and simeon mom she's been to refugee camps near the border and one she won't tolerate violence against the range of. recent airstrikes by the saudi led coalition in yemen are illegal and have killed big numbers of children according to human rights watch it says twenty six children were wrong thirty nine civilians killed in five air strikes in june they died when four homes in a shop were hit. and we can storm continues to cause damage as it moves over the u.s. state of georgia atlanta's main airport canceled hundreds of flights and half of florida is without power meanwhile a piece thirty eight people were killed by a in the caribbean that includes ten people in cuba which was badly battered by high winds and waves of eleven meters. demonstrators are gathering in paris to protest the president emanuel macro's plans to reform the labor laws there france's biggest union that's the c.g. team is observing a day of action but not all unions are taking part of more news on the web site al jazeera dot com tweeting else which you back at peter dhabi one has them is here

top of the hour between now and then is inside story. beating terrorism many countries have made it the core issue in their policies yet armed groups continue to kill and maim thousands of people so is the war on terror failing and what will it take to win that war this is inside story. we're.

either working to the program i'm jane dutton the topic of terrorism has been at the forefront of world politics for years attacks on western soil dominate the news for weeks after the happen and the iraq and syria wars against eisler regularly center stage on our t.v. screens the subject was on the agenda at the recent brics conference in china and will be debated at the upcoming u.n. general assembly this week it's catapulted back into the spotlight for an obvious reason the sixteenth anniversary of nine eleven the september eleventh attacks in the united states in two thousand and one have largely defined u.s. foreign policy since and affected lives throughout the world almost three thousand people were killed when hijackers flew planes into the twin towers of the world trade center in new york and the attacks triggered a series of events including new wars new immigration policies and new prejudices

despite the so-called war on terror the issue hasn't gone away some would argue it's even grown. the group that carried out the nine eleven attacks is still active in yemen parts of syria and northern africa in the middle east in two thousand and fourteen it morphed into this slum extent of iraq and the levant or eisel only recently was it pushed almost entirely out of iraq the group is cornered but still active in syria in nigeria there's haram boko. which opposes any western influence in the country it's kidnapped schoolgirls in nigeria and also attacked villages in neighboring countries and there's been a rise in far right extremism in europe and the united states the recent violence in charlottesville virginia an example of how white supremacy groups have gained support nine eleven was the deadliest single attack in u.s. history but there have been others across the globe which also left a mark hundred ninety two people were killed in the madrid train bombings in spain

in two thousand and four those responsible were believed to have been inspired by al qaeda fifty two people died in the london bombings in july two thousand and five known as seven seven a coordinated attack on three trains and a bus during morning rush hour in the u.k. capital the mumba terror attacks in two thousand and eight killed one hundred sixty four people ten pakistani gunmen rampage through hotels restaurants and other buildings in the indian city in two thousand and fourteen members of the taliban stormed a school in push are in pakistan of the one hundred forty one people who died most were students and just last month in barcelona a man drove his van through a crowded ters street known as lost from last killing fourteen and injuring dozens so how has terrorism changed after nine eleven to tell us more we're joined by max abrams assistant professor of political science northeastern university in boston

from beirut via skype joseph kitchen senior fellow at the king faisal center in riyadh jim walsh senior research associate with mit security studies program he's also in boston a very warm welcome to the show every one of you jim walsh how crucial was nine eleven to the security or lack of security we seeing today. well i think it certainly for the u.s. government has fundamentally framed virtually everything going forward it was one of the most traumatic events in post-war u.s. history obviously it led directly to the invasion of afghanistan and then later indirectly to the invasion of iraq so it's really meant a great deal both emotionally but also politically and in terms of foreign policy it has been the shaping event for us foreign policy and joseph kitchen to think the world would be a different place if nine eleven hadn't happened or would be issues these groups

come to fruition anyway something else might have occurred in another country doesn't necessarily have to have been do not have states i think that obviously got a result has been with us for a long time the likelihood of it to end anytime soon is into the detestable. this is the scourge of the twentieth century in the twenty first century i'm going to have to learn with it to learn how to live with it for the rest of our lives governments have got to really get their act together by trying to end all kinds of support to extremist something which will but he will talk about in the few seconds max abrams what would you say the state of the terrorist threat is today and quite frankly has safe always. well i think that it's actually has gotten a little bit better over the past few months we've made substantial progress

