newton, you've advised the u. s. government governments in the past on military, on legal issues, the ca go, i believe you have to pacific and why don't you think that the us government is doing the necessary assessments here as well? but then the answers may be inconvenient to the policy director from the white house the, the present got states has not signaled that yet, but he is open to the conditioning aid or an forcing the conditions already built

into young law with respect to arms transfers or us military resistance, so that's an overarching reason. i will say just bureaucratically to the used car was not to do this work. and this that means for a systematic fashion. it's frankly embarrassing that organizations like sarah is or is i just like mc international and our news organization to do an open source research are doing a better job at analyzing the kind of go still to use in gaza. and the use of use weapons in the us government seems to be doing. yeah, yeah. i mean, you say that it could be inconvenient and certainly not just human rights organizations, but un experts have cooled for the complete stopping of, of exports to as well at the moment and, and one country where we have seen restrictions put in place. as of course, the netherlands off to adults called old the netherlands to hold the export of f, $3055.00 to jet pots to israel, finding that there was

a clear risk that they would be use to commit, facilitate serious violations of international humanitarian. no, i believe that we can actually hear from one of the noise is involved in that case . that's less than the reason that we long is he goes to court says the exports to israel cannot go ahead phones, the supplies because of the receipts those arms are being used in human rights violations. and given that we know that so many states export to israel and the, the overall presence of because of inflation must lead for all the other countries as well to the conclusion that the issue stops its export the rules that out for kids to come to the conclusion are rules that are finding well, oh, almost every stage and a rule that she is national, humanitarian who is the honest truth treaty. it's 2 european calling position that says, so if there's

a risk that us uh use will be used in and human rights violations. in the state of destiny, you cannot export and this is a binding rule that takes priority over any other interest. we have self defense based rail via regional security, be the can only interest for dramatic reasons. that's the very is let me bring you in your, in the and so that just how much of a victory is that dodge quote from link from group such as yourself as well. so we honestly that absolutely astonished that the this court case was wrong because in many bought cases the district court had ruled that this decision should be a political decision and should not be based on, on your article a grounds because all of this leg is nation like many other kinds of international legislation also you can also export to leave

a little bit of political room for my not for and this is of course deliberate because governments want to control and decide on their own all 6 sport and not have it to restrict it but i think the fact that, uh that there is also, uh, clear risk of, of uh, of genocide has certainly read the difficult and has the strength and, uh, the opinion of, of the detroit is. yeah. so it's, it's, it's not only uh, uh, a big victory in this specific case, but is also a big factory. and in all the, all the export control the situations because it says a human rights. a more important than any order considerations and states have to make provisions to, to take care of the human rights violations will not happen. okay. and certainly that is person and to know,

i'm mistaken. as we heard from the lawyer that it's the courses just responding to rules and laws that many of the countries must abide by mister v, as for the international court of justice as well. and just how much does the, you know, wolf top court ruling in january that there was a plausible risk of genocide in gaza by israel. how much does that, you know, highlights the need, the strength, the clue for an odds and ball going is what i then could and should we be seeing other cases like the one in the netherlands. i do think so. it highlights the need in, in very stark relief and i'm surprised in fact that the u. s. government has not followed suit or at least to put on the table to israel, the threat of conditioning aid or suspending aid. you know, there's also this issue of israel blocking humanitarian aid that is also not legal according to us laws that,

that governs support to israel. so it is real is blocking humanitarian aid. the us government is supposed to cut off all support to israel. and i think the era drops that you've seen the united states do the building of a porch off the coast of god the these things say very clearly, we know that israel is blocking our aid and that's why we have to take these other extreme measures that are very inefficient and in fact, sometimes dangerous to civilians. yeah, and it's really interesting to know that your memorandum not just mentioned the use of, you know, us weapons on the world, bought israel systematically blocking aid. mr. for new could i want to talk to you about individual responsibility, you know, the us secretaries of state and defense have to determine whether it's rarely assurances of not violation, international or credible and un experts have go on that stage. officials, you know, involved in the export of arms that have been used in close violations of international human, nor can be criminally liable. so, can, you know,

could us officials do you think, be prosecuted at court such as the international criminal court on the universal jurisdiction. so i think it's necessary to distinguish between legal standards and then the enforcement of those stands before in a court or body. so the us itself recognizes that if an individual provides practical assistance that facilitates law more violations, war crimes, the individual can be completed as an aide or to better of war crimes. and us has invoked the standard in the prosecution of contract mohammed for the $911.00 attacks done in guantanamo basis of the standards of the united states government itself is relying upon the question has been, how is that stand ever going to be enforced from you? i think it's likely in the, in the near term that us officials stand trial,