against islamic state i don't think that that's getting enough attention particularly in iraq and in syria what we've shown is that the idea of the caliphate is dead now that doesn't mean that the islamic state threat ceases altogether you know they'll be idiots all over the world who will continue to be inspired however the recruitment rate overall is down precisely because their political goals have been crushed and so i do think that we're doing a little bit better than we were a couple months ago but terrorism is still very much at the forefront of our security concerns but hasn't the fight against isis and i select some from the members of it morphed into something different we seen these lone wolf attacks in seventy different parts of the world we we seeing a rise of eisel in the philippines for example yeah i mean there's no

question that the terrorism threat is evolving it's metastasizing what i was saying though is that in the aggregate as a security threat i'd rather have the organization implode than not implode even if there is say short term spike in more sort of decentralized violence so we do need to you know worry about this but i do think that we made substantial you know gains against islamic state which will make us safer not just destroy the caliphate jim you seem to agree with that. yes i mean i think max is absolutely right to say that what's happening to isis has not received the attention it deserves and that they have suffered setbacks and in particular with the caliphate looking like that's not going to happen recruitment is down i think that's all to the good and i think max would also agree that what's going to happen and we've seen this already from isis is that they're going to evolve into a more traditional if you will terror group where the emphasis won't be on taking

and holding territory which is what it has been which was their great innovation as it were but rather sort of traditional attacks we saw this in co body when the kurds kicked. out of co bonnie what did they do they responded with a truck bomb and then elsewhere in iraq and around one slave last territory they've moved to terror acts so i do think i think max is absolutely right the key is hurting these organizations so that they are not capable of carrying out larger mass casualty attacks but in the near term i do expect an increase in terrorism traditional terrorism from isis as they disintegrate and just have to think they might be an increase as jim was saying made because of or despite american foreign policy. well you know this is a very emotional day obviously of where americans and we feel a great deal for the loss that occurred all sixteen seventeen years ago sixteen years ago but i think that it's a mistake to actually concentrate on terrorism and its nomic variety just

a few months ago in june if i'm not mistaken there was this one doctor in the bronx hospital that machine gun several of his colleagues it is true that we have to deal with it by cell and it's red meat be cations through up the muslim world and the primary targets of these terrorists are in fact fellow muslims who will if there are it's are not proper proper muslims however for the united states and other western powers to do more effectively with the kind of scourges that they have to deal with i think it's time long overdue really it's time to really reappraise the foreign policy approaches that a lot of these countries have pursued over the years that me just give you a simple example of how easy it has been for these european terrorists french native born or belgian need to or more of

a european need to want terrorists to go in and out of turkey as it was a. frequent flyer program going back and forth all of these governments have big direct responsibility to make sure that the extremists in their societies are handled and warning importantly that these governments and these societies address the integration problems that has led to these individuals but when haywire in committing these acts russia's acts of terrorism so that war it's not just a question of one country's foreign policy or be another one it's a question of the global approach the time is long overdue for all these governments to end their selective support. extremist groups ok jim i'm wondering where that puts saudi arabia into this discussion considering you know fifteen of those involved in the attacks were from saudi arabia. where are

they when it comes to dealing with the terrorism threat that we have seen proliferate for years now you know you know when it comes to saudi arabian terrorism and i think that's the two countries you really want to focus on frankly are pakistan and saudi arabia with the fact that the project manager is enjoying arabia i don't think that's a big deal. he worked very closely together pakistan saudi arabia. yes well i would say and i would say they both have their own sort of individual problems and you reference them by attack that almost led to a war between india and pakistan and pakistan has long supported in a number of extremists but that's a separate topic to to answer your question about saudi arabia you know the fact that they that the attackers were for some saudi arabia it was not a big deal to me what is a big deal is that saudi arabia for its own reasons to try to maintain its own legitimacy as a country has basically allowed idiology extremist ideology in the form of one hop