for example, in, in europe under, um, you know, with the universal jurisdiction and the pick or european state. no, i don't think it's likely if i'm, but the traces of the 0 probably over the long term because people have long memories of it comes to a trustee. crimes on the use itself as an engage and trying to build up normally into account ability. so it's to me it's, it's not impossible. i can see that decades the road us officials may have probable if they want to travel to europe. show up. but you think it's a lot likely because of political reasons. it sounds like but legally could they be a case? i think it would depend on the laws that me particular jurisdiction. what the laws are relating to the domestic laws in terms of enforcing the law for i think that it will depend upon their domestic standards on complicity rating and a bedding. and the standards on the bedding is, is somewhat higher at the, at the end of the criminal court than it is under customer natural law. and the lot the us is trying to apply it at guantanamo bay. so it really motiv,

depending on the, the, the laws, the individual states as well as political will, as you indicate, okay, and that's the very is let me bring you in here because mr. fanatic and was talking about, you know, different standards and different quotes. and this has been in court of this israel supplying or different countries supplying israel with weapons has been in the high court of justice in london for example. and the court ruled that the risk of weapons being used in violation of international humanitarian. your wasn't clear enough and so that it couldn't order the u. k. government to stop it's weapons transfers to think the quotes decision is also steps with the information that's available with international consensus. um, but i think uh this, this, almost all of this is all straight case and the metal is what's on the ditch, lowe?

i mean there's a u, v and legislation. but at this implemented in detroit. and so every country can use its own legal system to, to, to respond to the situation. so i'm not sure if it's a national look kind of through the, i mean the to the, to this a different uh, kind of a system and less much less enforceable. but there is, there is a tendency in the policy used to always wants to have one come and stand up for these kind of things. so if we can convince or open countries, this is the stand up for on sex board the audio. okay. countries to confirm to this, okay, mistake and let me bring you in here on what the high court of justice in london will. because the criticism including from your own organization is that the

licenses that the you k use is to transfer weapons to as well are incredibly opaque . i mean, how problematic is that then for, you know, collecting information about what's being transferred and then holding people to account for sure. well, the whole system is, is okay, can the united states has done this as well for the past few months? the invite and administration has fast tracked weapons to israel, and it has also use a threshold. so there is a threshold under which if the weapons are small enough, if the package is small enough, that the binding administration does not actually need to notify congress that these weapons are going. and that, of course, you know, it's legal, but it's an en route and uh and, and run around democracy. and speaking of things that are important but not legal. i think a lot of what we're talking about is the court of public opinion. and of course, many populations around the world are extraordinarily upset with the united states,

and it really has a credibility problem. now, whether or not, you know, these, these legal questions um, fall in its favor. and most of them can, who's at risk of prosecution, you know, has spoken about us officials. but what about the companies themselves? you know, themselves who a manufacturing, whether it's the weapons, ammunition technology, could companies or could individuals within those companies be liable as well? it's not impossible, but like, you know, it would, you just look at the standard set, you know, states up to the united states, to accept it as reflecting the law for, and for aiding and abetting. and again, you also just as the standard use is adopted in the $911.00 trial at the going talking about. but i think it's unlikely, at least in the near term. but again, these norms about accountability are growing. the us is trying to reinforce them in putting, in connection with the russians more and ukraine. and so it's, it's within the role possibility that decades down the road,

not just us officials involved the sole team, arms transfers, the enabled war crimes. but also, you know, personal or officials in companies may also face a potential legal exposure, particularly abroad. and as paperless companies estates a found from the liable if and when this does come in into a course of your, what kind of sentences, what kind of repercussions would we be looking at? so i think we're talking about a few different things here. one are sort of the state, the state litigation that's taking place and for the international court adjusted estimate. and the, the challenge that south africa brought out of the genocide convention was a separate issue about the criminal prosecution of individuals. you know, the individuals not states being criminal, not currently persecuted. you know, i think i think it would depend on the jurisdiction that any charges were brought in. but young judging from past domestic, you know, prosecution including,

you know, under universal jurisdiction, you're looking at potentially decades in prison for serious law, for violations. okay. i mean, that's indeed very serious. if it does come in in front of the course, again, miss debris is since you are in amsterdam and it's, there's no, as we've seen a successful case. what do you say to, you know, all of those when we talk about the court of public opinion, who would like countries like the us, the u. k. gemini from so strategy a and canada to stop funding israel to take the advice of un experts who are calling for an embargo. what can they do as well? i think so they should, but like, you can try other than that, this quite expensive, but you should also continue to, to, to have political actions to protest in front of all factories to protest in front of you, military ministry of. so if i can knock a fast with

a designing audience exports, i think to, to continue political protest of continued to political pressure is actually the right way to do it. because it's of course, a sort of dramatic for democracy that we have to, to go to cards to the oscar governments, to people international humanitarian standards. i mean, comments you do that, but which is the political stations you've decided to keep this kind of okay, we should certainly continue to demonstrate and thinking about the pressure celia i, we played some comments from the uniform policy chief joseph, but i earlier who was saying that if the us is so concerned about the mountain dest, total and gaza, that they should send mess with it. and so i found those comments really interesting, because you and experts have said that, you know, as well as stopping, sending weapons. there was so many other things that you know, policies to the convention on the prevention of genocide can do, you know,