as them to flourish and has been an exporter has been a funder has been in general cheerleader for a idiology that has over time come to be the root. a set of beliefs that many who are extremists. believe in so i think you know i think saudi arabia had a pretty bad bad record and in syria we would have to agree that saudi arabia encoder and other countries funded anti syrian forces and of course assad's a war criminal don't get me wrong but funded extremists and used them as proxies so that continues on i will say that in some ways saudi arabia is better than it was pre nine eleven and has been a better counterterrorism partner with the united states more information sharing more operations a lot of that had to do with the crown prince who was recently replaced and we'll see where that goes under the new leadership in saudi arabia but i would say in the past saudi arabia was terrible on this issue and i would say it's gotten better but

we still have to deal with the the problem of them supporting individuals in saudi arabia supporting a real set of religious beliefs that stoke this sort of this sort of violence max if if it is true that it is continuing to exploit terrorism under the guise of wahhabi islam how should saadi rabia be dealt with that the man on a you trying to step in there and what units relationship be with the u.s. and the u.k. for example we'll get on to two he's a man a moment. i mean you know i agree with jim in the sense that there's plenty of blame to go around what what's upsetting beyond just the anniversary of nine eleven is that the direction of the world in terms of our overall collective response to terrorism hasn't been very smart i think that we're actually contributing to the problems in afghanistan we really don't have an answer there in iraq you

know which jim called it in in direct response maybe it was a direct response without nine eleven it wouldn't have happened removing saddam hussein obviously created power vacuum helping al qaeda to metastasize into iraq and then i.s.i. and then and then into isis the removal of could awfully i think contributed to instability in the region feeding arms and in personnel into the syrian conflict the support of islamic militants in order to spearhead regime change has also backfired to us i mean if you know you know if you have a portion of that may have made it is you have to drive them away from the negotiating table might they say what's the point of going to the negotiating table if you keep funding us is that a knock on effect where where where where are we talking about in general i'm not in favor of negotiating with you know the kinds of actors that i'm talking about

joseph when it comes to the u.s. foreign policy i mean going in and just bombing a country. it changing the state of play affecting the sovereignty that hasn't helped in the war on terror has it. it has not but before i answer your question this is really important and iran must really stress this i mean we are we are throwing so many things around that one has to be very careful about the assessment saudi arabia the fifteen of the nineteen allege of hijackers that have that have died in the process are in fact saudis no one is denying that but so how could it be either in the past couple of years has arrested over five hundred individuals and tried to rehabilitate several thousand others there is a decision in saudi arabia to actually go after the six cream ists would have been germans and the saudi armed forces and the security personnel have paid a very high price for this so it's very sad joseph do you think there's an i pad so

i say can i just quickly say this and how this this report that saudi arabia allegedly funded a dry run for the nine eleven i mean do you think this will undermine what saudi arabia is trying to do i've seen the report as well today in the new york post that claims in fact that there was a dry run of course this is an allegation it needs to be proven in a court of law and presumably this is part of the just the trials that are being prepared right now with the attorneys putting forward all the evidence that big and it's up to the courts to decide whether or not in fact there was such dry runs but i think the more important question that we have to think about is the responsibility that all governments must assume and to answer specifically were question about the fact that the united states foreign policy is has been very selective obviously you don't. max said if i'm not mistaken earlier that in fact united states as a consequence of nine eleven attacked iraq as well coniston first and iraq iraq had

nothing to do with nine eleven despite all of the lies that we have heard over the owner of from weapons of mass destruction assassination nothing to do with nine eleven absolutely nothing. and that's why i said the word indirectly in other words obviously saddam hussein. nothing to do with al qaeda and iraq in all of that other business but what i think president bush did however was take a emotionally fragile united states and took the political opportunity to invade iraq based on sort of the aftermath of nine eleven so i would say it was indirectly tied that nine eleven sort of created a political space that allowed president bush to then go off on to this completely different adventure in iraq so they're related but they're not they're not related in direct substance going into iraq after nine eleven was a horrendous move and we're still dealing with those repr cautions what i was