including sanctions. now, joseph bought a can criticize the us sending this to as well. but do you think that the you can also be doing much more in centurylink as well, in other ways? so a think any state or a group of states that is worried about how is real is conducting this campaign in gaza. there are quite a lot of tools in their tool kit, one of which is, of course, sanctioning and does just as a president biden and put out an executive order a few months ago that allows him to sanction some of the violent westbank settlers, including is rarely officials who are inciting that violence and or giving weapons to those westbank settlers. so this is possible all the united states has it, and it's tool kit. i think a lot of other countries have it in their tool kit. the question is when they are going to use it, and i think it's long past time, the stuff in there can do you agree that it's as long pause time?

could we see a change in how much or how severely israel is sanctioned. a look . the outcome here that the us should change the approach to providing weapons and military systems to israel is own, determines over determine because of the u. s. law policy, international law. it's over determine through the obstruction of kind of restrictions upon humanitarian assistance, which is 0 referred to a moment ago and but we're working late. it's over determine because this war has been a catastrophe. 30000 people have been killed. the gaza is facing famine. and this carpet is sparked or original war with us is now directly involved in that included with the who these and human and the red sea. and so the us needs to stop being an arsonist in the situation and quit and drawing more fuel on the fire and try to extinguish it, including by using the leverage that it has with this role and transfers their

significant form of leverage. and let's see, i get, we have some very interesting comments from the senate majority leader chuck schumer, a few days ago talking about the never should the us has with is with and how it should be using more leverage because of how it's conducting this war on gaza, now, many people thought that he could have been hinting at conditioning us military aid . what do you think of that? so for those in the audience who don't know um chuck schumer, this is a remarkable speech by a democrat who has been very close to israel, very close to the supporters of israel here in the united states. i think what it shows is a real shift in how congress, which has responsibility for oversight on arms transfers is thinking about this conflict. and so, yeah, he's, he does have the kind of influence that could put conditioning of weapons on the table to israel as a threat. but of course,

president biden still has not been willing to do that. so he's really the one that needs to be convinced. okay, and mystery is, i want to ask you about something that's happening and answer them because even though the dots court has full that the meta is comp be sending pots of f 355 digits to as well. i read that's the, that's the government is trying to find other ways of doing this. so just, you know, why is it so important then for countries to keep supplying weapons to as well and, and, and how do you really make sure that it happens even if you have a quote for moving in hand. i think you kind of look at the, it's fairly assigned conflicts in isolation. it's part of a broader international poster from industry poster which is fairly so important. and also the certainly option industry is important in the whole net book of international office industry. that for many countries in europe, of course, following the united states is, is

a very important thing. and as long as the united states continues to support a sale. uh, in countries many european countries will also continue to support israel, but also so i also think when mr. brown says we should stop while i'm going israel . why do you opinion then? not saying, okay, we have an office work on this. right? well, i mean, they can do the adapted by what to do to and i think you a pass to really think about his own way and its own policies to follow and not to continue for in united states. because i think we have our own you a funeral to play this winter to the various. thank you very much for that. thank you to all of i guess that is sarah yaga, in washington dc, went into the reason as to them. and bryan center can also in washington dc and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, algio dot com, and prefer the discussion to go to a facebook page that facebook dot com forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. i handle this at

a inside story from me, elizabeth put on him and the whole team here, bye for now. the . and then it all goes to the poles as it holds its delayed presidential election on march 24th after weeks of trouble and protest could be recently free political prisoners propel the opposition to power. stay with alger 0 for the latest updates and in depth analysis. policies in the gaza strip as easily as long last continues. there's a deliberate mission of posting in humanity, in western media. and it needs to be questioned, sustains coverage that actively humanize as, as readings and actively humanizes palestinians. this is not the time for doing

this to kind of wait tracking those stories, examining the journalism and the effect that news coverage can have on democracies everywhere. here at the listing, the best kind of stein is once of very different place from today, most of the cities became connected to the interior in an award winning film, which is 0. well, here's historians and i'd witness accounts that portray early 20th century by this time as a thriving fibers move to the reach of was multiple investments were accessed, moving from one city to another, kind of styling 1920 on al jazeera. now let me tell you about safari valley equal results. the 1st of its kind in west africa. we were surrounded by a wild life. from the moment we entered a coupon. occupied right now able to practice much luck. the now be used only electric very close here, like coming here, sits on with a large stairs face with

a look in my presence for me now. thanks. royal. i can also offer somebody valley equal resort to mean gun the carry jocelyn de la the top stories now on elders here is where the forces of killed thousands of palestinians and an ongoing rate on gauze as long just hospital . hundreds of people have been detained and abused. israel has attacked moving 400 health facilities since the war began. eric assume has more on the attack on i'll see if a hospital from russia and southern guns as a part of the is there any ongoing, valid truth ration that did not till now and in the she felt hospital also they have been at.