saying at all is that in the absence of nine eleven we wouldn't have gone into iraq but there's a very good article by a scholar name call him kaufman which shows the bump in u.s. support for going into iraq pre and post nine eleven and so in that sense nine eleven had a direct effect but it was very unfortunate because of course iraq was not responsible for those terrorist attacks ok so here we are today whatever impact nine eleven has had you all agree that governments need to do they bit to put a stop to this rise in terrorism that we think how do governments do they have bait jason i mean should they be great attention to the grass root level problems that we are seeing in a lot of these country. governments can do a great deal there are a large group responsible for the rise of extremism that's not to grow on trees

essentially policies lead individuals whom i will not call crazies individuals who actually take extremist measures in order to rectify rooms the way they perceive it and in fragile societies throughout world not just the muslim world but grow up the world we are seeing that governments are abdicated their responsibility keys to come to terms with the fundamental changes in the societies you have injustices you have poverty you have lack of resources you have lack of education all of these decisions together it must be must be taken into account as well as the governments must come to the table and shared the kind of information that they had it in those instances where there are extremists who commit acts of violence no doubt about the fact that this should be tried in a court of law and punished according to jim what about the knock on effect again

of this war on terror are we seeing a dramatic increase in refugees this is angered many a ticket many in the far right of the countries that have been most affected how do you deal with those troublemakers in the far right charlottesville for example well i'm a first of all i would say let's let's be careful about our categories i am you know opposed to white supremacists and the violence that they've committed. but we want to distinguish between i think as we step back and we sort of look at where things are there we've had some successes and the successes have been in stopping mass casualty attacks we have not had another nine eleven and we have better coordination and better information collection and law enforcement and counterterrorism organizations do a better job on the menu not on time and now they are not in the u.s. but it's not i'm not adjusting you know and picking at it yes yes yes well i was going to say there's another half to this story and that is that. you know when

individuals act out lone wolves inspired by racial hatred or. religious extremism or for whatever reason that's very hard for law enforcement to deal with and it doesn't mean we're losing just because individuals strike out on their own but i do all want to point out that as we weigh that whether we've been successful or whether we failed we also have to talk about the new costs that are our actions have been costly and we have to put that on the ledger as well so the u.s. has set up a gigantic and very expensive but i would underline gigantic secret information collection system and has engaged in domestic surveillance and we have terry ans in other countries who claim who will accuse their opposition of label them as simply being terrorists now anyone who opposes a government is called a terrorist it whether they're violent or not and so i think this effort and i

never like the phrase war on terrorism i think that's a real misnomer but this effort to counter extremism has been successful in stopping big big big attacks has been successful after going after major organizations al qaeda central and now seoul has been less good and understandably so because it's just a tough nut to crack at dealing with sort of lower level attacks that are awful nevertheless but they're not the same. it's not eleven but in doing this we've also paid a very high price and also we have to recognize that as we've seen in syria the governments and joseph alludes to this continue to use their favorite extremists as proxies for their own foreign policy goals so you know whether that's pakistan using extremists in kashmir or the u.s. and saudi arabia using extremists in syria to fight the assad government so we've made improvements we paid

a big cost but some of these practices continue there are still governments there are it's serious terrorists that that want to hear is a motera whatever you want to call it it's on these groups needs to be looked at again and i'm just wondering jim with that as i mix with the united nations general assembly coming up looming donald trump is going to make his first speech there if we are likely to see any change at these america first are we likely to see diplomacy taking a role of a military option possibly. i mean i agree with the gist of that of the other guests and that is that the world really is not coalescing together to focus on the terrorism threat it still seems as if there are good terrorists and bad terrorists depending on the geo political aims of the group in which proxies can be used in this is very unfortunate behavior in terms of what i expect the future of terrorism

to look like if you will i think we're going to see more of the same i think we're going to see a continuation of a de centralization of the terrorism threat i think that there's a less tolerance for groups to build up strongholds i think that it lib is going to get attacked soon i think well hopefully but i i also expect h.t.s. to get broken up with the rise in communications and just you know growing globalisation and social media platforms i think that the lone wolf problem is here to stay and i think that that we really don't have an answer and it will change the nature of the kind of terrorism that we're you know that we're facing not so much the mass casualty attacks but still pretty big ones like i wanted to really handle sharing seeable. but sadly we're going to have to leave it there max abrams james have kitchen and jim walsh thank you very much and thank you for watching you can

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